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A discussion on the rules.

1111214161754

Comments

  • Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Silas Salmon Buckle


    there's plenty of discussion on israel

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056439268

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056309460


    Dr Galen wrote: »
    In any case, we do try and set a standard for threads from the very beginning. This sometimes means that threds get nipped in the bud. The OP of any thread here, needs to be of sufficient standard to warrant staying open.
    Exactly. and a one-liner under a link generally doesn't cut it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    bluewolf wrote: »
    there's plenty of discussion on israel

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056439268

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056309460


    Exactly. and a one-liner under a link generally doesn't cut it.

    In fairness it would be off-topic in either of those threads. I do think the OP was probably not good enough as OP and the mods are being consistent in this regard but the post doesn't belong in the other Israel threads either really.


  • Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭bedrock#1


    Dr Galen wrote: »
    Just out of interest, seeing as you've posted a sum total of 4 times in this forum, would it be safe to assume that you are more a reader of the forum than a poster?

    In any case, we do try and set a standard for threads from the very beginning. This sometimes means that threds get nipped in the bud. The OP of any thread here, needs to be of sufficient standard to warrant staying open.

    so in your infinitely wise opinion the number of posts I have made in the past means I have no right to post now or in the future??

    Or perhaps my posts don't deserve the same respect as others?


  • Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭bedrock#1


    bluewolf wrote: »
    there's plenty of discussion on israel

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056439268

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056309460




    Exactly. and a one-liner under a link generally doesn't cut it.

    Why exactly?? there doesn't seem to me to be a logical reason for this.

    There is no set formula for beginning discussions. The strength of the post in and of itself can be enough to begin a quality discussion. Which brings me back to my original point -

    Mods should ban trouble makers and stop suppressing open debate by people who have something they feel like they must say.

    Just like Dr.G above..... Maybe if he had critically assessed my post he might have concluded that yes I have only posted 4 times (more actually but the threads have disappeared - like the politics in school one from 2 days ago), the fact I felt compelled to log in a contribute might mean I have a genuine point to make......

    Get a grip folks....


  • Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Silas Salmon Buckle


    bedrock#1 wrote: »
    so in your infinitely wise opinion the number of posts I have made in the past means I have no right to post now or in the future??

    Who said you didn't have a right to post? If you didn't have a right to post, you'd be banned from the forum, and you don't look banned to me.


    In any case, the charter clearly states what's acceptable:
    Topics should be relevant to the politics board.

    Topics should not be verbatim quotes from some article without comment from the thread starter. Add a comment before or after the post, offering your opinion on the subject, or at the very least, your reason for adding the topic.

    Please remember that we are not a blog, a news feed nor an announcement forum - if you are not willing to discuss what you post, then please don't post it.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055516094

    If you want to start up a new thread on israel that doesn't belong in the others (which I was just quoting as an example of israel threads that have plenty of discussion) then do so, just put a bit of substance into it and we can go from there. One liner OPs often lead to a string of one-liner posts without any discussion, and I'm not banning everyone for following an OP's lead.
    We can hardly be accused of suppressing debate when there was no debate to suppress in the first place.


  • Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭bedrock#1


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Who said you didn't have a right to post? If you didn't have a right to post, you'd be banned from the forum, and you don't look banned to me.

    Why then does my posting record have anything to with this discussion? It doesn't even deserve a mention, yet it was the first line of the other mod Dr.Galen's post.....

    bluewolf wrote: »
    In any case, the charter clearly states what's acceptable:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055516094

    If you want to start up a new thread on israel that doesn't belong in the others (which I was just quoting as an example of israel threads that have plenty of discussion) then do so, just put a bit of substance into it and we can go from there. One liner OPs often lead to a string of one-liner posts without any discussion, and I'm not banning everyone for following an OP's lead.
    We can hardly be accused of suppressing debate when there was no debate to suppress in the first place.

    The thread in question did begin with a one line post but the reason given for closing it wasn't to do with that. It was the personal opinion of the mod that

    Dr GalenThis won't end well, so let's just end it now, before it all gets out of hand

    OP - A "witty" one liner does not an OP make, Bear that in mind for future threads


    The OP wasn't "witty" (white phosphorus is anything but witty) and the fact it might have gotten out of hand seems to me to be more a reflection of the mods on this forum not being capable of keeping threads on track.

