Did You ever vote Fianna Fail?

lividduck · 26-03-2012 8:15am

marienbad wrote: »

Never voted for them and I never will, and as for the notion that we all went along with it in the good times- this is just not true. A large minority were sick to the core with the goings on in this country but other than campaigning and voting responsibly there is'nt much one can do- that is the nature of democracy.

As for the oft-stated idea that the other crowd would have behaved no differently, there is no evidence for this .As a matter of fact there is some indicators to the contrary - the Fitzgerald and Bruton governments did'nt follow the CJH model so why would later versions follow the Bertie model ?

To say that the endemic corruption did'nt contribute to the boom and bust of our economy is just unbelievable- of course it did. More people need to read that report .

I would suggest that you read the FG and labour manifestos for the elections in both 2002 and 2007. In 2007 FG and Lab were actually promising to outspend FF! Over the years both FG and Lab urged greater and greater levels of spending.
As for corruption well FF led the way, hands down, but lets not forget Lowrey and the Mobile licience and his Ben Dunne connection, or Cosgrave , there was corruption in all the major parties to some degree.
It is not as simple as FF voters evil , everyone else saints!

yosser hughes · 26-03-2012 12:35pm

lividduck wrote: »

I would suggest that you read the FG and labour manifestos for the elections in both 2002 and 2007. In 2007 FG and Lab were actually promising to outspend FF! Over the years both FG and Lab urged greater and greater levels of spending.
As for corruption well FF led the way, hands down, but lets not forget Lowrey and the Mobile licience and his Ben Dunne connection, or Cosgrave , there was corruption in all the major parties to some degree.
It is not as simple as FF voters evil , everyone else saints!

How did Fine Gel deal with Lowry again? How did Fianna Faíl deal with Burke, Flynn, Lawlor, Haughey.............................
Give me a break with "they're all the same" nonsense.
Corruption in Fianna Faíl was admired by voter and party colleague alike.

yosser hughes · 26-03-2012 12:37pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Doesn't really compute as only about 15% of our TDs are elected on the first count.
So someone who gave FF say a Number 2 or a Number 10 may well have led to that TD being elected. For example I know people who hated FF but hated Sinn Fein more, and if seat 5 in a constituency was going to come down to a fight between the SFer and the FFer would happily give the FF candidate a low preference and the SFer none.

FF understood the PRSTV system and fought tooth and nail for lower preferences. I'd say the percentage of voters who truly 'never voted FF' is closer to 30% than the 60% being quoted in the thread.

Fair points made there.

marienbad · 26-03-2012 1:22pm

lividduck wrote: »

I would suggest that you read the FG and labour manifestos for the elections in both 2002 and 2007. In 2007 FG and Lab were actually promising to outspend FF! Over the years both FG and Lab urged greater and greater levels of spending.
As for corruption well FF led the way, hands down, but lets not forget Lowrey and the Mobile licience and his Ben Dunne connection, or Cosgrave , there was corruption in all the major parties to some degree.
It is not as simple as FF voters evil , everyone else saints!

I never said it was that simple and of course there is curruption in all parties but FF turned it into a business and virtually legitimised it , though that sound contradictory. And even now Bertie and Flynn instead of at least shutting the fcuk up still protest their innocence .

You can mention on one hand the currupt politicians in other parties, the list seems endless when it come to FF- it is endemic as that report said.

By the way I have read those manifestos and if you believe that then you are just naive. FG and Labour always have a get out of jail card in that the manifestos apply to single party government but it is always a coalition elected , so back to the drawing board. But anyway every manifesto is contingent on the state finances after a party takes office.
This is not some 'Minority Report'' scenario , so lets judge on the actions taken and not on those that might have could have should have by an opposition that has essentially no power.l

As your seriously contending that Alan Dukes Michael Noonan Pat Rabbitte Ruari Quinn would have allowed go in their parties or in government the behaviour that CJH Reynolds and Bertie not alone tolerated but themselves were involved in ?

I never said the Fianna Fail voters were evil - less of the hyperbole please, but they should ask themselves why they did so . if only for practical reasons and if they wish to avoid being seduced again

margio · 26-03-2012 1:51pm

I voted Fianna Fail all my life as my family have done for generations. Yes my faith in the party has been damaged, but I would consider voting for them again, depending on the candidate etc.At the moment I would still be in the Republican spctrum, ie Fianna Fail/Sinn Fein. Although I think Fianna Fail has forgotten it's republican roots, and that's where the party went wrong.

ednwireland · 26-03-2012 1:54pm

nope never , not even a preference, but then i'm a blow-in

MajorMax · 26-03-2012 2:02pm

In 1945 it was almost impossible to find anyone who would admit to voting for the Nazi party in 1933.
Now I'm not comparing Fianna Fail to the Nazi party.
One was a bunch of mindless thugs who ruthlessly oppressed their own people, were determined to hold onto power at any price in an Europe bound and enslaved under a fascist and despotic leader...................and the other was a German political party

raymon · 26-03-2012 2:22pm

MajorMax wrote: »

In 1945 it was almost impossible to find anyone who would admit to voting for the Nazi party in 1933.
Now I'm not comparing Fianna Fail to the Nazi party.
One was a bunch of mindless thugs who ruthlessly oppressed their own people, were determined to hold onto power at any price in an Europe bound and enslaved under a fascist and despotic leader...................and the other was a German political party

Ahhh yes , it was only a matter of time before Godwin's law was invoked.

later12 · 26-03-2012 2:24pm

johngalway wrote: »

Same question.

