Man Vs Black belt Woman?

Corcioch · 11-09-2010 7:18pm

HellsAngel wrote: »

So what TKD club where you supposed to be in ?

Ah yes Krav Maga, now that's the real deal...." There is probably no other Martial Art system in the world more street and battle-tested than Krav Maga........ earn to protect yourself with the devastating Self Defence and hand to hand combat skills used by the Israeli Special Force......all in just a few easy lessons for the cost of $$$$$$ " Blah, blah, blah, :pac:

Take 2 good strong agressive individuals, fairly equal . . . .send one off to train at Krav Maga . . .send the other off to Mauy Thai . . . . .after a year or two of hard training I know who my money would be on.

I wasn't supposed to be in any TKD club . . . . I trained in 2 different clubs over about 5 years, my last club was run by 7th Degree Black Belt . . if your into that sort of thing ( BTW, I have nothing but respect for that particular individual, a very capable and powerful practitioner )

I trained and competed in ITF Tae Kwon Do, took part in many competitions and intervarsities and did quite well. That was about 10 years ago now. TKD was good fun and an enjoyable activity or sport but thats it imo

I left TKD to go to Judo . . .a far more effective discipline.

I am 8 or 9 years working in an area that regularly brings me into physical conflict with all sorts of persons, be they violent drunks or armed thugs . . .

I will say without fear of contradiction that compared to Judo all I learned in TKD is stone useless in almost all if not all of these situations I have encountered.

And I most certainly knew of Balck Belts who could not effectively kick above their waists . . . Black Belts you could easily get the better of in sparring.

Belts:rolleyes: . . . .do a few patterns at gradings and you get belts . . . .if belts make folks feel better about themselves grand . . . but thats about all they do really imo.

opinion guy · 11-09-2010 7:23pm

Corcioch wrote: »

Belts:rolleyes: . . . .do a few patterns at gradings and you get belts . . . .if belts make folks feel better about themselves grand . . . but thats about all they do really imo.

Completely agree with this!

Zen65 · 11-09-2010 8:28pm

yomchi wrote: »

You could train all day long and still be pulled inside out by lads who have honed their skills by just being born in a particular area, scrapping just comes easy to some people, you can have a 100 black belts and you'd still be mangled.

I think this sums up the collective wisdom on the matter very succinctly.

The test of a black belt, male or female, is not whether their skill guarantees them a victory in a battle against an untrained attacker, but rather whether the black belt (man or woman) would be guaranteed to be able to beat themselves with the skill they had as a beginner. Such a match is impossible to arrange, at least until time machines become commercially available, so the best available test for a black belt grading is to test them against a series of defined exercises (basic techniques, partner work fighting sequences, kata or forms, and sparring).

The original meaning of "Black Belt" was simply somebody who knew their basics. From that, true fighting/combat ability develops only by practising (including sparring) and developing the mental focus to transfer the art to the combat field. Western culture conferred unwarranted mysticism on the black belt and so often people confuse being a "Black Belt" with being an "Expert".

Like Yomchi says, attaching more importance to the Black Belt than to the individual's ability is a recipe for disaster. For this reason I would humbly suggest the woman that the OP spoke about is deluding herself, for which I think the blame lies with her instructor.

Be at peace,

Z

joeyhehir · 12-09-2010 7:56pm

Girls can fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivKYP6F1_UM

joeyhehir · 13-09-2010 1:20pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lopzw1H6m8U&feature=related

humanpunchbag · 13-09-2010 10:07pm

Trained girl vs. completely untrained guy?

Consider the many many variables.

In my opinion, you have to factor in whether either of these people are natural fighters, belt or no belt, the natural fighter (think Forrest Griffin, not the best fighter in the world, but he won't stop until he is made to) is most likely going to win.

HellsAngel · 14-09-2010 3:49pm

Corcioch wrote: »

I wasn't supposed to be in any TKD club . . . . I trained in 2 different clubs over about 5 years, my last club was run by 7th Degree Black Belt . . if your into that sort of thing ( BTW, I have nothing but respect for that particular individual, a very capable and powerful practitioner )

I trained and competed in ITF Tae Kwon Do, took part in many competitions and intervarsities and did quite well. That was about 10 years ago now. TKD was good fun and an enjoyable activity or sport but thats it imo

I left TKD to go to Judo . . .a far more effective discipline.

I am 8 or 9 years working in an area that regularly brings me into physical conflict with all sorts of persons, be they violent drunks or armed thugs . . .

I will say without fear of contradiction that compared to Judo all I learned in TKD is stone useless in almost all if not all of these situations I have encountered.

And I most certainly knew of Balck Belts who could not effectively kick above their waists . . . Black Belts you could easily get the better of in sparring.

Belts:rolleyes: . . . .do a few patterns at gradings and you get belts . . . .if belts make folks feel better about themselves grand . . . but thats about all they do really imo.

Tell you what, well just agree to differ. My experiences have been different to yours and we'll leave it at that.

