Ireland to go down the Electric car route?

Zube · 29-04-2009 11:01am

seamus wrote: »

However, you could wrap a BMW around it, stick a celebrity in the back and call it a "car".

Or google the Honda FCX, available to lease (and yes, to refill with Hydrogen) in California for some time now.

Johnny Utah · 29-04-2009 11:10am

The future of the car will be a hydrogen-powered fuel cell. It's already in use in California. Top Gear covered this car a year or two ago. Also, as Jay Leno says, there will still be a very small number of exclusive petrol cars (Ferrari, Porsche, etc) still made in the future. However, the vast majority of ordinary cars on our roads will be hydrogen-powered.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOfzbaglUOo

seamus · 29-04-2009 11:37am

I stand corrected so.

Fiona500 · 29-04-2009 3:02pm

Oh! James May said so?! Then it MUST be true.

peasant · 29-04-2009 3:11pm

One might want to take note of the company logo on the hydrogen pump and then one might want to draw one's own conclusions as to how much money is to be made in hydrogen making and distribution (as opposed to plugging in a vehicle at home for the night) and then one might wonder how much of the statement that hydrogen is the fuel of the future is truth and how much of it is profit orientated wishful thinking. That thought process might be further helped by remembering which powerful companies will end up without revenue once fossil fuels come to an end.

Or one could just go ahead and swallow it undigested

seamus · 29-04-2009 3:35pm

peasant wrote: »

One might want to take note of the company logo on the hydrogen pump and then one might want to draw one's own conclusions as to how much money is to be made in hydrogen making and distribution (as opposed to plugging in a vehicle at home for the night) and then one might wonder how much of the statement that hydrogen is the fuel of the future is truth and how much of it is profit orientated wishful thinking. That thought process might be further helped by remembering which powerful companies will end up without revenue once fossil fuels come to an end.

Or one could just go ahead and swallow it undigested

From any company's point of view, it makes sense to push ahead with another liquid fuel source as it requires very little effort (comparably) to adapt to it. That is, consumers are already familiar with the delivery method, and all it requires is a new tank and a new pump in each petrol station.

Switching to a recharge-style pump or battery exchange would require drastic inventiveness on the part of fuel manufacturers to find new ways of screwing us over.

What might be interesting is that although the energy is produced by a "fuel", hydrogen vehicles are still essentially electric ones and not internal combustion. Which means that it should (theoretically) be possible to produce battery and hydrogen versions of the same vehicle with little cost overhead, or to even have the hydrogen "module" of the vehicle swapped out for a battery one.

peasant · 29-04-2009 3:58pm

Current battery technology is such that one charge would last for 50 - 80 miles and an overnight recharging is good enough to fill the batteries completely. 50-80 miles covers the vast majority of car journeys and plugging something in is familiar to all of us. After so many hours of use the batteries would come to and of life and during a "service" would be replaced with new ones. Nothing unfamiliar there either.

Hopefully this could be improved upon to get more mileage per charge.

The only need for "filling stations" or exchange stations would be for longer car journeys. This could be covered by comparatively few dedicated quick charge stations along the main routes and major junctions.
There would be a need for far less "quick charge stations" than there currently are petrol stations as your main "fuel pump" would be the socket at home and at work.

One might want to draw one's own conclusion who that would and wouldn't suit

professore · 29-04-2009 4:04pm

'scorthy wrote: »

There is an Irish company manufacturing EV for the Dublin metropolitan area: http://www.greenaer.ie

Distributing, not manufacturing.

professore · 29-04-2009 4:06pm

Pedro K wrote: »

http://www.ecosilly.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/88e6d_pierce-brosnan-bmw-h7-81958452.jpg

Pierce Brosnan has a hydrogen powered 7 series.
BMW must have overcome said hurdle.

I would put Pierce Brosnan in an extremely flammable death trap

Mr Benevolent · 29-04-2009 4:29pm

Current battery technology is such that one charge would last for 50 - 80 miles and

Not quite. The late model GM EV1 could do 140 miles and the Tesla Roadster can do 220 miles on one charge. A recent breakthrough in lithium battery technology means that charging to 90% in 1 minute is on the cards (It's been done in the lab). Battery technology is jumping ahead far faster than people think.

nicksinthemix · 30-04-2009 1:06am

spank_inferno wrote: »

Wont work & cant work

It will work.

1) Is there enough lithium on the planet to manufacture the millions of kilo's of battery's necessary to power Irelands fleet of cars?... I doubt it!

There is enough available lithium on the planet for 2.4 billion cars.

2) The vehicles lack the versatility to make them viable.

Last time I checked technology had the ability of moving on.

3) The cost of the switch in infrascture would be too enormous. (including garages for maintenance)

Yes. I'm sure it compares with of conventional garages.

4) Where does the electricity come from???

