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New Commercial Tax Issue

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  • 25-05-2012 11:29am
    #1
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Well, how's about this?
    I bought a used Pajero from a dealer. It was a passenger jeep and the dealer converted it to a commercial when I paid the deposit.
    It flew through the DOE and the cert was issued.
    I had the machine weighed and filled in all the necessary paperwork.
    So off I went to the tax office with my bundle of papers and the credit card.

    I was not a happy camper when the girl behind the counter told me that there is now an additional requirement.
    The new requirement is that when a vehicle has been converted from private to commercial, a certificate has to be obtained stating that the conversion complies with certain standards.
    There might be a certain amount of sense in such a test, if the jeep was being converted from commercial to private, because there might be safety considerations with installing seats - but taking seats out - come on!
    The certification has to be carried out by 'suitably qualified persons'.
    I've heard that these 'suitably qualified persons' are charging €200 for the test.
    The test also includes a CO2 evaluation - since when was CO2 part of the commercial tax system?

    I think this is the relevant bill but I could see no reference to the new test.
    http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/bills28/bills/2012/2512/b2512s.pdf
    In fact I can't find any reference to this new requirement, apart from the handouts given to me in the local authority tax office :confused:

    Is this not ridiculous duplication?
    Surely if the DOE cert is issued, that is a statement that the conversion has been carried out properly?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,884 ✭✭✭101sean


    This was raised in the Defender thread, someone there had to get a report done by an assessor which is sent to Shannon who will issue a cert to say it's OK to issue commercial tax. You then go with this to the tax office who will look at it all over again and maybe issue the tax disc!

    From the Defender thread by Clocke08
    now, down to what you need as regards paperwork:

    A 'Vehicle Owner's Declaration of Conversion' must be filled out by the owner, this consists of a form where you basically say what category the vehicle used to be and what it is now, and an engineers report, this is a form that a suitably qualified individual (looks like claims assessors are the only ones who do this) inspects the work, makes sure it checks out then signs off on the work (hopefully ).

    You then send this information to revenue, who in turn send you back a certificate saying all's good, you bring this to the tax office and they change it to commercial for you once there inspector has rechecked the work...


    then you need to tax it, which includes getting this: http://www.wexford.ie/wex/Department...le,5705,en.pdf

    stamped by the fuzz.

    Then your done!!


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    101sean wrote: »
    This was raised in the Defender thread, someone there had to get a report done by an assessor which is sent to Shannon who will issue a cert to say it's OK to issue commercial tax. You then go with this to the tax office who will look at it all over again and maybe issue the tax disc!

    From the Defender thread by Clocke08
    Most humble apologies, I didn't see that thread.:o

    For the life of me, I don't see why the assessment carried out under the DOE is insufficient. Why on earth is a second assessment required?
    A guy came out from the tax office to inspect the vehicle (3rd inspection) - he said it was grand. Off the record, he said it's causing the local authority all sorts of bother - he wanted to say more, but probably felt he shouldn't.
    Apparently, it's all to do with closing some loophole in VRT.

    Ah well, got that off my chest, for the time being.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,884 ✭✭✭101sean


    No matter, there's some stuff in the Defender thread that's relevant to everyone, not just endless repair stories!

    It does sound like they are making it harder to commercialise vehicles because of loss of revenue and too many taking the mickey in the past.

    One lad over on 4xforum changed the body of his already commercial 110 hard top to a high capacity pickup which is basically a nut and bolt job and had to produce a similar report.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,382 ✭✭✭Fishtits


    Changing from a passenger vehicle to a commercial should not be painful. They've already got their pound of flesh, so to speak.
    looks like claims assessors are the only ones who do this

    A claims assessor may not be a motor engineer.

    ie, many "Claims Assessors" are pointy toed, shiny arsed, insurance company trained commision based screw you for all they can types. I know, I've met them.

    Someone needs to give the Insurance Industry a good f**king over IMHO.

    Fishtits, (Automotive Engineer since 1992)

    Yes, occaisionaly you get old farts on this site...


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Here's the relevant info.
    Post Registration Conversions (including those registered in another jurisdiction).