Tom Hand, John Cosgrave will be named when his criminal case is completed, you might want to look at Ann Devitt as well who the tribunal criticised for having behaved "entirely inappropriately". It's not clear whether more of the un-named councillors (un-named because of ongoing court cases) are in Fine Gael.

Is Anne Devitt still involved in a business relationship with James O'Reilly I wonder?

MajorMax · 26-03-2012 2:37pm

raymon wrote: »

Ahhh yes , it was only a matter of time before Godwin's law was invoked.

You Sir, are worse than Hitler;)

johngalway · 26-03-2012 2:44pm

later12 wrote: »

Tom Hand, John Cosgrave will be named when his criminal case is completed, you might want to look at Ann Devitt as well who the tribunal criticised for having behaved "entirely inappropriately". It's not clear whether more of the un-named councillors (un-named because of ongoing court cases) are in Fine Gael.

Is Anne Devitt still involved in a business relationship with James O'Reilly I wonder?

No idea.

As a FG voter (non member) I say don't let the door hit them in the arse on the way out. I don't care which party anyone is belonging to, if they're doing wrong get rid, simple as that.

There was an ex FF TD on Newstalk, Jim Glennon, and he was asked if FF was synonymous with corruption. He said it was, and not only was FF toxic but that it was also tainted. (From memory it would have been some stage Friday morning on that prog with Ivan Yates).

The reason people see it as such is the scale of the problem within FF. FG has/had whomever, but FF has had people right from the highest office in Govt down to the ground, and in Europe, who either have extremely serious smells coming from them or have actually been declared corrupt as in the case of P. Flynn.

I'm not defending FG. I'm saying the scale of the problem is hugely skewed towards FF. On that basis I do have to object when corruption comes up and people say "They're all the same", no, they're not, some are a lot worse. That's not praise for FG at all, if there's a problem, then root it out and be quick about it.

(By the by, at the outset I was asking the question simply out of curiosity).

K-9 · 26-03-2012 2:52pm

MajorMax wrote: »

In 1945 it was almost impossible to find anyone who would admit to voting for the Nazi party in 1933.
Now I'm not comparing Fianna Fail to the Nazi party.
One was a bunch of mindless thugs who ruthlessly oppressed their own people, were determined to hold onto power at any price in an Europe bound and enslaved under a fascist and despotic leader...................and the other was a German political party

I thought something like that when I saw the thread, was thinking more Thatcher though!

later12 · 26-03-2012 2:59pm

johngalway wrote: »

The reason people see it as such is the scale of the problem within FF. FG has/had whomever, but FF has had people right from the highest office in Govt down to the ground, and in Europe, who either have extremely serious smells coming from them or have actually been declared corrupt as in the case of P. Flynn.

We are one year on from the Moriarty report which found against a former Fine Gael Minister, and then we have details emerging from the Mahon tribunal whereby former Taoiseach and Fine Gael leader John Bruton was told about one of his councillors demanding a IR£200,000 corrupt payment from Frank Dunlop, and Bruton was told this by Frank Dunlop himself and dismissed it. Frank Dunlop told the Tribunal that Bruton said that Fine Gael was "not populated by angels".

The fact is that in the early 1990s when much of this was happening, Fine gael only had 6 councillors on the council whereas Fianna Fail had twenty. However, from what I can see , Fine Gael is rather proportionately represented in Mahon - moreso than its other more popular rival, the Labour party, in fact,which is under-represented relative to its size.

The Corinthian · 26-03-2012 2:59pm

I can't remember the last time I bothered to vote.

I have in the past given other forms of 'support' to Fianna Fail and a number of the other parties however. Fianna Fail gave poorer returns on such 'support' than most of the others, I found.

antoobrien · 26-03-2012 4:58pm

As one local elections candidate told me about 10 years ago: we all lie, it's just a question of whose lies you choose to believe.

Boulevardier · 26-03-2012 5:05pm

Once. Childers for president 1973. My first ever vote. That's it.

lyndonjones · 26-03-2012 6:08pm

How can you vote for a party that is steep in scandal and have total disregard for the working man??

26-03-2012 7:04pm

margio wrote: »

I voted Fianna Fail all my life as my family have done for generations. Yes my faith in the party has been damaged, but I would consider voting for them again, depending on the candidate etc.At the moment I would still be in the Republican spctrum, ie Fianna Fail/Sinn Fein. Although I think Fianna Fail has forgotten it's republican roots, and that's where the party went wrong.

