talking to the ref, who should be allowed to?

Mint Sauce · 23-03-2008 9:43pm #1

have been having discussions on this another forum site, and has been bought up again following the utd v liverpool game today, and the sugestion for a rugby type rule were the only players who talk to the ref are the captains, and other players if only called apon by the ref, and where you often see in rugby, referees telling the captains to talk to their players

mascerhano in my own opinion should have kept his mouth shut today (liverpool fan btw), especailly after his booking and the recent discussions by premier leauge managers in the last week, if this rule sugested above was in use, there would be no remenstrating with the officals, players would only talk to the ref when approached by him, players would not be crowding the ref trying to imtimadte him, and in todays example, it would have been totally acceptable for bennet to have said to gerrard to talk to your player, have some control over him, or he is going off

loads more rule changes regarding the referee's and players attudes could be discussed, but lets do this one for now, whats everyone elses feeling on it

mike65 · 23-03-2008 9:49pm

Do it as they do in rugby. A game for thugs played by gentlemen (mainly).

Mike.

Mint Sauce · 23-03-2008 9:50pm

mike65 wrote: »

Do it as they do in rugby

Mike.

my point exactly, just in relation to only one player being allowed to talk to the ref, ie the captain

corcaighcailin9 · 23-03-2008 9:53pm

Yeah I agree it should be left to captains only to talk to refs.

mike65 · 23-03-2008 9:54pm

Exactly.

In football the role of captain is pretty "nebulous" unlike rugby and cricket where the holder has quite a bit of specified power if the same appied to the Association game those who hold the role might be better men for it.

Also the ref should be miked as they are in rugby so we can all hear the conversation (tell granny to wear earmuffs).

Mike.

corcaighcailin9 · 23-03-2008 9:57pm

The miking up of refs would be pretty interesting alright. If only it was in play for the Chelsea v Spurs game a couple of years ago when JT claims Graham Poll told them they needed to be taught a lesson lol

Keano · 23-03-2008 10:01pm

Agree with the captain being allowed talk to talk to the referee.

Mint Sauce · 23-03-2008 10:05pm

mike65 wrote: »

Also the ref should be miked as they are in rugby so we can all hear the conversation (tell granny to wear earmuffs).

Mike.

corcaighcailin9 wrote: »

The miking up of refs would be pretty interesting alright. If only it was in play for the Chelsea v Spurs game a couple of years ago when JT claims Graham Poll told them they needed to be taught a lesson lol

interesting idea, although with the current language from the EPL players, every televised game woulf have to be played after the watershed, and would go as far as advicing granny to leave the room

captains should be given a role in incidents like this, if it was introduced, but should maybe know not to reminstraite them selves, and still remember that it is the ref in charge, which alot of players seem to be forgetting nowadays

GBX · 23-03-2008 10:11pm

They tried miking up the refs years ago. Nobody told Tony Adams ... he was effing and blinding away without know. I dont think it wouldnt help the game that much.

Captains only speaking directly to the ref would. Although I hope it wouldnt slow the game down with the ref waiting on the rest of the players to move away to speak directly to a captain/captains.

corcaighcailin9 · 23-03-2008 10:12pm

I think the main prob is that it is just the accepted norm these days to say anything you like to the ref. I mean how many times in a game to you easily lip read someone cursing at the ref?
It's one thing if a player is genuinely hard done by but Mascherano's first tackle on Scholes was a definite yellow - I don't know what he was arguing for, it just seemed to be a case of challenging the ref for the sake of it. And not to bring Ashley Cole in unreasonably here but he went ballistic on Weds shouting at the ref when replays clearly show he got nowhere near the ball.
It's one thing to be p!ssed off when a ref gets a call wrong, but quite another when a pro who has such influence over young people challenges the authority of the ref when he clearly has no grounds to do so.

BaZmO* · 23-03-2008 10:12pm

According to Football Focus yesterday there will a trial done during the Charidee Sheild where the captains will be the only ones allowed to question or approach the referee.

Also, a point worth noting (according to Graham Poll) is that referees don't get much support from the FA when it comes to booking players for dissent, claiming that their hands are tied due to the Premier League's guidelines/wishes on the matter.

Forgot to add that the FA are also bringing in the "Captains Only" initiative to grass roots football next year. But as has been pointed out what's the point in starting with kids when the players that they look up to are getting away with it week in week out? But again, the FA can't impose rules like that on the PL without the PL's permission/co-operation.

