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Metro West Route Options

245

Comments

  • #32
    Enigma365
    Registered Users Posts: 245 ✭✭Enigma365


    All bar one of the lines on the London Underground travel into "Central London", either the City or the West End. Interchanges are by and large in Central London. This is an arrangement which seems to work well, as that's where most people are headed. A basic arrangement replicated all over the world in cities which are larger and smaller than London.

    That isn't a great point, considering that Transport For London, are setting up the "London Overground" system next year to providwe an orbital rail route and to counter the problem, as they see it, of all lines going through central London.

    http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-centre/press-releases/press-releases-content.asp?prID=886


  • #33
    OTK
    Closed Accounts Posts: 556 ✭✭✭OTK


    Have to agree with strassenwolf. The demand for public transport between blanchardstown and tallaght seems low at the moment compared to the demand for public transport between any two disconnected Dublin suburbs within the M50. Is there even a bus service along this route? How often does it run if at all?

    The argument that much of the route would run through open countryside sounds like a WRC argument.

    I used to live near the North London Line, an orbital, grade-separated heavy rail commuter service, serving suburbs around 6-8km from London city centre. I hardly ever used it. It could only support 4 trains an hour and why would anyone want to travel from say Camden Road to Kensal Rise? Most times it was quicker to take a high frequency tube into town and change to another back out to the destination. Thats what edge suburbs need: quick ways to reach central hubs.

    They can stick all the high density apartments they like around the stations but where will those people want to go in a hurry? A shopping mall 15km away with all the same outlets as the one 1km away?

    As this goes ahead, I'd like to see it done with a PPP, with the builder relying on future fare revenue. That way, it will never get built.


  • #34
    Slice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,133 ✭✭✭Slice


    OTK: I used to live near the North London Line, an orbital, grade-separated heavy rail commuter service, serving suburbs around 6-8km from London city centre. I hardly ever used it.

    Yes I've lived near this line also and have had first hand experience of it - it's probably the best working example of why Metro West is an inferior concept compared to a line feeding into the city centre. I suppose justification of Metro West would mean justification for the WRC towards Sligo :D

    What I anticipate with Metro West (and irrespective of what's being touted now) is that services would be infrequent at off-peak times.

    If there was really such a huge demand at present why is public transport so limited at the moment??


  • #35
    aliveandkicking
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 961 ✭✭✭aliveandkicking


    Slice wrote:
    As far as I'm aware there's been no discussion of the merits of Metro West before in this forum, and when compared to say Metro North there seems to be little consensus on it really.

    I would say there's no argument about connecting Lucan, Clondalkin and Blanchardstown with some form of public transport but could the red-line spur not have been used to serve this function in some shape or form?

    Also, why is Metro West being touted as metro when it's evidently more tram??

    It was discussed before, in fact my first post in this thread was just a copy and paste of what I said in the previous thread here

    What I meant when I said "now to the real point of this thread" was theres little point in us arguing over the merits of it because the decision is already made to build it, it's been announced and funding committed to it so the only thing worth discussing is which is the best route to build and should we be pushing the RPA to put some of it underground in locations such as Clondalkin Village and Blanchardstown and not to be stupid enough to cross the Naas Road at grade with traffic lights.


