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Cost of setting up a website.

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    #62
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    Very amusing argument. I do think that Ireland (and some other countries) are over priced when it comes to web design work. Not everyone, but there are a few companys who offer design services at steep prices but I feel all there work is the same (apart from slight changes of course), or the quality just isnt that good (design and development wise).

    Some companies are brilliant and charge a fortune. There are companys who are excellent that can offer it cheaper. Its a mixed game but not everyone should be tarnished with the same brush.

    heggie (and others) have made a good point. Designers and developers can spend an awful lot of time working with clients personally to ensure they get exactly what they want. They spend a lot of time doing the design / development to make sure that its professionaly done, of excellent quality and matches all standards web wide. The cost of living in Ireland compared to India isnt the same and it would not be worth our time to offer design services at 20euro a piece or even 500 a piece. Imagine spending hours on a project and only getting a few quid for it?

    You can buy cheap labour for your car, for building your house, or for just about anything. Your not always guarnteed great service for a chaper price.


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    #63
    Adam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,866 ✭✭✭Adam


    Sully wrote: »
    Very amusing argument. I do think that Ireland (and some other countries) are over priced when it comes to web design work. Not everyone, but there are a few companys who offer design services at steep prices but I feel all there work is the same (apart from slight changes of course), or the quality just isnt that good (design and development wise).

    Some companies are brilliant and charge a fortune. There are companys who are excellent that can offer it cheaper. Its a mixed game but not everyone should be tarnished with the same brush.

    heggie (and others) have made a good point. Designers and developers can spend an awful lot of time working with clients personally to ensure they get exactly what they want. They spend a lot of time doing the design / development to make sure that its professionaly done, of excellent quality and matches all standards web wide. The cost of living in Ireland compared to India isnt the same and it would not be worth our time to offer design services at 20euro a piece or even 500 a piece. Imagine spending hours on a project and only getting a few quid for it?

    You can buy cheap labour for your car, for building your house, or for just about anything. Your not always guarnteed great service for a chaper price.
    You've said nothing that heggie hasn't already said, and haven't substantiated it. The point of the "amusing argument" was that heggie was wrong in saying the OP could not get a quality site for €500. This is not true.

    And if you want to make a point about cheap labour, build a brochure website for me. Spend 20 hours on it, and I'll pay you ten euro an hour. That's €200. You wouldn't though. Not even close. However, I would. Because I do it part time, it's cash on the side for me. So for people like me, who do it as an extra source of income, it's going to be cheaper. If you live off it, you are forced to charge more. But just because you live off it doesn't justify charging five times as much as I would.


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    #64
    heggie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,879 ✭✭✭heggie


    ugh, so Mirror, do you honestly think you can provide the same service as a full time freelancer or web agency?


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    #65
    niceirishfella
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,538 ✭✭✭niceirishfella


    Heggie............Can we please all see examples of your work.........enough is enough!
    Put your money where your mouse is.


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    #66
    Adam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,866 ✭✭✭Adam


    heggie wrote: »
    ugh, so Mirror, do you honestly think you can provide the same service as a full time freelancer or web agency?
    Well excuse you but I can provide a better service than some around here that I know of to be perfectly honest. But that's not the argument, so now who's nitpicking? It's getting rather desperate.


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    #67
    heggie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,879 ✭✭✭heggie


    don't doubt that Mirror, still didn't answer the question though which IS the very argument


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    #68
    Adam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,866 ✭✭✭Adam


    heggie wrote: »
    don't doubt that Mirror, still didn't answer the question though which IS the very argument
    There is no answer. Or there are two answers. Yes, and no. Yes, I can do better than some, and no, I can't do better than others. Can you do better than part time freelancers?


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    #69
    CuLT
    Subscribers Posts: 9,716 ✭✭✭CuLT


    You can get an expensive suit tailored specifically for you if you've got the cash to burn; you can be sure it's unique and special for you. You'll probably look pretty suave, and other expensive suit wearers will be able to recognize you in the street.

    You can get a very nice off-the-shelf suit where most people wouln't notice the difference between it and the tailored one (because not everybody memorizes the look of every suit every person wears), at a fraction the cost of the tailored one.