    Or god-forbid adults might make their own mind up about which threads to reply to and which ones not to.... :eek:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭Duke Leonal Felmet


    Without reading the whole thread, here is my view. You could have a three tier general politics forum.

    1) Politics Cafe - Lightly modded, bit of a laugh

    2) Politics - As it is now, with veiled personal insults the norm

    3) Politics Serious - Strictly modded. Any veiled insults, baseless statements with no evidence or link or generalising 'lefties are idiots, etc' leads to lengthy ban. The aim is to facilitate civil discourse without it being derailed by hysterical drama queens.

    I'd imagine this has been suggested already, but so many pages...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    bedrock#1 wrote: »
    Why then does my posting record have anything to with this discussion? It doesn't even deserve a mention, yet it was the first line of the other mod Dr.Galen's post.....

    I'm merely interested, as the opinion of someone who doesn't post very much, but reads a the forum a lot, could be very different to that of someone who posts 50 times day. Doesn't make it better or worse, just different, and generally differences of opinion are a good thing.


    The thread in question did begin with a one line post but the reason given for closing it wasn't to do with that. It was the personal opinion of the mod that

    Dr GalenThis won't end well, so let's just end it now, before it all gets out of hand

    OP - A "witty" one liner does not an OP make, Bear that in mind for future threads


    You've quoted my post, which outlines the 2 reasons for closing the thread though. When before the first page is out, we can see the usual trenches being dug and manned in these types of threads, we know how they are going to end up. Nipping these in the bud is actually what moderating is all about. It's not about riding in on the white charger, 14 pages in, and lashing out the ban-hammer, medieval style, and throwing out a load of people.
    The OP wasn't "witty" (white phosphorus is anything but witty) and the fact it might have gotten out of hand seems to me to be more a reflection of the mods on this forum not being capable of keeping threads on track.

    Or god-forbid adults might make their own mind up about which threads to reply to and which ones not to.... :eek:

    This forum is not a braindump for posters to come in and create threads about whatever takes their fancy. If people want to do that the, as many a better Mod/Admin has said, get a blog.

    Other than that, I've no issue with any threads, regardless of my own political views.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    " Don't be a dick. "
    If moderator s are going to be posting this kind of comment to the applause of other mods, then it is time for moderators to take a good hard look at themsleves.
    The term ' Moderator' should at least imply moderators refrain from abusive vulgarities.


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  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    anymore wrote: »
    " Don't be a dick. "
    If moderator s are going to be posting this kind of comment to the applause of other mods, then it is time for moderators to take a good hard look at themsleves.
    The term ' Moderator' should at least imply moderators refrain from abusive vulgarities.
    If you consider a widely-used Internet meme such as "don't be a dick" to be an abusive vulgarity, perhaps you could do with some introspection of your own.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    anymore wrote: »
    " Don't be a dick. "
    If moderator s are going to be posting this kind of comment to the applause of other mods, then it is time for moderators to take a good hard look at themsleves.
    The term ' Moderator' should at least imply moderators refrain from abusive vulgarities.

    Um, the number one golden rule on this site is "Don't be a dick." You can blame one of the founders DeVore for introducing it into the lexicon.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,286 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Actually, I would consider 'don't be a dick' to be abusive vulgarity. It is a negative way of saying you are a dick.

    Is 'don't be an asshole' fine or 'don't be a twat'?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Actually, I would consider 'don't be a dick' to be abusive vulgarity. It is a negative way of saying you are a dick.

    Is 'don't be an asshole' fine or 'don't be a twat'?

    It's part of the culture of the site. It's long been used as a pithy way of summing up the ethos here and what is expected of users. Might not be to everyone's tastes but it is part of our history on here and like Atari Jaguar and similar will pop up now and then.