Personally I don't think we're ready. Where will this electricity come from? I doubt it will be from renewable sources.

So we just wait?

It's called being strategic. You imagine where you want to be and plan accordingly. It might mean doing more than one thing at a time and we do this every day (I bought food as well as cooked because I wanted dinner. I didn't give up at the empty fridge).

Powering an electric car off a power supply almost entirely fueled by burning carbon only moves the co2 problem further down the chain

Congrats on pointing that out.

What is easier to take care of:

1) chaotic mass of individually owned moving objects emitting CO2?

2) a downstream network of powerplants owned by the ESB?

It's as elementary as recognising that energy to power a car comes from somewhere.

What's more difficult to get to grips with is how to take advantage of a new market.

You can't just rip off this technology and make it for cheaper. It's why EVs haven't been ready - it takes each company years of R&D. Just look at Toyota. Who else competes for the lions share of the hybrid market? Honda. Why? Because they got started within two years of Toyota.

Years have now been put in by some companies. Lithium Ion and computerisation have been they key leavers. MIT announced that 10 minute charge times will be on the market within three years. The price of lithium is set to drop by half (it already has in recent years and all experts are saying it's got further to go).

Hydrogen cars are 40 years away. Biofuels are not an option. One hector of grain will drive a biodethonol vehicle about 22,500km (6.5l/100km). A one hector solar installation will produce enough energy to drive a plug-in vehicle 3,250,000km (16kWh/100km).

I guarentee you all, the EV market is poised to launch. The R&D stage is about to give way to the market & road testing stage. We have an opportunity to be part of that process.

Think about it, with every major car company set to release their EVs in 2011 for general sale, some are going to try and jump the gun to gain an early advantage. They'll be looking for the right place to do it and Ireland, if it has the infastructure, could provide that. Our geography means that we could be the first criss-cross a country easily in an EV. Sweden wants that title but they're version of the ESB is composed of hundreds of individual companies.

And can we all please stop thinking that everything is impossible based on the way things are right at the moment? Victory belongs to those with the vision and our nation deserves better than one decade of genuine prosperity (assuming we can call it genuine).

towel401 · 30-04-2009 1:10am

there's only enough lithium around to make around 50 million cars. unless someone finds a huge lump of it in space and a way to bring it here

Johnboy Mac · 30-04-2009 1:19am

nicksinthemix wrote: »

It will work.

There is enough available lithium on the planet for 2.4 billion cars.

Last time I checked technology had the ability of moving on.

Yes. I'm sure it compares with of conventional garages.

So we just wait?

It's called being strategic. You imagine where you want to be and plan accordingly. It might mean doing more than one thing at a time and we do this every day (I bought food as well as cooked because I wanted dinner. I didn't give up at the empty fridge).

Congrats on pointing that out.

What is easier to take care of:

1) chaotic mass of individually owned moving objects emitting CO2?

2) a downstream network of powerplants owned by the ESB?

It's as elementary as recognising that energy to power a car comes from somewhere.

What's more difficult to get to grips with is how to take advantage of a new market.

You can't just rip off this technology and make it for cheaper. It's why EVs haven't been ready - it takes each company years of R&D. Just look at Toyota. Who else competes for the lions share of the hybrid market? Honda. Why? Because they got started within two years of Toyota.

Years have now been put in by some companies. Lithium Ion and computerisation have been they key leavers. MIT announced that 10 minute charge times will be on the market within three years. The price of lithium is set to drop by half (it already has in recent years and all experts are saying it's got further to go).

Hydrogen cars are 40 years away. Biofuels are not an option. One hector of grain will drive a biodethonol vehicle about 22,500km (6.5l/100km). A one hector solar installation will produce enough energy to drive a plug-in vehicle 3,250,000km (16kWh/100km).

I guarentee you all, the EV market is poised to launch. The R&D stage is about to give way to the market & road testing stage. We have an opportunity to be part of that process.

Think about it, with every major car company set to release their EVs in 2011 for general sale, some are going to try and jump the gun to gain an early advantage. They'll be looking for the right place to do it and Ireland, if it has the infastructure, could provide that. Our geography means that we could be the first criss-cross a country easily in an EV. Sweden wants that title but they're version of the ESB is composed of hundreds of individual companies.

And can we all please stop thinking that everything is impossible based on the way things are right at the moment? Victory belongs to those with the vision and our nation deserves better than one decade of genuine prosperity (assuming we can call it genuine).

Extremely well written. Very impressed.

robtri · 30-04-2009 8:20am

towel401 wrote: »

there's only enough lithium around to make around 50 million cars. unless someone finds a huge lump of it in space and a way to bring it here

that should be enough till they develop the next level of battery.. or ultra capacitor's

Mr Benevolent · 30-04-2009 9:11am

Yup, ultracapacitors and flywheels are the way to go. Hydrogen ain't viable for the moment.

