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Who would be called in?

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  • 08-03-2015 9:00pm
    #1
    true567
    Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭


    If something like the Australian or Paris terrorist attacks happened in Dublin, or anywhere in Ireland for that matter, who would be the forces deployed?

    I would assume it would be the Army Ranger Wing or does the Garda have a special force group for such matters? (i.e. the snipers providing support from a distance and the men entering the building)

    This question is not a result of such attacks but instead is a curious thought regarding our defense forces. So please don't derail the thread by discussing such groups.

    Also, perhaps it is just me but I would like more information regarding the Ranger Wing but cannot find the entry requirements regarding them? I was on the official website scrolling around but could not find a set list of requirements, so if anyone can better direct me that would be appreciated.

    Thanks.


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    #2
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    In the Sydney case I would see it as an garda eru deployment just like the nsw police carried out that one.

    Same in Paris


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    #3
    Alkers
    Registered Users Posts: 6,815 ✭✭✭Alkers


    I would think that if anyone was to storm any buildings it would be the rangers in place of the ERU


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    #4
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    Simona1986 wrote: »
    I would think that if anyone was to storm any buildings it would be the rangers in place of the ERU

    Why ? It's a police matter. The military is an aid to the civil power. Hence the gardai would have to ask the Rangers. Chances are they might not.


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    #5
    Alkers
    Registered Users Posts: 6,815 ✭✭✭Alkers


    Zambia wrote: »
    Why ? It's a police matter. The military is an aid to the civil power. Hence the gardai would have to ask the Rangers. Chances are they might not.

    It's just an opinion - in such a high-profile incident I would think that they would want the best guys on the job and I'd have thought the Rangers are more-advanced than the ERU? I know they do train together etc.

    OP: I don't think you'll find much more than what is on the defence forces page, to apply you need to be in the PDF.


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    #6
    true567
    Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭true567


    I appreciate the dialogue, I suppose its better we don't know the answer. I respect the secretiveness of the defense forces as on their page there is limited information, among other attributes of course.

    I just wanted to know after watching both those sieges, because I know there are those in Ireland training hard- and I am also interested in possibly going out for the Ranger Wing- not saying I'd make it, not at all. But its truly an honorable way to make a living. Cheers


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    #7
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Zambia wrote: »
    Why ? It's a police matter. The military is an aid to the civil power. Hence the gardai would have to ask the Rangers. Chances are they might not.

    'Hire a thief to catch a thief'

    Why use cops to go after militiamen/terrorists possibly armed to the teeth with military spec weapons & training (and possibly combat experience)?.


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    #8
    CharlieCroker
    Registered Users Posts: 8,451 ✭✭✭CharlieCroker


    Kori Aggressive Wristband wrote: »
    'Hire a thief to catch a thief'

    Why use cops to go after militiamen/terrorists possibly armed to the teeth with military spec weapons & training (and possibly combat experience)?.

    The ERU aren't going in with a big stick and pepper spray, they're as well armed and trained as any other comparable special operations unit.


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    #9
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    Kori Aggressive Wristband wrote: »
    'Hire a thief to catch a thief'

    Why use cops to go after militiamen/terrorists possibly armed to the teeth with military spec weapons & training (and possibly combat experience)?.

    With respect the weaponry of the ERU would be on par with a lot of sf units. The Sydney seige was one deranged eejit with a shotgun. While he was a fanatic he was by no means a seasoned terrorist.

    Now a siege with a shotgun is the bread and butter of the garda armed units. Sieges occur quite regularly and dissipate as the police tend to know how they pan out.

    The Paris attack on the Charlie hebdo office was not a siege, the responding general duties units would never have suspected the force they encountered. However from that piont on the French police looked very formidable. The supermarket siege afterwards was also a police matter.

    In all cases I don't think the military could guarantee no loss of life.

    While both options get the job done within ireland should be seen as the Gardai's patch.


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    #10
    donvito99
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    It would be up to AGS to delegate to the DF and the Ranger Wing. They'd most likely be called upon in cases where the ERU are absolutely stretched in manpower and resources.


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    #11
    roundymac
    Registered Users Posts: 2,712 ✭✭✭roundymac


    For fecks sake Joan Burton was trapped in her car and the Gardai could do nothing about it.dealing with terrorists the ARW are the only people capable of dealing with. The seige at Abbylara was another Garda f**k up.


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    #12
    cppilot98
    Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭cppilot98


    You can be quite sure or at least I would hope it's sure that various scenarios have been rehearsed and considered.

