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talking to the ref, who should be allowed to?

  • 23-03-2008 09:43PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,293 ✭✭✭✭


    have been having discussions on this another forum site, and has been bought up again following the utd v liverpool game today, and the sugestion for a rugby type rule were the only players who talk to the ref are the captains, and other players if only called apon by the ref, and where you often see in rugby, referees telling the captains to talk to their players

    mascerhano in my own opinion should have kept his mouth shut today (liverpool fan btw), especailly after his booking and the recent discussions by premier leauge managers in the last week, if this rule sugested above was in use, there would be no remenstrating with the officals, players would only talk to the ref when approached by him, players would not be crowding the ref trying to imtimadte him, and in todays example, it would have been totally acceptable for bennet to have said to gerrard to talk to your player, have some control over him, or he is going off

    loads more rule changes regarding the referee's and players attudes could be discussed, but lets do this one for now, whats everyone elses feeling on it


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88,968 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Do it as they do in rugby. A game for thugs played by gentlemen (mainly).

    Mike.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,293 ✭✭✭✭Mint Sauce


    mike65 wrote: »
    Do it as they do in rugby

    Mike.

    my point exactly, just in relation to only one player being allowed to talk to the ref, ie the captain


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 686 ✭✭✭corcaighcailin9


    Yeah I agree it should be left to captains only to talk to refs.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88,968 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Exactly.

    In football the role of captain is pretty "nebulous" unlike rugby and cricket where the holder has quite a bit of specified power if the same appied to the Association game those who hold the role might be better men for it.

    Also the ref should be miked as they are in rugby so we can all hear the conversation (tell granny to wear earmuffs).

    Mike.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 686 ✭✭✭corcaighcailin9


    The miking up of refs would be pretty interesting alright. If only it was in play for the Chelsea v Spurs game a couple of years ago when JT claims Graham Poll told them they needed to be taught a lesson lol


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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,810 Mod ✭✭✭✭Keano


    Agree with the captain being allowed talk to talk to the referee.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,293 ✭✭✭✭Mint Sauce


    mike65 wrote: »

    Also the ref should be miked as they are in rugby so we can all hear the conversation (tell granny to wear earmuffs).

    Mike.
    The miking up of refs would be pretty interesting alright. If only it was in play for the Chelsea v Spurs game a couple of years ago when JT claims Graham Poll told them they needed to be taught a lesson lol

    interesting idea, although with the current language from the EPL players, every televised game woulf have to be played after the watershed, and would go as far as advicing granny to leave the room

    captains should be given a role in incidents like this, if it was introduced, but should maybe know not to reminstraite them selves, and still remember that it is the ref in charge, which alot of players seem to be forgetting nowadays


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,109 ✭✭✭✭GBX


    They tried miking up the refs years ago. Nobody told Tony Adams ... he was effing and blinding away without know. I dont think it wouldnt help the game that much.

    Captains only speaking directly to the ref would. Although I hope it wouldnt slow the game down with the ref waiting on the rest of the players to move away to speak directly to a captain/captains.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 686 ✭✭✭corcaighcailin9


    I think the main prob is that it is just the accepted norm these days to say anything you like to the ref. I mean how many times in a game to you easily lip read someone cursing at the ref?
    It's one thing if a player is genuinely hard done by but Mascherano's first tackle on Scholes was a definite yellow - I don't know what he was arguing for, it just seemed to be a case of challenging the ref for the sake of it. And not to bring Ashley Cole in unreasonably here but he went ballistic on Weds shouting at the ref when replays clearly show he got nowhere near the ball.
    It's one thing to be p!ssed off when a ref gets a call wrong, but quite another when a pro who has such influence over young people challenges the authority of the ref when he clearly has no grounds to do so.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,625 ✭✭✭✭BaZmO*


    According to Football Focus yesterday there will a trial done during the Charidee Sheild where the captains will be the only ones allowed to question or approach the referee.

    Also, a point worth noting (according to Graham Poll) is that referees don't get much support from the FA when it comes to booking players for dissent, claiming that their hands are tied due to the Premier League's guidelines/wishes on the matter.


    Forgot to add that the FA are also bringing in the "Captains Only" initiative to grass roots football next year. But as has been pointed out what's the point in starting with kids when the players that they look up to are getting away with it week in week out? But again, the FA can't impose rules like that on the PL without the PL's permission/co-operation.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,661 ✭✭✭✭Helix


    the captain and the bloke involved in the incident, but when the ref tells him to go away, he should go away

    2 or 3 weeks of the refs clamping down on it properly would see an end to it straight up

    if a player whos not the captain or wasnt involved in it runs up to the ref, the ref tells him he has 2 seconds to be quiet and step away or hes getting booked, if he doesnt, yellow card, if he still continues, send him off

    thatd put an end to it very bloody sharpish


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    anyone on the pitch or management should be allowed talk to the ref. if what is said is abusive, refs have the power to deal with the offender. thats should be that.

    are you arguing that a player shouldnt, for example, be allowed point out to the ref that a player is badly hurt out of his view?

    referees are a protected species these days, they have become above criticism.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,983 ✭✭✭leninbenjamin


    mike65 wrote: »
    A game for thugs played by gentlemen (mainly).

    whereas football is a gentlemen's game played by thugs (there i said it :o).

    the problem wont be easily resolved by an odd rule change. the problem is clearly deep rooted at all levels of the game, from the authority afraid of a media backlash, to managers and coaches who seek to exploit this vulnerability in refs (I've no doubt in my mind that certain coaches encourage this behaviour as it certainly yields results). if this is going to be overcome it will have to be enforced at all levels from grassroots up to FIFA. but i dont think, apart from of course the odd half hearted statement in the media, that anyone is really willing to get the ball rolling on this, as it's not exactly a new problem is it?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,731 ✭✭✭el rabitos


    only england internationals should be allowed talk to the ref. they're the best players and the only ones that dont foul opponents on purpose.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,293 ✭✭✭✭Mint Sauce



    are you arguing that a player shouldnt, for example, be allowed point out to the ref that a player is badly hurt out of his view?