Helix · 23-03-2008 10:17pm

the captain and the bloke involved in the incident, but when the ref tells him to go away, he should go away

2 or 3 weeks of the refs clamping down on it properly would see an end to it straight up

if a player whos not the captain or wasnt involved in it runs up to the ref, the ref tells him he has 2 seconds to be quiet and step away or hes getting booked, if he doesnt, yellow card, if he still continues, send him off

thatd put an end to it very bloody sharpish

OhNoYouDidn't · 23-03-2008 10:17pm

anyone on the pitch or management should be allowed talk to the ref. if what is said is abusive, refs have the power to deal with the offender. thats should be that.

are you arguing that a player shouldnt, for example, be allowed point out to the ref that a player is badly hurt out of his view?

referees are a protected species these days, they have become above criticism.

leninbenjamin · 23-03-2008 10:19pm

mike65 wrote: »

A game for thugs played by gentlemen (mainly).

whereas football is a gentlemen's game played by thugs (there i said it

).

the problem wont be easily resolved by an odd rule change. the problem is clearly deep rooted at all levels of the game, from the authority afraid of a media backlash, to managers and coaches who seek to exploit this vulnerability in refs (I've no doubt in my mind that certain coaches encourage this behaviour as it certainly yields results). if this is going to be overcome it will have to be enforced at all levels from grassroots up to FIFA. but i dont think, apart from of course the odd half hearted statement in the media, that anyone is really willing to get the ball rolling on this, as it's not exactly a new problem is it?

el rabitos · 23-03-2008 10:25pm

only england internationals should be allowed talk to the ref. they're the best players and the only ones that dont foul opponents on purpose.

Mint Sauce · 23-03-2008 10:28pm

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

are you arguing that a player shouldnt, for example, be allowed point out to the ref that a player is badly hurt out of his view?

no, but when it comes to the rules of the game, the refs decision should be final (altough some of them do stuggle with it), and there shoud be no arguement or remonstration on it

of course if a players genuienaly injuried, then fair enough, bring it to his attention, but as for agrueing, badgering, crowding, imdimation etc, then no

leninbenjamin · 23-03-2008 10:36pm

irish-stew wrote: »

no, but when it comes to the rules of the game, the refs decision should be final (altough some of them do stuggle with it), and there shoud be no arguement or remonstration on it

actually there's something i think is part of the problem. referee is human afterall and in the heat of the moment is going to make a few errors. i think they should be given the provision to note specific incidents in the match that they might be unsure about, and then make a decision on it out of the public eye after. might be useful for those rash tackles that can be difficult to decide whether they merit a red or not in a second...

themont85 · 23-03-2008 10:49pm

I think it was me who brought up the point of rugby earlier. I played rugby in school and football for a club and the attitudes towards refs were completely different. They're not immune to criticism in the media in rugby and from coachs but if the ref makes a mistake usually the captain has a polite word with the ref and its 9/10 left on the pitch. Of course if its an injury or asking the time anybody can ask the ref, its not that ridiculous . The rule should be brought in the top of the game but the whole culture needs to be changed as an above poster pointed out.

Actually I wonder how a ref at the top of the game in rugby would find doing a football game(obviousely i'm ignoring the different rules). I reckon a couple of players would be of the pitch and the ref wouldn't stand for the crap. At times watching soccer refs its like watching the weak teacher in school who everyone gave cheek to and the teacher would do just take it where as the rugby ones is the hard ass you would think twice about answering back to.

BaZmO* · 23-03-2008 10:58pm

Well I think that one of the main differences between rugby and soccer refs is that when it comes to rugby it's very difficult to challenge a ref's decision when you haven't actually seen the infringement because you had your head wedged up the backside of a 20 stone prop or you were at the bottom of a 2 tonne pile up. That and the fact that the rules are quite complicated.

In soccer everybody generally sees what happens all the time so feels that they have a right to challenge a decision.

I also think it's a bit of a class thing.

Mint Sauce · 23-03-2008 10:59pm

themont85 wrote: »

Actually I wonder how a ref at the top of the game in rugby would find doing a football game(obviousely i'm ignoring the different rules). I reckon a couple of players would be of the pitch and the ref wouldn't stand for the crap. At times watching soccer refs its like watching the weak teacher in school who everyone gave cheek to and the teacher would do just take it where as the rugby ones is the hard ass you would think twice about answering back to.

