Eircode Anomolies

gctest50 · 27-12-2015 8:25pm

All my posts, all i write is in English - like many more - pwned

Impetus wrote: »

It a reflection of the lack of thought, a corrupt government and public service. A third world environment, pretending to be in the first world.

I'd say lots of thought has gone into it , as you pointed out, it "accidently" fits together with the UK system

all that no " B " because it's used in Birmingham and so on

Impetus wrote: »

Tail wagging the dog. Same as the British Eircode contractor devising a so called "postcode" system for Ireland. They had to use alpha codes that did not conflict with British town names, leaving Cork with T and P and parts of Dublin with A and Navan with C etc.

It's too late for many - already more British than the British themselves you know

Impetus wrote: »

Yet another form of Anglo-Saxon stupid terrorism / global domination being given in to.

Impetus · 27-12-2015 8:28pm

gctest50 wrote: »

All my posts, all i write is in English - like many more - pwned

We could post here in Irish, the second oldest language in Europe (along with other Celtic languages), after Basque... if you wish...

clewbays · 27-12-2015 10:04pm

clewbays wrote: »

To get a higher success rate for automatic sorting by An Post

Impetus wrote: »

It does nothing to increase the probability of accurate machine sorting.

My reference was in relation to the question that was asked: why continue to use Dublin 2, Dublin 15, etc. Have you confirmed with An Post that the use of the Dublin postal districts does not enhance the accuracy of their machine sorting or are you the bible on this matter?

Impetus · 27-12-2015 10:16pm

M

clewbays wrote: »

My reference was in relation to the question that was asked: why continue to use Dublin 2, Dublin 15, etc. Have you confirmed with An Post that the use of the Dublin postal districts does not enhance the accuracy of their machine sorting or are you the bible on this matter?

There is no benefit. The scanner reads the entire address. Matches it to a database. It matters not whether Dublin 2 or D2 GW22 is there. Or both. This is bog standard UPU stuff. The ultra stupidity is the mishmash and long address format replete with county name and missing the building/house number.

It still points to the delivery address point and grid ref. So long as it is legible. If not legible the scan is displayed to a human somewhere, who reads the mush and attempts to correct same.

Eircode is a crap add on. A police state attempt. It does not fix the real problem - ie rural addresses don't really deliver a real address product. It is not user friendly. Not Google friendly. Not GPS friendly.

Moron country.

Eircode is a dumbbbbbb, Oirish, mishmash of stupid politicians, stupid permanent government, dumb regulation, and totally incompatible with systems used in the rest of Europe. And a waste of 40-ish million EUR.

Those involved/responsible should be fired...

Carawaystick · 29-12-2015 1:09am

Impetus wrote: »

There is no benefit. The scanner reads the entire address. Matches it to a database. It matters not whether Dublin 2 or D2 GW22 is there. Or both. This is bog standard UPU stuff. The ultra stupidity is the mishmash and long address format replete with county name and missing the building/house number.

It still points to the delivery address point and grid ref. So long as it is legible. If not legible the scan is displayed to a human somewhere, who reads the mush and attempts to correct same.

This is exactly the point for addresses which are not unique...

Impetus wrote: »

Eircode is a crap add on. A police state attempt. It does not fix the real problem - ie rural addresses don't really deliver a real address product. It is not user friendly. Not Google friendly. Not GPS friendly.

Moron country.

Eircode is a dumbbbbbb, Oirish, mishmash of stupid politicians, stupid permanent government, dumb regulation, and totally incompatible with systems used in the rest of Europe. And a waste of 40-ish million EUR.

Those involved/responsible should be fired...

Those responsible have earned their companies 30 odd million...

The encoding of positions to not allow fat finger errors could be said to be somewhat user friendly.
Alphabet and its subsidiaries not paying for it is a private sector investment decision.

I'm unsure how it's incompatible with systems used in Europe, britain has a 7 alphanumerical character postcode

Impetus · 29-12-2015 1:40am

Carawaystick wrote: »

This is exactly the point for addresses which are not unique...

Those responsible have earned their companies 30 odd million...

The encoding of positions to not allow fat finger errors could be said to be somewhat user friendly.

Eircode is loaded in favour of fat finger errors. Make a random character typo in some meaningless last four character combination and you have a completely different house, on another road, perhaps several km apart from the intended point of delivery. Eircode = FAT FINGER LAND squared.

Carawaystick wrote: »

Alphabet and its subsidiaries not paying for it is a private sector investment decision.

But they don't want to use it either. No more than DHL & co.