  • #36
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    OTK wrote:
    Is there even a bus service along this route? How often does it run if at all?
    Yes, the 76A. Not a great frequency, is it? I used to use it nonetheless a nd it is a tortuous circuitous route that zig-zags all across West Dublin-hardly a fair comparison with a frequent and direct north-south service, as proposed.
    OTK wrote:
    The argument that much of the route would run through open countryside sounds like a WRC argument.
    Except the land beside the WRC will never be built upon and te land beside metroWest is already being built upon with high density housing.
    OTK wrote:
    I used to live near the North London Line, an orbital, grade-separated heavy rail commuter service, serving suburbs around 6-8km from London city centre. I hardly ever used it. It could only support 4 trains an hour and why would anyone want to travel from say Camden Road to Kensal Rise? Most times it was quicker to take a high frequency tube into town and change to another back out to the destination. Thats what edge suburbs need: quick ways to reach central hubs.
    And I live in D15 and work in Lucan-I'd have to take a DART from Clonsilla to Pearse, then change for DART to Kishogue, or just get a tram across the Liffey to work in a few minutes. As it is I use 2 wheels cos a car would be insanity on the clogged roads of West Dublin.
    OTK wrote:
    They can stick all the high density apartments they like around the stations but where will those people want to go in a hurry? A shopping mall 15km away with all the same outlets as the one 1km away?
    Ok, so you've completely ignored the vast amount of industry (as well as the largest employer in Fingal-the airport) along the M50 corridor, nevermind 2 of Ireland's largest hospitals and 2 institutes of technology. Also-these shopping malls are large employers-retail is labour intensive.

    You know, for once, we appear to be at least partially building the infrastructure required to make people's lives less of a misery in advance of the housing, and people seem oppsed to it. Isn't that the current problem with the likes of Lucan-plenty of houses-no infrastructure.


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  • #37
    Ste.phen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,808 ✭✭✭Ste.phen


    Surely an orbital (underground) metro, not too far inside the M50, intersected with spurs of metro/luas/DART/heavy rail would be ideal?

    Something like the M50's relationship with the M1/N2/N3/M4, etc, but with rail lines?

    It'd mean passengers from the suburbs wanting to go direct to city centre can do so, but can also change to an orbital route, then onto any other direct route if they're heading out of the city?

    Maybe a direct orbital route isn't the answer, but i think some sort of line which meets up with multiple other forms of rail/luas at various points can only be a good thing (TM)


  • #38
    Ste.phen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,808 ✭✭✭Ste.phen


    I;ve just realised that the interconnector provides a sort of close-to-city orbital route, but i was thinking of something a little further out, and more of a complete loop


  • #39
    OTK
    Closed Accounts Posts: 556 ✭✭✭OTK


    murphaph wrote:
    Isn't that the current problem with the likes of Lucan-plenty of houses-no infrastructure.
    No, the problem with Lucan is that housing for 33,500 people was built on 2,000 hectares, so you have a density of 17/hectare (7/acre) which cannot support public transport other than p&r radial. Every man woman and dog has a car in Lucan, and the next billion spent on the M50 will allow more of them to fit on to this artery whenever they need to get to the neighbouring suburb.

    Adamstown is going to fit 25,000 people into 220 hectares; a density of 114/hectare or 45/acre and their houses will have the same value or more than the spaced out estates around them. Lucan is a giant waste of space. We haven't learnt anything because we are building mini Lucans outside every town in the country.


  • #40
    mackerski
    Registered Users Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭mackerski


    There seems to be a lot of daft comment on this thread from people who usually seem to know better. There seems to be something imprinted on the Dublin psyche that says that a transport route is only useful if you can complete an entire journey on it without changing. Seen this way, Metro West has some appear but is certainly not compelling. But consider a person needing to get from the following parts of west Dublin to just about anywhere else:

    * N Blanch industrial estates
    * Any part of Clondalkin
    * Most of Lucan
    * Tallaght, in spite of the sightseeing red line

    For clarity, let's assume the end destination isn't even on Metro West. It might be:

    * Anywhere on the red line
    * Anywhere on the Maynooth, Kildare or Drogheda heavy lines
    * Anywhere on a bus route intersecting the MW
    * Absolutely anywhere else not viable from a bus route directly serving the point of origin.

    Any such journey will be transformed by MW and very few of them will require the passenger to traverse the city centre - two Good Things(tm).

    You could provide some or all of these benefits with a different approach, but probably not for the cost of some cheap track over quite a bit of open country.

    The point about circular routes on the London underground is also a bit off. London does have a circle line (in fact, it was their earliest underground line, built for the same reason as our interconnector). To be fair, part of it does traverse "The City", but at the time of its construction, linking the mainline railways was a strategic way of getting transit traffic out of the city centre.

