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Tunnel from Dublin to Holyhead

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    #62
    Curly Judge
    Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭Curly Judge


    Joe Public wrote: »
    Will ye keep up please, they are already in training for the wrestling

    zuTqS.jpg

    I submit!


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    #63
    bawn79
    Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    Was discussing a trip to Sicily over the weekend where my wife said she had taken a train ferry over to the island from Italy while traveling years ago. I couldn't believe such a thing existed but when I checked up they do.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_ferry

    Would this be of any potential benefit in the debate of a tunnel from Ireland to Britain? Maybe as an interim measure between building a tunnel, perhaps first constructing railway lines either side first which could be linked via a train ferry. If the train ferry could pay for the railway line over 20-30 years, then maybe the next step would be to build the tunnel which wouldn't have the capital cost of the rail lines attached to it.
    Just throwing it out there as a brainstorming idea.


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    #64
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    well apart from the different gauges, what's the difference between bringing over a wagon or a container? You surely aren't advocating passnger train ferries?


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    #65
    bawn79
    Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    corktina wrote: »
    well apart from the different gauges, what's the difference between bringing over a wagon or a container? You surely aren't advocating passnger train ferries?

    Sorry I'm not advocating anything, I just didn't know train ferries existed and just said I'd post the idea for brainstorming purposes.
    In terms of wagons versus containers, just off the top of my head I suppose a lot fewer drivers involved. I suppose why do we transport some freight on trains currently versus trucks? I imagine its more efficient in terms of fuel per load.


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    #66
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    no I meant what advantage would there be over loading a container from a train to the ferry and back to a train. Seems to me that doing it that way overcomes the gauge problem as you use a different set of wheels each side,.

    Train ferries used to operate (and probably still do from Harwich to the Hook) across the English Channel. Possibly the Tunnel has killed them all off


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    #67
    bawn79
    Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    corktina wrote: »
    no I meant what advantage would there be over loading a container from a train to the ferry and back to a train. Seems to me that doing it that way overcomes the gauge problem as you use a different set of wheels each side,.

    Train ferries used to operate (and probably still do from Harwich to the Hook) across the English Channel. Possibly the Tunnel has killed them all off

    Does the train not drive onto a ferry fully loaded and then off the other side? (Ignoring gauge for min) Therefore the loading / unloading is removed?


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    #68
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    It's a novel idea, but it would also suffer from some of the same set backs as the tunnel idea, i.e. different gauges may require specially adapted trains and it would require the UK government to construct a high speed branch line into north Wales, something that wouldn't really be of much benefit to them because (unlike the channel tunnel to France) they'd be connecting themselves to a comparatively small economy in an age of low fare airlines. There's also the problem of Welsh nationalism, if a high speed line went through the sparsely populated north of Wales just to form an international link to Ireland(possibly with no stops in Wales), then Cardiff would have to be connected to the high speed network also.


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    #69
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    i don't think we are talking high speed lines here, existing lines are perfect for freight, if there was any.

    I think there would be less capacity and therefore a train ferry would be less economic than a container ship.


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    #70
    Jim Martin
    Registered Users Posts: 806 ✭✭✭Jim Martin


    British Rail used to operate a freight train ferry from Harwich to Zeebrugge until 1987:

    http://www.eafa.org.uk/catalogue/794


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    #71
    Jim Martin
    Registered Users Posts: 806 ✭✭✭Jim Martin


    and a passenger one from Dover to Dunkirk until it was replaced by the Chunnel:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Ferry


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    #72
    Jim Martin
    Registered Users Posts: 806 ✭✭✭Jim Martin


    Jim Martin wrote: »
    and a passenger one from Dover to Dunkirk until it was replaced by the Chunnel:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Ferry

    I once had the pleasure of travelling on this and it was quite an experience I can tell you. The operation of being shunted onto the ferry made it impossible to sleep until we got well under way on the French metals owing to my excitement with all the fascinating activity!