Carawaystick wrote: »

I'm unsure how it's incompatible with systems used in Europe, britain has a 7 alphanumerical character postcode

Britain's non-system is totally at variance with the rest of Europe and the world, where numeric codes of 4 to 7 digits are the norm.

The European / civil law countries use a simple addressing system

Name of company/person
Street name/house number
Postcode/town name

It applies in Continental Europe, Russia, Latin America, China etc.

The British system typically needs multiple lines

Name
Street and number
Area name
"Post town"
Sometimes county
Postcode

In Ireland we have four sorting centres. If anything these are the equivalent of British post towns back in the day. ie Dublin, Cork,Port Laoise and Athlone. All mail flows through one of the four. County names are irrelevant. Does anybody who doesn't live in one of these four "post towns" want to have to incorporate the post town name in their address? I suspect not. No more than someone who lives in a different county wants the wrong county to be "postally compliant" according to eircode's dumb system.

The letters used in Eircode have nothing to do with the town (aside from Dublin city). So there is no point in having letters, especially where there is no relationship between the letter and the town/region. One might as well have numbers which are understood by Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Arabs and others who don't use Roman characters.

But Ireland is a clueless, insular, copy the nearest neighbour, dumb wet island that generally takes the dumbest route possible, "lead" by dumb overpaid politicians.....

Given several thousand hours of thought by the brightest experts, I suspect that it would be impossible for them to devise a more stupid addressing, road signage, and postcoding system than is used in dysfunctional IRL.

marmurr1916 · 29-12-2015 7:25pm

Impetus wrote: »

But Ireland is a clueless, insular, copy the nearest neighbour, dumb wet island that generally takes the dumbest route possible, "lead" by dumb overpaid politicians.....

Given several thousand hours of thought by the brightest experts, I suspect that it would be impossible for them to devise a more stupid addressing, road signage, and postcoding system than is used in dysfunctional IRL.

So when are you leaving then? :P

PS: Ireland has the joint 6th best quality of life out of 188 states assessed by the UN:

http://hdr.undp.org/sites/default/files/ranking.pdf

Not bad for a country that was invaded, colonised, suppressed for hundreds of years and only gained its independence in December 1922.

Little things like postcodes aren't all that relevant to the quality of your life - lighten up dude.

ukoda · 30-12-2015 11:25am

Impetus wrote: »

But Ireland is a clueless, insular, copy the nearest neighbour, dumb wet island that generally takes the dumbest route possible, "lead" by dumb overpaid politicians.....

The irony is that the only dumb and clueless thing going on in relation to this is people like you and others failing to see the potential of having a unique address / location identifier for every single business and household in the country. Instead you adopt the "everything the government does is wrong and must be ranted about" approach. Yes I agree with you. "Typical Irish dumbness"

Calina · 30-12-2015 11:39am

ukoda wrote: »

The irony is that the only dumb and clueless thing going on in relation to this is people like you and others failing to see the potential of having a unique address / location identifier for every single business and household in the country. Instead you adopt the "everything the government does is wrong and must be ranted about" approach. Yes I agree with you. "Typical Irish dumbness"

I don't have an issue with a unique identifier. I have issues with how the one we got was developed.

ukoda · 30-12-2015 11:41am

Calina wrote: »

I don't have an issue with a unique identifier. I have issues with how the one we got was developed.

Fair enough. But dwell on that past event or give eircode a chance? Regardless of how it was delevopled it's still a unique identifier

Calina · 30-12-2015 11:46am

ukoda wrote: »

Fair enough. But dwell on that past event or give eircode a chance? Regardless of how it was delevopled it's still a unique identifier

Elements of how it was designed make it less useful.

Currently all of one postal item has arrived with it on it.

I am more in favour of writing off the cost of eircode and actually implementing something more effective.

But Ireland has a tendency not to do this but to pretend everything is grand and sure it'll do. We could do with recognising it won't do.

ukoda · 30-12-2015 11:50am

Calina wrote: »

Elements of how it was designed make it less useful.

Currently all of one postal item has arrived with it on it.

I am more in favour of writing off the cost of eircode and actually implementing something more effective.

But Ireland has a tendency not to do this but to pretend everything is grand and sure it'll do. We could do with recognising it won't do.

That all boils down to opinion though, "more effective" is subjective. Eircode can be extremely effective in what it was designed to do if people supported it, it will get there eventually anyway, but with wider support it would be faster and the benefits realised quicker.

plodder · 30-12-2015 1:32pm

ukoda wrote: »

That all boils down to opinion though, "more effective" is subjective. Eircode can be extremely effective in what it was designed to do if people supported it, it will get there eventually anyway, but with wider support it would be faster and the benefits realised quicker.