    Today, of course, the entire zone inside the circle line is criss-crossed by more direct routes, so you'd be unlikely to travel 180-degress on it, but I fear that Dublin is some way off from that.

    Dermot


  • #41
    jjbrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,678 ✭✭✭jjbrien


    what a silly line go north towords the airport to go south west to blanch and then south to tallagt via quarryvale this line is complet rubish it would be better to upgrade the arrow to maynooth and have branches off that to the diffent places it needs to go. i must attend this meeting.


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  • #42
    mackerski
    Registered Users Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭mackerski


    jjbrien wrote:
    what a silly line go north towords the airport to go south west to blanch and then south to tallagt via quarryvale this line is complet rubish it would be better to upgrade the arrow to maynooth and have branches off that to the diffent places it needs to go. i must attend this meeting.

    Faced with such compelling logic I'm sure the crowd will see the wisdom of your proposal.

    Dermot


  • #43
    jjbrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,678 ✭✭✭jjbrien


    mackerski wrote:
    Faced with such compelling logic I'm sure the crowd will see the wisdom of your proposal.

    Dermot
    more likly they wont they live in cloud coko land


  • #44
    aliveandkicking
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 961 ✭✭✭aliveandkicking


    jjbrien wrote:
    it would be better to upgrade the arrow to maynooth and have branches off that to the diffent places it needs to go.

    Now that is a really silly idea. Just where do you propose all the trains from your new branches will go? Connolly is already overcrowded and Docklands will be full of trains from Navan and extra Maynooth trains.


  • #45
    OTK
    Closed Accounts Posts: 556 ✭✭✭OTK


    mackerski wrote:
    But consider a person needing to get from the following parts of west Dublin to just about anywhere else:

    * N Blanch industrial estates
    industrial estates built where land was cheap are not walkable. The are designed for cars and cannot be served by public transport unless they are zoned up to the bollix with multistorey flats etc. Even sandyford ind est has businesses located up to 20 minutes walk from the tram.
    * Any part of Clondalkin
    Clondalkin is nearly 9 square miles with 8 people living to the acre. Rail doesn't work at this density. You would need 10 stations to come close to serving the population of Clondalkin. In a grid.
    For clarity, let's assume the end destination isn't even on Metro West. It might be:

    * Anywhere on the red line
    * Anywhere on the Maynooth, Kildare or Drogheda heavy lines
    * Anywhere on a bus route intersecting the MW
    * Absolutely anywhere else not viable from a bus route directly serving the point of origin.

    Any such journey will be transformed by MW and very few of them will require the passenger to traverse the city centre - two Good Things(tm).
    the bulk of these journeys will require a car at one end or the other or both (an impossibility by train). And if you have a car why take the train? After all, the new M50 will carry 200,000 vehicles per day.
    The point about circular routes on the London underground is also a bit off. London does have a circle line (in fact, it was their earliest underground line, built for the same reason as our interconnector). To be fair, part of it does traverse "The City", but at the time of its construction, linking the mainline railways was a strategic way of getting transit traffic out of the city centre.

    Today, of course, the entire zone inside the circle line is criss-crossed by more direct routes, so you'd be unlikely to travel 180-degress on it, but I fear that Dublin is some way off from that.
    There is no comparison between the london circle line passing 1-2 miles from the city centre, consistently through high density areas filled with carless commuters and a line connecting a bunch of exurbs with near total car ownership.

    Making people change in a central hub doesn't congest the city in the way that making them drive into the city does. It just means they cross an underground platform somewhere where they have multiple options for reaching the other connected suburbs.


  • #46
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Can someone explain a few things, I'm new here:D

    Is this going to be above round or below it?

    And if the new Luas green line is going down to Cherrywood, what is linking Cherrywood to Bray?

    And, lastly, when will the Citywest Luas line be finished?


    thanks.