+1

alot of players are too pampered and have had it easy for too long, as another poster said, this is something that needs to be brought up from grass roots, and stuck with, rather than an improvment for a few games

corcaighcailin9 · 23-03-2008 10:59pm

el rabitos wrote: »

only england internationals should be allowed talk to the ref. they're the best players and the only ones that dont foul opponents on purpose.

lol

Mint Sauce · 23-03-2008 11:00pm

BaZmO* wrote: »

In soccer everybody generally sees what happens all the time so feels that they have a right to challenge a decision.

I also think it's a bit of a class thing.

but the players tend to use bullying or harasment to make thier point, thats one of the things that needs to be stamped out

Mental Mickey · 23-03-2008 11:02pm

Captain and offending player(s) should be the only ones to be allowed talk to the ref.

Mint Sauce · 23-03-2008 11:06pm

Mental Mickey wrote: »

Captain and offending player(s) should be the only ones to be allowed talk to the ref.

offending players when the referee approaches them

BaZmO* · 23-03-2008 11:07pm

irish-stew wrote: »

but the players tend to use bullying or harasment to make thier point, thats one of the things that needs to be stamped out

I agree, and it can quite easily be stopped but obviously the powers that be don't see it as too much of a problem.

Dissention is obviously just the buzz word of the week and the outrage will pass once the next one comes along. It was two-footed challenges not too long ago and video replays for refs before that. But I suppose being outraged is fun!

Mint Sauce · 23-03-2008 11:09pm

BaZmO* wrote: »

I agree, and it can quite easily be stopped but obviously the powers that be don't see it as too much of a problem.

without going off topic to much, but maybe that could also be something for club management to get invloved in, maybe have some kind of disaplianary procedure for such maters in thier contract

corcaighcailin9 · 23-03-2008 11:20pm

irish-stew wrote: »

without going off topic to much, but maybe that could also be something for club management to get invloved in, maybe have some kind of disaplianary procedure for such maters in thier contract

Again consistency would be the problem as no two clubs would have the same disciplinary procedures or enforce them properly if they did

Mint Sauce · 23-03-2008 11:24pm

corcaighcailin9 wrote: »

Again consistency would be the problem as no two clubs would have the same disciplinary procedures or enforce them properly if they did

consistancy could be a whole new debate, there simply just is not enough of it at any level

corcaighcailin9 · 23-03-2008 11:37pm

You're right there Ted

OhNoYouDidn't · 24-03-2008 12:54am

irish-stew wrote: »

no, but when it comes to the rules of the game, the refs decision should be final (altough some of them do stuggle with it), and there shoud be no arguement or remonstration on it

of course if a players genuienaly injuried, then fair enough, bring it to his attention, but as for agrueing, badgering, crowding, imdimation etc, then no

but the referee already has powers to deal with the atrocoties you listed.

they should use the rules they have without needing this arbitrary rule where players can not communicate with the ref.

herbieflowers · 24-03-2008 12:55am

atrocities? haha

BrianCalgary · 24-03-2008 3:20pm

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

anyone on the pitch or management should be allowed talk to the ref. if what is said is abusive, refs have the power to deal with the offender. thats should be that.

are you arguing that a player shouldnt, for example, be allowed point out to the ref that a player is badly hurt out of his view?

referees are a protected species these days, they have become above criticism.

You're dead right, anyone should be allowed to talk to the ref. As a coach, player and ref, the best games are those when dialogue happens between all players, coaches and refs.

As long as the chatter keeps respectful than there is no problem.

Mascharenos problem was the language he used, and the sprinting 30yards across the field to give Bennett a piece of his mind was the final straw as he'd had a yap after every foul either way.

If it was just captains you'd have a lot more frustrated players. I would rather a player give his frustrations to me as opposed to hammering and injuring an opponent.

Kevster · 25-03-2008 12:29am

I am of the opinion that only the captain should be allowed to talk to the referee. It's a pity therefore when you realise that managers choose absolute immature plonkers as captains for their teams. You've heard this before but just look at how they do it in rugby - Why can't soccer be like that?

The fact of the matter is that soccer players are spoiled brats.

