Another take on speed checks?

bottletops · 24-06-2008 10:06am #1

I know there has been a lot of comment and discussion on road safety
and garda enforcement of the rules of the road, but please take a
minute to read my take on it.

One of the biggest issues we seem to have at the moment is peoples
complete lack of respect for our Garda force. This is a sad situation
but I feel that their enforcement techniques have caused this problem.
I have, quite a few times, spotted what I can only describe as bizarre
situations where Gardaí are setting up speed camera's pointing at
people leaving towns and heading out onto the open roads. Only this
morning I spotted a Garda with a laser on a tripod standing directly
in front of a 100kmph speed limit sign catching traffic leaving the
town!!. If they wanted to increase road safety do you
not think they would have that laser pointed at people entering town
to make sure they slow down enough. I'm no expert but I'm sure that
speeding in towns is far more dangerous than catching people
increasing their speed 100 meters to early leaving a town? I have on
six separate occasions rang six different garda stations questioning
these techniques, as I've seen this done throughout the country, but
each time have been told "we can do what we want". This is a disgrace.

So what happens next? Everyone get sick of the sneaky techniques of
our Garda force. The Gardaí are constantly now seen as trying to do us
over and "get us" in the slyest way possible. We wouldn't tolerate our
friends and colleagues doing this to us and therefore, as a nation, we
loose all respect for a shoddy, lazy, sneaky police force.

I don't think the Gardaí at the side of the road are the problem
though. They are hard working professionals trying to do the job and
hit the targets handed down to them from the idiots at the top. So can
the Garda boss's please sort out their traffic corps strategy. Make
some changes to the way you are policing. Let the guards on the ground
enforce proper road safety. Let the gardaí on the ground target the
unsafe, dangerous and incompetent drivers out there. Then maybe we
will start to respect them again and appreciate that they are actually
there to help us as a nation, protect our safety and bring down road
crashes and deaths.

Opinions?

Pete67 · 24-06-2008 10:21am

I'll probably get flamed for this, but how hard is it to refrain from putting the boot down until you have passed the end of speed limit / 100kph sign when leaving a built up area?

Why do you consider it 'sneaky' for a guard to enforce existing speed limits where ever they choose to?

The point of enforcement is to modify driver behaviour. If you consider that you can exceed speed limits because you are leaving a town / the weather is good / the road is straight / you have above average driving skills / the speed limit is inappropriate / insert you favorite excuse here then you are fair game for enforcement and you have to take the consequences of your actions. If you do it enough times to accumulate points, then eventually you will either modify your behaviour or lose your licence.

The guards can easily argue that driving in excess of the posted speed limit is unsafe behaviour and therefore they are doing exactly what you are requesting in targeting it.

bottletops · 24-06-2008 10:27am

Pete67 wrote: »

Why do you consider it 'sneaky' for a guard to enforce existing speed limits where ever they choose to?

I find it sneaky because if the Garda turned around 180 degrees and pointed the camera in the other direction it would do a lot more for road safety.... but wouldn't "earn" half as many tickets.

mikewest · 24-06-2008 10:44am

+1. Where they are concerned with road safety and reducing speed they can and do implement other measures but that crap only pisses people off because it is purely designed to catch marginal offenders. On a certain road I use regularly the traffic corps park a vehicle in a high visibilty point and the mere sight of it slows down the real muppets to legal speeds. They only check for speeding there on odd occasions but it improves safety in that area a lot.

Zube · 24-06-2008 11:11am

Pete67 wrote: »

The point of enforcement is to modify driver behaviour.

So I modify my behaviour how? I slow down when leaving a town where a guard might be lurking. When I drive from a crappy back road onto a nice clear dual carriageway, I slow down and watch for guards. I drive more slowly in good weather, since they never speed-trap in the rain. Before 9 in the morning and after 5, you can ignore limits as they don't usually speed-trap on overtime. I slow down whenever an oncoming driver flashes me.

None of this has anything to do with road safety, in fact most of it flies in the face of reason, but, hey, so does the guards policy.

Marcus.Aurelius · 24-06-2008 11:18am

Zube wrote: »

None of this has anything to do with road safety, in fact most of it flies in the face of reason, but, hey, so does the guards policy.

I agree with your post in principle. But you cannot overlook the fact that policy is not decided by Gardaí, sergeants, inspectors, superintendents or even C/Supts, but by Assistant Commissioners and politicians. And they're the ones who demand return quotas etc.

Pete67 · 24-06-2008 11:28am

bottletops wrote: »

I find it sneaky because if the Garda turned around 180 degrees and pointed the camera in the other direction it would do a lot more for road safety.... but wouldn't "earn" half as many tickets.