The only roots Fianna fail have is how to line their own pockets while bankrupting the country again and again. If you had any consideration for the generations after you you would ensure that that corruption on the state is removed for good.

What exactly would it take for you to not vote for them ? Would it have to be mass genocide or something:mad::mad::mad:maybe if you or your children had to emigrate you may not "consider voting for them again":eek:

Remember the last 3 previous Fianna Fail leaders have been found to be corrupt, and yet you'd consider voting for them again ???

johngalway · 26-03-2012 7:39pm

later12 wrote: »

We are one year on from the Moriarty report which found against a former Fine Gael Minister, and then we have details emerging from the Mahon tribunal whereby former Taoiseach and Fine Gael leader John Bruton was told about one of his councillors demanding a IR£200,000 corrupt payment from Frank Dunlop, and Bruton was told this by Frank Dunlop himself and dismissed it. Frank Dunlop told the Tribunal that Bruton said that Fine Gael was "not populated by angels".

The fact is that in the early 1990s when much of this was happening, Fine gael only had 6 councillors on the council whereas Fianna Fail had twenty. However, from what I can see , Fine Gael is rather proportionately represented in Mahon - moreso than its other more popular rival, the Labour party, in fact,which is under-represented relative to its size.

Regarding John Bruton, did his version of events agree with Dunlops? If not, then forgive me but I'd have to cast a jaundiced eye over Frank "Bagman" Dunlop. I don't know anything about those events other than what you've posted.

Michael Lowry was kicked out of FG, and I don't think there's much love lost there. Not sure why people in Tipp still vote for him, I wouldn't.

I think a comparison would still have FF well ahead, it isn't just the numbers of corrupt people that is important, there is the level of Government they reached also.

later12 · 26-03-2012 8:58pm

johngalway wrote: »

Regarding John Bruton, did his version of events agree with Dunlops?

Initially, no. At first John Bruton denied having been informed of the request by Frank Dunlop. "On mature recollection" (four years after his vehement denials) John Bruton subsequently admitted that he had been told about this level of corruption. He doesn't deny it.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/brutons-evidence-came-too-late-1200448.html

johngalway · 26-03-2012 9:04pm

That's just depressing, I had rather liked John Bruton. I wonder why he never took any action?

john reilly · 26-03-2012 9:27pm

lyndonjones wrote: »

How can you vote for a party that is steep in scandal and have total disregard for the working man??

if you are speaking of labour. they have never supported the working man.

margio · 26-03-2012 11:37pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The only roots Fianna fail have is how to line their own pockets while bankrupting the country again and again. If you had any consideration for the generations after you you would ensure that that corruption on the state is removed for good.

What exactly would it take for you to not vote for them ? Would it have to be mass genocide or something:mad::mad::mad:maybe if you or your children had to emigrate you may not "consider voting for them again":eek:

Remember the last 3 previous Fianna Fail leaders have been found to be corrupt, and yet you'd consider voting for them again ???

Who I vote for, and why I vote for them is my own business. If I like the candidate, and he has a great work rate when it comes to MY constituenncy, then I will not punish them for being Fianna Fail. There is still pleanty of good people in the party and in the Dail. Now as to what has come out in the papers tv etc, you don't seriously think that Fianna Fail are the only party involved, hello Lowry, Cosgrave????. Coming back to mass genocide it was the free state pricks,which Fine Gael has it's roots, that dragged my great grandfather and two of his brothers along the road before beating them sensless and eventually shooting them dead, leaving three widows behind and 9 kids without a Father. Fianna Fail has had great leaders. lynch, lemass Dev etc were fine statesmen. Not defending the undesirable actions of those three leaders, they still did great work. Bertie and Alberts work on the peace process can not be forgotten, Fine gael when in power were holding 'so called peace talks' with John Major with Sinn Fein outside the gate, like hello, where did they think they were going?. As for Charlie I would love to resurect him as Taoisech from the dead and send him over to deal with Merkel and Zarkozy, because he wouldn't take any ****, not like that lapdog Enda Kenny. I know people will be up in arms over that comment, but Haughey had balls of steel, and that what this country needs. Same goes for Dev/

raymon · 26-03-2012 11:44pm

margio wrote: »

Who I vote for, and why I vote for them is my own business. If I like the candidate, and he has a great work rate when it comes to MY constituenncy, then I will not punish them for being Fianna Fail. There is still pleanty of good people in the party and in the Dail. Now as to what has come out in the papers tv etc, you don't seriously think that Fianna Fail are the only party involved, hello Lowry, Cosgrave????. Coming back to mass genocide it was the free state pricks,which Fine Gael has it's roots, that dragged my great grandfather and two of his brothers along the road before beating them sensless and eventually shooting them dead, leaving three widows behind and 9 kids without a Father. Fianna Fail has had great leaders. lynch, lemass Dev etc were fine statesmen. Not defending the undesirable actions of those three leaders, they still did great work. Bertie and Alberts work on the peace process can not be forgotten, Fine gael when in power were holding 'so called peace talks' with John Major with Sinn Fein outside the gate, like hello, where did they think they were going?. As for Charlie I would love to resurect him as Taoisech from the dead and send him over to deal with Merkel and Zarkozy, because he wouldn't take any ****, not like that lapdog Enda Kenny. I know people will be up in arms over that comment, but Haughey had balls of steel, and that what this country needs. Same goes for Dev/

You sound like a true FF supporter.

