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Right Wing Ireland

135

Comments

  • #62
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    HavingCrack wrote: »
    Not all Libertarians are in favour of totally abolishing the welfare system. Left and Right Libertarians differ on it slightly.

    When I refer to socially left it generally doesn't involve welfare as social welfare is an economic policy not a social one, it refers to supporting abortion, gay rights, drug legalisation etc..
    I'm a libertarian that does not favour abolishing the social welfare system.

    I also believe that in some cases, government (read: state) ownership of electricity production is ok. But dividends ought to go back to the stockholders (read: the sovereign) as it does in Norway.


  • #63
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    *Narrows eyes*

    A terrible reckoning is at hand.


  • #64
    McDougal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭McDougal


    Why is this libertarian nonsense tolerated on this forum when no one in the real world would give it the time of day? There are no organised libertarians in Ireland only a few deluded kids online.


  • #65
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    They're entitled to talk shite the same as the rest of us.


  • #66
    topper75
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    McDougal wrote: »
    Why is this libertarian nonsense tolerated on this forum when no one in the real world would give it the time of day? There are no organised libertarians in Ireland only a few deluded kids online.

    Questioning our right to air our rational arguments is only serving to highlight the weakness of the socialist cause. Look up the word 'forum'.

    I'm into freedom me!


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  • #67
    McDougal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭McDougal


    Nodin wrote: »
    They're entitled to talk shite the same as the rest of us.

    Well yes but why is there so much libertarian crap online and no movement publicly? The only answer is that libertarianism is for rich kid spotty nerds who grow out of it.


  • #68
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    OisinT wrote: »
    I'm a libertarian that does not favour abolishing the social welfare system.
    You aren't really a libertarian then, the ideal of social darwinism and the Nietzschean superman espoused by that creed from top to bottom is diametrically opposed to the very notion of social welfare. Its a belief system where mercy is dispensed by the strong to the weak as the whim takes them. Most people want to see a reduction in corruption and wastage in government, something libertarians will tell you they support also (for starters, its the rest you don't hear about), but the underlying reasoning is where things get wobbly.


  • #69
    McDougal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭McDougal


    topper75 wrote: »
    Questioning our right to air our rational arguments is only serving to highlight the weakness of the socialist cause. Look up the word 'forum'.

    I'm into freedom me!

    I wouldn't say I'm questioning your right to have a ridiculous analysis of the state but rather giving reasons for why your ideas will never take a hold in Ireland.

    And libertarians have a funny idea of freedom. You can be poor, starving, unemployed, homeless and without access to healthcare or welfare but the libertarian will call that freedom.


  • #70
    HavingCrack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭HavingCrack


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    I see.

    That's just a childish answer to be honest. You can pretend that the welfare state is a social issue when at the end of the day its really an economic one.
    McDougal wrote: »
    Why is this libertarian nonsense tolerated on this forum when no one in the real world would give it the time of day? There are no organised libertarians in Ireland only a few deluded kids online.

    Ah yes the old socialist/conservative/insert whatever response to any form of speech that you disagree with, shut it down. I'm a believer in the right to express my opinion I am.
    McDougal wrote: »
    Well yes but why is there so much libertarian crap online and no movement publicly? The only answer is that libertarianism is for rich kid spotty nerds who grow out of it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_libertarian_political_parties

    There's plenty of Libertarian parties and organisations active in the world, granted it's wikipedia but its handy just for summing some of them up. The American Libertarian party has nearly 250,000 members for example. In Ireland the P.D's were 'libertarian' to an extent economically if not so much socially.

    There are attempts to set up an Irish Libertarian party ongoing but setting up a new political party capable of overthrowing the Fianna Fail/Fine Gael/Labour triumvirate is nearly impossible, all you have to do is look at the amount of failed political parties littering the scene since the 1920's.

    And come on, "rich kid spotty nerds", that's bordering on personal abuse.


  • #71
    HavingCrack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭HavingCrack


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    You aren't really a libertarian then, the ideal of social darwinism and the Nietzschean superman espoused by that creed from top to bottom is diametrically opposed to the very notion of social welfare. Its a belief system where mercy is dispensed by the strong to the weak as the whim takes them. Most people want to see a reduction in corruption and wastage in government, something libertarians will tell you they support also (for starters, its the rest you don't hear about), but the underlying reasoning is where things get wobbly.

    That's pure anarchism that you're describing, not libertarianism. You seem to be confusing the two.

    Anyway, we're drifiting off topic from the Op, there's plenty of threads discussing the merits of libertarianism.


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  • #72
    McDougal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭McDougal


    HavingCrack wrote: »
    That's just a childish answer to be honest. You can pretend that the welfare state is a social issue when at the end of the day its really an economic one.