It doesn't really. Eircode would be objectively better if it were hierarchical. It could do exactly what it does now (unique id etc) but a lot more if it was hierarchical. The reasons for not making it hierarchical are all to do with monetising the system through obfuscating it, and an unproven claim that people "wouldn't like" the idea of a small area based postcode. The latter claim has more to do with making life easy for Eircode rather than making the best system possible.

Unfortunately, and also directly because they didn't do the research beforehand that many people suggested, as to what kind of postcode the public would want, those chickens are coming home to roost through the high level of scepticism about Eircode and the random codes etc.

ukoda · 30-12-2015 1:37pm

plodder wrote: »

It doesn't really. Eircode would be objectively better if it were hierarchical. It could do exactly what it does now (unique id etc) but a lot more if it was hierarchical. The reasons for not making it hierarchical are all to do with monetising the system through obfuscating it, and an unproven claim that people "wouldn't like" the idea of a small area based postcode. The latter claim has more to do with making life easy for Eircode rather than making the best system possible.

Unfortunately, and also directly because they didn't do the research beforehand that many people suggested, as to what kind of postcode the public would want, those chickens are coming home to roost through the high level of scepticism about Eircode and the random codes etc.

There are pros and cons of hierarchical codes that have been debated at length on other threads.

What I just read there was 2 paragraphs of your opinion.

"Hierarchical would be better" is not an objective fact. It is purely your opinion.

plodder · 30-12-2015 1:44pm

ukoda wrote: »

There are pros and cons of hierarchical codes that have been debated at length on other threads.

What I just read there was 2 paragraphs of your opinion.

"Hierarchical would be better" is not an objective fact. It is purely your opinion.

But how could it not be better if it does everything that Eircode does, but has extra information in the structure, that can be used?

The only reasons have nothing to do with the code itself. You can argue that those reasons out weigh my "opinion". But, what I said above is fact. The claim that people wouldn't like a hierarchical code has no proof. etc.

ukoda · 30-12-2015 1:48pm

plodder wrote: »

But how could it not be better if it does everything that Eircode does, but has extra information in the structure, that can be used?

The only reasons have nothing to do with the code itself. You can argue that those reasons out weigh my "opinion". But, what I said above is fact. The claim that people wouldn't like a hierarchical code has no proof. etc.

2 things, it wouldn't be better if it had drawbacks.

The very fact that you are telling me there's no proof that people wouldn't prefer a hierarchical code is proof that you can't possibly claim it's fact they WOULD like a hierarchical. By your own words. No one asked the public that question

plodder · 30-12-2015 2:22pm

ukoda wrote: »

2 things, it wouldn't be better if it had drawbacks.

The very fact that you are telling me there's no proof that people wouldn't prefer a hierarchical code is proof that you can't possibly claim it's fact they WOULD like a hierarchical. By your own words. No one asked the public that question

It's proof that the system was designed without evidence of what would be acceptable to the public.

ukoda · 30-12-2015 3:14pm

plodder wrote: »

It's proof that the system was designed without evidence of what would be acceptable to the public.

If you surveyed the public on what type of postcode they wanted, I doubt any significant amount of people would even know what a hierarchical code is.

They claim to have consulted with the industry users before design, a claim that none of them refute. However they do claim they didn't get the exact postcode they wanted. But that goes back to "you can't please everyone"

There are more industries than transport that can benefit from postcodes and I would argue the eircode design is entirely workable for the logistics industry. Their argument is "it's not workable they way we wanted it to work, you know, in a way that we'd to invest nothing in our aging software and systems, so therefore it's useless"

Then you see a younger more innovative company like Nightline saying "we support this and it will greatly help our business"

plodder · 30-12-2015 4:47pm

ukoda wrote: »

If you surveyed the public on what type of postcode they wanted, I doubt any significant amount of people would even know what a hierarchical code is.

That's certainly an opinion anyway. The general public might not know the terminology but they know the difference between a random code and one where properties in the same small area have very similar codes.

They claim to have consulted with the industry users before design, a claim that none of them refute. However they do claim they didn't get the exact postcode they wanted. But that goes back to "you can't please everyone"

They didn't consult with the public at all.

There are more industries than transport that can benefit from postcodes and I would argue the eircode design is entirely workable for the logistics industry. Their argument is "it's not workable they way we wanted it to work, you know, in a way that we'd to invest nothing in our aging software and systems, so therefore it's useless"

It's the other sectors that would have benefitted more from a hierarchical code.

ukoda · 30-12-2015 4:53pm

plodder wrote: »

That's certainly an opinion anyway. The general public might not know the terminology but they know the difference between a random code and one where properties in the same small area have very similar codes.