Do you realise that you are the reason I never ,never , never , ever , ever will vote for you , someone like you or someone you vote for .

margio · 26-03-2012 11:48pm

raymon wrote: »

You sound like a true FF supporter.

Do you realise that you are the reason I never ,never , never , ever , ever will vote for you , someone like you or someone you vote for .

And I couldn't give a flying **** what you think, I'm not a true FF supporter,. I'm prob veering towards SF at the moment, but if a candidate that I like is running, i will vote for him, even if he is FF.

southsiderosie · 27-03-2012 12:36am

MOD NOTE:

Let's take a deep breath and bring the temperature down a notch, please.

Foghladh · 27-03-2012 12:59am

raymon wrote: »

You sound like a true FF supporter.

Do you realise that you are the reason I never ,never , never , ever , ever will vote for you , someone like you or someone you vote for .

Ah! The steadfast refusal to consider voting for a party regardless of policy or circumstance. Now there's a brave new departure in Irish politics. And yet you decry FF supporters who still follow their party?

marienbad · 27-03-2012 1:04am

Foghladh wrote: »

Ah! The steadfast refusal to consider voting for a party regardless of policy or circumstance. Now there's a brave new departure in Irish politics. And yet you decry FF supporters who still follow their party?

Are you aware of the irony in your post ? ''and yet you decry FF supporters who still follow their party'' and steadfastly refuse to vote for any other party . And this despite over 40 years of curruption !

Foghladh · 27-03-2012 7:46am

marienbad wrote: »

Are you aware of the irony in your post ? ''and yet you decry FF supporters who still follow their party'' and steadfastly refuse to vote for any other party . And this despite over 40 years of curruption !

Yeah I'm aware of the irony. It was kinda the point of the whole thing. The refusal to alter your viewpoint regardless of the current situation isn't a very wise decision in my opinion. It's just the flip side that's all

27-03-2012 12:21pm

margio wrote: »

Who I vote for, and why I vote for them is my own business. If I like the candidate, and he has a great work rate when it comes to MY constituenncy, then I will not punish them for being Fianna Fail. There is still pleanty of good people in the party and in the Dail. Now as to what has come out in the papers tv etc, you don't seriously think that Fianna Fail are the only party involved, hello Lowry, Cosgrave????. Coming back to mass genocide it was the free state pricks,which Fine Gael has it's roots, that dragged my great grandfather and two of his brothers along the road before beating them sensless and eventually shooting them dead, leaving three widows behind and 9 kids without a Father. Fianna Fail has had great leaders. lynch, lemass Dev etc were fine statesmen. Not defending the undesirable actions of those three leaders, they still did great work. Bertie and Alberts work on the peace process can not be forgotten, Fine gael when in power were holding 'so called peace talks' with John Major with Sinn Fein outside the gate, like hello, where did they think they were going?. As for Charlie I would love to resurect him as Taoisech from the dead and send him over to deal with Merkel and Zarkozy, because he wouldn't take any ****, not like that lapdog Enda Kenny. I know people will be up in arms over that comment, but Haughey had balls of steel, and that what this country needs. Same goes for Dev/

My god!. I thought people like you had gone extinct. You do realise its not 1921 anymore ? Have you no consideration for the current and future generation at all ?. Its no wonder we live in a corrupt bankrupt state when there is still shockling attitudes like yours still existing.:rolleyes: You do realise its voters like you that has inflicted immigration on another generation of young Irish people and poverty on the rest. But keep living in the 1920's if thats all you can manage.

I'd love to see Fine gael, fianna fail, and sinn fein wiped out in the morning. Then you may have to engage your brain for the first time when voting. Then policies that effect living Irish people instead of your great grandaddy might come in to play.:mad:

Zombrex · 27-03-2012 1:24pm

margio wrote: »

If I like the candidate, and he has a great work rate when it comes to MY constituenncy, then I will not punish them for being Fianna Fail.

This attitude is, in my opinion, the cause of so much of the problems over the last 20 years.

The fact is you are not just voting for a TD, you are also voting for a party. We are not a country of independents. The TD with the great work rate in your consistency is going to vote with his party, that is the point of political parties. If you elect him you are giving him such a mandate. How much work he does locally is irrelevant when it comes to his support in the Dail for a party who's national policies have been disastrous for the country.

