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Abortion Discussion, Part Trois

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  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Didn't they also defend the "mother's place is in the home" article in the constitution too?

    yep,
    But in fairness, everyone knows women belong in the home,
    Their job is making baby's and baking, anyone against this clearly knows nothing about baking
    :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,797 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Pretty terrible thought process there. Marriage is for making babies! Yeah? Prove it: start a move to ban people from marrying who don't plan to have children; fine couples that never adopt/have children; etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,844 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Didn't they also defend the "mother's place is in the home" article in the constitution too?

    I've found the submissions for that particular part of the Constitutional Convention in this report, on p106.

    First there's NEART, which describes itself as a "pro-family, pro-life and pro-woman" coalition. It was formed in 2000 by Pat Buckley, who has campaigned across the EU against abortion. Then there's Comhar Criostai, European Life Network, and Family & Life. Where's that web of Legatus lackeys/Catholic reactionaries when you need it?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 138 ✭✭Patrick Wheelock


    Most pro life people think Youth Defence are loons as well.


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,022 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Interesting that all the "civil partnership is enough - we don't need gay marriage" crowd had actually campaigned against civil partnership.

    The Irish electorate are not nearly as stupid as YD, Iona et al think.

    Life ain't always empty.



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭The Randy Riverbeast


    Interesting that all the "civil partnership is enough - we don't need gay marriage" crowd had actually campaigned against civil partnership.

    The Irish electorate are not nearly as stupid as YD, Iona et al think.

    It's as if they just dont like gay people. Who would have thought.

    Links234 wrote: »
    This is one of the most disgusting things I've seen recently, anti-choice campaigners mimicking LGBT equality in a nausiatingly hypocritical piece:



    It's especially appalling because the likes of Youth Defense, Iona and the rest of that shower were so biliously against marriage equality, yet now they want to drape themselves with that terminology? Hideous.

    Well if they want to play that game, the unborn are equal. Different people are just treated differently :)

    Sweet zombie jesus, they even hijacked the logo.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Interesting that all the "civil partnership is enough - we don't need gay marriage" crowd had actually campaigned against civil partnership.

    It's like the Sinn Féin strategy of campaigning against every EU referendum by arguing that the EU we have is fine, and that the treaty being proposed will destroy it.

    Amsterdam: we're in favour of the EU created by Maastricht, but Amsterdam is terrible!

    Nice: we're in favour of the EU created by Amsterdam, but Nice is terrible!

    Lisbon:we're in favour of the EU created by Nice... rinse, repeat.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/irish-doctors-call-for-decriminalisation-of-abortion-1.2437846
    Irish doctors call for decriminalisation of abortion
    Letter signed by 838 doctors warns criminalising abortion puts lives at risk
    Doctors and health professionals from every region of the world today added their voices to the growing pressure for the decriminalisation of abortion.

    Some 838 doctors from 44 countries have signed an open letter to governments published today by Amnesty International.

    The letter has been signed by some of the leading figures in Irish healthcare, which include Dr Peter Boylan, Consultant Obstetrician and Gynaecologist at the National Maternity Hospital on Holles Street and Dr Veronica O’Keane, Professor in psychiatry at Trinity College Dublin and consultant psychiatrist.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,844 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    B-b-but muh Dublin Declaration!


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Pssht, what do doctors know about reproductive health? I'd like to hear from a celibate man who consults a book of fairytales to find out what his learned opinion is!


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  • Site Banned Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Second Toughest in_the Freshers


    Letter signed by 838 doctors warns criminalising abortion puts lives at risk
    abortion ...

    ... lives at risk


  • Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    abortion ...

    ... lives at risk

    The 8th amendment puts women's lives at risk. It's quite simple really.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    seamus wrote: »
    Pssht, what do doctors know about reproductive health? I'd like to hear from a celibate man who consults a book of fairytales to find out what his learned opinion is!

    Or a solicitor like Cora Sherlock!!