    Anyway, when I use it it's not intended as an insult. It's pretty much the same as when I tell users to cop themselves on and similar.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,286 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    I think it is fine saying DBAD as a way of conducting yourself on the site. A different thing if you retort to someones post with a DBAD

    Edit: I had not encountered it on the site before and I had plenty of reason to earlier on!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    I think it is fine saying DBAD as a way of conducting yourself on the site. A different thing if you retort to someones post with a DBAD

    Edit: I had not encountered it on the site before and I had plenty of reason to earlier on!

    Depends which mods you meet it's a bit of an old timer thing from a time when people weren't so damn politically correct on this site. :p


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Oh and from the site FAQ:
    Be Civil (Don't be a dick)

    The internet is full of anonymous keyboard warriors being rude to each other. We don’t want that here. We're not saying you have to be super-nice to everyone and sign each post with a little heart, but we DO require that you are at least CIVIL to the humans on the other end of this intertube. Everyone is tired of the muppets online and if you feel you must be a dick to others, you aren’t welcome here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Actually, I would consider 'don't be a dick' to be abusive vulgarity. It is a negative way of saying you are a dick.

    Is 'don't be an asshole' fine or 'don't be a twat'?

    No, we should celebrate Irish culture by changing it to 'Don't be a fucking gobshite' which is the kind of language used on a daily basis in this country. This will inevitably lead to research to finally define what a gobshite is for the benefit of our non-national members. We win, science wins. Happy days.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    :)After Bluewolfs latest ridiculous warning to me on the usual anti israeli thread, I have asked him to cancel my account, so goodbye all. A little bias is fine even funny, but really ordinary posters actually have other alternatives. It is not that surprising, Boards politicial is sinking into obscurity.
    Bye all and happy Xmas, Scofflaw - please cancel my account - no hard feelings ! :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    anymore wrote: »
    :)After Bluewolfs latest ridiculous warning to me on the usual anti israeli thread, I have asked him to cancel my account, so goodbye all. A little bias is fine even funny, but really ordinary posters actually have other alternatives. It is not that surprising, Boards politicial is sinking into obscurity.
    Bye all and happy Xmas, Scofflaw - please cancel my account - no hard feelings ! :)
    I don't think bluewolf wields that kind of power. Unless she's holding out on us!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    anymore wrote: »
    :)After Bluewolfs latest ridiculous warning to me on the usual anti israeli thread, I have asked him to cancel my account, so goodbye all. A little bias is fine even funny, but really ordinary posters actually have other alternatives. It is not that surprising, Boards politicial is sinking into obscurity.
    Bye all and happy Xmas, Scofflaw - please cancel my account - no hard feelings ! :)

    You'll have to email hello@boards.ie from the email registered with the account.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    You control that yourself through the control panel nowadays


  • Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Silas Salmon Buckle


    I don't think bluewolf wields that kind of power. Unless she's holding out on us!

    I'm just waiting for the right moment...


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,225 ✭✭✭Yitzhak Rabin


    anymore wrote: »
    :)After Bluewolfs latest ridiculous warning to me on the usual anti israeli thread, I have asked him to cancel my account, so goodbye all. A little bias is fine even funny, but really ordinary posters actually have other alternatives. It is not that surprising, Boards politicial is sinking into obscurity.
    Bye all and happy Xmas, Scofflaw - please cancel my account - no hard feelings ! :)

    Click on the control panel. Click on close account. No need for the drama. See ya when you rereg pal.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    yekahS wrote: »
    Click on the control panel. Click on close account. No need for the drama. See ya when you rereg pal.
    I just can't quit you boards!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    I don't think bluewolf wields that kind of power. Unless she's holding out on us!