When you vote for a FF candidate you are voting for FF policies, because you are giving your TD a mandate to go to the Dail and vote with the party.

margio · 27-03-2012 1:57pm

Deleted User wrote: »

My god!. I thought people like you had gone extinct. You do realise its not 1921 anymore ? Have you no consideration for the current and future generation at all ?. Its no wonder we live in a corrupt bankrupt state when there is still shockling attitudes like yours still existing.:rolleyes: You do realise its voters like you that has inflicted immigration on another generation of young Irish people and poverty on the rest. But keep living in the 1920's if thats all you can manage.

I'd love to see Fine gael, fianna fail, and sinn fein wiped out in the morning. Then you may have to engage your brain for the first time when voting. Then policies that effect living Irish people instead of your great grandaddy might come in to play.:mad:

go to hell or to connaucht, who I vote for is my business, you were the one who mentioned genocide. I'm well aware what year it is thank you, i was only making reference to your remarks on genocide. Don't you dare blame me for the problems of this country, Fianna Fail were a catch all party during the boom, so mind your own business as to who everyone else votes for. You have your say. I'll have mine, and so will everyone else that bothers to cast their vote.

margio · 27-03-2012 2:05pm

Zombrex wrote: »

This attitude is, in my opinion, the cause of so much of the problems over the last 20 years.

The fact is you are not just voting for a TD, you are also voting for a party. We are not a country of independents. The TD with the great work rate in your consistency is going to vote with his party, that is the point of political parties. If you elect him you are giving him such a mandate. How much work he does locally is irrelevant when it comes to his support in the Dail for a party who's national policies have been disastrous for the country.

When you vote for a FF candidate you are voting for FF policies, because you are giving your TD a mandate to go to the Dail and vote with the party.

The same goes for you. You don't know who else I have voted for in the past. I have voted outside fianna fail many time, but i wont punish a politician I like because he's Fianna Fail.I will reward those who work for me.

Sunnyisland · 27-03-2012 2:43pm

Wasn't in the country from 1994 to 2006,Never voted for them before I left and haven't voted for them since I came back.

27-03-2012 3:25pm

margio wrote: »

go to hell or to connaucht, who I vote for is my business, you were the one who mentioned genocide. I'm well aware what year it is thank you, i was only making reference to your remarks on genocide. Don't you dare blame me for the problems of this country, Fianna Fail were a catch all party during the boom, so mind your own business as to who everyone else votes for. You have your say. I'll have mine, and so will everyone else that bothers to cast their vote.

Margio.

Fianna Fail voter = Fianna Fail Government = Corruption + Incompetence = Immigration+ Poverty

Its with people like you that these problems are allowed start, you cannot disown fianna fails actions when you helped put them into power.

Continuing to vote for them when for generations have been found to be corrupt and incompetent just speaks of me feinism. I'd say your grandparents fought for (what they seen as) the good of the country and not for themselves. You appear to have lost there ideals when now you vote for the party that does most for just you. When instead you should be voting for the party that does most for the country, or at least tries.

margio · 27-03-2012 3:33pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Margio.

Fianna Fail voter = Fianna Fail Government = Corruption + Incompetence = Immigration+ Poverty

Its with people like you that these problems are allowed start, you cannot disown fianna fails actions when you helped put them into power.

Continuing to vote for them when for generations have been found to be corrupt and incompetent just speaks of me feinism. I'd say your grandparents fought for (what they seen as) the good of the country and not for themselves. You appear to have lost there ideals when now you vote for the party that does most for just you. When instead you should be voting for the party that does most for the country.

So who in your opinion are these?

Kalimah · 27-03-2012 4:11pm

I voted first in 1981 and I have.never missed a general election since. I never gave FF as much as a number 12 on my ballot paper! My father was a staunch anti Haughey campaigner and woe betide anyone in the house who didn't agree. It did help that my mother was on the same side as my Dad! I think if you grew up seeing FF as the devil incarnate you're hardly likely to change.

Zombrex · 27-03-2012 7:02pm

margio wrote: »

The same goes for you.

Er, no it doesn't. When I vote I vote for the TD and the party. And I certainly do blame my TD for the faults of his or her party. That is the whole point of a party system.

margio wrote: »

You don't know who else I have voted for in the past.

Nor do I care, that is not relevant to the point at hand.

margio wrote: »

I have voted outside fianna fail many time, but i wont punish a politician I like because he's Fianna Fail.I will reward those who work for me.

Then you do not understand how the party system works.

A FF TD has a requirement to vote for the Fianna Fáil party agenda. If he doesn't he will be kicked out of the party. He signals to you, the electorate, that this is how he will behave in the Dail by running as a FF candidate. He could run as an independent, but doesn't.

If you are voting for a FF TD then you are voting for the national policies of the Fianna Fáil party.

Laminations · 27-03-2012 7:50pm

Zombrex wrote: »

If you are voting for a FF TD then you are voting for the national policies of the Fianna Fáil party.

This is the problem with Irish politics. Me fein voters voting for some 'local issues' TD irrespective of his party allegiance and the 'ethos' of that party. 'Ah yes the party seems to condone crooks and it mismanaged the economy but yer man looks after me well'. If some Irish equivalent of the BNP fielded a 'nice fella' would they vote for them? With voluntary membership of parties, your membership taints you by association.