    Ah yes the old socialist/conservative/insert whatever response to any form of speech that you disagree with, shut it down. I'm a believer in the right to express my opinion I am.



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_libertarian_political_parties

    There's plenty of Libertarian parties and organisations active in the world, granted it's wikipedia but its handy just for summing some of them up. The American Libertarian party has nearly 250,000 members for example. In Ireland the P.D's were 'libertarian' to an extent economically if not so much socially.

    There are attempts to set up an Irish Libertarian party ongoing but setting up a new political party capable of overthrowing the Fianna Fail/Fine Gael/Labour triumvirate is nearly impossible, all you have to do is look at the amount of failed political parties littering the scene since the 1920's.

    And come on, "rich kid spotty nerds", that's bordering on personal abuse.


    So the problem with the Irish state is that public schools and social welfare exist? Will people have to pay to walk on the footpath in a libertarian society? Will The phoenix park be sold off to property developers? Will the fire service only put out fires in houses with fire insurance?


  • #73
    Executive Steve
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,373 ✭✭✭Executive Steve


    OisinT wrote: »
    I'm a libertarian that does not favour abolishing the social welfare system.

    I also believe that in some cases, government (read: state) ownership of electricity production is ok. But dividends ought to go back to the stockholders (read: the sovereign) as it does in Norway.




    And I'm a vegan , but I do love the odd steak.


  • #74
    Executive Steve
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,373 ✭✭✭Executive Steve


    McDougal wrote: »
    Well yes but why is there so much libertarian crap online and no movement publicly? The only answer is that libertarianism is for rich kid spotty nerds who grow out of it.




    It's working pretty well in Somalia at the moment though!


  • #75
    McDougal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭McDougal


    Executive Steve wrote: »
    It's working pretty well in Somalia at the moment though!

    Somalia is the only true libertarian state in the world.


  • #76
    HavingCrack
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭HavingCrack


    McDougal wrote: »
    So the problem with the Irish state is that public schools and social welfare exist? Will people have to pay to walk on the footpath in a libertarian society? Will The phoenix park be sold off to property developers? Will the fire service only put out fires in houses with fire insurance?

    As I previously stated not all libertarians favour completely abolishing social welfare, just scaling it back. There's no 'one size fits all' libertarianism creed.

    Interestingly schools funded by religious orders functioned from an educational viewpoint just fine in Ireland in the past (please don't mention child abuse, I'm well aware). I presume if public schools disappeared enough parents would care abotu their childrens education to band together and found a school a la 'The educate together' formula.

    I'm actually a left-libertarian so I believe certain areas (footpaths and parks) for example should be held by the government in common trust. Likewise the fire service and guards would still exist. What you're describing is pure anarchism not libertarianism.

    Executive Steve wrote: »
    It's working pretty well in Somalia at the moment though!

    Once again its anarchism not libertarianism, I don't think any libertarian would recommend an overnight changeover to anarchism.


  • #77
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    HavingCrack wrote: »
    That's just a childish answer to be honest. You can pretend that the welfare state is a social issue when at the end of the day its really an economic one.
    If you can't see it by now, you probably never will.
    HavingCrack wrote: »
    There are attempts to set up an Irish Libertarian party ongoing but setting up a new political party capable of overthrowing the Fianna Fail/Fine Gael/Labour triumvirate is nearly impossible, all you have to do is look at the amount of failed political parties littering the scene since the 1920's.
    By that metric shouldn't the three be the ultimate libertarian parties, where only the fittest survive? Ha, I knew it was a FF plot somehow or another.
    HavingCrack wrote: »
    That's pure anarchism that you're describing, not libertarianism. You seem to be confusing the two.
    Not really, charitable societies in the place of social welfare are certainly part of established libertarian canon, as well as part of the nineteenth century, which fits what I said very nicely. I suppose you could classify it as anarchism too.


  • #78
    fianna saor
    Registered Users Posts: 166 ✭✭fianna saor


    Killer Pigeon wrote: »
    I'm all for the establishment of an 'Irish National Front Party' or simple 'Irish National Party'.

    We should bring back the blue shirts too.

    irish national group are probably the closest thing in this regard. while not yet a registered they are heading in that direction.


  • #79
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I think we tried libertarian-style social welfare before.

    They were called workhouses.

    And we tried it during the Famine.

    Jeez them libertarian attitudes are great for clearing a bit of space! Once them scum poor are dead there's more room, food & water for the rest pc us, tis great Ted!