I don't agree. Very few serious RTAs (those resulting in fatalities) occur in built up areas. Most occur on open roads where excess speed is a factor. The guards are perfectly entitled to go after this behaviour.

Marcus.Aurelius · 24-06-2008 11:32am

Let's be honest. Speeding doesn't kill people when they go 10 or even 20 kph over the limit. Driving at 120 kph on a 100 kph road in all likelihood won't cause you to burst into flames and kill 5000 people as you spin your way into St Peter's gates in a fireball.

Silly speeding will probably kill people. Driving at 120 on a 80 kph road. Driving at 150 kph on a 100 kph road. That's silly. Driving at 50 kph around a residential estate can be dangerous too. the speed limit system is ridiculous, blanket speed limits are stupid.

And the speedo-watching is bloody dangerous as it is. People are so busy watching the wee needle they miss the 50 car pileup in front. (Naas N7 pileup last year).

All watching the needle instead of driving according to the quality and condition of the road. A nation of needle watching, quivering cowards, just like the driver testing system wants.

tomred1 · 24-06-2008 11:51am

You are giving out about the Guards stopping you from speeding, to me they are doing there job then. You more than likely have to slow down when entering a town as there would be more traffic.
As far as needle watching, you don't need to needle watch if your a good driver you should know how to keep your car at a certain speed without needle watching.

Pete67 · 24-06-2008 12:00pm

Speeding never killed anybody. Collisions kill people, and the impact of a collision increases dramatically with speed. Doubling speed results in 4 times the severity of impact. This is why guards target speed where possible. If you consistently exceed speed limits you will eventually get caught, because sooner or later you won't see a speedtrap, or there won't be another driver to flash you a warning.

If you consistently exceed speed limits on back roads, of course then you increase your risk of joining the hundreds of people who die every year thinking that accidents happen to other people, or the thousands of others who are severely injured. Its Darwinism at work. Unfortunately that is little comfort for the families and friends who are left behind to mourn.

Marcus.Aurelius · 24-06-2008 12:08pm

Pete67 wrote: »

If you consistently exceed speed limits on back roads, of course then you increase your risk of joining the hundreds of people who die every year thinking that accidents happen to other people, or the thousands of others who are severely injured.

I think you'll find the statistics disagree.

And we could save more lives by showing people how to drive correctly and safely rather than the archaic "ah sure it'll do" attitude. Speeding doesn't kill, stupidity kills.

bottletops · 24-06-2008 12:18pm

Thanks for all the replies.. I do think we miss the point a bit though..

With the limited resources of the Gardaí do we not think it would be better targeting the most dangerous area's before focusing on the likes of people leaving a town, on an road with no dangers, pedestrians, children, jay walkers etc etc.

What is gained by handing out speeding tickets to people doing, at most 20k over the 60kmph as they approach within 100 meters of the 100kmph sign?? Why aren't the Gardaí in the town, getting people who speed though it, blind to the children heading into the school, or why aren't they 2 miles the other direction, catching people over taking on the ghost islands?

Zube · 24-06-2008 12:19pm

Pete67 wrote: »

This is why guards target speed where possible.

No, as we keep pointing out, they target speed where it is easy and quick to catch large numbers of speeders.

If you consistently exceed speed limits you will eventually get caught, because sooner or later you won't see a speedtrap, or there won't be another driver to flash you a warning.

Sure, and I'll get a fine and some points. Twenty years driving, breaking the open road limit every day, still waiting.

bman · 24-06-2008 12:39pm

Marcus.Aurelius wrote: »

And the speedo-watching is bloody dangerous as it is. People are so busy watching the wee needle they miss the 50 car pileup in front. (Naas N7 pileup last year).

All watching the needle instead of driving according to the quality and condition of the road. A nation of needle watching, quivering cowards, just like the driver testing system wants.

There have been a number of times I end up been too close to the person in front or didn't see something happen until it was almost too late because I'm watching the needle. I can easily see this been the cause of me having an accident rather than bad driving or inappropriate speed.

tomred1 wrote:

As far as needle watching, you don't need to needle watch if your a good driver you should know how to keep your car at a certain speed without needle watching.

That's a load of crap. You can't tell the difference between 100km/h and 105km/h unless your looking at your speedo every so often. The only people that don't "need" to look at their speedos are slow fe(kers who never go over 70% of the limit and people driving way too fast because the don't care about the speed limit.

tomred1 · 24-06-2008 1:32pm

bman wrote: »

That's a load of crap. You can't tell the difference between 100km/h and 105km/h unless your looking at your speedo every so often. The only people that don't "need" to look at their speedos are slow fe(kers who never go over 70% of the limit and people driving way too fast because the don't care about the speed limit.

Once you reach a speed which you want to keep it is easy to keep your foot still to hold it without needle watching.

