EU rules publishers cannot stop you reselling your downloaded games

AlmightyCushion · 05-07-2012 2:41am

Varik wrote: »

You could gift it to an email you own and then later sell it on after the sale is over at a higher price but if it's redeemed for you to play then it's tied to your account

Oh I know that once you activate the key on an account it's tied to it but you could still take advantage of the cheap sales to make a profit so this law shouldn't affect those cheap sales.

I'm glad to see something like this come into place although I doubt I'll ever use it. I'm a bit of a hoarder and keep loads of crap I'll never use because I may need or use it some day. I doubt I'd ever get rid of a game in my collection unless it was completely shíte or I hated it and knew I would never play it. Even then I'd probably still keep it just in case.

CORaven · 05-07-2012 7:59am

After giving it some thought:
Could this be a deterrent for companies to do business with EU citizens? Could we end up seeing small indie game devs blocking their sites to us?
Does this extend to DLC and the console market as well?
And could this affect the Apple app store, giving customers the ability to resale apps they do not like?

I look forward to the implementation of the ruling, however I am interested in the above.

hooradiation · 05-07-2012 10:48am

Having asked someone who knows their arse from their elbow, legally speaking, I'm getting the feeling that this ruling means the square root of fuck all.

What I was told follows -

The key difference here is buying an oracle product supplies keys and a means by which to physically own said license.
The difference of sale vs service arises because of the simple fact that for most Steam purchases you are never given a key, nor do you ever have access to it, nor are you ever told you will gain access to it.

There is no way for you, as an individual, to sell a license you've technically never seen and cannot even get your hands on. This is where the difference is. It's legally a very distinct one, because without those keys and with no legal ruling to force them to make those keys available, you can't make any kind of attempt at a sale.

Also the oracle ruling doesn't even touch on things like account bound software. At that point the entire account is considered a single entity and all licenses beneath it could be handled as parts or as a whole. All that would have to be hashed out in court before you could rule whether Steam or Origin is a service, or a product.

Thats why this case matters so little. Because oracle software is a standalone thing. With a key you own. Which isn't bound to any overarching system. Kind of like Photoshop. But nothing like a Steam account.

Retr0gamer · 05-07-2012 11:29am

Maybe so but it's still something that could really strengthen the argument if one of these distribution services were ever brought to court over it.

I'm not sure how steam works and can't confirm it here but if there's a seperate license for each piece of software then really the difference between getting a key and accessing the software through steam in negligible, it's just different forms of DRM when it's really dealing with the right to sell on the license.

If software access is granted by a single steam license then it's different but still it's a strong argument for the right to sell your steam account and maybe even to sell seperate games.

Again it all needs to be proven in court anyway.

hooradiation · 05-07-2012 11:46am

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Maybe so but it's still something that could really strengthen the argument if one of these distribution services were ever brought to court over it.

If that happens, then maybe there'd be something worth talking about.
And how much it strengthens the argument is.... debatable.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I'm not sure how steam works and can't confirm it here but if there's a seperate license for each piece of software then really the difference between getting a key and accessing the software through steam in negligible, it's just different forms of DRM when it's really dealing with the right to sell on the license.

Your account is granted a license to that piece of software, and the license is bound to your account. You can't run the software legitimately without the game being able to query the client and check that the client is licensed.
But you never, ever access this license.
So, let's say you want to sell me one of your steam games - What are you going to sell to me? You can't sell something you can't access.

So, technically, yes you can sell your Steam games. Now figure out how to do it!
That's the kicker. And why would anyone bother to make a way to do so when the decision doesn't legally require them to?

Retr0gamer wrote: »

If software access is granted by a single steam license then it's different but still it's a strong argument for the right to sell your steam account and maybe even to sell seperate games.

Software access is granted by having a steam account AND the licenses that are bound to it. You can't have one without the other.
So someone would have to take valve to court in order for this to have any real affect. Hence why this is mostly meaningless.

Retr0gamer · 05-07-2012 11:56am

It's a strange one. As far as I'm aware if you haven't got access to the license, haven't seen the license and haven't agreed to it before using the software then the license agreement is null and void. Which in a way means Valve can just say, yes the license isn't legally binding, here's your money back and take the game away from you.

That's of course if there's even a need for a license in the first place. So I'm guessing the license agreement for steam works something more like netflixs where the license is only with steam and they grant you access to their content on their service when you pay for it.

TheGunns · 05-07-2012 12:17pm

If you look at the steam keys, the games you buy online dont get a key until they are downloaded and played. There is currently a situation with Sacred 2 on steam as they sold copies during a sale last year and now they have no more keys but not everyone has registered it so there are people who have bought the game but have no access to it. You also have access to your CD key somewhere on steam, cant remember where though.

This really isn't much for games on PC as I like the low prices compared to consoles and is one of the attractions. Think this would create a load of hassle I think and I don't see much benefit to it given the prices are pretty low now anyways. If the price of current games was to stay the same with the addition of the second hand sales then there cant be much opposition to it but the fear that it will up prices or go wrong are the only problems I could see with it. That said though those problems might not come to pass, so really it is a risk and we will just have to see if theyre ready to take it and how they will

Overheal · 05-07-2012 2:40pm

hooradiation wrote: »

The key difference here is buying an oracle product supplies keys and a means by which to physically own said license.
The difference of sale vs service arises because of the simple fact that for most Steam purchases you are never given a key, nor do you ever have access to it, nor are you ever told you will gain access to it.