    In situations where it is not possible to obtain national type approval for a vehicle conversion, that conversion must be declared at registration by the vehicle owner using form VRTCONV. This form should be used in cases where the following vehicle characteristics have changed
    • the EU vehicle category
    • the number of seats
    • the number of seatbelt fittings
    • the EU Bodyworks
    • the mass in service
    • the number of doors
    • the number of windows
    In order to have a previously registered, converted vehicle registered, the vehicle must be certified by a Suitably Qualified Individual (SQI) as to the quality of the conversion and the accuracy of the declaration. The owner declaration on form VRTCONV stamped by the SQI and an accompanying declaration by the SQI on headed paper must accompany the vehicle (in addition to the normal paperwork) when presented for a pre-registration examination.
    However, where the conversion has taken place after the vehicle was registered in the State, i.e. the vehicle has an Irish registration number the declaration should be posted to The Revenue Commissioners, Central Vehicle Office, Rosslare Harbour, Co. Wexford where the conversion will be assessed to determine if additional VRT is due.
    To be deemed a motor caravan for vehicle registration purposes, a vehicle must be a special purpose EU Category M1, M2 or M3 vehicle with a bodytype SA and must be constructed to include living accommodation which contains at least the following equipment:
    • seats and table,
    • sleeping accommodation which may be converted from the seats,
    • cooking facilities, and
    • storage facilities,
    which must, (with the exception of the table which may be designed to be easily removable) be rigidly fixed to the living compartment.
    The conversion must be certified by a Suitably Qualified Individual (SQI).

    SQIs must have:-
    • an Engineering/Technical Qualification (Level 7 or higher accredited courses [1]) or appropriate accreditation with Engineers Ireland [2] or the Institute of Automotive Engineer Assessors [3]
    • a minimum of 5 years experience of working in a suitable technical environment (preferably Automotive or Engineering Environment)
    • access to adequate facilities to carry out a thorough vehicle examination, and
    • appropriate professional indemnity insurance,
    or
    be a National Standards Authority of Ireland approved facilities, (Approved Test Centres); or a Suitably Qualified Individual (SQI). A list of the Approved Test Centresicon_externallink.gif.
    Contact details for SQI's may be available in your local business directory or you can contact one of the professional associations such as the Institute of Automotive Engineer Assessorsicon_externallink.gif. The Society of the Irish Motor Industry (SIMI)icon_externallink.gif or 01- 6761690 may also be able to help if you are having difficulties finding an SQI.
    1. See Engineers Ireland, Accredited Courses
    2. Chartered or Associate Engineer
    3. Member or Incorporated Member.
    Revised: May 2012
    Back to Top
    http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/vrt-guide.html


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Here's where I am at the moment.
    The new 'conversion test' can only be carried out by a suitably qualified individual (SQI).
    The cert that I had done by the dealer was rejected and returned with a cover note stating that the dealer was not a suitably qualified individual, even though he fulfilled most of the criteria laid out in their memo.

    Fair enough.

    So I rang the Central Vehicle Office (CVO) - which I eventually found was the office dealing with the issue, and managed to contact someone after umpteen referrals from Shannon to Rosslare, via Roscommon and Westport.
    (The CVO is part of Revenue, by the way.)

    I asked where would I find an approved test centre (ATC).
    He refused to tell me, saying that they were not in the business of advertising test centres.
    Good God, they ask you to comply with new regulations, and then they refuse to tell you where you need to go to comply.

    Apparently, DOE test centres are not approved to do the new test.
    It's a select few which all seem to be private businesses.
    There are ATCs in
    Dublin (5)
    Galway (2)
    Roscommon
    Kerry
    Kilkenny
    Cork
    Meath
    Clare
    Westmeath
    Sligo
    Longford
    (see here for a full list)

    That leaves 15 counties without ATCs.
    Travelling to another county to get the new test done is one hell of an extra burden to put on genuine people.


    Eventually I found a test centre in Dublin. Yet another day wasted.
    The fee for the test is €125. <EDIT: + VAT = €141.85>
    And that's on top of the DOE.

    So there you go, if you are converting a private jeep to a commercial be prepared to jump through many hoops, spend loads of time visiting different offices, and fork out plenty of money.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,884 ✭✭✭101sean


    They make everything so difficult here if you want to do something different.

    If you don't mind I'd like to post this info over on 4xForum where others are doing something similar.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    101sean wrote: »
    They make everything so difficult here if you want to do something different.

    If you don't mind I'd like to post this info over on 4xForum where others are doing something similar.
    By all means.:)


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Just back from having the 'Conversion Declaration Test' done.
    And what did it consist of?
    Opening the bonnet to check the chassis number.
    Checking that the holes from the seats had been filled, and filling in the form.

    The cost - €141.85 - almost twice the price of the DOE.


    Go figure :confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 641 ✭✭✭kilianmanning


    slowburner wrote: »
    Just back from having the 'Conversion Declaration Test' done.
    And what did it consist of?
    Opening the bonnet to check the chassis number.
    Checking that the holes from the seats had been filled, and filling in the form.

    The cost - €141.85 - almost twice the price of the DOE.