HellsAngel · 14-09-2010 3:52pm

Here is a nasty TKD woman !!!! Ouccccch :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBMJtnrqiTg&feature=related

Niall Keane · 16-09-2010 3:04pm

My wife sent a handbag bandit to the pavement outside the Abbey Theatre recently using a Nei Jia technique "Step back and strike the Tiger", and in Paris some years back used "Fan through the Back" before my eyes to strike a would be mugger to the ground, I was tied up deciphering a map at the time.
Then again she's the only human I fear on Earth.

yomchi · 16-09-2010 3:07pm

Niall Keane wrote: »

My wife sent a handbag bandit to the pavement outside the Abbey Theatre recently using a Nei Jia technique "Step back and strike the Tiger", and in Paris some years back used "Fan through the Back" before my eyes to strike a would be mugger to the ground, I was tied up deciphering a map at the time.
Then again she's the only human I fear on Earth.

You guys should be done for cruelty to animals

getz · 16-09-2010 3:27pm

yomchi wrote: »

Nope. It's the persons ability to perform under pressure that wins, ie - mindset.

Mindset equates to confidence and experience. That's why a guy who has served his time in real combat sports and has tested his ability under pressure is always going to have a better chance to prevail. Anyone that hasn't experienced a live match with full contact or a real street scrap will inevitably lose all skill and speed out their arse hole as they get a dose of adrenalin pumped through them. Skill is far from the most important aspect, if you read my previous post I gave an experience of witnessing a one sided beating on a guy, none of it was skill it was just caveman like. Ug kill target, ug hungry, ug need eat.

These guys had no skill, just brutal determination...

Again, woods that way ->

i teach most of my classes to fight by instinct,block and strike,even a wasp can bring down a grown man,if it stings in the right place

Niall Keane · 16-09-2010 3:54pm

Cheng Tin Hung used to use the metaphor of a bull and trying to control him with "Li" brute strength as opposed to "Jin" trained force where you use a ring in his nose to lead him.

yomchi · 17-09-2010 7:53am

getz wrote: »

i teach most of my classes to fight by instinct,block and strike,even a wasp can bring down a grown man,if it stings in the right place

The problem with that is that blocking doesn't work, action will beat reaction every time. Add to that, blocking in only practiced from one range, predominantly the range handiest for blocking! Think about the time it takes to position the arms to react to strike when you have milliseconds to decide what side the strike is coming from,what trajectory, is there a weapon in the striking and many other variables associated with reality renders blocking futile, completely. Pressure test your students to block a non compliant strike and see what comes out.

antybots · 17-09-2010 1:42pm

yomchi wrote: »

Pressure test your students to block a non compliant strike and see what comes out.

We did that recently and what came out was the following:

1) Most students managed to block a punch to the head but got clocked when the attacker threw a series of punches. This is because instead of moving out of range, the students stayed to block and weren't quick enough to block three or four punches thrown with venom and at speed.
2) Almost no one could block a kick properly, and those that did wish they hadn't as the blocking tool got hurt.
3) The students who blocked didn't counter strike very well as they were trying to anticipate what and how to block instead of pre-empting the strike in the first place.

We then tried the same scenario with students free to move about and this time most students managed to avoid or deflect the attacks and were able to put together a good offense.

So either
a) we are crap at teaching blocking
b) our students are crap at blocking
c) blocking is overrated.

I'm going with option C

yomchi · 17-09-2010 2:12pm

C- Bingo!

Zen65 · 17-09-2010 11:05pm

antybots wrote: »

So either
a) we are crap at teaching blocking
b) our students are crap at blocking
c) blocking is overrated.

I'm saying (c).

In many martial arts, once you pass black belt, there is less emphasis on blocking, and more on body evasion / timing or absorbing & counter-acting. It's simply impractical to expect to be able to block a flurry attack.

As for kicking, I'll always prefer body evasion to a block; if I must block it would have to be by going forward and smothering the attack, or going back and pulling the leg back with me.

Z

Jayo_M · 18-09-2010 1:40am

Isn't it obvious that not being hit (dodging/evading) is better than being hit (blocking)? Surely blocking is only to be used when you can't evade?

Doug Cartel · 18-09-2010 9:37am

Jayo_M wrote: »

Isn't it obvious that not being hit (dodging/evading) is better than being hit (blocking)? Surely blocking is only to be used when you can't evade?

I think they're talking about the big dramatic blocks like you find in TKD and karate, where you might be taught to do a rising block that ends with your forearm above your head, and follow up with a reverse punch. As opposed to the more realistic cover-and-counterpunch you'd get in boxing or muay Thai.

getz · 18-09-2010 9:59am

Jayo_M wrote: »

Isn't it obvious that not being hit (dodging/evading) is better than being hit (blocking)? Surely blocking is only to be used when you can't evade?

you are missing the point,blocking in trad japanese martial arts is very important,the block is a powerful defence,the blocking of a arm or kick can do your opponent a lot of damage,you can brake his arm or even knee joint,if you use enough power, i belive a good block alone can finish the fight,thats the difference between sport and the traditional art

Doug Cartel · 18-09-2010 10:06am

getz wrote: »

i belive a good block alone can finish the fight,thats the difference between sport and the traditional art

What are you basing this belief on?