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    A predictable gun attack on a Planned Parenthood outlet has taken place, with the suspect allegedly stating "No more baby parts" as he was being arrested. Nine people were injured and three people died in the attack.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34954474


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Of course the media won't call him what he likely is, a christian terrorist. If he looked middle eastern they'd have called him a Muslim terrorist by now


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,022 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    robindch wrote: »
    A predictable gun attack on a Planned Parenthood outlet has taken place, with the suspect allegedly stating "No more baby parts" as he was being arrested. Nine people were injured and three people died in the attack.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34954474

    Defend life - by shooting people :rolleyes:

    I wish all religious nuts would expedite their personal passage into paradise, just don't take anyone else with ya. Ta-ra.

    Life ain't always empty.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Of course the media won't call him what he likely is, a christian terrorist. If he looked middle eastern they'd have called him a Muslim terrorist by now
    Ted Cruz said the shooter was a "Transgendered Leftist Activist":

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/11/29/ted-cruz-says-planned-parenthood-shooter-was-transgendered-leftist-activist/
    https://www.texastribune.org/2015/11/29/cruz-condemns-planned-parenthood-shooting-colorado/
    Ted Cruz wrote:
    [...] some vicious rhetoric on the left blaming those who are pro-life. [...] The media promptly wants to blame him on the pro-life movement when at this point there’s very little evidence to indicate that [...] It’s also been reported that he was registered as an independent and a woman and a transgendered leftist activist. If that’s what he is, I don’t think it’s fair to blame on the rhetoric on the left. This is a murderer. [...] We know that he was a man who was registered to vote as a woman [...] I would call it a murder, and we’ll see what the facts are [...] It was a multiple murder of what appears to be a deranged individual. And it was horrific, it was evil, and we’ll find out more out about the facts, but I don’t think we should jump to conclusions.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Christian Terrorists strike again!

    http://www.broadsheet.ie/2015/11/30/white-terrorism/
    White, right-wing terrorists are killing more Americans in America than jihadists.

    Dr Julien Mercille writes:

    We have heard a lot about Islamic terrorists recently in the wake of the Paris attacks conducted by ISIS. In general, the implicit or explicit association between “terrorism” and “Islam” can be seen everywhere in popular culture and political commentary.

    But last week, we witnessed another act of terrorism, this time committed by a white man in the United States at an abortion clinic in Colorado. Three people died in the shooting and the suspected gunman, Robert Lewis Dear, was taken into custody.

    This is yet another event of terrorism conducted by white people, that have killed more individuals in the United States than jihadists since 9-11, as this New America Foundation study found. The study shows that right-wing white terrorists have killed 48 people whereas jihadists have killed 26 since 9-11.

    The sad thing is that the shooting at the Colorado abortion clinic is not an isolated event—abortion clinics have long been subjected to terrorist acts and harassment. The perpetrators are often linked to Christian fundamentalist groups, as noted by Juan Cole, the professor of history writing on Islam and religion, in an excellent post on the subject.

    Anti-abortion extremists can be seen outside abortion clinics or the houses of those who work there with signs such as “Prepare to Meet Thy God” and “Fear Him Who Has the Power to Cast You Into Hell”.

    Anti-abortion extremists have killed eight abortion providers in the US over the years. One well-known case is the assassination of George Tiller in 2009, an abortion doctor who operated in Wichita, Kansas. He was killed point-blank on a Sunday in his Church. After he was murdered, his clinic closed.

    Tiller had a history of being targeted by Christian Right terrorists. His clinic was firebombed in 1986. In 1993, he was shot five times by a Christian Right woman called Shelley Shannon (who is now serving time in prison), an attack which he survived.

    Targeted intimidation against doctors and staff of abortion clinics is common and on the rise (see this graph). In 2010, 27% of US clinics suffered from those types of threats, whereas in 2014, it was 52%.

    This Oxford University Press book tells the stories of abortion providers who have been “physically assaulted, picketed at home, threatened over the phone, and stalked around town”.

    As a result, they have been forced to “take different routes to work on a regular basis, they change their schedules frequently, they plan their living arrangements as a precaution, they buy guns, and they wear bulletproof vests.”

