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The Hazards of Belief

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    #122
    mountainyman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,268 ✭✭✭mountainyman


    robindch wrote:
    There's an interesting disparity here -- in the religious believer's mind, any time that an atheist commits a crime, atheism is somehow to blame. But whenever a believer-in-god commits a crime, it's the person at fault and not the religious system.

    I would say that judging by this atheism discussion board, whenever a believer in God (or Gods you anti Pagan) commits a crime it is regarded as proof that belief in God is absurd. But when an atheist is responsible for the murder of 4.5 million people it is a systems failure.

    Therefore the situation is precisely the reverse of what you allege it is.

    Perhaps there is a weakness in the atheist mind [1] that leads them to be more amenable to this sort of Stalinistic [2] 'airbrushing' of history.

    The hypocrisy is staggering!

    Fortunately (for me) I believe in a loving and infinitely compassionate God who will burn you all forever because you didn't believe in him correctly.


    MM

    [1] A rather unjustified intellectual hubris to judge by this internet discussion and bulletin board (Atheism/Agnosticism)

    [2] Stalin was an ATHEIST


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    #123
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    > I would say that judging by this atheism discussion board, whenever a believer
    > in God (or Gods you anti Pagan) commits a crime it is regarded as proof that
    > belief in God is absurd.

    Nobody has said that, and I don't believe that anybody here believes it either. Why do you think this is so?

    > But when an atheist is responsible for the murder of 4.5 million people it is
    > a systems failure.

    Er, no. Read my message, especially the bit where I say that "the famine was engineered by Stalin for political reasons." Remember that you're the one who's saying that atheism causes murder, not me! Or more generally, that belief (or not) in god regulates human behaviour.

    > I believe in a loving and infinitely compassionate God who will burn you
    > all forever because you didn't believe in him correctly.

    Difficult to know if you're joking here or not. For what it's worth, I've been personally condemned to hell by quite a few folks on the christianity board, so one more here hardly makes much difference :)

    > [2] Stalin was an ATHEIST

    Who spent three years in Tblisi studying to be an orthodox priest and who subsequently used religious modes of hero-worship to fortify his own grip on power. Same as Hitler did.


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    #124
    mountainyman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,268 ✭✭✭mountainyman


    robindch wrote:
    Nobody has said that, and I don't believe that anybody here believes it either. Why do you think this is so?
    Because of the reference to the priest who embezzled €8.6 million. If my assumption (that this example of criminality in indicative of somewider context) is incorrect I apologise; the actions of the Soviet state do not invalidate atheist arguments just as the actions of various religiously based centres of power throughout history do not invalidate a belief in God.

    robindch and MountainyMan wrote:
    I believe in a loving and infinitely compassionate God who will burn you all forever because you didn't believe in him correctly.
    Difficult to know if you're joking here or not.
    Not that difficult I hope.

    EDIT: I think you (robindch) are being disingeuous if you are claiming that the stupidity of indvidual religious believers is not held to be indicative of a wider 'stupidity' regarding religion as a whole.


    MM


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    #125
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    mountainyman wrote:
    Fortunately (for me) I believe in a loving and infinitely compassionate God who will burn you all forever because you didn't believe in him correctly.
    That's a keeper. In fact a potential future sig perhaps...

    Careful about the generalisations about this forum's users. I don't care frankly but if I get complaints I have to address them.


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    #126
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    > Because of the reference to the priest who embezzled €8.6 million. If my
    > assumption (that this example of criminality in indicative of somewider
    > context) is incorrect I apologise;

    No problem. I posted the article more because it shows up a common discontinuity between the morality spoken about by members of the church, and the morality practised by members of the church. Which isn't to say that all priests have their hands in the till, but just that some inevitably do. The follow-up article in which the priest claimed that he felt that he was a "CEO of a multi-million dollar business", but that he "wasn't being compensated properly" was just more of the same.

    > the actions of the Soviet state do not invalidate atheist arguments

    In order to prove that this link exists, you will have to demonstrate clear evidence that Stalin engineered the famine because he was an atheist and also that he did it for atheistic reasons. If you can't do that, then you can't say that Stalin did it because he was atheist. Simply saying that X did Y because X is an Z doesn't show anything at all. For example, Stalin probably accepted that gravity exists. Did he engineer the Ukrainian famines because he accepted gravity?

    > just as the actions of various religiously based centres of power
    > throughout history do not invalidate a belief in God.

    I've never said that god doesn't exist, nor will I ever be able to prove that god doesn't exist, despite my own belief that god certainly doesn't exist as described in any religious text that I'm aware of. The core problem is that religious centers of power to not tolerate criticism or change an inevitably become absolutist as time passes. They're just the same, in form (but not in content), as communist centers of power.

    > > Difficult to know if you're joking here or not.
    > Not that difficult I hope.