  • #47
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,489 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Fratton Fred wrote:
    Is this going to be above round or below it?
    Much of it would be at ground level, probably a high level bridge across the liffey and individual other sections above or below ground for shortish disances.
    And if the new Luas green line is going down to Cherrywood, what is linking Cherrywood to Bray?
    B St. Stephen's Green to Sandyford
    B1 Sandyford to Cherrywood
    B2 Cherrywood to Bray
    And, lastly, when will the Citywest Luas line be finished?
    It will take a few years yet. check www.transport21.ie


  • #48
    PRman
    Registered Users Posts: 269 ✭✭PRman


    It they are to go ahead with this they need to integrate it with the existing DART line. It should be extended to Howth Junction, Donaghmede where it would link up with the Dart LIne including both spurs to Howth and Malahide. It will then connect the South East and the North West of Dublin. I also think they should consider shifting the north suburban railine onto the metro north as this will connect belfast, drogheda, dundalk with the airport, etc. and also free capacity on the already overcrowded Dart line.


  • #49
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Victor wrote:
    Much of it would be at ground level, probably a high level bridge across the liffey and individual other sections above or below ground for shortish disances.

    why, why, why?

    who on earth thought that the answer to Dublin's congested roads would be to put a glorified bus service that travels along/over those roads.

    what logic is it that says "I know, we have a very badly congested junction at the M50/N7, so to make things better, we'll put a bloody tram on it???

    is there a problem with digging big holes and puting trains in them?


  • #50
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,489 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    PRman wrote:
    I also think they should consider shifting the north suburban railine onto the metro north as this will connect belfast, drogheda, dundalk with the airport, etc. and also free capacity on the already overcrowded Dart line.
    Can't be done. Completely different arrangements (gauge, power supply, stations ....).


  • #51
    markpb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,341 ✭✭✭markpb


    PRman wrote:
    I also think they should consider shifting the north suburban railine onto the metro north as this will connect belfast, drogheda, dundalk with the airport, etc. and also free capacity on the already overcrowded Dart line.

    Good god no! The main reason the dart is a joke is because of the conflicts between Dart and Suburban/IC trains. Moving those services to Metro would make the Dart better (although with IR at the helm, I'm not sure they wouldn't mess that up) at the expense of making the Metro useless.

    It should definitely be a long term goal to move the ICs onto their own network so the Dart can be made somewhat decent.


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  • #52
    Slice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,133 ✭✭✭Slice


    PRman: It they are to go ahead with this they need to integrate it with the existing DART line. It should be extended to Howth Junction

    This would appear to be the obvious option wouldn't it? In much the same way the need to connect Red and Green Luas lines only became apparent after those lines were completed I'd imagine the same would happen here. In fact connecting Metro West to the northern branch of Dart would make the whole project worthwhile in a way that I'm not sure it is now. This is especially the case if the point of Metro West (as suggested on this thread) is to serve as an orbital route that bypasses the city. As it stands I'm not really sure if it would serve any greater purpose than to provide a transport link between Tallaght, Clondalkin, Lucan and Blanchardstown (granted such a transport link is much needed).


  • #53
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,978 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I must say I'm shocked that so many people are so short sighted here on this forum, complaining about Metro West.

    We often complain about the government being short-sighted, building lots of houses with no thought to the infrastructure required. Yet here we are complaining again because this time the government is giving some fore thought, building a Metro that connects a number of already very high density urban areas with one another and other forms of public transport and with plenty of relatively empty land in between for future high density building.

    What you have to remember, once the proposed route is decided, the surrounding areas will become the busiest building site in Ireland with lots of high density housing being built (probably up to and over 6 stories) along that line. I won't be at all surprised if by 2014, when it is finished, the area of Dublin West, all along the line will be the highest density area in Ireland.

    Another point people seem to be missing, is that it isn't just going to be used for getting from point A to point B with no transfers, instead it is designed to integrate with other forms of public transport.

    For instance if you are in Blanchardstown and want to head to the city centre, then you either take the Metro West south, to the Maynooth Line and then change onto the Dart into the city centre or take the Metro West North and then transfer onto Metro North into the city centre.