    In fact four of the five warnings I have received since Sept have been from Blue wolf and as none of them followed on from any grave offence, I think it is fair to suggest that Blue wolf has her own agenda here. Is she particularly close to Noddy who of course has posted his/her thanks to Bluewolf. Or maybe it is my refusal to swallow much of the usual politicall correct nonsesne that is spouted on so many threads ?.
    My highlighting the hyprocisy in the censorship that allowed 3 of the Norris Presidential threads to be closed before the election of course probably didnt endear me to the moderators involved. The catholic Church would have been proud of this kind of politicial censorship !
    It seems to be often the case that people get warnings if they have upset moderators even though moderators themselves appear to be allowed to behave as badly as they wish. As a matter of routine moderators can be snide, insulting and provocative in thier posts and their fellow moderators ignore it. I have made this point several times myself in the past and the stock reply ' Report the post' Which is just a cop out for allowing some moderators, and I mean some, to act like mangy dogs around a bone when they are insulting ordinary posters. Why is that so often you see moderators posting ' Thanks' when some ordinary poster gets a warning or infraction ? Is that not provocative inflammatory behaviour ? For example, we do not see linesmen jumping up and down in delight when refs hand out red or yellow cards do we ? No, linesmen and other officials are expected to be detached and neutral. No such guidelines seem to apply on Boards. I would have thought the standard of behaviour required from moderators would be much higher than that expected from ordinary members. Yet in some cases, and again I say in some cases, moderator's standards fall below that of many ordinary members. In here, in the rules thread, you see examples of a kind of mob mentality displayed by some moderators.
    Some threads seem to be treated as being particularly sensitive and some posters appear to be very very sensitive to comments passed about themselves but feel they can be as rude, inflammatory and provocative as they like. Poster Nodin as one of these - and yet moderators, some of them, are very happy to take a one sided view and hand out warnings to order when some of our 'sensitive 'posters inparticular get upset and report posts. I mean, I say again, I see the funny side and as I am leaving it doesnt really matter that much to me. And I said before the owners of the site can develop it any way they please, (this is private enterprise after all. I know that the thought of private enterprise is anathema to some people !) But the reality is that if Boards.ie political were a stand alone site, it would have failed. It is all the other sections on Boards that keeps Boards Pol alive.
    Consider this, there are days when it is mainly moderators of one kind or another posting on boards POls. So if you ignore the number of moderators who are posting on the Politics, and if you ignore the small number of posters who have several identities on Boards, then how many ordinary people are left ? Not that manyI would say.
    As for Nesf and what is traditional - you really mean you can as abusive as you like and then you climb up on your 'High moral ground' soapbox. Sorry that is far far too transparent. You are a moderator- if you are being provacative- it is you who are the problem. My advice, take a break from being a moderator for a while, switch off the computer for a while and take a period to readjust. :)
    Now I will try agian to cancel account.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    yekahS wrote: »
    Click on the control panel. Click on close account. No need for the drama. See ya when you rereg pal.
    No yekah, I am afriad I wont be reregistering - - as I said there are plaenty o other alternatives, P.Ie being jsut one. I have had my time here and it is time to move on.Happy Xamas.
    getting off here is almost as difficult as stopping being a member of the catholic church - funny that isnt it ? :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    Mr Scofflaw, the message below keeps coming up when I try to close the account.
    Can you please Cordially sort this out for me ?
    Cordially yours,
    Anymore

    anymore, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:
    1. You may be trying to post in a restricted forum such as Soccer, or one of the many private forums on boards.ie.
      For clarification, check our Help Desk forum.
    2. You may be banned from this forum if you contravened an element of the forum charter.
    3. Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
    4. If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    anymore wrote: »
    Mr Scofflaw, the message below keeps coming up when I try to close the account.
    Can you please Cordially sort this out for me ?
    Cordially yours,
    Anymore

    anymore, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:
    1. You may be trying to post in a restricted forum such as Soccer, or one of the many private forums on boards.ie.
      For clarification, check our Help Desk forum.
    2. You may be banned from this forum if you contravened an element of the forum charter.
    3. Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
    4. If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.
    Not all "moderators" are acting as such in that forum. When I post in Politics, I'm posting with the same rules and responsibilities as you.

    Secondly, neither Bluewolf nor Scofflaw can close your account. You need to do that yourself and if you cannot do so, contact an administrator.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    anymore wrote: »
    Mr Scofflaw, the message below keeps coming up when I try to close the account.
    Can you please Cordially sort this out for me ?
    Cordially yours,
    Anymore

    anymore, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:
    1. You may be trying to post in a restricted forum such as Soccer, or one of the many private forums on boards.ie.
      For clarification, check our Help Desk forum.
    2. You may be banned from this forum if you contravened an element of the forum charter.
    3. Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
    4. If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.