There is no way for you, as an individual, to sell a license you've technically never seen and cannot even get your hands on.

any time you purchase a game on steam though and install it you're presented with the EULA... and to Retr0's point, you agree to it at that point in time.

Helix · 05-07-2012 3:34pm

all that'll happen is that you dont buy games on steam/xbla/etc any more, you just rent them, for a term of say 100 years

if you dont own them you cant sell them

Retr0gamer · 05-07-2012 3:35pm

Overheal wrote: »

any time you purchase a game on steam though and install it you're presented with the EULA... and to Retr0's point, you agree to it at that point in time.

If that's the case then I don't see why this ruling wouldn't apply to a service like steam.

Retr0gamer · 05-07-2012 3:40pm

Helix wrote: »

all that'll happen is that you dont buy games on steam/xbla/etc any more, you just rent them, for a term of say 100 years

if you dont own them you cant sell them

I'm all for increasing a consumers ownership over digital goods because frankly the abusive EULA's that publishers try to force on consumers are pretty not legally binding in Europe but I'm afraid something like this will come about and I really don't want a future where you don't own anything you've bought.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 05-07-2012 3:49pm

well you dont really own the dvds on your shelf either, yeah you can resell them but there are restrictions on where you can play them from what I remember. if you actually owned it you'd be well able to play it in a hospital or any other public setting without needing to get permission from the copyright holders.

Varik · 05-07-2012 3:53pm

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

well you dont really own the dvds on your shelf either, yeah you can resell them but there are restrictions on where you can play them from what I remember. if you actually owned it you'd be well able to play it in a hospital or any other public setting without needing to get permission from the copyright holders.

They are exception to that, it's mostly when money is involved that you need permission.

gizmo · 24-09-2012 11:58pm

Valve could face charges in Europe over Steam's user agreement

I wasn't really sure where to put this update since it technically relates more to Valve updating their ToS however, it's this bit...

On top of these charges, the Federation wants to ensure that Valve's new user agreement meets the requirements of a recent European court ruling that says that game publishers cannot block European customers from reselling downloadable game

that I believe will prove most interesting since it'll be the first official legal challenge on this matter to date, with respect to games at least.

ShadowHearth · 25-09-2012 8:18am

Things are about to get interesting.

Does origin gets some whiling too? Or only steam getting the worse of it?

I personally don't really care about it, because I won't be selling my games anyway, but I never though eu will pursue it

witnessmenow · 25-09-2012 8:21am

All Valve need to do to prevent this is to give people an in game item in one of their games exclusively reserved to for people who have not sold games (ala cheaters lament in TF2)

Straight away, a good chunk of people wouldnt do it :rolleyes:

Retr0gamer · 25-09-2012 10:29am

ShadowHearth wrote: »

I personally don't really care about it, because I won't be selling my games anyway, but I never though eu will pursue it

It's not the EU, it's a federation of consumer agencies. I'd say they are testing how tight this law is.

SeantheMan · 19-11-2012 1:41pm

Anyone know if there's been any update on this ?
It was huge news a few months ago, but has seemed to have died away since.

RoyalMarine · 19-11-2012 1:53pm

Not sure about Valve or other companies, but Blizzard seem to have taken a complete cold shoulder to this and ignored it.

I contacted them regarding selling my diablo 3 account and they refused to assist me and informed me it is not possible.

SeantheMan · 19-11-2012 2:49pm

RoyalMarine wrote: »

Not sure about Valve or other companies, but Blizzard seem to have taken a complete cold shoulder to this and ignored it.

I contacted them regarding selling my diablo 3 account and they refused to assist me and informed me it is not possible.

The latest I read was that Valve weren't going to change their policies or allow steam to do this until they were taken to court or some action which forces them into it.

Retr0gamer · 19-11-2012 3:04pm

Unless it is challenged in court they can do what they like.

ShadowHearth · 19-11-2012 3:22pm

thing is a doubt any valve user will be bothered though. it will cost more in lawsuit then whatever games are worth.

so i doubt we will see any changes. though i dont really care about it. i love my games and i plan on sticking with them.

SeantheMan · 19-11-2012 3:56pm

I'd happily give away half the games I own to people who would appreciate them more than myself.

ancapailldorcha · 20-11-2012 2:51pm

SeantheMan wrote: »

I'd happily give away half the games I own to people who would appreciate them more than myself.

That's my only real hangup with digital media. You can't give them to people when you're done to see what they think. For a lot of people, they'd be easily put off by a lot of things like Fantasy but when they get one for free it can open up brand new tastes for them.

SeantheMan · 21-11-2012 12:10am

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

That's my only real hangup with digital media. You can't give them to people when you're done to see what they think. For a lot of people, they'd be easily put off by a lot of things like Fantasy but when they get one for free it can open up brand new tastes for them.

I'm not even referring to games I've played.

I've easily 100 games, that have come in "bundles" or "packs" that I've never installed, never used the Serial/CDKey for and have no intention of doing so either.

You should be allowed to give these away if you've never attempted to install them on your account

ancapailldorcha · 21-11-2012 12:54am

I wonder if Steam'll try to take a cut of these sales though, or even if it'd be legal for them to do so.

EU rules publishers cannot stop you reselling your downloaded games

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