    Go figure :confused:
    Definitely money racket.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,376 ✭✭✭O.A.P


    It smells a bit like jobs for the boys, but I could be wrong its happened before.
    I'm sure there is a very good reason to make you [pay money) jump through some hoops (pay money) and fill in a page ( pay money) jump some more hoops (pay money).
    When you have got that far they know he/she wants that veichle so lets get all we can off him/her.
    I have a passion for cars but no money to fuel it . I have not met anyone with a passion for tax.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    This same issue came up in Motorhomes & Campervans
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71298704


  • Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭tony.aspergers


    Hang on though.......don't these rules only apply to vehicles originally registered prior to 01/01/2011, after which all vehicles must be brought into the country directly from manufacturers as either Commercial or Passenger format and cannot be subsequently altered or changed in any way?


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Hang on though.......don't these rules only apply to vehicles originally registered prior to 01/01/2011, after which all vehicles must be brought into the country directly from manufacturers as either Commercial or Passenger format and cannot be subsequently altered or changed in any way?

    the classification is only for VRT.

    eg. a range rover brought in will always attract the full 36% passenger VRT because its not an N1 vehicle, after VRT you can convert to commercial for tax reasons but that must be inspected.


  • Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭tony.aspergers


    the classification is only for VRT.

    eg. a range rover brought in will always attract the full 36% passenger VRT because its not an N1 vehicle, after VRT you can convert to commercial for tax reasons but that must be inspected.

    According to Jaguar Land Rover Ireland, conversions from passenger to commercial cannot now happen to vehicles registered after 01/01/2011.... If you convert a vehicle it will remain as an M1 class and you will pay the full road tax.....?

    Certainly all Discovery 4 Commercials and 5 seaters are coming in directly from the manufacturer instead of being converted at Rosslare by NVD like they used to be for many years previously....


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,282 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    According to Jaguar Land Rover Ireland, conversions from passenger to commercial cannot now happen to vehicles registered after 01/01/2011.... If you convert a vehicle it will remain as an M1 class and you will pay the full road tax.....?

    Certainly all Discovery 4 Commercials and 5 seaters are coming in directly from the manufacturer instead of being converted at Rosslare by NVD like they used to be for many years previously....

    i hope they're wrong lad. If not then damn , it was good while it lasted


  • Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭tony.aspergers


    i hope they're wrong lad. If not then damn , it was good while it lasted

    Trust me, I know a thing or two about Land Rover Discovery's...... :)

    The current 5 seat Discovery 4 is in fact classed as an N1 commercial vehicle, but it doesn't attract commercial tax, instead it attracts the old engine size tax rate, which although more than the 2012 Discovery HSE to tax, it is significantly cheaper to buy in the first place by over €20,000. But the options list is limited to metallic paint and uprated audio and that is it....

    By the way the 2012 Discovery (for the Republic of Ireland) has the TDV6 engine as opposed to the SDV6, it falls into the 32% category for the HSE and road tax of around €1,200.... over a grand less than the SDV6 would attract!


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    A poster sent me a PM asking if I could write out the steps involved in converting a 4 x 4 from private to commercial.
    I thought it might be helpful for anyone thinking about doing this, to see the process, Please feel free to add in details/correct as necessary (this is written from memory and I might have missed something).

    1. Remove back seats + belts etc.

    2. Get the DOE test done (cost €80 approx.)

    3. Get the vehicle weighed at an official weighbridge, and a weigh docket.

    4. Bring the vehicle to an approved test centre. I don't know what the nature of this test is, but they are the only ones who can fill out the required form.
    Have a look here to find the nearest one to you.
    http://www.nsai.ie/Our-Services/Cert...t-Centers.aspx
    (Cost €141 approx)

    5. The cert you get from the approved testers then needs to be sent to the Revenue Commissioners in Rosslare

    6. When you get the cert back from Revenue you need to bring it to your local motor tax office together with the following documents:

    a) DOE cert

    b) Weighbridge docket

    c) Certificate of tax clearance, a letter from your employer, or a herd number (I don't know about the farming side of this) - whichever applies to your work.

    d) You'll also need the change of ownership form, if you've just bought the vehicle.

    e) Application form for road tax for the next six months + the money for that.

    f) A form from, and signed by the Gardaí stating that the vehicle is for work use only. (Goods only Declaration form).

    8. An officer from the tax office may also ask to inspect the vehicle.

    So the costs are:
    €80 + €140 + Road tax

    And make sure to get it all done as quickly as possible - the tax office will still charge arrears from the date of transfer of ownership.

    PS when posting things to State bodies, you usually don't need to pay the postage - just write 'FREEPOST' followed by the address.