Zube · 30-04-2009 10:24am

nicksinthemix wrote: »

Hydrogen cars are 40 years away.

California is a little ahead of Ireland, but not 40 years, and they have Hydrogen cars today.

Think about it, with every major car company set to release their EVs in 2011 for general sale, some are going to try and jump the gun to gain an early advantage. They'll be looking for the right place to do it and Ireland, if it has the infastructure, could provide that.

Hooray! Let's beta test a bunch of crappy EV prototypes!

You first.

Gatster · 30-04-2009 1:08pm

nicksinthemix wrote: »

Our geography means that we could be the first criss-cross a country easily in an EV.

You may not have noticed but 'Our geography' somehow means we still don't have a 'proper' motorway infrastructure, and they've had much more than 10 years to sort that out, so good luck with getting your electric infrastructure installed.

For the level of acceptance being discussed here, it has to be as (relatively) cheap as motoring is now, if there is no real incentive or the cost is prohibitive, people won't do it. As much as I really love petrol engines things do have to change. I'm all for this, I really am, I just don't think it's realistic.

Add to this the fact that on most main roads there are 'Services' signs, that don't actually lead to services (or any further signage once you come off the main road), so they'll be a lot of people looking for 'D' batteries just off the M1...:D

nicksinthemix · 30-04-2009 1:26pm

Zube wrote: »

California is a little ahead of Ireland, but not 40 years, and they have Hydrogen cars today.

Hooray! Let's beta test a bunch of crappy EV prototypes!

You first.

Can any californian go into an auto shop and buy a hydrogen car? Will they be able to in three years?

How long will it take them to develop an infrastructure which involes compressed hydrogen? Nobody has any real clue how this is going to be done. Compare that to the numerous private companies who are planning to rool out fast-charge stations (Ireland is one location and they're talking about 12 month time frames now) and likes of MIT who say that 10 miniute charge times are 3 years away from commercial availability.

It's up to us individualy to assume that any new product is ****e. Besides, the prototype stage is over. We're talking about proper production lines from now on. The stakes are too high for this to fail. The technology is ready and whoever gets it right wins BIG.

There are advantages to driving electric cars and if petrol gets any more expensive one argument in particular is going to stand out. I wouln'd mind being one of the first to skip a 5k annual price tag on running a petrol car. €2 at the pumps will make it at least that.

dvpower · 30-04-2009 1:51pm

towel401 wrote: »

there's only enough lithium around to make around 50 million cars. unless someone finds a huge lump of it in space and a way to bring it here

It seems that electric cars can only be a transition technology until hydrogen cars become viable.

http://www.evworld.com/library/lithium_shortage.pdf

Gatster · 30-04-2009 1:52pm

nicksinthemix wrote: »

Can any californian go into an auto shop and buy a hydrogen car? Will they be able to in three years?

How long will it take them to develop an infrastructure which involes compressed hydrogen? Nobody has any real clue how this is going to be done.

Not strictly true, you can lease a Clarity and the Hydrogen infractructure is already there of a fashion (map, website) so someone knows.

nicksinthemix wrote: »

Compare that to the numerous private companies who are planning to rool out fast-charge stations (Ireland is one location and they're talking about 12 month time frames now)

Who are these companies?

nicksinthemix · 01-05-2009 11:37am

Gatster wrote: »

Who are these companies?

ESB & EVOasis. We can all be sceptical of ESB but they're getting more and more convincing on this one. They seem to understand that you don't wait to match demand on this kind of thing.

EVOasis have recently been quite impressed with the political will here thanks to Simon Covney.

Say what you will but few people seem to understand the level of involvement the ESB is playing in European standardisation talks. They have their finger firmly in the pie and politicians are talking more and more about EVs.

Now, I do wonder why the govenrment won't move to directly incentivise like Norway or France have. At worst this is all hot air (in which case, some state bodies are going to have wasted a lot of time). At best, they're looking for a really bold move, something like Better PLace but without the monopoly.

BTW, there's a huge difference between concept and production cars. Hydrogen cars are concept cars and I do not know of any plans to mass rpoduce within the next five years. It's taken about 25 years of concept EVs to get this far. Now there are over 70 EV startups looking to go into full production within 2 years (some earlier). Mitsubishi will be one of the first big companies to go into production and we're talking about less than 2 years. Nissan-Renault are similar. GM will try and pioneer PHEVs on the production line (no exactly in good shape though). This is genuine activity and it's clear that the technology is ready. I don't see the same movement with the hydrogen car. It's more likely that that is the beginning of their concept stage and it will probably be 2030 before it reaches the point that Evs are at now.

Zube · 01-05-2009 12:12pm

nicksinthemix wrote: »

BTW, there's a huge difference between concept and production cars.

True. Care to name these production cars you're talking about?