Also muay Thai has hard blocks designed to hurt the opponent, and it's a sport.

opinion guy · 18-09-2010 10:10am

getz wrote: »

you are missing the point,blocking in trad japanese martial arts is very important,the block is a powerful defence,the blocking of a arm or kick can do your opponent a lot of damage,you can brake his arm or even knee joint,if you use enough power, i belive a good block alone can finish the fight,thats the difference between sport and the traditional art

Yeah but didn't those samurai types wear a bunch of armour when doing their blocks in actual combat ? IT a little different if you are wearing armour

Chris89 · 18-09-2010 11:05am

I find that twirling someones wrist and making them do 9 flips to be much more effective than blocking.

getz · 18-09-2010 11:07am

opinion guy wrote: »

Yeah but didn't those samurai types wear a bunch of armour when doing their blocks in actual combat ? IT a little different if you are wearing armour

this is where it all get very interesting,in japanese maritial arts the art of breaking wood was based on being able to punch/kick/block through the wooden/leather armour the opponent would have on,the art itself first came from okinawa,and was used against the japanese invaders,as did the art of jump kicks that was used to kick the enemy off his horse,

getz · 18-09-2010 11:44am

Chris89 wrote: »

I find that twirling someones wrist and making them do 9 flips to be much more effective than blocking.

cris remember when these japanese arts were first put together by the okinawans, they were not alowed to carry weapons,the ruling samurai would be on horse and have bows and swords,so the locals would have to use local working tools to defend themselves ,say for beating rice or conch shells,and their hands and feetas weapons,when i first started in shotokan,[in the early 60s] both my teachers were japanese,and they trained us in the trad way[i would not be allowed today to teach my classes today that same way] we never had mits or shin guards,and we used to punch and kick against solid brick walls,untill your hands would bleed,you would end up with a thick skin on your knuckles, after a time we would be able to punch and kick very hard without to much damage to ourselves,sport karate was hardly done,we used to spar,but only with light contact,

opinion guy · 18-09-2010 11:48am

Chris89 wrote: »

I find that twirling someones wrist and making them do 9 flips to be much more effective than blocking.

Funny. But if you watch any high level aikido you'll see tis all about body position and control evasion - the wrist thing is an optional extra - many moves don't even use the hands. Sort of like what these other guys have just been saying is a better alternative to blocking

getz · 18-09-2010 12:06pm

opinion guy wrote: »

Funny. But if you watch any high level aikido you'll see tis all about body position and control evasion - the wrist thing is an optional extra - many moves don't even use the hands. Sort of like what these other guys have just been saying is a better alternative to blocking

aikido and judo came from the parent style jujitsu a more complete style,shotokan karate took over in japan when a early emperors son asked a okinawa master to teach him karate ,the same master who helped jukano to form judo style,[my heads full of this sh..te]

yomchi · 18-09-2010 10:01pm

It's all moot folks, you can dress it up anyway you like. Blocking doesn't work and in fact it forces the practitioner to only focus on one attacker in a very non functional manner. I'm not having a go here, I just came to this conclusion after near on 18 years of Taekwon-Do when someone said to me.. Mackey, blocking doesn't work, I pressure tested it and in various scenarios it didn't work.

Pressure test it, really do, and then have the courage of your conviction as a martial artist to say - It doesn't really work.

Dyr · 19-09-2010 10:41am

getz wrote: »

this is where it all get very interesting,in japanese maritial arts the art of breaking wood was based on being able to punch/kick/block through the wooden/leather armour the opponent would have on,the art itself first came from okinawa,and was used against the japanese invaders,as did the art of jump kicks that was used to kick the enemy off his horse,

Say what now?:eek:

arybvtcw0eolkf · 19-09-2010 11:35am

Bambi wrote: »

Say what now?:eek:

Give it over and have a bit of respect for the man.

If you don't agree, discuss it. Don't mock.

Barry.Oglesby · 20-09-2010 11:05am

yomchi wrote: »

It's all moot folks, you can dress it up anyway you like. Blocking doesn't work and in fact it forces the practitioner to only focus on one attacker in a very non functional manner. I'm not having a go here, I just came to this conclusion after near on 18 years of Taekwon-Do when someone said to me.. Mackey, blocking doesn't work, I pressure tested it and in various scenarios it didn't work.

Pressure test it, really do, and then have the courage of your conviction as a martial artist to say - It doesn't really work.

I disagree. I'm not a bad fighter, I've done a bit. But when I spar my mate he can block pretty much 90% of what I try to do be it leg kicks, left hooks, teeps. In fact the more Muay Thai I do, the more I realise it's about the checking and blocking and counterstriking.

Man Vs Black belt Woman?

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