They didn't consult with the public at all.

It's the other sectors that would have benefitted more from a hierarchical code.

The main complaints I see from the public is "it doesn't work with anything yet" i.e. Google maps etc. But that's not a design flaw, it's slow implementation.

I haven't really seen anyone complain in the general public about the design (apart from vested interest people)

I've not actually seen or heard anyone use the complaint "it doesn't look like my neighbours" like I say, the main complaint is "sur what can I use it for?"

plodder · 30-12-2015 6:59pm

ukoda wrote: »

The main complaints I see from the public is "it doesn't work with anything yet" i.e. Google maps etc. But that's not a design flaw, it's slow implementation.

Many would argue that is a design flaw. If the design was an open one, not based on a database, and not needing to be paid for, then maybe it would work on google maps, satnavs etc by now. The fact that the Irish postcode to geocode database is bigger than the UK's is a design issue if not a flaw.

I haven't really seen anyone complain in the general public about the design (apart from vested interest people)

I'd say most people on here complaining (including myself) are from the general public with no vested interest. I can only think of one poster who I am pretty sure has a vested interest and he hasn't posted for a while.

I've not actually seen or heard anyone use the complaint "it doesn't look like my neighbours" like I say, the main complaint is "sur what can I use it for?"

Lots of people are complaining that the codes are random and meaningless. If the codes actually meant something and referred to identifiable areas they would be easier to remember.

Impetus · 30-12-2015 7:26pm

marmurr1916 wrote: »

So when are you leaving then? :P

PS: Ireland has the joint 6th best quality of life out of 188 states assessed by the UN:

http://hdr.undp.org/sites/default/files/ranking.pdf

Not bad for a country that was invaded, colonised, suppressed for hundreds of years and only gained its independence in December 1922.

Little things like postcodes aren't all that relevant to the quality of your life - lighten up dude.

If some jokers/vandals removed the house number off every house and building in Ireland, and the street/road name signs, it would increase the difficulty of visiting and delivery. That would be a reduction in the quality of life, under the communications and accessibility heading. You would miss that because you expect it to be.

Just because you have not yet obviously experienced an efficient, transparent, intelligently designed postcode system, does not mean that it does not add to the quality of life and efficiency of a place.

There is no systematic tram system in Dublin, Cork etc. By that I mean say 15 numbered lines in Dublin and say 2 in Cork that induce the bulk of the travelling public to use public transport for most of their journeys. I suspect that most people who live within reasonable connecting time of Luas use the tram - unless they are going to a destination that is off the public transport network. One of the reasons why the M50 is running to saturation levels at peak times. Good infrastructure leads to a sustainable country.

Sorry to say Ireland is not a sustainable country, and has a long way to go before it achieves same.

Impetus · 30-12-2015 7:29pm

ukoda wrote: »

If you surveyed the public on what type of postcode they wanted, I doubt any significant amount of people would even know what a hierarchical code is.

They claim to have consulted with the industry users before design, a claim that none of them refute. However they do claim they didn't get the exact postcode they wanted. But that goes back to "you can't please everyone"

There are more industries than transport that can benefit from postcodes and I would argue the eircode design is entirely workable for the logistics industry. Their argument is "it's not workable they way we wanted it to work, you know, in a way that we'd to invest nothing in our aging software and systems, so therefore it's useless"

Then you see a younger more innovative company like Nightline saying "we support this and it will greatly help our business"

The code is optimised to make money from selling the data, and be useless to anybody who is not prepared to write a big cheque in favour of certain vested interests in the business.

ukoda · 30-12-2015 7:43pm

Impetus wrote: »

The code is optimised to make money from selling the data, and be useless to anybody who is not prepared to write a big cheque in favour of certain vested interests in the business.

Yes it is monitised. So what? A self financing piece of infrastructure.

Write a big cheque? I would guess that you make that claim not having one clue what it would actually cost to get eircode.

ukoda · 30-12-2015 7:49pm

plodder wrote: »

Many would argue that is a design flaw. If the design was an open one, not based on a database, and not needing to be paid for, then maybe it would work on google maps, satnavs etc by now. The fact that the Irish postcode to geocode database is bigger than the UK's is a design issue if not a flaw.

I'd say most people on here complaining (including myself) are from the general public with no vested interest. I can only think of one poster who I am pretty sure has a vested interest and he hasn't posted for a while.

Lots of people are complaining that the codes are random and meaningless. If the codes actually meant something and referred to identifiable areas they would be easier to remember.