    Yes, bulletproof vests. As one of them explained

    “If anybody told me when I was in medical school that I would go to work armed and with a bulletproof vest, I would have thought they were nuts. But I do have a bulletproof vest, and I do go to clinics armed these days.”

    There have been parallel political moves to restrict abortion in the United States. So far in 2015, states have enacted 51 new abortion restrictions, for a total of 282 since 2010.

    It is the anti-abortion climate that occupies a large part of public discourse that gives rise to attacks against clinics. With so much of the public discourse demonising abortion, it is no wonder that some people come to believe that clinics are against God’s will or evil in general and decide to take violent means to eliminate them. It is irrational (what exactly does God have to do with abortion again?) but it happens.

    And when terrorist acts are committed by white people or Christians, they rarely produce the same sensationalist media coverage. For example, white terrorists are described as “troubled loners” whereas Muslim terrorists are often suspected of being part of a global conspiracy.

    Family and relatives of white terrorists are interviewed as they wonder what went wrong, telling us they cannot understand why their son or husband did what he did, whereas relatives of other terrorists are never interviewed.

    Also, there’s apparently nothing that can be done to stop white terrorists because they’re bad apples that don’t represent any broader trend, whereas Muslim terrorists can be bombed and police forces boosted to deal with them.

    Double standards are thus the rule in public discourse about terrorism.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Remember the chap on CNN who started the whole Starbucks Christmas cup nonsense?.

    He previously called for abortion doctors in planned parenthood clinics to be "hunted"....he's since deleted his video where he said this.
    People are rightly so now calling for him to be arrested, he's no different to a Muslim calling for anyone else to be hunted.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    I'm quite happy to see quite a lot of different sources call these kind of attacks out for what they are, terrorism. There is unifying ideology at play here, and the christian conservative Republicans, far right pundits, Fox and Brietbart and "news" outlets of their ilk have been fanning the flames of this for a long time.

    But like Ted Cruz above, they are masters of deflection.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭robdonn


    Originally posted by frag420 in the Christianity forum:
    frag420 wrote: »
    The High Court in Belfast rules abortion legislation in Northern Ireland is in breach of human rights laws

    More to follow no doubt..........


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-34963159


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    robdonn wrote: »
    Originally posted by frag420 in the Christianity forum:

    The judge talked alot of sense
    If it is morally wrong to abort a foetus in Northern Ireland, it is just as wrong morally to abort the same foetus in England. It does not protect morals to export the problem to another jurisdiction and then turn a blind eye.

    If the aim is to prevent abortion, then it is surely no answer to say that abortion is freely available elsewhere and that necessary services can be easily accessed in an adjacent jurisdiction.

    There is no evidence before this court, and the court has in no way attempted to restrict the evidence adduced by any party, that the law in Northern Ireland has resulted in any reduction in the number of abortions obtained by Northern Irish women.

    Undoubtedly, it will have placed these women who had to have their abortions in England under greater stress, both financial and emotional, by forcing them to have the termination carried out away from home.

    There can be no doubt that the law has made i it much more difficult for those with limited means to travel to England. They are the ones who are more likely to be greatly affected in their ability to terminate their pregnancy if they cannot obtain charitable assistance.

    The protection of morals should not contemplate a restriction that bites on the impoverished but not the wealthy. That smacks of one law for the rich and one law for the poor.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Cabaal wrote: »
    The judge talked alot of sense

    Judges frequently come in for a lot of stick, but generally they do talk a lot of sense, even when one might not agree with the result.

    It will be interest to see what happens now. The law still stands. The court has simply said it is incompatible. Now there needs to be legislation to fix the incompatibility, but I am guessing the assembly will be in no hurry to pass it...

    MrP


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Of course the media won't call him what he likely is, a christian terrorist. If he looked middle eastern they'd have called him a Muslim terrorist by now

    In fairness - according to one news report he told a neighbour that he should get a steel roof because that would stop the Government spying on him.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    MrPudding wrote: »
    Judges frequently come in for a lot of stick, but generally they do talk a lot of sense, even when one might not agree with the result.