    Or you can try and make a suit yourself if you really want to, for nothing; but god knows how it's going to end up. If you're only doing it for the laugh it doesn't matter, but if you're going for an interview you might want to reconsider.

    I think this reasonbly succinctly describes the web design business.


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    #70
    Adam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,866 ✭✭✭Adam


    CuLT wrote: »
    You can get an expensive suit tailored specifically for you if you've got the cash to burn; you can be sure it's unique and special for you. You'll probably look pretty suave, and other expensive suit wearers will be able to recognize you in the street.

    You can get a very nice off-the-shelf suit where most people wouln't notice the difference between it and the tailored one (because not everybody memorizes the look of every suit every person wears), at a fraction the cost of the tailored one.

    Or you can try and make a suit yourself if you really want to, for nothing; but god knows how it's going to end up. If you're only doing it for the laugh it doesn't matter, but if you're going for an interview you might want to reconsider.

    I think this reasonbly succinctly describes the web design business.
    Very well said.


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    #71
    Trojan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,402 ✭✭✭✭Trojan


    shawnee wrote: »
    I am setting up an alternative health business and I want to set up a website . The site will be probably about three to five pages and will be an information only site, which will show my telephone number. As I am costing this venture at present, any ideas where I can get a quality site set up without spending over 500 euro. I want it to be easily found on Google and yahoo. Would appreciate any ideas or help.

    Hi Shawnee,

    It is possible to get a website online for €500. Like most things in business, there are various trade-offs to be made.

    The main consideration for you is that you may have to spend significant amounts of time on research, learning, and later on project management of the site. The other caveat I'd put on this is that the term "quality" is extremely subjective and what some people consider quality is average at best to others. This particularly applies to design.

    Regarding being easily found on Google & Yahoo: if your business niche is not very competitive then you should be found fairly easily in the search engines, assuming that you hire a web developer with a knowledge of the basic principles. However, if your business niche is competitive then it is less likely that you will be easily found in the search engines for your target keywords. In that case, you will need to either learn a lot about, or invest in SEO for your site.

    Finally, it may be possible to get a grant from your local county enterprise board for your website. For example, here is the relevant information for DCEB:
    http://www.dceb.ie/financial-assistance/types-of-grants/commercial-website-development-grant

    I hope this helps.

    Regards,
    Alastair.

    🎙️ The Recognized Authority Podcast



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    #72
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    Mirror wrote: »
    You've said nothing that heggie hasn't already said, and haven't substantiated it. The point of the "amusing argument" was that heggie was wrong in saying the OP could not get a quality site for €500. This is not true.

    I'm not saying that heggie is completely right but he has made good points. I'm sure you can get a website for €500 that would be pretty decent. Well, a brochure site anyway. Iv always disagreed with people charging in the area 2k for a basic site and iv said it on Boards also. I don't charge anywhere near that, and I don't plan on doing so.

    Iv heard of Croatian designers charging €200 for a brochure website (didn't see the company's work, but a friend mentioned it to me) but the cost of living there is lower then Ireland.
    And if you want to make a point about cheap labour, build a brochure website for me. Spend 20 hours on it, and I'll pay you ten euro an hour. That's €200.

    That's just above min wage. Not many people with a good skill would go at that rate! A lot of freelancers charge about €20-25 an hour to do web work. Plus, not everyone can design and develop - so extra charges for either.
    You wouldn't though. Not even close. However, I would. Because I do it part time, it's cash on the side for me. So for people like me, who do it as an extra source of income, it's going to be cheaper. If you live off it, you are forced to charge more. But just because you live off it doesn't justify charging five times as much as I would.

    If your trying to make a living, it wouldn't be feasible to charge €25 for a site or €500. Saying that, I agree with your point on it being unacceptable to charge 5x over.