Again all opinion, and anyone posting here has a keener than most interest in eircode, not vested, but not general public level of understanding either. and you've made one completely factually inaccurate statement of "it's database is bigger than the UK one" that's simply wrong.

Someone went to the trouble of explaining in a blog in great detail that the entire database for eircode needed for navigation is only a few hundred MB and would easily fit on any smartphone.

I'll try find the blog and link you later.

EDIT: found it here

Eircode and geo's = 20 Mb
Eircode and geo's and all addresses = 88 Mb

In contrast, the same info from Royal Mail database is about 230 Mb

http://www.snoopdos.com/blog/how-big-is-the-eircode-database/

Impetus · 30-12-2015 8:04pm

ukoda wrote: »

Yes it is monitised. So what? A self financing piece of infrastructure.

Write a big cheque? I would guess that you make that claim not having one clue what it would actually cost to get eircode.

Feel free to post a link to your price list for eircode here. Eircode is copying the British practice of selling postcodes.

In free countries, such as Belgium, you can download the entire list of codes from a website. They haven't made it needlessly complicated either to put the user off codes.

http://www.bpost.be/site/fr/business/customer_service/search/postal_codes.html

That is why DHL etc are not using the Eircode. Go to http://dct.dhl.com and enter Ireland as the origin country, and the postcode/zip gets greyed out.

Impetus · 30-12-2015 8:05pm

ukoda wrote: »

Again all opinion, and anyone posting here has a keener than most interest in eircode, not vested, but not general public level of understanding either. and you've made one completely factually inaccurate statement of "it's database is bigger than the UK one" that's simply wrong.

Someone went to the trouble of explaining in a blog in great detail that the entire database for eircode needed for navigation is only a few hundred MB and would easily fit on any smartphone.

I'll try find the blog and link you later.

EDIT: found it here

Eircode and geo's = 20 Mb
Eircode and geo's and all addresses = 88 Mb

In contrast, the PAF from Royal Mail is about 230 Mb

http://www.snoopdos.com/blog/how-big-is-the-eircode-database/

Ireland is less than 10% of GB in terms of number of address points. You are not comparing like with like.

ukoda · 30-12-2015 8:06pm

Impetus wrote: »

Feel free to post a link to your price list for eircode here. Eircode is copying the British practice of selling postcodes.

In free countries, such as Belgium, you can download the entire list of codes from a website. They haven't made it needlessly complicated either to put the user off codes.

http://www.bpost.be/site/fr/business/customer_service/search/postal_codes.html

That is why DHL etc are not using the Eircode. Go to http://dct.dhl.com and enter Ireland as the origin country, and the postcode/zip gets greyed out.

Why don't you go to the eircode website and look at the price list yourself. It's there.

It would be prudent to be actually informed of the topic you're talking about

ukoda · 30-12-2015 8:07pm

Impetus wrote: »

Ireland is less than 10% of GB in terms of number of address points. You are not comparing like with like.

I'm not trying to. Read the thread conversation in context and you'll see that someone claimed the Irish database was bigger than the UK one and this a design flaw. I'm only correcting that inaccurate statement.

plodder · 30-12-2015 8:11pm

ukoda wrote: »

Again all opinion, and anyone posting here has a keener than most interest in eircode, not vested, but not general public level of understanding either. and you've made one completely factually inaccurate statement of "it's database is bigger than the UK one" that's simply wrong.

Someone went to the trouble of explaining in a blog in great detail that the entire database for eircode needed for navigation is only a few hundred MB and would easily fit on any smartphone.

I'll try find the blog and link you later.

EDIT: found it here

Eircode and geo's = 20 Mb
Eircode and geo's and all addresses = 88 Mb

In contrast, the PAF from Royal Mail is about 230 Mb

http://www.snoopdos.com/blog/how-big-is-the-eircode-database/

Wrong, I'm afraid.

UK: 1.8 million postcodes

Ireland: 2.2 million postcodes

Therefore the Irish postcode to geocode database is larger than the UK's

I never said anything about the UK PAF. The database I was comparing was specifically the one that maps postcodes to geocodes only since this is the one that is available free of charge in the UK.

ukoda · 30-12-2015 8:15pm

plodder wrote: »

Wrong, I'm afraid.

UK: 1.8 million postcodes

Ireland: 2.2 million postcodes

Therefore the Irish postcode to geocode database is larger than the UK's

You said DATABASE

Irish postcode database with all addresses = 88MB

UK postcode database with all addresses = 230MB

Therefore Irish database is smaller in size.

What you meant to say so is "there are more postcodes in Ireland than there are in the UK" what's your point?