  • #80
    yermanoffthetv
    Registered Users Posts: 625 ✭✭✭yermanoffthetv


    Arrrgh this thread makes my head hurt. Firstly will people PLEASE look up what a nolan chart is before they say their "economicly right but socialy left" ect. theyre measured on different planes. +/- personal freedom and +/- economic freedom. There is no absolute agreement on what a libertarian is either, it can heavly vary depending on the school of thought.

    Secondly bailouts are NOT right wing, it flys in the face of what a free market advocate believes. The clue is in the name: FREE market. If a government comes along and bails out a private business with tax payers money it is a very socialist (left wing) action. In ireland FF/FG are IMHO are not center right or left but practice a wierd clientelistic populism, almost an oxymoron. serving an elite while feigning support to popular opinion

    Again in my opinion we have far too many left wing partys in Ireland. Most people would agree we have a poor standard of politician in the Dail, why on earth would we want more socialist policies which would mean giving the useless gob****es MORE control over how we live our lives, what we can do and how much of our hard earned money we can keep. Is it such a strange notion to want less of all that?


  • #81
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    th3 s1aught3r wrote: »
    Why is there no right wing party in Ireland?
    FF and FG really operate in the middle ground where most of the voters are and most of the rest are lefties.
    Most European countries have strong right wing parties, its odd we dont here

    The closest we had to it was the Progressive Democrats.

    Have a go at ressurecting them OP.


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  • #82
    fishy fishy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,456 ✭✭✭fishy fishy


    AckwelFoley wrote: »
    Socialist joe higgins - Sinn feinn - Greens - Labour X- FF/FG - PD's

    x = cenetrist

    FF/FG are somewhat of different than the other parties, you have members of each that fall left of the center and right of centre, but because of their history are aligned with either fg of ff

    Labour should be on the right hand side of the X if you ask me.


  • #83
    TwoShedsJackson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,438 ✭✭✭TwoShedsJackson


    fianna saor wrote: »
    irish national group are probably the closest thing in this regard. while not yet a registered they are heading in that direction.

    Got a link to a site or anything? Could do with a laugh.


  • #84
    greenflash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 499 ✭✭greenflash


    yermanoffthetv wrote: »
    In ireland FF/FG are IMHO are not center right or left but practice a wierd clientelistic populism, almost an oxymoron. serving an elite while feigning support to popular opinion

    Policy is pretty much decided on an ad hoc basis dependent on which crisis the government finds itself in at any particular time.

    Ireland's two party system is just a dog with two heads. When you get tired if petting and feeding one head you switch to the other. The sh1t still comes out the same though.


  • #85
    cournioni
    Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 12,739 Mod ✭✭✭✭cournioni


    wes wrote: »
    Maybe there policies don't appeal to people. Perhaps its time to go to the drawing boards, and come up with something new.

    That sounds like a very left wing approach.


  • #86
    MayoArsehole
    Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭MayoArsehole


    There are many Right wind partys in Ireland they just disguise themselves as liberal lefties but they are against anybody standing up to anything, if we complain about the Roma begging we are Racist, if we say the Polish are Racist against Africans, we are racist. It's these leftie looney liberals that are modern fascism, they are against anything and anyone that does not agree with their limited beliefs. Liberal Fascism by Jonah Goldberg explains it well, as Churchill said, todays anti Fascists are tomorrows Fascists. We have a right as Irish people to protect our culutural values even in the face of those who claim to have superior values to our own. It is not only openly right wing partys Irish people should fear.


  • #87
    returnNull
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,235 ✭✭✭returnNull


    ^^apt username


  • #88
    MayoArsehole
    Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭MayoArsehole


    returnNull wrote: »
    ^^apt username
    and the reason for it works well to exclude the people like yourself whose minds work on that level.


  • #89
    St.Spodo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭St.Spodo


    MayoArsehole wrote: »
    There are many Right wind partys in Ireland they just disguise themselves as liberal lefties but they are against anybody standing up to anything, if we complain about the Roma begging we are Racist, if we say the Polish are Racist against Africans, we are racist. It's these leftie looney liberals that are modern fascism, they are against anything and anyone that does not agree with their limited beliefs. Liberal Fascism by Jonah Goldberg explains it well, as Churchill said, todays anti Fascists are tomorrows Fascists. We have a right as Irish people to protect our culutural values even in the face of those who claim to have superior values to our own. It is not only openly right wing partys Irish people should fear.

    What cultural values are these?


  • #90
    MayoArsehole
    Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭MayoArsehole


    St.Spodo wrote: »
    What cultural values are these?
    If you have to ask.


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  • #91
    St.Spodo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭St.Spodo


    MayoArsehole wrote: »
    If you have to ask.

    I do. What cultural values are being eroded by lefties and the like?


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