Eoin · 24-06-2008 1:36pm

Marcus.Aurelius wrote: »

I agree with your post in principle. But you cannot overlook the fact that policy is not decided by Gardaí, sergeants, inspectors, superintendents or even C/Supts, but by Assistant Commissioners and politicians. And they're the ones who demand return quotas etc.

What policy is decided by Assistant Commissioners and politicians? Where speed traps are located?

RobAMerc · 24-06-2008 1:43pm

OP I think you have missed the point.

Speed traps are part of the governments stealth taxes and have nothing to do with road safety. If they did they would put them where they would catch inappropriate speed - such as outside schools etc, not where they will generate revenue.

Please note - just because the government says something does not mean its actually the case - particularly this government.

Omcd · 24-06-2008 1:56pm

tomred1 wrote: »

Once you reach a speed which you want to keep it is easy to keep your foot still to hold it without needle watching.

....On a flat road !

With older noiser cars you can get a good indication of constant speed through listening to engine note, but with modern quite cars you might not even be able to hear the engine, so it becomes more necessary to watch the needle.

Zube · 24-06-2008 2:02pm

The wife's new bus has cruise control, which I thought would be a waste of time in Ireland, but she says it's handy enough when tipping along the N6/M6/N4/M4/M50/M1 route to the airport, as the car itself is deceptively quiet at speed.

Eoin · 24-06-2008 2:04pm

Zube wrote: »

The wife's new bus has cruise control, which I thought would be a waste of time in Ireland, but she says it's handy enough when tipping along the N6/M6/N4/M4/M50/M1 route to the airport, as the car itself is deceptively quiet at speed.

I found cruise control pretty handy on any road, where you could make constant progress (even a 50 zone). I really hope to get it retro-fitted to my new car, as I really used it a lot.

Marcus.Aurelius · 24-06-2008 2:22pm

eoin_s wrote: »

What policy is decided by Assistant Commissioners and politicians? Where speed traps are located?

Actually, no, usually that's in the remit of the inspector/supt. Problem is the returns quota. It has to be got somehow. Very irresponsible system I think.

cavanmaniac · 24-06-2008 2:22pm

Totally agree with those expressing the point of view re:guards taking the soft options on speed checks.

It is patently obvious to anyone with a brain that guards constantly hiding gatso vans on three-lane 60km/hr stretches (near Dublin airport for example) is about one thing, and that's €€€€€€€. Definitely not road safety. How fining somebody doing 70km/hr on a big wide road instead of 60km/hr actively does anything to prevent accidents is beyond me. It's sly, sneaky and just gets people offside to be getting caught for such marginal offences when worse go unpunished and undetected.

The exclusive policing of 60 and 80km/hr stretches of wide, safe dual carriage way while nut job drivers on narrow, twisty, poorly surfaced back roads are given carte blanche to drive how they like, also underlines this point. This is just lazy, shooting-fish-in-a-barrel policing to earn handy cash for the government and allow the Garda statisticians to blow smoke out their arses about X% of penalty points handed out in a certain period of time, and Joe Public goes off thinking what a rigorous and wide ranging job the boys in blue are doing as regards speeding.

Bottom line is that speeding is being used a revenue-generating exscuse by government and Gardai are only worried about filling quotas and have no real interest in policing speeding and dangerous driving where, not to mention when (late on weekend nights) it occurs most often.

And then Gardai wonder why they get attitude off the public.

bottletops · 24-06-2008 2:52pm

tomred1 wrote: »

Once you reach a speed which you want to keep it is easy to keep your foot still to hold it without needle watching.

Do you even drive?? Are you saying that if you keep your foot still your speed stays exactly the same?? Maybe in Holland where its all flat eh? :rolleyes:

blackbox · 24-06-2008 3:02pm

bottletops wrote: »

Do you even drive?? Are you saying that if you keep your foot still your speed stays exactly the same?? Maybe in Holland where its all flat eh? :rolleyes:

No - I've driven in Holland and it doesn't work there either!

Omcd · 24-06-2008 7:43pm

Zube wrote: »

The wife's new bus has cruise control, which I thought would be a waste of time in Ireland, but she says it's handy enough when tipping along the N6/M6/N4/M4/M50/M1 route to the airport, as the car itself is deceptively quiet at speed.

I'm surprised ! My experience on the roads I drive on, primarily the M7, N3 and M50, its impossible to keep any sort of constant speed (other than snail pace) cos very few others appear to be able to keep a constant and are all over the road, trying to keep to 65 in old money for a 100k dual carraigeway road involves constantly moving between those on the left whose speed varies erratically between 55 and 70 and those on right whose speed is 70 - 100+, so I too thought cruise control would be fairly useless here most of the time, so I didn't bother mentioning it. But, thats just my opinion, I've never used it.