    I still have no idea. Putting "all-loving" and "burn in hell" in the same sentence is something that I would only ever do with a deep sense of irony. Hence my confusion about whether you meant it seriously or as a joke.

    > EDIT: I think you (robindch) are being disingeuous if you are claiming
    > that the stupidity of indvidual religious believers is not held to be
    > indicative of a wider 'stupidity' regarding religion as a whole.

    About that chap who jumped into the lions? I don't regard that as stupidity, but suicidal madness inspired directly by religion. As I said, it's sad. Very, very sad indeed.


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    #127
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    mountainyman wrote:
    Fortunately (for me) I believe in a loving and infinitely compassionate God who will burn you all forever because you didn't believe in him correctly.

    LOL
    Brilliant :D


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    #128
    mountainyman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,268 ✭✭✭mountainyman


    It was intended as a joke. However I apologise because it obviously wan't funny enough. I will be funnier next time.

    edit: Though surely the little '(for me)' gave it away?


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    #129
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    > edit: Though surely the little '(for me)' gave it away?

    Not really. As I said, I've been told by other believers in a "god of infinite love" who provides fine moral rules for everybody to follow, that I'm serving evil and am going to burn in a lake of fire for all eternity. At that, irony just hangs up its hat and goes home :)


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    #130
    guildofevil
    Registered Users Posts: 552 ✭✭✭guildofevil


    The persecution of religious organizations under Stalin was about power.

    For example, he had the Russian Orthodox Church persecuted because it was an influential organization which he could not control. After he had it practically destroyed, he allowed it to be re-established, in a form he could control. This is not the act of an atheist trying to wipe out religion, this is the act of a dictator eliminating a rival.

    Some ideologies can be manipulated to justify the most heinous acts and that is exactly what happened with Stalin. Stalin justified his actions by twisting Marxist thinking to his own ends.

    Atheism is not an ideology. Atheists can subscribe to a number of ideologies, or no ideology at all and an atheist can be a good person or a bad person.

    Stalin was an evil man who was in the habit of having anyone who disagreed with him killed. The ideology which gave him the excuse and the power to do that was communism, not atheism.


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    #131
    mountainyman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,268 ✭✭✭mountainyman


    guildofevil: I am unsure what your point is. I would suggest that you reread my posts.

    MM


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    #132
    guildofevil
    Registered Users Posts: 552 ✭✭✭guildofevil


    mountainyman wrote:
    guildofevil: I am unsure what your point is. I would suggest that you reread my posts.

    I was making a general point, I was not speaking about your posts in particular. If I was I would have quoted you to make it clear who I was talking to. Just like I am now :)

    Although, now that you mention it...
    mountainyman wrote:
    Because of the reference to the priest who embezzled €8.6 million. If my assumption (that this example of criminality in indicative of somewider context) is incorrect I apologise; the actions of the Soviet state do not invalidate atheist arguments just as the actions of various religiously based centres of power throughout history do not invalidate a belief in God.

    In the example at issue it is an individual who is going against the law and the teachings of his church out of greed. I don't think anyone can blame the religion, church or anyone else for that. He's just a priest who has become a criminal.

    To belong to a religious organization is to give it power over you. Influence over your thoughts and actions.

    It is the actions which the religious organizations inspire in their followers which interest me and they often illustrate quite well how much of a crock most churches claim to morality is.

    Most religions have a series of dos and don'ts to their belief but they are often thrown away as soon it becomes expedient to do so. If you would like examples I can give them, but I dare say you can think of a few yourself.

    Religions are ideologies with a belief in the supernatural as an element, just as communism is an ideology with atheism as an element. Both require blind obedience to a set of rules, as interpreted by some authority figure. Both are dangerous and bad for human development as a whole.

    Rather than be wary of religions and faith, I think it would be better to be wary of authoritarian ideologies. There is nothing wrong with a belief in the supernatural. I don't share it, but it's OK in and of itself. It's when that becomes an organized religion, with influence over the masses, that it becomes dangerous to people.

    As soon as you start letting someone else tell you what is right and wrong, you are on a slippery slope, regardless of whether that person is a priest, imam, führer, or party leader.


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    #133
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Internet chatter drives 70 miles to deliver can of whoopass over disagreement in forum discussing a certain "religion of peace":

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/6059726.stm


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    #134
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    robindch wrote:
    Internet chatter drives 70 miles to deliver can of whoopass over disagreement in forum discussing a certain "religion of peace"
    Given the number of heathens that have swords, it would be interesting to see what happens when a disgruntled Muslim calls around wielding a 'mere' machete. :D


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    #135
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    My sword is sitting next to my computer, come for teh love boys. :D


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    #136
    Asiaprod
    Registered Users Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭Asiaprod


    Tar.Aldarion wrote:
    My sword is sitting next to my computer, come for teh love boys. :D
    Sharpening mine as we speak:D


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    #137
    aidan24326
    Registered Users Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    I've a nuke.