The only one I know of is the Opel Ampera, optimistically due to be on sale in 2010 for a 2011 launch. The Ampera is a plug-in hybrid.

Mitsubishi has shown various MiEV prototypes, but a production car will be at least 2011. That'll be a 100 mile range pure EV mini, a niche product at best.

Renault-Nissan have made a lot of noise about a 2011 car, but I'd expect to see more tangible results by now if they are going to meet that date. They are also talking about a swappable battery pack because charge times are so long. This would be a nightmare.

Gatster · 01-05-2009 12:41pm

nicksinthemix wrote: »

They seem to understand that you don't wait to match demand on this kind of thing.

Had a look on the Evoasis website and there's nothing about a tie-in with ESB, just a mention of job creation, but it doesn't have anything about EV infrastructure here. The major problem with what you're saying is that currently, and for the immediate future, there is no real demand for EV's

It's all well and good banging on about 10 minute charges times, but this presumes that people have bought EV's with compatible technology which, if similar to most 'new' technologies, will be even more expensive than the current crop of EV's. Prices will literally have to tumble for any of this to become a reality, and genuine (ie. proven in real-world testing) 200+ mile range has to be the norm.

I mean, look at this, it's just ridiculous (comparative price, range)

Zube · 01-05-2009 1:22pm

Gatster wrote: »

I mean, look at this, it's just ridiculous

Well yes, but that's a converted C1, not a purpose build EV. I mean, it still has a 5 speed box, they just jam it in 3rd!!

This is rather illuminating though:

If you do venture outside the city, then the top speed of 60mph could be a frustrating limitation, but that’s a compromise that most buyers accept when they opt for Watts over horses.

Translation: everyone knows EVs are crap. Until EVs actually compete with other cars on level terms, they aren't going to sell in any numbers.

peasant · 01-05-2009 1:41pm

If you do venture outside the city, then the top speed of 60mph could be a frustrating limitation, but that’s a compromise that most buyers accept when they opt for Watts over horses.

If you use this vehicle in your standard rush hour 20-30km commute, you'd be lucky to reach 100 km'h anyway. So that point is not as important as it sounds

Zube · 01-05-2009 1:48pm

peasant wrote: »

If you use this vehicle in your standard rush hour 20-30km commute, you'd be lucky to reach 100 km'h anyway. So that point is not as important as it sounds

In practice, most people who commute alone in city traffic still buy cars capable of carrying 4 adults across the country, just in case they feel like it. Hardly anyone says "I really only need a Smart car for that trip".

Cosmo K · 01-05-2009 2:54pm

How do you acyually service an EV? Do you still have to change oil+filter every so often? Do they still have a clutch that needs changing after 150k mls? Does the electric motor need much maintenance, brushes etc?

nicksinthemix · 01-05-2009 3:35pm

Cosmo K wrote: »

How do you acyually service an EV? Do you still have to change oil+filter every so often? Do they still have a clutch that needs changing after 150k mls? Does the electric motor need much maintenance, brushes etc?

AC Induction motors are frictionless and electric cars tend to contain about one tenth the amount of moving parts of a conventonal car. Brakepads and tyres have to be serviced but there are no spark plugs etc.

The real issue is the battery life. It has to be serviced, diagnosed and after about three years, if its performance is starting to look doubtful, it will have to be changed. The cost can be hefty but incrementd over 3 years and compared to servicing and fuel costs it can still work out very well.

In practice, most people who commute...

Therein lies the most important aspect of a lot of the more negative thinking on EVs that goes on nowadays. Everyone drives a conventional car, right? So since an EV cant compare on certain aspects then nobody wants one?

People are more different than you might think. Running costs on fuel might speed up the process significantly but as the technology improves, more people will be brought into the fold.

What I've been saying all along is that we're at a unique point right now and there is an opportnity. It means looking ahead. Yes, something like a G-Wiz is a specialised product, but it has its benifits. Some people might think those benifits are irradicated by the limitations. But who is to say that everyone thinks that way?

Once again, we tend not to be so black & white in most areas of life. We drink knowing there's good and there's bad. T-totalers obviously think the ill-effects of booze completely irradicate the good parts. But are the rest of us in denial, or are we just prepared to live with the two sides of the same coin?

The information on EV startups is all out there. The stuff on EVoasis is not but they were in Dublin this week. An Irish delegation visited them in San Diago recently. Senan McGrath of ESB gave a lecture recently suggesting that it was time to really push ahead with the building of infrastructure.

peasant · 01-05-2009 4:01pm

Zube wrote: »

In practice, most people who commute alone in city traffic still buy cars capable of carrying 4 adults across the country, just in case they feel like it. Hardly anyone says "I really only need a Smart car for that trip".

Let's face it, most people (myself included) buy cars that are at least three sizes too big for their actual average needs ...be that in terms of power and/or size.