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    #73
    petronius
    Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭petronius


    tunnel from dublin to holyhead - sounds far fetched and too expensive would have to be considered as some part of a long term High-Speed Rail link from Dublin-Manchester-London and with the trouble over High Speed in the home counties i cant see it happening.
    A tunnel say 40miles is an engineering challenge and economically punitive -it would cost the equivalent of baling out Anglo Irish Bank or more!
    -
    before there was scheduled rail services from london via wales ferry to rosslare and on to killarney


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    #74
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,843 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    look at that sham that is Dublin rail transport, this is cloud cuckoo land stuff. If the airports made parking on site cheaper and guaranteed no more than 15 min security wait, they could make up a lot of ground. Fairly simple and cheap stuff to do... Also new planes are posting considerable fuel savings and lowering the passenger cost per mile or whatever other metrics they use...


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    #75
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    how are you going to get the planes into the tunnel?


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    #76
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,409 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    corktina wrote: »
    how are you going to get the planes into the tunnel?

    He is just winging it.


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    #77
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    What'd be a good measure of demand is if HS2 was extended from Birmingham to Hollyhead and rail and sail packages are competitively priced with well timed connections. London in 4:30. A tunnel under the Irish sea could potentially knock 1:30 off that time, maybe more. So assuming a 3 you journey, that'd be about competitive with air travel assuming theres a nice price


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    #78
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    The problem with talking about this is not that politicians can't see beyond the next election, it's that 90% or more of the population can not even think think beyond the next election and you can forget about projects like this which are not so much needed now but could be a massive help in 20 or 50 years down the road.

    cgcsb wrote: »
    What'd be a good measure of demand is if HS2 was extended from Birmingham to Hollyhead and rail and sail packages are competitively priced with well timed connections. London in 4:30. A tunnel under the Irish sea could potentially knock 1:30 off that time, maybe more. So assuming a 3 you journey, that'd be about competitive with air travel assuming theres a nice price

    Nobody is going to fund extending HS2 to a ferry and limited local population around it.

    Depending on what kind of capacity is left on HS2 (with HS3 feeding into it), then maybe you could run high speed trains to the ferry where they run at current or improved local speed until they get back to HS2. This is what is done with ICE TD trains on the Berlin-Hamburg-Copenhagen route etc, which is not high speed track all the way.

    Idbatterim wrote: »
    look at that sham that is Dublin rail transport, this is cloud cuckoo land stuff. If the airports made parking on site cheaper and guaranteed no more than 15 min security wait, they could make up a lot of ground. Fairly simple and cheap stuff to do... Also new planes are posting considerable fuel savings and lowering the passenger cost per mile or whatever other metrics they use...

    Parking in Dublin Airport or any Irish airport won't be much help when (not if) the slots in the south of England's major airports are more limited and are valued too much to give many of them to flights to Ireland.


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    #79
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    monument wrote: »
    Nobody is going to fund extending HS2 to a ferry and limited local population around it.

    Obviously the town of hollyhead wouldn't be the target market. Dublin to London is the busiest international air route on Earth, a reliable sail and rail could well take a chunk out if the Ryanair monopoly


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    #80
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,832 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Obviously the town of hollyhead wouldn't be the target market. Dublin to London is the busiest international air route on Earth, a reliable sail and rail could well take a chunk out if the Ryanair monopoly

    Two issues here

    1: Not a chance it'd have any impact - there's still a two hour boat trip, no matter what you do rail-wise

    2: Ryanair monopoly? Not sure what planet you're on. Aer Lingus are the dominant carrier on the London route (as well as to nearly every point in the UK since they went prop on smaller routes, as they have the advantage in timings and frequency) but specifically on London you have:

    Aer Lingus to LHR/LGW
    Flybe to LCY/SEN
    Ryanair to LTN/LGW/STN
    British Airways to LHR/LCY
    Cityjet to LCY
    Stobart to SEN

    Considering the competition there and the resulting pricing, and the huge amount that would need to be recouped for HSR, how on earth do you think it could be competitively priced in the first place? Take a look at pricing to London City right now for example.


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    #81
    Jim Martin
    Registered Users Posts: 806 ✭✭✭Jim Martin


    If air passengers & freight transporters had to pay the actual cost of the vast pollution they are causing, then it would be a whole new 'ball-game'!


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    #82
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Jim Martin wrote: »
    If air passengers & freight transporters had to pay the actual cost of the vast pollution they are causing, then it would be a whole new 'ball-game'!