Putting a whole load of words in bold doesn't make you right.

Impetus · 30-12-2015 8:19pm

ukoda wrote: »

I'm not trying to. Read the thread conversation in context and you'll see that someone claimed the Irish database was bigger than the UK one and this a design flaw. I'm only correcting that inaccurate statement.

It is bigger than the British database. The GB database has name of street and buildings 2 to 14 even postcode or 1 to 13 odd postcode = M2 1AB (rubbish code for example purposes).

The Irish postcode database has no precise identity for each building in rural areas - which make up about 50% of addresses. So half the eircode database is a useless fog of information. On the eircode website you can't find an address unless it has a house or farm name or you know exactly where the building is on a map. The eircode database is full of hot air, stupid repetition. It has not been devised by someone who knows how to construct a database.

The exercise is a work of incompetence. No different to a company who creates a database of customers for billing purposes. Assume they have 10 customers called John Murphy in Dublin. Unless it collects the detailed address all they would have is

Customer name John Murphy
Address Dublin.

Capita and the Minister responsible have presided over the shambles which cost about 40 mil EUR. Not as much as an apology.

plodder · 30-12-2015 8:30pm

ukoda wrote: »

You said DATABASE

Irish postcode database with all addresses = 88MB

UK postcode database with all addresses = 230MB

Therefore Irish database is smaller in size.

What you meant to say so is "there are more postcodes in Ireland than there are in the UK" what's your point?

Putting a whole load of words in bold doesn't make you right.

Putting words in bold is a (vain) attempt that you might read them :rolleyes:

Read my post that you quoted. I didn't just say "database". I said "postcode to geocode database". The size of a postcode to geocode database is directly related to the number of postcodes. Addresses have nothing to do with it.

This seems to be important, because it's one of the reasons why DHL said they aren't going to implement eircode - due to the number of individual postcodes in Ireland being greater than in the UK.

Had Eircode been designed hierarchically, even with unique identifiers they could have worked around this by ignoring the final part of the code, and it would still have been useful to them.

ukoda · 30-12-2015 8:35pm

plodder wrote: »

Putting words in bold is a (vain) attempt that you might read them :rolleyes:

Read my post that you quoted. I didn't just say "database". I said "postcode to geocode database". The size of a postcode to geocode database is directly related to the number of postcodes. Addresses have nothing to do with it.

This seems to be important, because it's one of the reasons why DHL said they aren't going to implement eircode - due to the number of individual postcodes in Ireland being greater than in the UK.

Had Eircode been designed hierarchically, even with unique identifiers they could have worked around this by ignoring the final part of the code, and it would still have been useful to them.

Oh for god sake. If you want a unique identifier postcode, which we seem to agree we do, then there will always be more postcodes here than UK. No matter if the code is heirarchical or not. You tried to claim that as a design flaw, that some how a heirarchical code would solve. nonsense.

There's absolutely no record anywhere I can find that DHL objected on the grounds of "too many postcodes" where are you getting this from??

plodder · 30-12-2015 8:42pm

ukoda wrote: »

Oh for god sake. If you want a unique identifier postcode, which we seem to agree we do, then there will always be more postcodes here than UK. No matter if the code is heirarchical or not. You tried to claim that as a design flaw, that some how a heirarchical code would solve. nonsense.

Then you accept you were wrong to say my point was a "factual inaccuracy" then?

If the code were hierarchical, then the equivalent database in this country to the UK's free postcode->geocode mapping, might be one whose size is based on the number of small areas in the country, not the number of individual addressable units. That would be around 30 to 60 thousand, which is much more reasonable for a country the size of Ireland.

ukoda · 30-12-2015 8:48pm

plodder wrote: »

Then you accept you were wrong to say my point was a "factual inaccuracy" then?

If the code were hierarchical, then the equivalent database in this country to the UK's free postcode->geocode mapping, might be one whose size is based on the number of small areas in the country, not the number of individual addressable units. That would be around 30 to 60 thousand, which is much more reasonable for a country the size of Ireland.

You were factually inaccurate, if you refer to the size of a database, then it's measured in MB/GB/TB, you claimed the "post code to Geocode database is larger than the UK one"
This is still wrong, take like for like
Irish postcode database with post code and geo's only is 22MB, still smaller than the UK one

If you want to change your statement to "there are more postcode database entries in the Irish database than the UK one" then you'd be factually accurate.

You're confusing "size" with "number of entries"

Impetus · 30-12-2015 9:06pm

plodder wrote: »

This seems to be important, because it's one of the reasons why DHL said they aren't going to implement eircode - due to the number of individual postcodes in Ireland being greater than in the UK.