We do that simply because we can (afford to) do so.

When I was a kid, we went on holidays, driving 4000 km through Scandinavia with a small folding caravan in tow ...with a 60 bhp Opel Kadett Caravan. There were no problems whatsoever.

These days, people wouldn't consider doing this trip in anything less than a Landcruiser

Cheap oil and ever cheaper (relative to size and power) cars have enabled us to motor way above our needs and have some fun while doing so.

Well, I guess ...to an extent the fun is over / will be over shortly and we will have to become a bit more realistic again and drive what we need rather than want.

MODEDIT: peasant permabanned from motoring for spoiling the fun

Mr Benevolent · 01-05-2009 4:39pm

That said, some electric cars will be more fun. Linear torque, no gears, it'll be all about handling. No turbos failing, oil changes etc etc.

So they'll be easier and more fun.

galwaytt · 01-05-2009 5:22pm

Well, I've just spent 2 days at the Energy Show, and saw all the current electric offerings.

First, commercial. Unless you're in the flower business, you can forget the small stuff, you'll need the transit. In which case, you'll need to be in the Cash-in-Transit (sic

) business.........'cos it's an extra 40k over a conventional one.

Ditto the rigid truck. Lovely. But 96k instead of 35k ? Ok, if you're hauling gold bullion, I guess, but f-all, else.

Dublin bus: 359k ??? This, for a company that just let 120 people go ?

Even the Vextrix electric scooter - which I really, really like, btw, is useless to me - it wouldn't get me to/from Galway on one charge. - Range of 20-30miles, and 9k to buy ? Sorry, but my Aprilia Atlantic 500 or Suzuki Burgman 400 beats it hands down.........

The cars ranged from 11-17k. OK for two, MIEV nicely finished, but at twice the price of a Yaris ?

And finally, the question that nobody wanted to answer: how many times can you charge the batteries ? Answer, for most, was 500 cycles. So, given most commuting in this country, you will be charging it at least every second day, which means a full set of batteries every........1.4 years. Let's round it to 2.

I didn't get the price on the batteries, but the ones for the Priiiii parked beside them cost..........6k.

No matter which way you look at it - it does not add up - at those prices. I didn't even factor in the too-high price of electricity yet.....

If they were half that price, even with that technology, it would be viable, battery use included.

Zube · 01-05-2009 5:37pm

peasant wrote: »

Well, I guess ...to an extent the fun is over / will be over shortly and we will have to become a bit more realistic again and drive what we need rather than want.

No, I think that by the time we have to use electric cars, there will be electric cars that we would buy instead of current (:pac:) model petrol cars.

Today's electrified Noddy cars are not a realistic option. The only way we'll ever drive them is if some idiots elect a Green government that forces us.

Uh-oh.:(

Zube · 01-05-2009 5:53pm

nicksinthemix wrote: »

AYes, something like a G-Wiz is a specialised product, but it has its benifits. Some people might think those benifits are irradicated by the limitations. But who is to say that everyone thinks that way?

Nothing is stopping G-Wiz selling a million units in Ireland, except that the G-Wiz is a useless mickey-mouse deathtrap on wheels.

The Tesla is a real car, but it's a rich man's toy, an alternative to a Porsche. When someone makes an electric alternative to a Tiida, well hooray. Not that I'll buy one, but even one less Tiida on the road is good news.

murpheous81 · 02-05-2009 12:15am

With that shower of langers in government, how will they screw over those who do invest in a tesla or the honda hybrid(sorry - don't no the name)?

Will they tax the tyres for the car, increase energy bills, put a duty on them

If somebody decides to import one from the UK, who much or what method will they use to stiff us.

02-05-2009 11:00am

nicksinthemix wrote: »

Hydrogen cars are 40 years away. Biofuels are not an option. One hector of grain will drive a biodethonol vehicle about 22,500km (6.5l/100km). A one hector solar installation will produce enough energy to drive a plug-in vehicle 3,250,000km (16kWh/100km).

Links please!
You say hydrogen cars are 40 yrs away? Do you mean for the masses?

only 15,000 square miles could produce enough algae to meet all of the USA's ground transportation needs. Transportation accounts for 67% of US oil consumption according to the Atlantic Monthly, July/August 2005. We'll say more about the 15,000 square mile number below. If all of this land were in one rectangular piece, it would be 120 miles by 125 miles—about 1/7th of the area of the state of Colorado

Gallons of Oil per Acre per Year

Corn
18

Soybeans
48

Safflower
83

Sunflower
102

Rapeseed
127

Oil Palm
635

Micro Algae
5000-15000

http://www.oakhavenpc.org/cultivating_algae.htm

towel401 · 04-05-2009 10:35pm

dvpower wrote: »

It seems that electric cars can only be a transition technology until hydrogen cars become viable.

http://www.evworld.com/library/lithium_shortage.pdf

these ultra capacitor yokes show a lot of promise.. some slightly better nanotech and we`re in business

hydrogen has its uses but for now the fuel cells wear down as fast as a lithium battery

even that honda clarity thing uses a lithium ion battery as a buffer.

cianof · 29-06-2009 12:34am

Would you vote for all electric cars in Ireland?