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    #73
    shawnee
    Registered Users Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭shawnee


    Having read the posts , I am inclined to agee with TrickY Ds view. I am good at a number of things and great at a few. Website design I may do but it would take me a long time and I would prefer to find someone good, who understands my language and culture. Are u into doing sites yourself tricky D ? Would you consider setting up a site for me ? If you are interested I will make contact.;)


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    #74
    The Mighty Ken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 586 ✭✭✭The Mighty Ken


    Sully wrote: »
    Iv always disagreed with people charging in the area 2k for a basic site

    Amazing really. I've never paid less than 2k for a bespoke design. And that's before mark-up and development. You know why the designer I work with charges €2,500-€4,500 for bespoke site designs? Because he's a professional. He's extremely talented, works extremely hard, spends inordinate amounts of time and late nights honing and practicing his profession. His life revolves around design. He produces better design (IMO) than anyone else in the country and he is paid accordingly. Similarly, I charge a certain amount for development. Mainly because, like the designer I work with, I spend a lot of time making sure I can do the job right. I spend a lot of my out-of-work hours mastering technologies such as actionscript, PHP, CSS, UJS and absorbing as much information as a I can about IA, usability, etc.

    This is what clients expect, or at least should expect, when they hire a team to work on their Web project. Talent, skill, knowledge and ability. Something that seems to be massively lacking by certain people on this thread.


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    #75
    yeraulone
    Registered Users Posts: 597 ✭✭✭yeraulone


    So anyone who builds a website for €500 is unprofessional?

    OP, you should be able to get a decent site with the budget you specified, especially as the site will be quite small. You will probably have to look harder, but there are plenty of Irish designers who take a lot of pride in their work, and treat every design and build the same.

    Read up on SEO so you have an understanding of how to get results in search engines, and how the designer can help you achieve this. Review portfolios of anyone you are thinking about hiring, to make sure they can do the job. You could also consider learning how to update the content on your website yourself as it incredibly easy to do. Google loves fresh/new content, and that can help you achieve higher rankings.


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    #76
    The Mighty Ken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 586 ✭✭✭The Mighty Ken


    yeraulone wrote: »
    So anyone who builds a website for €500 is unprofessional?

    I would certainly question their ability to do a job of professional standard, yes. Mind you, as someone who's been doing this for over 10 years, my definition of a professional job varies wildly from a lot of self-professed 'Web designers' definition.
    yeraulone wrote: »
    OP, you should be able to get a decent site with the budget you specified

    No, you won't. Not a bespoke solution anyway. Your best bet is to have a look at Template Monster. You can get very competitively priced hosting and domains from Blacknight. You'll be well under budget with this and you can probably get someone reasonably Web-savvy to help you customise and deploy your site.

    OP, please don't listen to the self-proclaimed 'professionals' on this thread. By all means get your site done on the cheap but do it the tried and trusted way. A Template Monster site is infinitely better than handing over €500 to an incompetent cowboy or trusting someone in Asia to do the job properly.


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    #77
    yeraulone
    Registered Users Posts: 597 ✭✭✭yeraulone


    That’s fair enough Ken. Personally, I'd examine a designer’s portfolio and past work experiences, review their references, get to know them and see how they respond to my questions and comments. That’s how I'd judge if they were professional or not.


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    #78
    The Mighty Ken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 586 ✭✭✭The Mighty Ken


    yeraulone wrote: »
    That’s fair enough Ken. Personally, I'd examine a designer’s portfolio and past work experiences, review their references, get to know them and see how they respond to my questions and comments. That’s how I'd judge if the where professional or not.

    A designer's suitability to do the job isn't in the eye of the uninitiated client. You will largely be judged by your peers as well. If I tell a client I am a master chef and they don't know the difference between rump steak and fillet mignon then that doesn't necessarily make me a master chef.

    I appreciate that there's no regulation in this industry - it's a free market and that's fine. What does annoy me though are those that are devaluing the industry by producing crap and charging pittance. If you want to compete, you shouldn't just be competing on price.


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    #79
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    The Mighty Ken wrote: »
    Amazing really. I've never paid less than 2k for a bespoke design. And that's before mark-up and development. You know why the designer I work with charges €2,500-€4,500 for bespoke site designs? Because he's a professional. He's extremely talented, works extremely hard, spends inordinate amounts of time and late nights honing and practicing his profession. His life revolves around design. He produces better design (IMO) than anyone else in the country and he is paid accordingly.