  • Registered Users Posts: 788 ✭✭✭650gs


    Must be weighed before DOE as they need to know this for the cert.
    As for the new cert this is a compleat scam by our goverment again I converted mine last week got the doe done went to the tax office to be told I needed it tested again so went back to the doe center the same guy came out said ah yes I did that last week went in stamped the form and charged me 120 euro.
    Now if thats not a scam I give up:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭WestWicklow1


    I notice that the links to the list of approved centres in this thread don't work anymore. Here's the up to date one....

    http://www.nsai.ie/Our-Services/Certification/Automotive-Certification/Type-Approval/Approved-Test-Centers.aspx


  • Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭TPM


    slowburner wrote: »
    A poster sent me a PM asking if I could write out the steps involved in converting a 4 x 4 from private to commercial.
    I thought it might be helpful for anyone thinking about doing this, to see the process, Please feel free to add in details/correct as necessary (this is written from memory and I might have missed something).

    1)when you remove the rear seats and seat belts the mounting points are suppose to be welded up so the seats and belts can not be refitted
    6.c) I think you need a vat number, tax number or something from the revenue comissiomer to prove you have a business, I am not sure if a letter from your employer is acceptable anymore


  • Registered Users Posts: 942 ✭✭✭gofaster_s13


    The declaration of vehicle conversion does not have to be done in an ATC (approved test centre) it can be done by any Suitably qualified individual(SQI) the ATC's are expensive for this test because the annual licensing from NSAI required to be appointed as an ATC is expensive and also the required professional indemnity insurance required is expensive. The SQI's(usually insurance assessors or automotive engineer's) are around the same price for the inspection as they too have large P.I. insurance premiums and generally they have also put themselves through at least two years of (expensive) night courses on top of the 4 years to gain their trade qualifications to gain the required engineering qualifications. The number of these conversions that are being done is low so simple maths will tell you that the pricing is reflected in this. I myself charge €120 for the declaration which includes a report for the owner to keep.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33 dsgking


    that is some hassle for road tax


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    I myself charge €120 for the declaration which includes a report for the owner to keep.
    Can you tell us what the test consists of?


  • Registered Users Posts: 942 ✭✭✭gofaster_s13


    slowburner wrote: »
    Can you tell us what the test consists of?

    It's not a test as such, its a post conversion visual inspection to ensure the vehicle meets the commercial vehicle criteria.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭WestWicklow1


    Vehicle Owner’s Declaration of Conversion form.

    http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/forms/vehicle-conversion-declaration.pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭WestWicklow1


    The declaration of vehicle conversion does not have to be done in an ATC (approved test centre) it can be done by any Suitably qualified individual(SQI) the ATC's are expensive for this test because the annual licensing from NSAI required to be appointed as an ATC is expensive and also the required professional indemnity insurance required is expensive. The SQI's(usually insurance assessors or automotive engineer's) are around the same price for the inspection as they too have large P.I. insurance premiums and generally they have also put themselves through at least two years of (expensive) night courses on top of the 4 years to gain their trade qualifications to gain the required engineering qualifications. The number of these conversions that are being done is low so simple maths will tell you that the pricing is reflected in this. I myself charge €120 for the declaration which includes a report for the owner to keep.

    Personally I think it's the ROI (Rip Off Ireland). I recently paid €150.00 for this visual inspection. The inspector earned €15.00 per minute (the receipt I got didn't include vat) for the ten minutes it took him to inspect the vehicle and fill out the forms. I mean that. It took ten minutes to complete everything.

    Maybe he/you have large insurance premia and maybe he/you did complete expensive night courses and put in four years to gain qualifications but not specifically so he/you can do these inspections.

    Nothing justifies this charge for the length of time it takes to complete.


  • Registered Users Posts: 697 ✭✭✭Theanswers


    The whole inspection by an engineer is stupid and pointless.

    I possibly might understand if you were changing from commercial to private I.e. putting in seats, however only if you were not using original manufacturer threads and bolt holes if you are then i dont see why it needs to be inspected. It doesnt take an engineering degree to tighten a bolt. If you tighten it then it's safe.

    Like wise when removing seats there is no issue regarding safety. How can there be?

    Another stupid thing which only has to be undertaken in Ireland.
    I.e. Ripping perfectly good seats out of cars to make them affordable.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,546 ✭✭✭✭Poor Uncle Tom


    I converted mine last week and these were the steps I took on the guidance of a lady in the motor tax office:

    1. Remove back seats + belts.

    2. Get the vehicle weighed, and a weigh docket.

    3. Get the DOE test done.

    Go to the motor tax office with:

    a) DOE cert.

    b) Weighbridge docket.

    c) Application form for road tax including the change.

    d) The fee for the tax (€339 in my case for 12 months).

    e) A form from, and signed by the Gardaí stating that the vehicle is for work use only. (Goods only Declaration form).

    She even wished me well.....:)


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