Pfft. As reasonable as trying to pick a cherry out of a dirty diaper.

margio · 27-03-2012 9:19pm

Quote from Zombrex ''Then you do not understand how the party system works''
.
Excuse me but i have a degree in politics, so i know all about the party system. There is more to the Fianna Fail party than what you have just mentioned. Sean Lemass and Jack Lynch were honourable and decent politicians, and I feel that Brian Cowen was a man of incredible integrety. Ok Ireland is ****ed at the moment, but do you know for sure that FG / Lab etc would have done a better job.?, recessions come and go, and the smart economy will **** off as fast as the celtic tiger did. If I was to be totally honest, I would prefer a Government a in Germany that is made up of ministers with senior professional backgrounds in their area., but FG were all promioses with reform etc, and all they can do is look in to abolosishing the Seanad. It's not my fault that the party system i so domineering in this country. I will cast my vote as long as I am alive and physically able to do so, because people died so generations after them could cast a vote in this country. you say that you don't care that I have voted for others other than FF, but you berate me for voting for them.

Zombrex · 27-03-2012 10:31pm

margio wrote: »

Excuse me but i have a degree in politics, so i know all about the party system. There is more to the Fianna Fail party than what you have just mentioned. Sean Lemass and Jack Lynch were honourable and decent politicians

What the heck does that have to do with the current economic crisis?

Through the 2000s the FF government sustained an unsustainable property bubble, despite warnings from all quarters that was a terrible idea. This lead to both the economic crash when the property house of cards crumbled and the over stretching of the banks which had to be bailed out by the tax payer simply to continue with a functioning economy.

If the government had been kicked out by the people long before the crash of 2008 it is highly doubtful that a FG or Labour government would have continued the policies that just caused the government to fall.

But of course this didn't happen because the country was full of people who were more than happy to believe the FF nonsense.

margio wrote: »

I feel that Brian Cowen was a man of incredible integrety

If by "integrity" you mean almost super human ability to ignore all the advice he was getting in order to pretend that there was no problem, then I agree 100% with you.

margio wrote: »

It's not my fault that the party system i so domineering in this country.

It is your fault though if you ignore the party system we have in this country by voting solely on local issues and ignoring that the TD you elect to the Dail will vote with his party, which in the case of FF was for disastrous economic policies. How many swimming pools or pot holes he gets fixed won't change that.

If you don't like it vote for an independent.

margio wrote: »

you say that you don't care that I have voted for others other than FF, but you berate me for voting for them.

I said I don't have to know who you voted for, your position would be bad no matter which party you were voting for.

margio · 27-03-2012 10:50pm

Zombrex wrote: »

What the heck does that have to do with the current economic crisis?

Through the 2000s the FF government sustained an unsustainable property bubble, despite warnings from all quarters that was a terrible idea. This lead to both the economic crash when the property house of cards crumbled and the over stretching of the banks which had to be bailed out by the tax payer simply to continue with a functioning economy.

If the government had been kicked out by the people long before the crash of 2008 it is highly doubtful that a FG or Labour government would have continued the policies that just caused the government to fall.

But of course this didn't happen because the country was full of people who were more than happy to believe the FF nonsense.

But by voting for an independent, am I not fuelling the party system, we all know they can be very pivotal in creating a government

If by "integrity" you mean almost super human ability to ignore all the advice he was getting in order to pretend that there was no problem, then I agree 100% with you.

It is your fault though if you ignore the party system we have in this country by voting solely on local issues and ignoring that the TD you elect to the Dail will vote with his party, which in the case of FF was for disastrous economic policies. How many swimming pools or pot holes he gets fixed won't change that.

If you don't like it vote for an independent.

I said I don't have to know who you voted for, your position would be bad no matter which party you were voting for.

You are stupid to assume that FG and Lab would have avoided the crash. Someone gave an example earlier on in the thread about how FG promised to outspend FF coing up to the elections before the crash. You are also ignorant to assume that I don't agree with FF policys. They have as good policies as any parties. When everything was rosie in the garden every one wanted them to spend spend spend, (FG would have done the same), and when the whole thing collaped. every one was protesting against the cuts. Cuts had to be made, difficult decisions had to be taken, they were, but maybe not difficult enough, nothing like in Germany and Britain, who were also rocked by the recession.

Foghladh · 27-03-2012 10:52pm

Zombrex wrote: »

Through the 2000s the FF government sustained an unsustainable property bubble, despite warnings from all quarters that was a terrible idea. This lead to both the economic crash when the property house of cards crumbled and the over stretching of the banks which had to be bailed out by the tax payer simply to continue with a functioning economy.

If the government had been kicked out by the people long before the crash of 2008 it is highly doubtful that a FG or Labour government would have continued the policies that just caused the government to fall.