    It's fairly certain that the ARW would come into play in the event of an obvious terrorist incident. They train for that scenario and in all probability have some experience already.

    I very much doubt the ERU are on a par with any SF unit let alone the ARW. Which isn't to denigrate their expertise. But they're police at the end of the day and with due respect not the equivalent of the CIGN or GSG9.

    It's also likely international expertise would be called on in the event of a non domestic terrorist incident like a hijacking or an embassy siege.


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    #13
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    cppilot98 wrote: »
    You can be quite sure or at least I would hope it's sure that various scenarios have been rehearsed and considered.

    It's fairly certain that the ARW would come into play in the event of an obvious terrorist incident. They train for that scenario and in all probability have some experience already.

    I very much doubt the ERU are on a par with any SF unit let alone the ARW. Which isn't to denigrate their expertise. But they're police at the end of the day and with due respect not the equivalent of the CIGN or GSG9.

    It's also likely international expertise would be called on in the event of a non domestic terrorist incident like a hijacking or an embassy siege.

    Whats an obvious terrorist incident?

    If you have one IS bandana wearing bloke with a knife and 1 hostage a terrorist incident?

    Remember both the OP's examples were both handled by the countries/states police forces.


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    #14
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Am I correct in thinking the the ERU train regularly with the Met's SO19? If so, I would have thought they would be trained in anti terrorist operations.


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    #15
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,630 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    cppilot98 wrote: »
    You can be quite sure or at least I would hope it's sure that various scenarios have been rehearsed and considered.

    It's fairly certain that the ARW would come into play in the event of an obvious terrorist incident. They train for that scenario and in all probability have some experience already.

    I very much doubt the ERU are on a par with any SF unit let alone the ARW. Which isn't to denigrate their expertise. But they're police at the end of the day and with due respect not the equivalent of the CIGN or GSG9.

    It's also likely international expertise would be called on in the event of a non domestic terrorist incident like a hijacking or an embassy siege.
    GSG9 are a police unit though right? KSK is the army SF unit. Also the premier anti-terrorist unit in Austria is part of the police, EKO Cobra.


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    #16
    cppilot98
    Registered Users Posts: 51 ✭✭cppilot98


    Zambia wrote: »
    Whats an obvious terrorist incident?
    Slightly surprised you don't understand the difference. But clearly it's an incident involving an individual group from an illegal para military organisation or other group with a political agenda as opposed to a mentally ill or drunk man waving a shotgun out the window of a cottage or someone attempting to rob a post office.

    Ok?
    riffmongous wrote: »
    GSG9 are a police unit though right? KSK is the army SF unit. Also the premier anti-terrorist unit in Austria is part of the police, EKO Cobra.
    GIGN is military, GSG9 are police too but essentially recruited from an armed para military force. Neither are directly comparable to the ERU which recruits from an unarmed police force.

    Not sure why it seems to bother you that there might be a role for ARW in certain scenarios. The ERU work with the ARW and it's no secret that the ARW have a role in counter terrorism. The defence forces Facebook page was recently highlighting an exercise involving ARW boarding a ferry at sea. The also practice other hostage situation involving aircraft and buildings. They do have a domestic role but obviously not involving watching bank robbers or drug dealers.


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    #17
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    cppilot98 wrote: »
    Slightly surprised you don't understand the difference. But clearly it's an incident involving an individual group from an illegal para military organisation or other group with a political agenda as opposed to a mentally ill or drunk man waving a shotgun out the window of a cottage or someone attempting to rob a post office.

    So your saying as soon as someone shouts something political the Garda should hand everything over to the Army?

    No not ok.
    cppilot98 wrote: »
    GIGN is military, GSG9 are police too but essentially recruited from an armed para military force. Neither are directly comparable to the ERU which recruits from an unarmed police force.

    What how much time do you think a European Police force spends on the range? The fact they are routinely armed does not equate to them all being crack shots.


    cppilot98 wrote: »
    Not sure why it seems to bother you that there might be a role for ARW in certain scenarios. The ERU work with the ARW and it's no secret that the ARW have a role in counter terrorism. The defence forces Facebook page was recently highlighting an exercise involving ARW boarding a ferry at sea. The also practice other hostage situation involving aircraft and buildings. They do have a domestic role but obviously not involving watching bank robbers or drug dealers.