I don't think the government is proposing that. I think they are trying to promote the use of electric cars in the country so as to increase to overall percentage of electric cars on the roads.

Would it be better to go the way of Honda and hydrogen?

The Honda FCX Clarity is an electric car.
http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/how-fcx-works.aspx

The question is whether hydrogen is a suitable fuel for generating electricity.
That's determined by the grid to motor efficiency. Currently hydrogen is not very efficient in comparison to plugin electric vehicles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy#Efficiency_as_an_automotive_fuel

That might change if a more efficient method of producing hydrogen is discovered.

kleefarr · 09-07-2009 8:23pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Links please!
You say hydrogen cars are 40 yrs away? Do you mean for the masses?

http://www.oakhavenpc.org/cultivating_algae.htm

Wow. We'd only need about 5Ksq then.

Good to see the votes slowly going up.

kodi · 17-07-2009 11:27am

Hi everyone. I'm usually just lurking around, but decided to add small situation update.

I was testing some battery solutions (still have NDAs in place, so don't ask for details). In summary - there are few companies in the world that are manufacturing high performance batteries. In 2006 I got some cells to be tested from US - they were recharged in 15 minutes, but energy density wasn't so impressive (roughly 60% of conventional Li-Ion batteries). In 2008 I finished testing cells that can be recharged under 10 minutes, and there was a 6% loss of capacity after 10000 (ten thousand) charge/discharge cycles. Did I mention they are mass produced now?

The same goes for ultracaps - I'm just holding in my hand 27F capacitor that has a size of conventional 1000uF/16V.

I just hope to get a possibility to test new Li-S cells when they hit the testing stage (current results of 1.3Ah/g in cathode are verry promising). Current target is to break the barrier of 2kWh/kg of cell.

So it's not a matter of technology not available. I'm strongly after EVs, but only the good designed ones. For example:

- why to mount just one engine as in ICE car? Simpler thing is to just mount the engine into the wheel - like Flightlink "pancake" engine. It eliminates the need of clutch, gearbox and brakes.
- who said that battery has to be stored only in one place? current cells are safe when damaged, so they can be spreaded and built into car structure giving additional levels of protection (and adding to the range as well)

there are only two problems left:
- price
- recharge method

For the first one - sorry - there has to be mass demand for it and support from governments. As one of my friends that works in the cell production factory said - price can be very attractive if correct order will be made.

Second - 55kWh is the amount of energy, that is roughly enough to drive for 500km. To recharge 55kWh of energy in 15 minutes you need the 230kW power supply. Pretty big figure? Install ultracaps at the filling station and your done!

(sorry for my English...)

kleefarr · 17-07-2009 1:27pm

Very interesting Kodi, thanks.

But what about the production of the electricity in the first place? Surely this has to be addressed before mass EV starts as the benefits of using EVs wouldn't be that great would they.

A large algae farm would produce a fair amount of Hydrogen, as pointed out by a previous poster. This seems a more attractive solution does it not?

(Don't worry about your English, it was fine, we have all seen worse.)

From Wikipedia...

"It would take an algae farm the size of the state of Texas to produce enough hydrogen to supply the energy needs of the whole world."

towel401 · 17-07-2009 1:54pm

even burning dino diesel in a generator and using that to charge an electric car is more efficient

10,000 charges without the 5-20% annual capacity drop of Li-ion would be good. ultracaps would be even better if the density is high enough

@kodi how many volts is that ultracap you are holding?

gpjordanf1 · 17-07-2009 2:30pm

hi on mobile so will be short.
1) tesla motors are bringing out a normal family car for sub 50k us dollars.
2)electric cars need no servicing as we know it, only thing you would need to do is change tires and top up windscreen washer. Motors are in each wheel so act as brakes and 2 or 4 wheel drive.
3)hydrogen wont be ready as a mainstream solution until 2050 even by optimists. Why wait?
4) battery tech is improving like pc chip technology, charge times are coming down and efficency is going up.
5)an electric car will whip any petrol or diesel car off the line, check out GM EV1 vs porsche or ferrari on you tube.
6)most peoples car journeys are sub 50 miles daily, not everyone but most people, so a 250 mile range car would only need to be charged every 4-5 day's, hardly a big deal?
7) electricity a big problem for us were 90% plus fossil production so completely defeat's the purpose, right? Ok what if ye were a 100% green electric producing country? Then all electric cars is the way to go? How do we do this? www.spiritofireland.org could be the answer, use wind energy to pump sea water into hydro dams to store and produce clean electricity. We even have the capacity to export energy. I've on connection to above just support the idea.
8) under these conditions what do people think now?

robtri · 17-07-2009 3:04pm

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

hi on mobile so will be short.
1) tesla motors are bringing out a normal family car for sub 50k us dollars.

a normal family car liek the ford focus in the USA cost $15,000, that means the Tesla normal family car is three times the price..... what normal family over here is going to pay around €64,000 for a car????