    Go to the control panel. ON the left hand side, right down the bottom there is an option called "close your account" click this, and follow the instructions.

    If for some reason that doesn't work, then you need to post in the Helpdesk forum for assistance, none of us can help with this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    anymore wrote: »
    In fact four of the five warnings I have received since Sept have been from Blue wolf and as none of them followed on from any grave offence, I think it is fair to suggest that Blue wolf has her own agenda here. Is she particularly close to Noddy who of course has posted his/her thanks to Bluewolf. Or maybe it is my refusal to swallow much of the usual politicall correct nonsesne that is spouted on so many threads ?.
    My highlighting the hyprocisy in the censorship that allowed 3 of the Norris Presidential threads to be closed before the election of course probably didnt endear me to the moderators involved. The catholic Church would have been proud of this kind of politicial censorship !
    It seems to be often the case that people get warnings if they have upset moderators even though moderators themselves appear to be allowed to behave as badly as they wish. As a matter of routine moderators can be snide, insulting and provocative in thier posts and their fellow moderators ignore it. I have made this point several times myself in the past and the stock reply ' Report the post' Which is just a cop out for allowing some moderators, and I mean some, to act like mangy dogs around a bone when they are insulting ordinary posters. Why is that so often you see moderators posting ' Thanks' when some ordinary poster gets a warning or infraction ? Is that not provocative inflammatory behaviour ? For example, we do not see linesmen jumping up and down in delight when refs hand out red or yellow cards do we ? No, linesmen and other officials are expected to be detached and neutral. No such guidelines seem to apply on Boards. I would have thought the standard of behaviour required from moderators would be much higher than that expected from ordinary members. Yet in some cases, and again I say in some cases, moderator's standards fall below that of many ordinary members. In here, in the rules thread, you see examples of a kind of mob mentality displayed by some moderators.
    Some threads seem to be treated as being particularly sensitive and some posters appear to be very very sensitive to comments passed about themselves but feel they can be as rude, inflammatory and provocative as they like. Poster Nodin as one of these - and yet moderators, some of them, are very happy to take a one sided view and hand out warnings to order when some of our 'sensitive 'posters inparticular get upset and report posts. I mean, I say again, I see the funny side and as I am leaving it doesnt really matter that much to me. And I said before the owners of the site can develop it any way they please, (this is private enterprise after all. I know that the thought of private enterprise is anathema to some people !) But the reality is that if Boards.ie political were a stand alone site, it would have failed. It is all the other sections on Boards that keeps Boards Pol alive.
    Consider this, there are days when it is mainly moderators of one kind or another posting on boards POls. So if you ignore the number of moderators who are posting on the Politics, and if you ignore the small number of posters who have several identities on Boards, then how many ordinary people are left ? Not that manyI would say.
    As for Nesf and what is traditional - you really mean you can as abusive as you like and then you climb up on your 'High moral ground' soapbox. Sorry that is far far too transparent. You are a moderator- if you are being provacative- it is you who are the problem. My advice, take a break from being a moderator for a while, switch off the computer for a while and take a period to readjust. :)
    Now I will try agian to cancel account.

    Any specific examples of what you are claiming above?

    As for Bluewolf having it in for you, well I know that is simply not the case. I've looked at the warnings etc that you have received and in fairness I would have done the same as Bluewolf in those situations. If anything Bluewolf has been a bit more lenient than I would have been tbh.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    If he has an issue he can take it to DRP and Dades will deal with it. Otherwise, if he's going to cancel his account I'd appreciate he didn't clutter this up with drama, thanks.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Sand wrote: »
    This sort of stupid scaremongering is exactly the path *not* to take. People are sick of being terrorised, theyre in a sullen and defiant mood already. Support for the fecking crazies (Sinn Fein and the ULA) is rising. If people are backed into a corner, and offered only threats, they'll deliver a massive No vote just to regain some control over their own lives.