    no, but when it comes to the rules of the game, the refs decision should be final (altough some of them do stuggle with it), and there shoud be no arguement or remonstration on it

    of course if a players genuienaly injuried, then fair enough, bring it to his attention, but as for agrueing, badgering, crowding, imdimation etc, then no


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,983 ✭✭✭leninbenjamin


    irish-stew wrote: »
    no, but when it comes to the rules of the game, the refs decision should be final (altough some of them do stuggle with it), and there shoud be no arguement or remonstration on it

    actually there's something i think is part of the problem. referee is human afterall and in the heat of the moment is going to make a few errors. i think they should be given the provision to note specific incidents in the match that they might be unsure about, and then make a decision on it out of the public eye after. might be useful for those rash tackles that can be difficult to decide whether they merit a red or not in a second...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,608 ✭✭✭themont85


    I think it was me who brought up the point of rugby earlier. I played rugby in school and football for a club and the attitudes towards refs were completely different. They're not immune to criticism in the media in rugby and from coachs but if the ref makes a mistake usually the captain has a polite word with the ref and its 9/10 left on the pitch. Of course if its an injury or asking the time anybody can ask the ref, its not that ridiculous . The rule should be brought in the top of the game but the whole culture needs to be changed as an above poster pointed out.

    Actually I wonder how a ref at the top of the game in rugby would find doing a football game(obviousely i'm ignoring the different rules). I reckon a couple of players would be of the pitch and the ref wouldn't stand for the crap. At times watching soccer refs its like watching the weak teacher in school who everyone gave cheek to and the teacher would do just take it where as the rugby ones is the hard ass you would think twice about answering back to.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,625 ✭✭✭✭BaZmO*


    Well I think that one of the main differences between rugby and soccer refs is that when it comes to rugby it's very difficult to challenge a ref's decision when you haven't actually seen the infringement because you had your head wedged up the backside of a 20 stone prop or you were at the bottom of a 2 tonne pile up. That and the fact that the rules are quite complicated.

    In soccer everybody generally sees what happens all the time so feels that they have a right to challenge a decision.

    I also think it's a bit of a class thing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,293 ✭✭✭✭Mint Sauce


    themont85 wrote: »

    Actually I wonder how a ref at the top of the game in rugby would find doing a football game(obviousely i'm ignoring the different rules). I reckon a couple of players would be of the pitch and the ref wouldn't stand for the crap. At times watching soccer refs its like watching the weak teacher in school who everyone gave cheek to and the teacher would do just take it where as the rugby ones is the hard ass you would think twice about answering back to.

    +1

    alot of players are too pampered and have had it easy for too long, as another poster said, this is something that needs to be brought up from grass roots, and stuck with, rather than an improvment for a few games


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 686 ✭✭✭corcaighcailin9


    el rabitos wrote: »
    only england internationals should be allowed talk to the ref. they're the best players and the only ones that dont foul opponents on purpose.


    lol :D


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,293 ✭✭✭✭Mint Sauce


    BaZmO* wrote: »

    In soccer everybody generally sees what happens all the time so feels that they have a right to challenge a decision.

    I also think it's a bit of a class thing.

    but the players tend to use bullying or harasment to make thier point, thats one of the things that needs to be stamped out


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,718 ✭✭✭✭Mental Mickey


    Captain and offending player(s) should be the only ones to be allowed talk to the ref.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,293 ✭✭✭✭Mint Sauce


    Captain and offending player(s) should be the only ones to be allowed talk to the ref.

    offending players when the referee approaches them


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,625 ✭✭✭✭BaZmO*


    irish-stew wrote: »
    but the players tend to use bullying or harasment to make thier point, thats one of the things that needs to be stamped out
    I agree, and it can quite easily be stopped but obviously the powers that be don't see it as too much of a problem.

    Dissention is obviously just the buzz word of the week and the outrage will pass once the next one comes along. It was two-footed challenges not too long ago and video replays for refs before that. But I suppose being outraged is fun!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,293 ✭✭✭✭Mint Sauce


    BaZmO* wrote: »
    I agree, and it can quite easily be stopped but obviously the powers that be don't see it as too much of a problem.

    without going off topic to much, but maybe that could also be something for club management to get invloved in, maybe have some kind of disaplianary procedure for such maters in thier contract


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 686 ✭✭✭corcaighcailin9


    irish-stew wrote: »
    without going off topic to much, but maybe that could also be something for club management to get invloved in, maybe have some kind of disaplianary procedure for such maters in thier contract

    Again consistency would be the problem as no two clubs would have the same disciplinary procedures or enforce them properly if they did


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,293 ✭✭✭✭Mint Sauce


    Again consistency would be the problem as no two clubs would have the same disciplinary procedures or enforce them properly if they did

    consistancy could be a whole new debate, there simply just is not enough of it at any level


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 686 ✭✭✭corcaighcailin9


    You're right there Ted :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    irish-stew wrote: »
    no, but when it comes to the rules of the game, the refs decision should be final (altough some of them do stuggle with it), and there shoud be no arguement or remonstration on it

    of course if a players genuienaly injuried, then fair enough, bring it to his attention, but as for agrueing, badgering, crowding, imdimation etc, then no

    but the referee already has powers to deal with the atrocoties you listed.

    they should use the rules they have without needing this arbitrary rule where players can not communicate with the ref.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,604 ✭✭✭herbieflowers


    atrocities? haha


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