    I'll take everyone with me... :mad:

    *glances nervously at 'not supposed to be making those noises' bomb*


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    #138
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    (August 2006, Libreville, Gabon) In August, a congregation's 35-year old pastor insisted one could literally walk on water, if only one had enough faith. Big and bold was his speech. He extolled the heavenly power possessed by a faithful man with such force that he may well have convinced himself.

    Whether or not he believed in his heart, his sermons left room for only shame should he leave his own faith untested. Thus, the pastor set out to walk across a major estuary, the path of a 20-minute ferry ride. But the man could not swim.

    Lacking the miraculous powers of David Copperfield, let alone holy Jesus Christ, this ill-fated cleric found only a Darwin Award at the end of his final path.


    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #139
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    It's probably wrong that I laughed a little...
    Luckily, why would I have morals without believing in a god


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    #140
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    > [...] this ill-fated cleric found only a Darwin Award [...]

    Excellently predicted in this thread by 5uspect back in August -- behold the power of boards!

    BTW, I've never heard of the "Creation Awards" -- I wonder what they could be for? The years' most exotic newly-created species? Impromptu on-the-spot recovery from the goriest death? The arrival, ex nihilo, of a mormon-style gold-plated holybook which subsequently vanishes?

    Suggestions please!


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    #141
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    One miracle for 5uspect, two to go.


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    #142
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    robindch wrote:
    > [...] this ill-fated cleric found only a Darwin Award [...]

    Excellently predicted in this thread by 5uspect back in August -- behold the power of boards!

    BTW, I've never heard of the "Creation Awards" -- I wonder what they could be for? The years' most exotic newly-created species? Impromptu on-the-spot recovery from the goriest death? The arrival, ex nihilo, of a mormon-style gold-plated holybook which subsequently vanishes?

    Suggestions please!

    They will be awarded in the afterlife, apparently.

    gloomily,
    Scofflaw


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    #143
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Back to hazards:

    "Animal sacrifices maim 1,400 in Turkey"

    http://www.nj.com/newsflash/international/index.ssf?/base/international-35/1167584646154950.xml&storylist=international
    ANKARA, Turkey (AP) — Over a thousand Turks spent the first day of the Muslim feast of Eid al-Adha in emergency wards on Sunday after stabbing themselves or suffering other injuries while sacrificing startled animals.

    At least 1,413 people — referred to as "amateur butchers" by the Turkish media — were treated at hospitals across the country, most suffering cuts to their hands and legs, the Anatolia news agency reported.

    Four people were severely injured, crushed under the weight of large animals that fell on top of them, the agency reported. Another person was hurt when a crane used to lift an animal tumbled onto him, the agency said.

    Three other people suffered heart attacks and died while trying to restrain animals, CNN-Turk television reported.

    Muslims sacrifice cows, sheep, goats and bulls during the four-day religious holiday, a ritual commemorating the biblical account of God's provision of a ram for Abraham to sacrifice as he was about to slay his son. They share the meat with friends, family and neighbors and give part of it to the poor.

    Turkish authorities have introduced fines for those who slaughter animals outside facilities set up by local municipalities, but many Turks ignored the rules and sacrificed animals in their backyards or on roadsides.


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    #144
    5uspect
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    Tar.Aldarion wrote:
    One miracle for 5uspect, two to go.

    ?Que?
    Sorry I'm lost!


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    #145
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    robindch wrote:
    "Animal sacrifices maim 1,400 in Turkey"

    Haha...amateurs.


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    #146
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Not religious belief, but rather the rest of the superstitious package:

    Quarter say cancer 'down to fate'

    Over a quarter of people believe that fate will determine whether they get cancer, a survey says.


    cordially,
    cofflaw


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    #147
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Scofflaw wrote:
    Over a quarter of people believe that fate will determine whether they get cancer, a survey says.
    I think that's less a religious decision, and more a lifestyle one.

    People are simply too lazy to eat a balanced (but unappetising) diet and get off their arses to exercise. I doubt so many would believe 'fate' is a factor if there was a simple pill or injection you could take to prevent cancer.


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    #148
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    The Atheist wrote:
    I think that's less a religious decision, and more a lifestyle one.

    People are simply too lazy to eat a balanced (but unappetising) diet and get off their arses to exercise. I doubt so many would believe 'fate' is a factor if there was a simple pill or injection you could take to prevent cancer.

    Possibly - but wouldn't that then simply be a deus ex machina that changed your fate?

    As I said, though, I'd agree it's not a religious decision sensu stricto.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #149
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    5uspect wrote:
    ?Que?
    Sorry I'm lost!

    Beatitude beckons.....it could be you!


    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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    #150
    jimbling
    Registered Users Posts: 4,053 ✭✭✭jimbling


    fantastic thread... keep it up.


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    #151
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    Scofflaw wrote:
    Beatitude beckons.....it could be you!


    cordially,
    Scofflaw
    Finally, a chance to address somebody as, Your Beatitude.


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