Had Eircode been designed hierarchically, even with unique identifiers they could have worked around this by ignoring the final part of the code, and it would still have been useful to them.

Eircocde is not practical for business - big or small. It was designed for bureaucrats, who have unlimited public money, for their use. And it is of use to nobody else really.

If DHL can't see themselves putting Eircode on their global database, I suspect Garmin and other GPS manufacturers will take the same decision.

UPS seem to be on the same line. https://www.ups.com/?Site=Corporate&cookie=ie_en_home&setCookie=yes Enter Germany as sending country, and a postcode field appears, enter IRL as sending country and no mention of postcode. Ditto for Fedex: https://www.fedex.com/ratefinder/standalone?method=originCountryChange

Eircode also poses legal issues for Google and any other web service that might think about converting an Eircode to a point on the map - in terms of privacy laws for one. The provision of a lookup online for a postcode could be the straw that breaks the camel's back in security terms. eg If I operate a Hermes or Louis Vuitton store, and someone hacks into my customer database, which has eircodes, if Google or Garmin or anyone else translates the eircode to a precise location, where a rich customer lives and gets burgled, Capita is part of the problem and is contributorily liable, as is the minister who gave them the particular job. If IRL had a proper postcode - as in 10400 Dublin - it would be simpler and people who have thieving or hacking agendas would be no better off.

One wonders if Capita has public/product liability insurance for their product? Or has the Irish state written a big blank cheque in contractual terms in its agreement with Capita?

Impetus · 30-12-2015 9:09pm

plodder wrote: »

Then you accept you were wrong to say my point was a "factual inaccuracy" then?

If the code were hierarchical, then the equivalent database in this country to the UK's free postcode->geocode mapping, might be one whose size is based on the number of small areas in the country, not the number of individual addressable units. That would be around 30 to 60 thousand, which is much more reasonable for a country the size of Ireland.

+ Hierarchical codes are easier for the general public to grasp and buy into.

The old German PLZ (before they re-united with "East Germany") followed the railway lines. Each town's postcode was just one number away from the next town down the line. Biggest country in Europe - 4 digit postcode.

the_syco · 30-12-2015 9:21pm

ukoda wrote: »

That all boils down to opinion though, "more effective" is subjective.

It can't be used for deliveries, as it's not in satnavs, and it can't be used to locate someone, as it's not in satnavs, so I'm at a loss to see what it could be used for?

ukoda · 30-12-2015 9:32pm

the_syco wrote: »

It can't be used for deliveries, as it's not in satnavs, and it can't be used to locate someone, as it's not in satnavs, so I'm at a loss to see what it could be used for?

It can't YET be used on sat navs

Google confirmed at a conference they are working on implementation.
A major mapping company confirmed on Twitter that they are working to introduce eircode on sat navs.
Eircode themselves are telling us it will be on these things shortly.

It CAN be used for deliveries. Nightline, one of Ireland's largest courier companies are actively using it and support it.

Impetus · 30-12-2015 9:44pm

the_syco wrote: »

It can't be used for deliveries, as it's not in satnavs, and it can't be used to locate someone, as it's not in satnavs, so I'm at a loss to see what it could be used for?

That's easy - it will be used for government stuff. Central Statistics Office etc.

It is a standard account number for government to point to places in Ireland.

Cost - €40 mil.

They are pretending that it a postcode. But few can remember theirs, and even fewer can remember the postcode of others.

I did a joke Christmas card on my PC with a pic for a few people. One, well educated, intelligent person remarked after seeing the "from Impetus (real name) at X99 RW5H to their family name at X99 Z12Q" - Oh now I know - it is a postcode after some discussion. It took her some time to recognise the object. This person is one of the bridge champions in Ireland. What hope the ordinary man in the street......

X99 RW5H and X99 Z12Q (fake codes) are next door to each other.

Time to fire capita and hang the succession of gov ministers involved with this stupid non-system. The most evil code - next to Iran's code, where you have to get a license to receive mail and get your unique 10 digit postcode.

IR post website: http://www.post.ir/DesktopModules/Articles/ArticlesView.aspx?TabID=1&Site=postportal&Lang=en-US&ItemID=10337&mid=10768

Impetus · 30-12-2015 9:46pm

ukoda wrote: »

It CAN be used for deliveries. Nightline, one of Ireland's largest courier companies are actively using it and support it.