    It will be interest to see what happens now. The law still stands. The court has simply said it is incompatible. Now there needs to be legislation to fix the incompatibility, but I am guessing the assembly will be in no hurry to pass it...

    MrP

    Was a similar challenge brought here? I thought there was and it was "thrun out", to use the legal terminology.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Nodin wrote: »
    Was a similar challenge brought here? I thought there was and it was "thrun out", to use the legal terminology.
    Not sure. Now might be a good time to submit a new challenge. UK court decisions are clearly not binding on Irish courts, but they can be influential. Getting a similar result in Ireland would be very different to this result...

    I have not done consti law for a while, but there are some fundamental differences between the UK and Ireland in this area. The SC in Ireland can strike down legislation. The SC in the UK (and this wasn't even the SC) cannot strike down legislation. The most it can do is declare particular legislation as incompatible with whatever it is incompatible with.

    The legislature then needs to withdraw the legislation, or rewrite it to be compatible. IIRC there is a fast-track process available to the legislature to redo the legislation, but they are really under any obligation to use it, or even do anything about the incompatibility.

    So, technically, this decision has no legal effect in NI. If the Irish SC came to a similar conclusion it could actually have legal effect.

    MrP


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Nodin wrote: »
    In fairness - according to one news report he told a neighbour that he should get a steel roof because that would stop the Government spying on him.

    So he's paranoid so he should be ignored? :confused:

    He has a following, he's no different to a Muslim preacher asking for American's to be hunted. Should we ignore them if they are also paranoid?

    No doubt he's also a tin foil hat wearing person also, of course those in the know release tinfoil hats only make the signals work better!

    http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2012/09/tin-foil-hats-actually-make-it-easier-for-the-government-to-track-your-thoughts/262998/
    In 2005, a group of MIT students, prodded by "a desire to play with some expensive equipment," tested the effectiveness of foil helmets at blocking various radio frequencies. Using two layers of Reynolds aluminum foil, they constructed three helmet designs, dubbed the Classical, the Fez, and the Centurion, and then looked at the strength of the transmissions between a radio-frequency signal generator and a receiver antenna placed on various parts of their subjects' bare and helmet-covered heads.

    The helmets shielded their wearers from radio waves over most of the tested spectrum (YouTube user Mrfixitrick likewise demonstrates the blocking power of his foil toque against his wireless modem) but, surprisingly, amplified certain frequencies: those in the 2.6 Ghz ( allocated for mobile communications and broadcast satellites) and 1.2 Ghz (allocated for aeronautical radionavigation and space-to-Earth and space-to-space satellites) bands.

    While the MIT guys' tongue-in-cheek conclusion -- "the current helmet craze is likely to have been propagated by the Government, possibly with the involvement of the FCC" -- maybe goes a few steps too far, their study at least shows that foil helmets fail at, and even counteract, their intended purpose. That, or the students are aliens who fabricated these results in an effort to get you to take your perfectly functional helmet off.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Cabaal wrote: »
    So he's paranoid so he should be ignored? :confused:

    .............

    Well to me equating a steel roof to not being spied on by the Government indicates being a header rather than paranoid within the boundaries of rationality or anything like it.. Also
    "Other former neighbors told the AP that Dear hid food in the woods, sometimes lived in a cabin in North Carolina with no electricity or running water and said he made a living off selling prints of his uncle's paintings of Southern plantations and the Masters golf tournament.
    James Russell, who lived near Dear's cabin told the AP that alleged gunman tended to avoid eye contact, but if he did communicate, he mostly rambled about things that didn't make sense. "If you talked to him, nothing with him was very cognitive," Russell said. "
    http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/planned-parenthood-shooting-suspect-made-comment-about-no-more-baby-n470706


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Nodin wrote: »
    [...] "If you talked to him, nothing with him was very cognitive [...]
    That does not distinguish him from the other men and women running for the Republican presidential ticket.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    robindch wrote: »
    That does not distinguish him from the other men and women running for the Republican presidential ticket.

    True. I will therefore cite his lack of personal wealth to distinguish him from the people trying to get their hands on the red button.


This discussion has been closed.
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