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

2)electric cars need no servicing as we know it, only thing you would need to do is change tires and top up windscreen washer. Motors are in each wheel so act as brakes and 2 or 4 wheel drive.

not 100% sure about that, surely the electric motor needs new bushes and a regular check up???

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

3)hydrogen wont be ready as a mainstream solution until 2050 even by optimists. Why wait?

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

4) battery tech is improving like pc chip technology, charge times are coming down and efficency is going up.

and they still are not at acceptable levels... till they are this will always be the achilles heel of the electric motor.

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

5)an electric car will whip any petrol or diesel car off the line, check out GM EV1 vs porsche or ferrari on you tube.
[\quote]
but a porsche or a ferrai will whip the EV on a circuit... the EV1 corners like a whale...

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

6)most peoples car journeys are sub 50 miles daily, not everyone but most people, so a 250 mile range car would only need to be charged every 4-5 day's, hardly a big deal?

while that is true, and I am one of them, I travel less than 50 miles on 90% of my journeys, but what do I do on the 10% when I want to drive more than the range of the cars batteries????
stop pull in and charge my car over many many hours....

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

7) electricity a big problem for us were 90% plus fossil production so completely defeat's the purpose, right? Ok what if ye were a 100% green electric producing country? Then all electric cars is the way to go? How do we do this? www.spiritofireland.org could be the answer, use wind energy to pump sea water into hydro dams to store and produce clean electricity. We even have the capacity to export energy. I've on connection to above just support the idea.

there is no "what if's" we aren't a green energy producing country.... and thats a fact which makes crap of all the arguments for using green electric cars....

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

8) under these conditions what do people think now?

While I love the idea of electric cars, I do not think we are ready for mass acceptence of them.
The electric car meets can accomodate most of the people most of the time, but they need to accomodate all of the people all of the time just as good as petrol does to be a viable alternative...

put it this way , if you where in the market for a new family car.. like a focus....
would you be willing to buy a car that is three times the prices,
once filled up can only cover have the range of the petrol car and then takes a few hours to top up with energy....
this car also claims to be enviromentally freindly, but in the country you live it, it's not..... and lets not even get started on the damage the mining of the material used in batteries has had on the enviroment
running costs are less, a good deal less.... but no where near good enough to make up for the initial 3 times the price initial cost over a normal petrol car....

kodi · 17-07-2009 3:50pm

to towel401: it's 27F, 2.7V high performance (low internal resistance) ultracap. It can store roughly 98J of energy which is around 27mWh. Maybe not too much for the first sight

robtri:

not 100% sure about that, surely the electric motor needs new bushes and a regular check up???

what if I say that I know electric engine that has one million kilometers life and doesn't need any regular checkup, because it's self diagnostic and check's up itself like 500 times a second and currently it is produced and installed in one of the electric cars?

running costs are less, a good deal less.... but no where near good enough to make up for the initial 3 times the price initial cost over a normal petrol car...

The problem is - most car manufacturers are earning little to none on actual car sales. Major of the income is "authorized service station" scheme, mandatory checks and last but not least - parts. In EV there is nothing to do unless it will break, so you just cannot apply the same scheme.

and they still are not at acceptable levels... till they are this will always be the achilles heel of the electric motor

Current battery size to get a range of 500km can be about 100 liters in volume. Not much bigger than a fuel tank. Oh, did I mention that clutch, brakes, gear box can be scrapped for properly designed EV? It's like 200-300 kg?

but a porsche or a ferrai will whip the EV on a circuit... the EV1 corners like a whale...

because EV1 wasn't meant for circuit. Check the Wrightspeed X1 - it was.

I travel less than 50 miles on 90% of my journeys, but what do I do on the 10% when I want to drive more than the range of the cars batteries????
stop pull in and charge my car over many many hours....

Or stop, connect the charger, have cup of coffee and drive away? It all depends on charger. Battery is not a limit in this case.

there is no "what if's" we aren't a green energy producing country.... and thats a fact which makes crap of all the arguments for using green electric cars....

Check how much energy is going into the refining process from crude oil to petrol in your tank. When I was doing case study it occured than even modern coal-powered power plants are more "green" than cars on the road.

Oh, have you seen any city-centre polluting electric power-plant? No?