Chardee MacDennis · 25-03-2008 1:03am

el rabitos wrote: »

only england internationals should be allowed talk to the ref. they're the best players and the only ones that dont foul opponents on purpose.

and they never dive, or try to take the cards out of the refs hand etc, etc...

wouldnt it be nice if there were no english players in the prem, we would get a lot more unbiased refereeing and media then!

Kevster wrote: »

I am of the opinion that only the captain should be allowed to talk to the referee. It's a pity therefore when you realise that managers choose absolute immature plonkers as captains for their teams. You've heard this before but just look at how they do it in rugby - Why can't soccer be like that?

The fact of the matter is that soccer players are spoiled brats.

in fairness i have seen BOD give some refs a fierce amount of abuse and dont get me started on Delaglio or Johnson who gave refs a bollicking in their time...

jank · 25-03-2008 1:21am

Football could learn a lot from Rugby and the attituted to the ref should be
Number 1!

ziggy · 25-03-2008 9:35am

This post has been deleted.

prendy · 25-03-2008 10:45am

ziggy wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

then clubs wont make keepers captain.
seriously first day of next season the ref's should book anyone who gives them lip thats not the captain...if a few teams have a few men suspended it'll stop completely within 2-3 weeks.
the problem stems from the fact that players know they'll get away with it. its been happening for years....anyone hear thompson on soccer saturday?he basically said hei liverpool team of the 70's-80's were encouraged to harass the ref and he admitted that they were masters of it.

LuckyLloyd · 25-03-2008 10:56am

- Referee should be allowed to call any player over for a chat / telling off / etc;
- Apart from the captain, no player should be allowed to speak / complain / remonstrate to the ref;
- It should be incumbant upon the captain to communicate general concerns a referee has with a teams behaviour to his teammates;
- The referee should be able to book / send off a captain on behalf of a team that is persistently breaking certain rules and fails to modify their behaviour despite numerous warnings;
- Equally to the above, a captain should have the right to request an explanation of any decision made by a referee. This puts the onus on a ref to be able to clearly explain why they have made a certain decision;

You bring all the above in and there will never be more than one or two players from an individual team around a ref at any one time. There will be no more tantrums and bad language being spouted off at a ref after penalty decisions, etc. And the position of captain will be one of real representation and leadership.

Do that for six months and make it work - and then you will be able to mic up the ref and have their decisions and process transmitted to the fans and media in an open and transparent fashion.

ditpoker · 25-03-2008 1:17pm

at the end of the day it is football, its not rugby, its not played the same way. The speed is different, rugby is very stop start. its a different game. being able to question the ref and give out is part and parcel of the game. the ref's should be thick skinned enough to deal with an earful of abuse, if it gets out of hand send off players. the game would be very dull if a player got hacked down in the box at the speed the game goes and rather than protesting with 30,000 fans like all fans do, he just stood up and looked sheepishly at his captain 40 yards away and expect him to do the complaining... AND, when has any ref ever reversed a decision because of harassment. i agree the extreme harrassment should be punished, but giving out is part of the passion of the game.

players gave out and complained to Collina, but no one ever got in his face and abusive cos Collina can stamp his authority on a situation. This is more to do with the way ref's are trained and whether they can handle big game occasions. if they cant, they shouldn't be top level refs, if they can, then they should be able to handle a player giving out.

BaZmO* · 25-03-2008 1:24pm

ditpoker wrote: »

This is more to do with the way ref's are trained and whether they can handle big game occasions. if they cant, they should be top level refs, if they can, then they should be able to handle a player giving out.

That's probably the problem right there!!!

FatherTed · 25-03-2008 1:29pm

I don't think ANY PLAYER should talk to the referee. Why do they need to? If there is an infraction, the ref should just tell the players that the offence was and get on with it. Also, two referees possibly one in each half so they can consult with each other on borderline decisions like in the NFL. You don't NFL players crowding the refs or yapping at them, right?

OhNoYouDidn't · 25-03-2008 1:42pm

FatherTed wrote: »

I don't think ANY PLAYER should talk to the referee. Why do they need to? If there is an infraction, the ref should just tell the players that the offence was and get on with it. Also, two referees possibly one in each half so they can consult with each other on borderline decisions like in the NFL. You don't NFL players crowding the refs or yapping at them, right?