    Indeed so and rail would be gone. Ancient hulking great diesel locos are much more polluting than modern cars and trucks and there is no case for replacing them. Just think what the Carbon Footprint would be of driving a high speed rail route to Holyhead.


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    #83
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    corktina wrote: »
    Indeed so and rail would be gone. Ancient hulking great diesel locos are much more polluting than modern cars and trucks and there is no case for replacing them. Just think what the Carbon Footprint would be of driving a high speed rail route to Holyhead.

    Err... Coca-Cola clam to be making a CO2 reduction by using trains over trucks. So do many companies in the UK.

    That's without switching to electric.


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    #84
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    corktina wrote: »
    Indeed so and rail would be gone. Ancient hulking great diesel locos are much more polluting than modern cars and trucks and there is no case for replacing them. Just think what the Carbon Footprint would be of driving a high speed rail route to Holyhead.

    I don't know where you get your information from but modern cars and trucks are certainly less efficient than diesel locomotion both in terms of carbon emission and traffic congestion. And a switch to electric trains would certainly leave cars and trucks in the dust in the efficiency stakes.


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    #85
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    MYOB wrote: »
    Two issues here

    1: Not a chance it'd have any impact - there's still a two hour boat trip, no matter what you do rail-wise

    HS2 can get a passenger between London and Birmingham in 49 minutes. If a line between Birmingham and Hollyhead could be constructed and connections were well timed, that could be London-Dublin in 4 hours and arguably a nicer way to travel. Flying, including security queues and transferes to the city centre, means you couldn't really do the same journey by air in under 3:30 minutes(that's if you're fast). So yes I'd consider that to be competitive, the price is key though, especially since the UKs rail is privatised(and heavily subsidised, go figure).


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    #86
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    MYOB wrote: »
    Considering the competition there and the resulting pricing, and the huge amount that would need to be recouped for HSR, how on earth do you think it could be competitively priced in the first place? Take a look at pricing to London City right now for example.

    The capital costs of the infrastructure don't need to be recouped in ticket sales. High speed rail is an investment governments make into their economies. The benefits of high speed rail are agglomeration, carbon emission reduction, reduced road congestion, more money spent here than exported to oil barons etc.


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    #87
    darklighter
    Registered Users Posts: 483 ✭✭darklighter


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Obviously the town of hollyhead wouldn't be the target market. Dublin to London is the busiest international air route on Earth, a reliable sail and rail could well take a chunk out if the Ryanair monopoly

    Eh, 2nd busiest, about a million behind Hong Kong-Taiwan I believe


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    #88
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    monument wrote: »
    Err... Coca-Cola clam to be making a CO2 reduction by using trains over trucks. So do many companies in the UK.

    That's without switching to electric.

    You could save more CO2 by not drinking Coke in the first place!


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    #89
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    cgcsb wrote: »
    I don't know where you get your information from but modern cars and trucks are certainly less efficient than diesel locomotion both in terms of carbon emission and traffic congestion. And a switch to electric trains would certainly leave cars and trucks in the dust in the efficiency stakes.

    Modern locos yes, (maybe) we don't have them. Electric trains use fossil fuels too and what about the carbon footprint of building the infrastructure?


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    #90
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    darklighter wrote: »
    Eh, 2nd busiest, about a million behind Hong Kong-Taiwan I believe

    Don't both countries claim sovereignty over the other though? I suppose legally they are separate countries, but it's a bit grey, so yes let's say 2nd busiest.


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    #91
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    corktina wrote: »
    Modern locos yes, (maybe) we don't have them.

    No, a single occupant car driving from Dublin to Cork produces multiples more carbon emissions than a single passenger on a train doing same journey.
    corktina wrote: »
    Electric trains use fossil fuels too

    They use a % of fossil fuels and a %renewables(and nuclear in some countries). Fossil fuels being burned in a power plant for energy is again many times more efficient than fossil fules that are burned for energy in a combustion engine.

    corktina wrote: »
    and what about the carbon footprint of building the infrastructure?

    What about it? It'd be quickly offset by the passengers that'd switch from air travel(the most carbon intensive form of transport)


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