PS. I'm just trying to have this thread more active

Rowley Birkin QC · 17-07-2009 3:51pm

Eamon Ryan is on RTE 1 Radio talking about this and other things at the moment.

robtri · 17-07-2009 4:12pm

kodi wrote: »

to towel401: it's 27F, 2.7V high performance (low internal resistance) ultracap. It can store roughly 98J of energy which is around 27mWh. Maybe not too much for the first sight

robtri:

what if I say that I know electric engine that has one million kilometers life and doesn't need any regular checkup, because it's self diagnostic and check's up itself like 500 times a second and currently it is produced and installed in one of the electric cars?

The problem is - most car manufacturers are earning little to none on actual car sales. Major of the income is "authorized service station" scheme, mandatory checks and last but not least - parts. In EV there is nothing to do unless it will break, so you just cannot apply the same scheme.

Current battery size to get a range of 500km can be about 100 liters in volume. Not much bigger than a fuel tank. Oh, did I mention that clutch, brakes, gear box can be scrapped for properly designed EV? It's like 200-300 kg?

because EV1 wasn't meant for circuit. Check the Wrightspeed X1 - it was.

Or stop, connect the charger, have cup of coffee and drive away? It all depends on charger. Battery is not a limit in this case.

Check how much energy is going into the refining process from crude oil to petrol in your tank. When I was doing case study it occured than even modern coal-powered power plants are more "green" than cars on the road.

Oh, have you seen any city-centre polluting electric power-plant? No?

PS. I'm just trying to have this thread more active

I like Electric cars.. but am not convinced there is a viable alternative yet...

Can you tell me what currently available electric car has this 1million km engine ?
has a range of 500km and full charge in less than 15 mins( while I have my coffee)

I won't deny that modern coal plants are more green than cars... but they still aren't green or enviromentally safe...
and there are numerous coal fired plants around the world within cities limits...

biko · 17-07-2009 4:20pm

I saw the film "Who Killed the Electric Car?" a while back and the he later portion of the movie is organized around the following hypothesized culprits in the downfall of the electric car, with verdict of each suspect given at the end of the film:

Batteries
Limited range (60-70 miles) and reliability in the first EV-1s to ship, but better (110 - 160 miles) later. Research says the average driving distance of Americans in a day is 30 miles or less and that 90% of Americans could use electric cars in their daily commute. The film also showed that the company who had supplied batteries for EV-1 had been suppressed from announcing the improved batteries that can double the range of EV-1, and General Motors had sold the supplier's majority control share to an oil company. Towards the end of the film, an engineer explains that, as of the interview, lithium ion batteries, the same technology available in laptops, would have allowed the EV-1 to be upgraded to a range of 300 miles per charge.
Verdict: Not Guilty

Oil companies
Fearful of losing business to a competing technology, they supported efforts to kill the ZEV mandate. They also bought patents to prevent modern NiMH batteries from being used in US electric cars. The film also used the crash of oil prices in 1980s as an example of foreign governments and oil companies trying to keep customers from moving towards independence from oil.
Verdict: Guilty

More "suspects" in the film.

My own take is that electric cars are a viable option to petrol/diesel and has been for over 10 years, since the EV, but it needs the state to step in and put the infrastructure in place as well as subsidise cars.

Quite interesting film, it's free to watch on google video I think

kodi · 17-07-2009 5:08pm

robtri wrote: »

I like Electric cars.. but am not convinced there is a viable alternative yet...

Can you tell me what currently available electric car has this 1million km engine ?
has a range of 500km and full charge in less than 15 mins( while I have my coffee)

I won't deny that modern coal plants are more green than cars... but they still aren't green or enviromentally safe...
and there are numerous coal fired plants around the world within cities limits...

Lightning GT with extended battery pack that uses 4 PML Flightlink electric engines (currently Printed Motor Works). It's a sport car and costs arm and leg at this moment, but from what I saw in this car - it's the design I would vote for.

Mr Benevolent · 17-07-2009 5:28pm

No disrespect intended, but there's a lot of ignorance here about current (excuse the pun) battery technology. High efficiency electric motors don't have brushes any more. The newest breakthrough in charging is that a battery can be 90% charged in three minutes.250 miles on a charge is plenty in Dublin. My commute would be about 20 miles per weekday, maybe 60 miles at the weekend, plus another 15 miles for running to the shops. That totals about 175 miles, or a charge every 10 days without bothering about charging stations. I wouldn't be driving down the country so no long hops. Coupled with all that will be fierce acceleration, quattro-like grip and near-zero maintenance.

Eric Cartman · 17-07-2009 7:23pm

until theres an electric 4x4 thats big, can pull 2.5 tonnes and has the same/better acceleration and torque as a kia sorento/ pajero lwb - then no , but if that ever happens, i might consider electric,

ohh and most importantly, dont make it look like an electric/hybrid car, the thing i really hate about the prius : it looks like its a hybrid/electric-"the george regular" mobile

Ireland to go down the Electric car route?

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