    Whats the line on the rules on throw away lines like this?is it worthy of a report?read the feedback thread and decided to be more pro-active for reporting, but since its not a person or Beard/scumbag etc unsure where to draw line (because annoys me as some one who occasionally votes for these groups but its not really offense or in any way the main point of post at all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Whats the line on the rules on throw away lines like this?is it worthy of a report?read the feedback thread and decided to be more pro-active for reporting, but since its not a person or Beard/scumbag etc unsure where to draw line (because annoys me as some one who occasionally votes for these groups but its not really offense or in any way the main point of post at all.

    The other mods might take a harder line than I on this but I don't really have a problem with someone criticising parties in that way. It's no different to calling FG liars, FF corrupt or Labour Champagne Socialists.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    I've noticed in the past few weeks a distinct lack of moderation in Politics. I gave it the benefit of the doubt for Christmas and New Year; but now over half way into January and things haven't really improved.

    Obviously as a mod on boards, I know it's impossible to catch and respond to everything without making it a full time job; but I was thinking that Politics has 8 mods, 4 of whom are CMods of a huge number of fora and one is an Admin. That means there are only really 3 dedicated moderators for a forum the size of politics (which is astounding) and one of them seems to be relatively inactive.

    I'm not saying that CMods and Admins should give up their moderating duties on the basic level, but perhaps more dedicated mods would be useful?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    I've noticed in the past few weeks a distinct lack of moderation in Politics. I gave it the benefit of the doubt for Christmas and New Year; but now over half way into January and things haven't really improved.

    Obviously as a mod on boards, I know it's impossible to catch and respond to everything without making it a full time job; but I was thinking that Politics has 8 mods, 4 of whom are CMods of a huge number of fora and one is an Admin. That means there are only really 3 dedicated moderators for a forum the size of politics (which is astounding) and one of them seems to be relatively inactive.

    I'm not saying that CMods and Admins should give up their moderating duties on the basic level, but perhaps more dedicated mods would be useful?

    Already being dealt with.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    nesf wrote: »
    Already being dealt with.
    I'll be expecting a PM so... :P :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 485 ✭✭Hayte


    I can't say I've ever participated in a forum discussion that benefited from harsh sanctions. People have to want to talk about political issues discursively. They have to be capable of that and if not, discourse has to be explained and encouraged. People have to want to learn and grow, to understand problems they wouldn't otherwise think about.

    It is easy to tell people how not to post but it takes more effort to explain how they should post. You have to foster an environment that encourages the exchange of ideas not an environment where people avoid talking for fear of getting sanctioned.

    You need a sourcing policy and you need to explain why citation is important to trace how information changes and propagates back to a source that can bear responsibility for originating it. You need to encourage people not to even respond to specious argument because you don't need to refute claims that are unsubstantiated. You can and should ignore it. You need to be distanced enough from the subject matter under debate so you can see flaws in your own argument. That is difficult to do if you have vested interests in influencing the direction of the debate.

    Even if you address all of the issues above in meticulously written stickies, you can't count on people reading them and taking them to heart. In the end its something that people have to want to do themselves and if they don't you have to ask - why are you here if not to learn? All you can do is makethe information available and accessible and then the rest is up to the individual. Thats just the way it is I guess.

    I've participated in debate forums that are much more harshly moderated than this one and they aren't any better or worse in case you were wondering. Positive reinforcement usually works better than punishment for changing behavioral norms (see reinforcement theory). Trolling is a separate issue but I don't see much of that here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Hayte wrote: »
    I can't say I've ever participated in a forum discussion that benefited from harsh sanctions. People have to want to talk about political issues discursively. They have to be capable of that and if not, discourse has to be explained and encouraged. People have to want to learn and grow, to understand problems they wouldn't otherwise think about.

    It is easy to tell people how not to post but it takes more effort to explain how they should post. You have to foster an environment that encourages the exchange of ideas not an environment where people avoid talking for fear of getting sanctioned.
    As a moderator on a smaller forum, but one with posting issues as well, I can say you can tell people know to post until you're blue in the face - they will not do it. Some posters are like puppies and children; sometimes negative reinforcement works better.