    Similarly from either Lucan or Liffey Valley, take the Metro to either the Maynooth or Kildare line and get the Dart into the city centre. Similarly from Clondalkin get the Metro to either the Kildare Line or the Red Luas.

    As for comments about houses and business parks being spread out in Lucan and Clondalkin and being 20 minutes walk from the Metro station, well that is why we need the Dublin Transport Authority and for Dublin Bus to change radically from being a radial service to a feeder type service. The idea being when you arrive at the Metro station/Dart Station, there will be feeder buses waiting to bring you to the local business parks and around the estates.

    This actually happens already, if you get the Dart to Clontarf Road Dart Station, you will find a free mini bus waiting to take you to East Point Business Park every 10 minutes and it works very well.

    It is all about multi-modal transport and it can work very well.


  • #54
    mackerski
    Registered Users Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭mackerski


    OTK wrote:
    industrial estates built where land was cheap are not walkable. The are designed for cars and cannot be served by public transport unless they are zoned up to the bollix with multistorey flats etc. Even sandyford ind est has businesses located up to 20 minutes walk from the tram.

    Not quite the full story. I work in a recently completed office park. Yes, it was built in the middle of nowhere. Yes, that makes getting there without a car tricky. No, it wasn't designed for cars. It would have been, but the council had the brilliant idea of restricting the number of parking spaces permitted. This was intended to encourage park workers to use the public transport that hadn't been provided.

    As to the problem of industrial areas not sufficiently close to a station, that was solved years ago by our foreign brethern: Feeder buses! These work singularly well in industrial estates that are nearish to good rail, since a single vehicle can run a regular shuttle for a modest cost which the landlords will pay because it's good for bragging rights.
    OTK wrote:
    Clondalkin is nearly 9 square miles with 8 people living to the acre. Rail doesn't work at this density. You would need 10 stations to come close to serving the population of Clondalkin. In a grid.

    That or some feeder buses.
    OTK wrote:
    the bulk of these journeys will require a car at one end or the other or both

    Or a short bus ride.
    OTK wrote:
    Making people change in a central hub doesn't congest the city in the way that making them drive into the city does. It just means they cross an underground platform somewhere where they have multiple options for reaching the other connected suburbs.

    Not in the specific instance further up this thread. In that instance you'd leave your underground platform, ascend an escalator, walk a portion of the distance between O'Connell Bridge and Abbey St., ascend another escalator and emerge onto a pavement at a busy junction of our capital's main street. There'll be better city interchanges, of course, like those along the Interconnector, but they'll still be busy enough with real city traffic that an outer bypass still has merit.

    Dermot


  • #55
    mackerski
    Registered Users Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭mackerski


    strassenwolf wrote:
    For Mick to travel from Swords to Tallaght he has to get to Ballymun on the metro. Either way. He could then stay on the metro to O'Connell Street and then have a journey of approximately 14 km on the LUAS. Or he could change onto the metrowest and have a journey of 24-28 km to get to Tallaght. Hmmm. It's not clear that there'd be a whole lot in it.

    It's not the length, it's what you do with it ;)

    Those Metro-trams can do 80km/h, which would get you there pretty damn fast if distance were the only consideration (though the alignments shown have some nasty corners, let's hope they're at stations).

    Swords to O'Connell St. will be 10 stops already, with another 20 by Luas to Tallaght. The Swords-Tallaght route via Metro West might at a stretch have half that many stops. That's a lot of saved dwell times.

    Dermot


  • #56
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,978 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Slice wrote:
    This would appear to be the obvious option wouldn't it?

    Well they need to keep something to do for the next Transport 21 plan after this one :)

    If you look at the plans, you can see that there are lots of things that will probably be called for after the current plan is finished. While in fairness they can't do everything now, I hope that they are at least planning for it and are retaining land etc. for future development.