    I don't dispute they can be called in but the days are fast declining that they will be. The fact of the matter is Drug Gangs are now far more likely to be involved in police shootouts than terrorists in Ireland.

    The Garda do have the men, weapons and training to handle any foreseeable siege type event on the mainland of Ireland. If they dont well then they should be brought up to speed quickly.

    garda-emergency-response-unit.jpg


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    #18
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users Posts: 81,382 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    They would simply wait until the time the hostage takers said their daily prayers and then hit the place, simple, it's their one idiotic weakness with all their fancy planning and equipment.


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    #19
    evo2000
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭evo2000


    Call in the army rangers because it would be soooo much coooler send em in 300 style phalanx and all just for added badassness, also im going to be a ranger because rangers are cool go rangers....

    all piss taking aside tho of course the ERU would be able to handle a situation like that and be just aswell armed as the rangers if not better for such a scenario, there wouldnt be much point in the ERU if they couldnt manage situations like that.


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    #20
    qt3.14
    Registered Users Posts: 262 ✭✭qt3.14


    I've no particular basis for the opinion but I wouldn't expect to see the armed forces called into a single continuing situation like Paris or Sydney. If there was a sustained assault on the state ie multiple attacks over time I could see the ERU getting overstretched and then the nod given.


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    #21
    knucklehead6
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭knucklehead6


    cppilot98 wrote: »

    It's also likely international expertise would be called on in the event of a non domestic terrorist incident like a hijacking or an embassy siege.

    Are you for real with this one???

    I know we depend on the RAF to defend our skies (an argument for another thread) but i don't see any possible reason for any "international involvement" in an incident that happens in Ireland.

    The ARW are fairly highly regarded internationally.


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    #22
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 9,995 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    I'd be pretty surprised if it was actually a police unit that responded to the siege in Sydney.


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    #23
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    It was the NSW police tactical operations group.


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    #24
    imperator567
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34 ✭imperator567


    Outdated drill in the pic, these days a snake formation is used (learned the hard way in Afghanistan) and point man has an anti ballistic shield.

    They have no experience of dealing with suicide bombers, especially at multiple entry/exit points.

    Nor equipment that Special Forces anti terrorism units use like Wall Breaching Cannon/Harvey wallbangers.

    In any significant terrorist incident the Wing would be called in.

    In any complex and extended incident, UK SF who they now train with would support with logistics and expertise.


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    #25
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    imperator567 wrote: »
    Outdated drill in the pic, these days a snake formation is used (learned the hard way in Afghanistan) and point man has an anti ballistic shield.

    They have no experience of dealing with suicide bombers, especially at multiple entry/exit points.

    Nor equipment that Special Forces anti terrorism units use like Wall Breaching Cannon/Harvey wallbangers.

    In any significant terrorist incident the Wing would be called in.

    In any complex and extended incident, UK SF who they now train with would support with logistics and expertise.

    describe a significant terrorist threat?


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    #26
    imperator567
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34 ✭imperator567


    Zambia wrote: »
    describe a significant terrorist threat?


    A well armed and significant number of terrorists in a complex ongoing operation, could be a cinema, theater, school and more then one location.

    Highly unlikely but possible.


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    #27
    imperator567
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34 ✭imperator567


    Also multiple terrorists armed with heavy machine guns, RPGs, grenades etc.

    The ERU are not trained for such scenarios.


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    #28
    imperator567
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34 ✭imperator567


    Apologies, its not letting me edit, poison gas, chemical, biological weapons etc.


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    #29
    evo2000
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭evo2000


    imperator567 wrote: »
    Apologies, its not letting me edit, poison gas, chemical, biological weapons etc.

    All highly highly unlikely, its safe to say unless of the rarest of circumstances the arw would never be called in.

    There was an incident near where i live where grenades were being used and it was the ERU that was called in also.


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    #30
    imperator567
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34 ✭imperator567


    evo2000 wrote: »
    All highly highly unlikely, its safe to say unless of the rarest of circumstances the arw would never be called in.

    There was an incident near where i live where grenades were being used and it was the ERU that was called in also.


    Hijacking of a ferry or airplane is another, the Wing rappelled onto a ferry only a couple of years ago.

    Its on you tube, excellent drills.


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    #31
    Zambia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    imperator567 wrote: »
    Also multiple terrorists armed with heavy machine guns, RPGs, grenades etc.

    The ERU are not trained for such scenarios.

    Not quite what we are talking about but in the case above chances are the military would be summoned.

    But I stress it's highly unlikely to occur.


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