    We have a for sale thread with clearly posted directions and warnings. I've said a million times that people need to follow the directions and nobody did. I started handing out infractions and bans and deleting posts and hey-presto, by the end of the week everyone was doing what they were supposed to be.
    Even if you address all of the issues above in meticulously written stickies, you can't count on people reading them and taking them to heart. In the end its something that people have to want to do themselves and if they don't you have to ask - why are you here if not to learn? All you can do is makethe information available and accessible and then the rest is up to the individual. Thats just the way it is I guess.
    That's the problem... for all the good posters, some just do not want to follow the rules or play nice. Why should the rest of us suffer?
    I've participated in debate forums that are much more harshly moderated than this one and they aren't any better or worse in case you were wondering. Positive reinforcement usually works better than punishment for changing behavioral norms (see reinforcement theory). Trolling is a separate issue but I don't see much of that here.
    There is a lot of trolling here, luckily most of it gets removed.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Hayte wrote: »
    Positive reinforcement usually works better than punishment for changing behavioral norms (see reinforcement theory).

    It does but it takes far, far more time to do and it isn't feasible for a forum of this size for the mods to do that. Now if the community wants to start doing it I'd be all for it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 485 ✭✭Hayte


    If they don't then the first question is "why don't people talk about political issues discursively?" and "do they know how to do it?"

    I'm not saying "don't ban anyone, ever" because there are situations where it is warranted to salvage whatever is left of a debate. Its just that so often there isn't much of a debate anyway, which is why people so often derail the thread topic into areas they do know and can talk about. Sometimes people are so ill prepared that the only thing they can talk about is from indirect experience and anecdotes that are impossible to confirm/deny. All of the Israel/Palestinian territories threads going back to "Ship Bound for Gaza" are working histories of these problems.

    In all of these threads there is not even a consensus over the recent history of the conflict, which makes talking about current affairs impossible.

    Now you can ban people like Anymore and I have found nearly everything the man has said in I/P to be incredibly disingenuous, but that in itself does not fix the problem. I don't believe there is a single person participating in any of those threads that knows how to debate current affairs. There is no intervention to compel evidence or sources for claims, to disregard an argument put forth (because it is fallacious). There is no attempt to reach consensus on anything and you can't build a debate when nobody agrees on anything.

    General pointers are in the forum charter and the stickies but other than specifics on immigration, it is mostly abstract and it doesn't solve the really big problem - how can you talk about something you know nothing about and have no direct experience of? It is inevitable that people become mouthpieces for whatever news channel they watch or what their friend told them. This will always be easier to understand than statistics and demographies where you need training to interprete without inferring the wrong things.

    It is broadly left to the users to prepare themselves for debate and yet it is clear that many either do not know how. I completely understand this and I do not blame any individuals, even Anymore. This is a forum with half a million registered users and no qualification required to post in politics. I like it that way but with that volume of users, I understand that not everyone can prepare themselves to the standard required for proper debate. I like the informality but informal debate requires good faith. All of the I/P threads in recent memory are structured around hostile questioning and you can't do that informally.

    I don't blame any moderators either. This forum has at least two of the best moderators I've seen on any forum period (Scofflaw and OscarBravo). But when it comes down to it, you have the power to determine who gets a say. Before you start taking that right away from people, it would help if you publically set out the grounds for harsher sanctions before you propose harsher sanctions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Silas Salmon Buckle


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Well if you want a ban...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Silas Salmon Buckle


    at last, a good excuse!! :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 485 ✭✭Hayte


    Alls I can say is damn. You must have really annoyed OscarBravo for him to take a month off you. :P He doesn't give those out like candy.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    I was an angry young man.





    And permabear was a persistent muppet.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I don't think it's all that long since I lasted handed out a long or permaban for persistent muppetry. But the standards of persistent muppetry are much higher than they used to be...no offence intended.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,073 ✭✭✭Xenophile


    What might appear to a moderator to be a "Random thought one liner" in fact, may very well be a deeply held conviction by the poster formulated over time and expressed succinctly and concisely at an opportune time in order to stimulate discussion to get feedback.

    In my opinion threads of this nature should not be closed prematurely.

    The Forum on Spirituality has been closed for years. Please bring it back, there are lots of Spiritual people in Ireland and elsewhere.



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