    Some of the things I for see being done:

    1) Continue Metro West towards Howth.
    2) Continue Metro West towards Bray.
    3) Convert Luas Green line to Metro, making Metro North a complete North to south service.
    4) Another Luas line between Luas Red and Green (this might be a Metro line, instead to connect with Metro North, rather then converting the Green line above).
    5) Another Luas line for Dublin North East (questionable).
    6) A Dublin South port tunnel, completing the M50 as an orbital route.
    7) Radical change in Dublin Bus routes from a radial service to a feeder service.
    8) Maybe city centre congestion charging.

    Looking at it, the current plans build a very good foundation for future development.


  • #57
    strassenwolf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 642 ✭✭✭strassenwolf


    mackerski wrote:
    Swords to O'Connell St. will be 10 stops already, with another 20 by Luas to Tallaght. The Swords-Tallaght route via Metro West might at a stretch have half that many stops. That's a lot of saved dwell times.

    The comparison you give for Mick's journey is not quite accurate. Whatever way he wishes to get to Tallaght he will in all likelihood travel by metro as far as Ballymun. So the stops between Swords and Ballymun are not important to the comparison.

    If he goes via the city, he is faced with a further 5/6 stops on the metro and a 20-stop, 14 km journey on the LUAS.

    If he takes the metrowest he has a journey, from Ballymun, of 24-28 km. You suggest that it might only have half the stops. 13-14, perhaps, approximating to a stop every 2 km.

    In order to actually pin down which way would be better for Mick, it might also be necessary to find out how often metro trains are intended to run on this route. With stations only every 2 km, it wouldn't be a great indicator that demand is predicted to be sky high, and Mick might have to wait longer for his connection.

    It still is not clear why we do not prioritise corridors in the city which could comfortably support a metro line with stations every 1 km, if not even less. Should connection of these corridors with various other rail lines not also be important. Why is all the focus on a corridor which connects with all the rail lines but seems to only be able to support a station every 2 km?


  • #58
    OTK
    Closed Accounts Posts: 556 ✭✭✭OTK


    mackerski wrote:
    As to the problem of industrial areas not sufficiently close to a station, that was solved years ago by our foreign brethern: Feeder buses! These work singularly well in industrial estates that are nearish to good rail, since a single vehicle can run a regular shuttle for a modest cost which the landlords will pay because it's good for bragging rights.
    I have never seen a feeder bus work well or be popular in Dublin. This may be my bad luck. Do you know of one? When the DART was launched there was a lot of talk of feeder buses but I think these routes gradually died away. Wait for a bus that might never come to take me to a railway station to wait for a train? I'd rather hang myself. Even the DART feeder to the airport went bust.

    Sandyford industrial estate has the 114 feeder bus to take you to the DART. It runs every half hour but with traffic or a missing driver, it could be an hour. An hour plus journey time just to reach the railway station. What use is that?

    People don't like changing mode because they instinctively know that each change entails not just a wait but a new chance of failure. If the bus is delayed 10% of the time and the train is delayed 10% of the time, then taking one after the other gives you a 19% chance of delay. The only bus routes that work are radial high frequency. The rest are for lunatics with all the time in the world to spare.


  • #59
    aliveandkicking
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 961 ✭✭✭aliveandkicking


    mackerski wrote:
    There seems to be a lot of daft comment on this thread from people who usually seem to know better.
    bk wrote:
    I must say I'm shocked that so many people are so short sighted here on this forum, complaining about Metro West.

    I echo both these sentiments entirely. Frankly I'm stunned that many on this thread fail to grasp the benefits of Metro West. I admit when I first looked at Plarform for Change four years ago and seen this metro orbiting around western Dublin but not going into the city centre I thought to myself "what's the point of that" but then when I thought about it further I began to see why they proposed it. That was four years ago - now in 2006 it makes even more sense than it did back then.


  • #60
    BrianD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    bk wrote:
    I must say I'm shocked that so many people are so short sighted here on this forum, complaining about Metro West.