I'm afraid if you believe that you should really go back and do a little research. As recently as 2007 FG were in a race with FF to spend as much of the budget surplus as possible. If I recall they were predicting growth of about 4.5% and tax revenues within a few hundred millions of the FF estimate in their GE manifesto that year. The property bubble and all it's associated windfalls was firmly part of their strategy for managing the economy. They alongside Labour were proposing to drop income tax rates to match the FF proposals, the lower rate was dropping to 18% and allowances were on the increase. The golden goose was going to keep on delivering for them as well. I even have a recollection of Gerry Adams standing on a podium with the clarion call 'It's your money' repeated over and over again.

I won't defend FF for their handling of the economy but I won't delude myself that any of the opposition parties were in any way more attuned to the unsustainability of it. I firmly believe that the only discussion one can have in this regard is who would have dealt with the initial fallout better. And that's a hypothetical question now

margio · 27-03-2012 10:58pm

Laminations wrote: »

This is the problem with Irish politics. Me fein voters voting for some 'local issues' TD irrespective of his party allegiance and the 'ethos' of that party. 'Ah yes the party seems to condone crooks and it mismanaged the economy but yer man looks after me well'. If some Irish equivalent of the BNP fielded a 'nice fella' would they vote for them? With voluntary membership of parties, your membership taints you by association.

Pfft. As reasonable as trying to pick a cherry out of a dirty diaper.

I agree with certain aspects, but the only way to solve this properly is to give co councils more power in the form of regional governments eg provinces, then have a seperate cabinet made up of professionals in Dublin dealing with the issues that benefit the country as a whole.

meglome · 28-03-2012 5:48am

margio wrote: »

You are stupid to assume that FG and Lab would have avoided the crash. Someone gave an example earlier on in the thread about how FG promised to outspend FF coing up to the elections before the crash. You are also ignorant to assume that I don't agree with FF policys. They have as good policies as any parties. When everything was rosie in the garden every one wanted them to spend spend spend, (FG would have done the same), and when the whole thing collaped. every one was protesting against the cuts. Cuts had to be made, difficult decisions had to be taken, they were, but maybe not difficult enough, nothing like in Germany and Britain, who were also rocked by the recession.

We'll never know what might have happened. Though the Fianna Fail way was always to throw money at any problem, they have rarely shown any restraint. They as good as bought a few elections over the years whether that be by abolishing domestic rates, or tax decreases for the lower paid, or large social welfare increases, or pay increases for the public service. After the kicking Fine Gael got in the 2002 election for suggesting restraint we the public sowed the seeds for what eventually happened. So even though it's correct to say by 2007 all parties were promising the earth I'm still happy to say we ended up far worse with Fianna Fail. When the crunch came they tried to throw money at it as usual and we see how that worked out.

Pride Fighter · 28-03-2012 6:16am

margio wrote: »

I agree with certain aspects, but the only way to solve this properly is to give co councils more power in the form of regional governments eg provinces, then have a seperate cabinet made up of professionals in Dublin dealing with the issues that benefit the country as a whole.

Regional governments? So we can have the situation we had in the late 80's to mid 2000's were FF and FG dominated every council and zoned land corruptly. The only voices of reason were Labour who had one corrupt councillor that was thrown out after voting in a corrupt zoning decision straight away. FF and FG still have corrupt councillors from that time in their ranks. Labour and the Greens were the only voices of reason then, Trevor Sargeant was assaulted in a council chamber for ripping up a bribe all councillors got.

margio wrote: »

lynch, lemass Dev etc were fine statesmen.

Lynch, bankrupted the country in the 1980's with his giveaway election of 1977.
Dev, kept Ireland in economic penury from 1932-1959.
Lemass, modest economic gains. Maintained the Catholic Churches special role in society, to the detriment of thousands beaten and abused in a Catholic run education system. Also to the detriment of mothers who could not divorce, even if their husband was beating and raping them. Also to women who had to quit their jobs if they got married.

but Haughey had balls of steel, and that what this country needs. Same goes for Dev/

Haughey apparently 'stood up to Thatcher' according to FFers. Haughey was an economic Thatcherite. Setting up the IFSC, to rival the city of London as an international money laundering facility is something Margaret Thatcher would have been proud of. Haughey was also corrupt to the core, and should never have held high office.

As for Dev, sending our constitution to be proof read by the Vatican in 1937 showed no balls of steel. Showing balls of steel would have been creating a true Republic, and not the Theocratic hell hole Ireland was up until very recently.

Laminations · 28-03-2012 12:05pm

margio wrote: »

I agree with certain aspects, but the only way to solve this properly is to give co councils more power in the form of regional governments eg provinces, then have a seperate cabinet made up of professionals in Dublin dealing with the issues that benefit the country as a whole.