    Its unfair to say that every Irish designer but yours is not as talented. There are some very talented designers in Ireland, who spend a lot of time working on projects (day and night), meeting with clients, learning to adapt to new things and studying new languages and the best way to use them.
    This is what clients expect, or at least should expect, when they hire a team to work on their Web project. Talent, skill, knowledge and ability. Something that seems to be massively lacking by certain people on this thread.

    I agree, but I dont think you should be charging an arm and a leg for the work. For such a basic site, some of the asking prices in Ireland is unbelivable!
    yeraulone wrote: »
    That’s fair enough Ken. Personally, I'd examine a designer’s portfolio and past work experiences, review their references, get to know them and see how they respond to my questions and comments. That’s how I'd judge if they were professional or not.

    Agreed.


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    #80
    The Mighty Ken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 586 ✭✭✭The Mighty Ken


    Sully wrote: »
    Its unfair to say that every Irish designer but yours is not as talented. There are some very talented designers in Ireland

    I'm not saying that there aren't other talented designers out there, of course there are. In my opinion, the designer that I work with is the best in the country but that's just my opinion and that's why I choose to work with him! I've worked with a good few really good designers in Ireland over the years though. Having said this, the only ones that I know that I would consider to be of a professional standard wouldn't even entertain the notion of a bespoke design for €500.
    Sully wrote: »
    I agree, but I dont think you should be charging an arm and a leg for the work. For such a basic site, some of the asking prices in Ireland is unbelivable!

    I don't charge an arm and a leg. I charge what I consider to be a reasonable price and certainly less than most larger agencies. If you knock out a bespoke design with markup and site build inside 2 days for €500 then you're not doing it right... or you're one of the most talented people on earth. This is a fact.


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    #81
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    The Mighty Ken wrote: »
    I'm not saying that there aren't other talented designers out there, of course there are. In my opinion, the designer that I work with is the best in the country but that's just my opinion and that's why I choose to work with him! I've worked with a good few really good designers in Ireland over the years though. Having said this, the only ones that I know that I would consider to be of a professional standard wouldn't even entertain the notion of a bespoke design for €500.



    I don't charge an arm and a leg. I charge what I consider to be a reasonable price and certainly less than most larger agencies. If you knock out a bespoke design with markup and site build inside 2 days for €500 then you're not doing it right... or you're one of the most talented people on earth. This is a fact.

    I don't charge €500, but I don't think asking for over 2k for a basic site is acceptable. Thats just my opinion, and I think the designer that works for me is very skilled and talented.


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    #82
    The Mighty Ken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 586 ✭✭✭The Mighty Ken


    Sully wrote: »
    I don't think asking for over 2k for a basic site is acceptable. Thats just my opinion, and I think the designer that works for me is very skilled and talented.

    How long does it take your designer to create a bespoke design for a site? Let's say, hypothetically, 3 templates and then mark-up and build the site?


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    #83
    tricky D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    The Mighty Ken wrote: »
    Because he's a professional.

    Yup. Understands business. Some people just don't understand costs, quality and value for money.

    @ Shawnee PM sent


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    #84
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    The Mighty Ken wrote: »
    How long does it take your designer to create a bespoke design for a site? Let's say, hypothetically, 3 templates and then mark-up and build the site?

    Takes about a weeksh maybe to get a design together, then another while tweaking it if the client requires changes, and then its passed onto the developer who usually puts it together in about the same amount of time.

    Thats for a basic site with only a few pages.


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    #85
    The Mighty Ken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 586 ✭✭✭The Mighty Ken


    Sully wrote: »
    Takes about a weeksh maybe to get a design together, then another while tweaking it if the client requires changes, and then its passed onto the developer who usually puts it together in about the same amount of time.

    Thats for a basic site with only a few pages.

    That's a bit longer than I had in mind. So effectively you're saying that it's unacceptable to charge €2,000 for 2 weeks work? I don't think you're living in the real world TBH.


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    #86
    aidan_walsh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,208 ✭✭✭✭aidan_walsh


    shawnee wrote:
    Would you consider setting up a site for me ? If you are interested I will make contact.
    shawnee, please read the charter. If you want someone to create your website, please go to adverts.ie.
    tricky D wrote:
    @ Shawnee PM sent
    tricky D, please do not try to solicit work on this board.