    We often complain about the government being short-sighted, building lots of houses with no thought to the infrastructure required. Yet here we are complaining again because this time the government is giving some fore thought, building a Metro that connects a number of already very high density urban areas with one another and other forms of public transport and with plenty of relatively empty land in between for future high density building.

    What you have to remember, once the proposed route is decided, the surrounding areas will become the busiest building site in Ireland with lots of high density housing being built (probably up to and over 6 stories) along that line. I won't be at all surprised if by 2014, when it is finished, the area of Dublin West, all along the line will be the highest density area in Ireland.

    Another point people seem to be missing, is that it isn't just going to be used for getting from point A to point B with no transfers, instead it is designed to integrate with other forms of public transport.

    For instance if you are in Blanchardstown and want to head to the city centre, then you either take the Metro West south, to the Maynooth Line and then change onto the Dart into the city centre or take the Metro West North and then transfer onto Metro North into the city centre.

    Similarly from either Lucan or Liffey Valley, take the Metro to either the Maynooth or Kildare line and get the Dart into the city centre. Similarly from Clondalkin get the Metro to either the Kildare Line or the Red Luas.

    As for comments about houses and business parks being spread out in Lucan and Clondalkin and being 20 minutes walk from the Metro station, well that is why we need the Dublin Transport Authority and for Dublin Bus to change radically from being a radial service to a feeder type service. The idea being when you arrive at the Metro station/Dart Station, there will be feeder buses waiting to bring you to the local business parks and around the estates.

    This actually happens already, if you get the Dart to Clontarf Road Dart Station, you will find a free mini bus waiting to take you to East Point Business Park every 10 minutes and it works very well.

    It is all about multi-modal transport and it can work very well.

    Unfortunately, I think you may be missing the point. The metro west (which I assume is a sop to the circle line lobby) is a fundamentally flawed project on every level.

    Firstly, it is not a straegic project that addresses future transport needs and urban development. It is simply a response to bad planning and devlopment in west Dublin by trying to make some amends to people who are living there.

    One of the weakest points of both Metro lines proposed by the RPA is that they don't integrate well with other modes of transport. No where is this more obvious than on the Metro North where virtually no thought was given to linking the line with other heavy rail lines including mainline rail. Therefore multi-modal transportation is not facilitaed unless you want to use a tram.

    The RPA plans are bankrupt and the fact that they are not costed is the least of our worries. The RPA have given the impression that they are leaders in this area yet they are proposing high frequency lines that run on street level and have level crossings!! It would be funny if it wasn't true.

    The initial reports suggest that, bizarrely, Metro West would start in Tallaght and built towards the airport requiring unecessary duplication of resources and a distinct possibility that the line would a) never built or b) never finished.

    There is absolutely no forethought by either the Government or the RPA with respect to these projects. The plan seems to be just to build anything and say its done. There is merit to the Metro West but not as it is proposed by the RPA. People living in the western suburbs do need to be served by better transport. To be frank, I'm sure they would prefer to see projects like a Maynooth Dart and Kildare Line Dart that should have been opened 20 years ago done first.


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  • #61
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,978 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    BrianD wrote:
    One of the weakest points of both Metro lines proposed by the RPA is that they don't integrate well with other modes of transport. No where is this more obvious than on the Metro North where virtually no thought was given to linking the line with other heavy rail lines including mainline rail. Therefore multi-modal transportation is not facilitaed unless you want to use a tram.

    I'm sorry Brian, but you just lost all authority there.

    Metro North will integrate with Dart and Suburban Rail on the Maynooth line at Drumcondra and it will integrate with Dart on the Kildare line at the Interchange at St Stephens Green.

    You can get to Heuston, Connolly and the Docklands station with one change to Luas at Abbey St. and you will be able to go to Hueston, Pearse and Docklands with one change to Dart at St Stephens Green.

    Frankly I don't see how you could get any more integrated with mainline rail then that?

    And from what I see Metro West will be just as well integrated, with connections to Luas Red, Kildare Dart and Suburban Rail, Maynooth Dart and Suburban Rail and Metro North.


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