There definitely needs to be a separation in local/community affairs and national governance. The end of constituency clinics would be a start. Any local issues are taken to the council (who are voted in at senior positions by the people). Bi-weekly or monthly town hall meetings would then be the forum to raise national issues and get updates from your TD. These public meetings would be attended (on stage) by any government or opposition TDs for that area and anyone from the council or with some reasonable mandate intending to run for a national seat to voice their concerns and share their views. They'd be independently moderated and take questions from the audience (the local community). Discussion of local issues would not be permitted here unless it was an issue resulting from national policy. This would end the behind closed doors clinic meetings which lack transparency and waste TDs time.

People may criticise such a system by saying that local councillors who have a local presence and solve local issues daily would then be voted to national office and TDs would lose out. But I think the distinction would mean people are more likely to retain good councillors and only 'promote' them on the back of a good performance at the town hall meetings where they could demonstrate their suitability for the Dail and national politics.

But margio, while you're waiting for that to happen you need to vote on a candidate with consideration of the party they stand for.

Zombrex · 28-03-2012 1:41pm

Foghladh wrote: »

I'm afraid if you believe that you should really go back and do a little research. As recently as 2007 FG were in a race with FF to spend as much of the budget surplus as possible. If I recall they were predicting growth of about 4.5% and tax revenues within a few hundred millions of the FF estimate in their GE manifesto that year. The property bubble and all it's associated windfalls was firmly part of their strategy for managing the economy. They alongside Labour were proposing to drop income tax rates to match the FF proposals, the lower rate was dropping to 18% and allowances were on the increase. The golden goose was going to keep on delivering for them as well. I even have a recollection of Gerry Adams standing on a podium with the clarion call 'It's your money' repeated over and over again.

I won't defend FF for their handling of the economy but I won't delude myself that any of the opposition parties were in any way more attuned to the unsustainability of it. I firmly believe that the only discussion one can have in this regard is who would have dealt with the initial fallout better. And that's a hypothetical question now

You didn't read my post properly. The other parties eventually ended up copied FF because it was the popular thing to do, despite terrible terrible policies FF were riding high. Of course the other parties start promising more of the same.

What the country should have done is kick FF out of power and giving a clear mandate to the other parties that this is not what they wanted. They didn't because it was what the country wanted. We were happy to revel in the good times and believe the nonsense.

Zombrex · 28-03-2012 1:46pm

margio wrote: »

You are stupid to assume that FG and Lab would have avoided the crash. Someone gave an example earlier on in the thread about how FG promised to outspend FF coing up to the elections before the crash.

Political parties do not avoid a crash like the one we had, countries do. The country should have kicked out FF and then demanded the other parties change the direction of the country. Oddly this is how democracy is supposed to work.

margio wrote: »

You are also ignorant to assume that I don't agree with FF policys. They have as good policies as any parties. When everything was rosie in the garden every one wanted them to spend spend spend, (FG would have done the same), and when the whole thing collaped.

Hence bad policies

What part of their economy policies in the 2000s did you agree with?

margio · 28-03-2012 1:53pm

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Regional governments? So we can have the situation we had in the late 80's to mid 2000's were FF and FG dominated every council and zoned land corruptly. The only voices of reason were Labour who had one corrupt councillor that was thrown out after voting in a corrupt zoning decision straight away. FF and FG still have corrupt councillors from that time in their ranks. Labour and the Greens were the only voices of reason then, Trevor Sargeant was assaulted in a council chamber for ripping up a bribe all councillors got.

Lynch, bankrupted the country in the 1980's with his giveaway election of 1977.
Dev, kept Ireland in economic penury from 1932-1959.
Lemass, modest economic gains. Maintained the Catholic Churches special role in society, to the detriment of thousands beaten and abused in a Catholic run education system. Also to the detriment of mothers who could not divorce, even if their husband was beating and raping them. Also to women who had to quit their jobs if they got married.

Haughey apparently 'stood up to Thatcher' according to FFers. Haughey was an economic Thatcherite. Setting up the IFSC, to rival the city of London as an international money laundering facility is something Margaret Thatcher would have been proud of. Haughey was also corrupt to the core, and should never have held high office.

As for Dev, sending our constitution to be proof read by the Vatican in 1937 showed no balls of steel. Showing balls of steel would have been creating a true Republic, and not the Theocratic hell hole Ireland was up until very recently.

It was 1937, Church and state were hand in hand, It wasn't that many years before that Catholics were subjected to penal laws. It's fine for us all to look back now and criticise the political-religion actions taken. we were a devout religious country, compared to now, so it easy now to wonder why church and state wern't seperate. But only for Dev the 26 counties wouldn't entirely be free. Cumann na Gaedhael had no intention of removing oath, claiming back treaty ports etc.Same goes for Lemass, he industrialised Ireland. Where himself and Dev differed were areas such as entry in to the EEC. Dev didn't want us to lose our soveirngty in anyway, and looking back now, maybe he was right, maybe he wasn't. As for regional government, as long as TD'S are elected by their constituents there will always be pork barrell politics and localism will flourish under those conditions. If there were regional /provicial governments, they should be responsible for potholes, all the **** that our legislators should not be dealing with.

Did You ever vote Fianna Fail?

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