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    #87
    chat2joe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 238 ✭✭chat2joe


    There are relatively few costs involved in designing a website other than paying for the time of the designer. It's up to that web designer to put the price on this. It's very true that there are some excellent designers who are doing great work and charging a lot for this. As established designers they should and it's great that the market is there for it. But if someone is offering to do the job for less, you can't automatically assume that the end result will be any less.

    You shouldn't have to pay extra to satisfy some web designers inflated ego.

    There are a lot of up and coming designers that may want to develop a good portfolio and their main aim at this point is to expand that portfolio with a wide range of projects rather than extract the maximum possible from the clients wallet.


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    #88
    The Mighty Ken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 586 ✭✭✭The Mighty Ken


    chat2joe wrote: »
    But if someone is offering to do the job for less, you can't automatically assume that the end result will be any less.

    You shouldn't have to pay extra to satisfy some web designers inflated ego.

    There are a lot of up and coming designers that may want to develop a good portfolio and their main aim at this point is to expand that portfolio with a wide range of projects rather than extract the maximum possible from the clients wallet.

    To summarise what you just said - you get what you pay for! Saying that talented, experienced designers charge a lot because they have inflated egos is stupid. It's because they produce better work.


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    #89
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    The Mighty Ken wrote: »
    That's a bit longer than I had in mind. So effectively you're saying that it's unacceptable to charge €2,000 for 2 weeks work? I don't think you're living in the real world TBH.

    Well maybe not 2k, it really depends on a lot of factors - quality, portfolio, customer service and so on. There are a heck of a lot of companies, and a Waterford one (which won awards for **** sake!) in particular that sticks in my mind that charges to much for work that doesnt vary per client. I hate being able to go around and spot a companys work before checking the footer. Its a bad sign if all there work is similar IMO. There are to many companies charging a fortune for quality work that isnt great.

    Can I see your designers past work? Id love to see (not being sarcastic) some of the past work, you have me entriqued!


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    #90
    The Mighty Ken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 586 ✭✭✭The Mighty Ken


    Sully wrote: »
    Well maybe not 2k, it really depends on a lot of
    factors - quality, portfolio, customer service and so on.

    Absolutely. The experience and ability of the people working on the site will largely determine the cost. I just think that it's unfair for anyone to tell anyone else that they're charging too much for anything without a huge amount of industry and business experience.
    Sully wrote: »
    There are a heck of a lot of companies, and a Waterford one (which won awards for **** sake!) in particular that sticks in my mind that charges to much for work that doesnt vary per client. I hate being able to go around and spot a companys work before checking the footer. Its a bad sign if all there work is similar IMO. There are to many companies charging a fortune for quality work that isnt great.

    The majority of Irish Web shops produce poor work unfortunately. There are a handful of decent agencies but they're few and far between and yes, a lot of the poorer companies charge a fortune for what they're actually offering. The big problem is that many clients don't really know what to expect from a creative or technical point of view and end up getting ripped-off.
    Sully wrote: »
    Can I see your designers past work? Id love to see (not being sarcastic) some of the past work, you have me entriqued!

    PM sent!


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    #91
    AARRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    heggie wrote: »
    An example of a sub 500 euro website. either one of your own, or outsourced, or whatever

    http://www.staff.ie
    http://www.dole.ie

    There's two. I own them.

    These topics always depress me. Outsourcing is really cheap. Just because wages in Albania are low does not mean everyone there has terrible coding or design skills. It just means wages are low.

    Low wages does not equal lesser skills. If this were the case, Irish people would be less skilled than the Swiss, the Yanks, etc. As we all know, that's not the case.

    If you are on a low budget, go to the likes of scriptlance.com and post a detailed description of what you need. You'll get it all done for under $200.

    US hosts are dirt cheap. Forgetting about the cheap dollar, you get about twice as much for your money with a US host. If you don't believe me check out theplanet.com. I use them. They are excellent and offer (IMO) unrivalled customer service.

    If you want to hire an expensive Irish developer, by all means go for it, but you will not be getting value for money.

    Please don't attack me for this post. I am sorry if you are an Irish designer and you feel threatened by outsourcing, but outsourcing is a fact of life now and you're going to have to face it at some stage.


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