You do see it, but in the NFL you can query a decision during the game. So there is less of a need to get worked up at the ref, if he is wrong you can have his ruling over-turned.

Can we make a distinction between talking to the referee and surrounding him and giving him abuse? It would make the discussion a lot easier. Good refs communicate with the players. Bad refs get intimidated by players. Changing the rules wont change that dynamic.

What makes people think that if refs havent the bottle to book players for dissent under the current system that they will book players for saying 'hello' or 'ref, over there, that guy has a neck injury'?

Mr Alan · 25-03-2008 2:05pm

i think any player should be allowed talk to the ref as long as they are respectful.

Noelie · 25-03-2008 2:50pm

Mr Alan wrote: »

i think any player should be allowed talk to the ref as long as they are respectful.

You do know you're talking about footballer here.

I think there should be more sending off's like Mascheranos, the next time say Terry charges at a ref, with the rest of the team in tow, spitting fire for whatever reason, just out with the red card, you'd quickly see scenes like that dissappear from the game. as long as it is allowed to happen it will continue to happen.

NotWormBoy · 25-03-2008 2:55pm

Ref: "Anyone except the person I'm talking to me who is within ten feet of me after I count to 5 gets a yellow".

Player: "Go F*ck yerself, ref, yak yak yak".

Ref: Yellow.

Player: ...

The Ref's association should grow some balls. And the grassroots lot should instil some bloody discipline and respect in the kids from youth.

ROCKMAN · 25-03-2008 2:59pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

- Referee should be allowed to call any player over for a chat / telling off / etc;
- Apart from the captain, no player should be allowed to speak / complain / remonstrate to the ref;
- It should be incumbant upon the captain to communicate general concerns a referee has with a teams behaviour to his teammates;
- The referee should be able to book / send off a captain on behalf of a team that is persistently breaking certain rules and fails to modify their behaviour despite numerous warnings;- Equally to the above, a captain should have the right to request an explanation of any decision made by a referee. This puts the onus on a ref to be able to clearly explain why they have made a certain decision;

You bring all the above in and there will never be more than one or two players from an individual team around a ref at any one time. There will be no more tantrums and bad language being spouted off at a ref after penalty decisions, etc. And the position of captain will be one of real representation and leadership.
Do that for six months and make it work - and then you will be able to mic up the ref and have their decisions and process transmitted to the fans and media in an open and transparent fashion.

I must say I really like this idea ,
ever good post

Mr Alan · 25-03-2008 3:13pm

Noelie wrote: »

I think there should be more sending off's like Mascheranos, the next time say Terry charges at a ref, with the rest of the team in tow, spitting fire for whatever reason, just out with the red card, you'd quickly see scenes like that dissappear from the game. as long as it is allowed to happen it will continue to happen.

see thats the problem noelie, this rule will never be applied consistantly. it was even applied consistantly in the game at OT on saturday.

that is why it was unfair that Mascherano was sent off. cause for the rest of the season, the same thing probably wont happen again, he was victimised cause of the incident the week before, and he is an easy scape-goat.

_blank_ · 25-03-2008 3:48pm

Will you get a grip here, please.

"victimised", "scapegoat".

He was in the ref's ear all game. A ref that everyone, EVERYONE, knows is card-happy. He was already booked. He ran a distance to chat to the ref, yet again. He was booked a second time. He got a red card.

Yes, it was "inconsistant".

But that's part of the game. It shouldn't be, but everyone knows this ref is a bit "silly" when it comes to carding players. Added to that the Cashley debacle of midweek, and it was very obvious that this weekend there would be an incident like this.

Accept the fact that Mashcerano is just as much to blame for the sending off for acting the way he did.

Mr Alan, answer this question.

When you were watching the match, I assume you watched it with some friends/family members/whatever. Did any of these people mention that "it was coming"? Did you not see that "it was coming"? Because if no-one there did then it was the only football ground/pub/house in the damn world that at least one person didn't tbh.

kida · 25-03-2008 3:48pm

Mr Alan wrote: »

see thats the problem noelie, this rule will never be applied consistantly. it was even applied consistantly in the game at OT on saturday.

that is why it was unfair that Mascherano was sent off. cause for the rest of the season, the same thing probably wont happen again, he was victimised cause of the incident the week before, and he is an easy scape-goat.

unfair my hat - he should have went a lot earlier of anything.

talking to the ref, who should be allowed to?

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