Who is Nightline? Eircocde's one source of fame?

ukoda · 30-12-2015 9:47pm

Impetus wrote: »

Who is Nightline? Eircocde's one source of fame?

www.google.ie

Impetus · 30-12-2015 9:51pm

ukoda wrote: »

www.google.ie

Nightline is not listed in Google's 10-K as a subsidiary.

https://investor.google.com/pdf/20141231_google_10K.pdf

ukoda · 30-12-2015 9:52pm

Impetus wrote: »

Nightline is not listed in Google's 10-K as a subsidiary.

https://investor.google.com/pdf/20141231_google_10K.pdf

No. If you want to know who Nighline is. Use google search engine to find out.

Impetus · 30-12-2015 10:03pm

ukoda wrote: »

No. If you want to know who Nighline is. Use google search engine to find out.

Google search reveals :

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline
http://abc.go.com/shows/nightline
https://twitter.com/Nightline?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightline
https://www.facebook.com/nightline/
http://www.hulu.com/nightline

None in the logistics business.

Perhaps they have a lowwwww Google ranking?

marmurr1916 · 30-12-2015 10:07pm

plodder wrote: »

It doesn't really. Eircode would be objectively better if it were hierarchical. It could do exactly what it does now (unique id etc) but a lot more if it was hierarchical. The reasons for not making it hierarchical are all to do with monetising the system through obfuscating it, and an unproven claim that people "wouldn't like" the idea of a small area based postcode. The latter claim has more to do with making life easy for Eircode rather than making the best system possible.

Unfortunately, and also directly because they didn't do the research beforehand that many people suggested, as to what kind of postcode the public would want, those chickens are coming home to roost through the high level of scepticism about Eircode and the random codes etc.

What is the obsession with making it hierarchical? Why does it need to be hierarchical? Companies that want to group Eircodes can do so in any way they wish, for any legal purpose they wish, without any need for it to be hierarchical. Computer databases render hierarchical postcodes redundant.

ukoda · 30-12-2015 10:07pm

Impetus wrote: »

Google search reveals :

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline
http://abc.go.com/shows/nightline
https://twitter.com/Nightline?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightline
https://www.facebook.com/nightline/
http://www.hulu.com/nightline

None in the logistics business.

Perhaps they have a lowwwww Google ranking?

At this stage I assume you're just trolling me. But in case you genuinely can't figure it out:

Use google Ireland. That is, use the URL www.google.ie and then type in Nightline

It's the very first search result.

If you still can't manage that....

Then just click this link below to find out who Nightline are

www.nightline.ie

marmurr1916 · 30-12-2015 10:10pm

Impetus wrote: »

It is bigger than the British database. The GB database has name of street and buildings 2 to 14 even postcode or 1 to 13 odd postcode = M2 1AB (rubbish code for example purposes).

The Irish postcode database has no precise identity for each building in rural areas - which make up about 50% of addresses. So half the eircode database is a useless fog of information. On the eircode website you can't find an address unless it has a house or farm name or you know exactly where the building is on a map. The eircode database is full of hot air, stupid repetition. It has not been devised by someone who knows how to construct a database.

The exercise is a work of incompetence. No different to a company who creates a database of customers for billing purposes. Assume they have 10 customers called John Murphy in Dublin. Unless it collects the detailed address all they would have is

Customer name John Murphy
Address Dublin.

Capita and the Minister responsible have presided over the shambles which cost about 40 mil EUR. Not as much as an apology.

If all you have is postcodes for your UK customers, you don't have their precise address. You have a list of potential addresses.

On the other hand, if I have the Eircodes of Irish customers, I have the precise address of the customers.

gizmo555 · 30-12-2015 10:15pm

ukoda wrote: »

There's absolutely no record anywhere I can find that DHL objected on the grounds of "too many postcodes" where are you getting this from??

Why We Won’t Use Eircode:

To implement Eircode in its current format, the DHL Express IT infrastructure will require bespoke software development on many internal and external (customer-facing) systems. Unlike the rest of the world’s postcodes, Eircode doesn’t fit into our global IT platform.

In particular, the granularity of the routing key is inefficient due to its large geographic coverage based on the national postal sort centres and in turn becomes redundant. Also the non-sequential unique identifier creates significant logistics and IT challenges. To put this into context, DHL currently has 3.4m postcode-ranges in its databases for all countries in the world that operate a postcode. With Eircode we would need to add a minimum of 2.2m entries just for Ireland which adds its implementation costs as well as risk.

Furthermore, with Eircode’s current format it is not possible to identify an address from just ‘reading’ the postcode. On that basis it will be easier to use the address lines we currently use to-day.

http://www.ftai.ie/export/sites/irel...unications.pdf

Eircode Anomolies

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