Having had a nerve racking experience driving through the centre of Bristol one dark evening, with speed camera warnings going off every 5 seconds and speed camera grids popping up every few hundred yards, and at the same time trying to concentrate on signs, road markings, traffic lights, what other traffic was doing, cars parked in traffic lanes, and jaywalking pedestrians (not to mention trying not to look overwhelmed to the police car that just happened to be behind) I seriously subscribe to the notion that too many speed cameras in urban areas reduce the drivers concentration on other more important things. Its the fear of accidently momentarily straying a small bit over the limit while concentrating on some other aspect of driving and so being flashed by a camera that keeps drivers eyes practically fixed on the needle when concentration should be elsewhere.

Never though I'd say this, but I think ramps and chicanes are far safer urban options, anything that makes it impossible to speed in the first place. A speed camera before a pedestrian crossing I dont think is a safe thing. IMO Portlaoise is a good example of safe speed control where there are numerous pedestrian crossings raised on top of well marked ramps, so the thing that you see that is persuading you to slow down significantly is actually the same thing where the pedestrians may be, and you can't go over it at 60k+ unless you want to wreak your car.

Keith186 · 24-06-2008 8:17pm

Pete67 wrote: »

I don't agree. Very few serious RTAs (those resulting in fatalities) occur in built up areas. Most occur on open roads where excess speed is a factor. The guards are perfectly entitled to go after this behaviour.

That's the OP's point by the way. He wants the Gardai to set up outside of town not just on the outskirts where the speed limit changes from 50km/h to 100km/h or else in the centre of the town. I would agree with you about speed traps in towns as there's usually too much traffic to speed.

Also in relation to your other point about catching people speeding in the fashion mentioned in the second post so they will have fear of speeding in future is not a valid one. If Gardai are going to be posted outside in the same places outside towns etc. I would just go at the speed limit until I pass them and then go as fast as I want safe in the knowledge that there won't be another speed check until the next town at least. This is where most of the accidents are likely to be happening and the nanny state approach won't ever solve anything like road deaths unless they take a heavier handed approach and ban 18-25 yr old males from driving on Fri-Sun in the evening which isn't going to happen.

Assistant Commissioner Eddie Rock is frequently heard on the radio saying that only 20% of people speeding are caught on motorways, an arguement he uses to dispell the 'shooting fish in a barrell' philosophy that road users give out about.
What he forgets to mention or won't mention is how many people are caught whilst driving on a dual carraige way which are essentially built to the same standard as most Irish motorways. I always see them on the N3 dual carraige area which is one of the safest roads I've ever drove on, I definitely feel saver driving at 120km/h on that than I would on the M50 pre-upgrade.

What would make most speeders slow down is getting caught on the backroads a couple of times when they least expect it, this way they won't know where they might come across one in future and will more likely obey a speed limit. If I had 10 points and it felt safe enough to break the speed limit on a back road I wouldn't have a hesitation as there's no chance of getting caught these days and that's what's needed along with some good Garda discretion, say let the odd person off who may be a little over speed limit provided they have a decent attitude to road safety when pulled over.

Flyer1 · 24-06-2008 8:24pm

I'll agree the gardai do speed traps in STUPID places, i.e. on the N25 to Cork they only seem to speed trap in the area's where the speed limit was dropped to 60km/h which is plain ridiculous. You never see them out where John Monroe in his 5 series beamer goes tonking past 15 cars at 100mph. I drive a hell of a lot, and i'll say that undoubtedly, business type's with A6's, big beamers are by far the worst offenders.

bryanmurr · 24-06-2008 8:28pm

Zube wrote: »

Before 9 in the morning and after 5, you can ignore limits as they don't usually speed-trap on overtime.

.

You surely realise its not a 9-5 job? and that any time outside that is not O/T

DemonOfTheFall · 24-06-2008 8:33pm

I agree, the traps near me will generally be at say 9pm or so.

bryanmurr · 24-06-2008 8:33pm

Zube wrote: »

Sure, and I'll get a fine and some points. Twenty years driving, breaking the open road limit every day, still waiting.

Congratulations, you must be very proud!:rolleyes:

Keith186 · 24-06-2008 8:34pm

Flyer1 wrote: »

I drive a hell of a lot, and i'll say that undoubtedly, business type's with A6's, big beamers are by far the worst offenders.

Worst offenders for speeding maybe but sometimes they have to overtake 5 in a row because idiots just bunch up behind the slow car and won't overtake it making everyone else have to overtake a bunch of cars. This is one of the most annoying things I see whn driving on the road. Particulary people driving with caravans and horseboxes should move in a little to allow people to overtake more safely.

Another take on speed checks?

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