Fingal / North Dublin Transport Study

I sometimes play a thought experiment.

MN was essentially shelved in 2009. Suppose it had got the go-ahead then. It would have meant something like €500-€800m of expenditure per annum from 2010 to this year. That's a lot of money, in the region of 0.3%-0.5% of GDP, 1%-1.5% of all annual government spending, not have been so small as to be unnoticeable. It would have meant appreciable cuts in other government spending, say more social welfare cuts or more public service pay cuts or higher PAYE. All this would have taken place through one of the largest fiscal contractions ever undertaken by a government in a developed country. It would have received a lof of criticism on cost grounds. You would probably have slightly higher poverty levels now . The immediate economic benefits would have been low as well: the multiplier effect of the spending on the metro would have been small as a lot of the expertise and plant would have been imported.

On the other hand, by now you would have a metro ready to open. This would be completely transformative for anyone who commutes from within a 2.5km corridor leading from the city centre to Swords. It would make Ireland considerably more appealing for FDI - imagine foreign execs being whizzed into the city centre in <20 minutes. There would be a ready solution for Dublin's current rising rents. There is plenty of land available in close proximity to the MN corridor for large-scale development. The tunnels could be good for a century of use.

It's ironic that even though the economic recovery over the last 3 years has been led by Dublin, yet again the meagre capital spend is spread around the country. I know there are very good road safety reasons for all the spending on for example: Gort-Tuam, N11 to Arklow and Ballaghadereen bypass. But very soon Dublin's transport infrastructure is going to start creaking again and are only amenable to solutions that should have started half a decade ago.

It's interesting because if you take a country like Spain, poorer than Ireland by all accounts, it has excellent high speed and conventional rail, the cities all have metro and trams with 100% integrated ticketing needless to say. Every city and even large towns have bike schemes, there are good cycling facilities across the country and over the past 15 years they've spent mountains of money on water. Mainland Spain now has good quality water services across the mainland.

All this form a country that is traditionally seen as being dissorganised and frankly a bit backward. People there want good infrastructure, a lot more than they want endless welfare 'allowances', e.g. 'communion allowance', 'back to school allowance', 'fuel allowance', 'mobile phone allowance' etc.

Spain also has double the unemployment that we have with GDP growth and GDP per capita way behind Ireland.

cgcsb wrote: »

It's interesting because if you take a country like Spain, poorer than Ireland by all accounts, it has excellent high speed and conventional rail, the cities all have metro and trams with 100% integrated ticketing needless to say. Every city and even large towns have bike schemes, there are good cycling facilities across the country and over the past 15 years they've spent mountains of money on water. Mainland Spain now has good quality water services across the mainland.

All this form a country that is traditionally seen as being dissorganised and frankly a bit backward. People there want good infrastructure, a lot more than they want endless welfare 'allowances', e.g. 'communion allowance', 'back to school allowance', 'fuel allowance', 'mobile phone allowance' etc.

Spain also has double the unemployment that we have with GDP growth and GDP per capita way behind Ireland.

So all that infrastructure hasn't been so successful in Spain then.

Carawaystick wrote: »

So all that infrastructure hasn't been so successful in Spain then.

It's been very successful and has kept Spain moving despite the global financial crisis

Sam Russell wrote: »

But we have great motorways in the sticks.

A predominately rural political system that doesn't understand public transport. The vast majority of our TDs spring from rural Ireland. Its also fair to say that over the years, even Dublin based TDs originated from rural Ireland directly or indirectly via their families. The car was the first sign of success in Ireland. That continues to this day and hasn't changed. Public transport was lost on the donkey cart brigade that chose the car once they could afford it. The bus became the de facto public transport option as it yielded cheaper offerings in rural Ireland. That was post WW2. Subsequently the railways died and their death spread to Dublin as a rural dominated political system that had cars thought the Harcourt Street line was similar to the Cliften line and should close. Ya gotta remember that a Dublin surburban railway closed before the West Cork lines.:rolleyes:

The moral of the story is simple. Irelands political system came about when we only had one real city of any population. It had a very good tram system that was ripped up because apparently buses could do it better and cheaper. Not a problem in rural Ireland, but a ****ing big problem in a city that quite obviously would grow and grow in tandem with car ownership. It did and now we find ourselves here.

Historically roads dominate things because of our poltical system. I'm way off topic, but the Fingal thing will be dominated by what I have already mentioned, because the mentality hasn't changed and has become ingrained into our culture that it will never be an election issue.

cgcsb wrote: »

Also keep in mind the anglosphere means that our brightest have been exported for generation leaving the backwardsmen behind. Other countrieshad to keep their smarti pants people because learning another language was exponentially more difficult.

Good point, but to be honest I'd take crumbling infrastructure over an inability to engage with most of the world, in particular the business world any day of the week.

cgcsb wrote: »

Spain is perfectly capable of engaging with most of the world, in fact Spain is the the wealthiest state in the Spanish speaking world, and English is commonly understood in Spain.

I'm sorry but I beg to differ, out of all the 'developed' European nations, Spain has one of the worst grasps of English compared to Germany, Scandanavia, Switzerland etc.

Anyways this is going off topic.. to bring it back on topic I see that the government has found an extra €1.5Bn: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/tax-surge-adds-to-calls-for-more-spending-in-budget-1.2337979

hardy_buck wrote: »

government has found an extra €1.5Bn

Did someone say West on Track ?

...or turning more of the fields around the airport into lucrative (low quality) car parks.

A story in the Irish Times today:

There's nothing much new, save to say that a decision is imminent.

Minister for Transport Paschal Donohoe is close to deciding whether to approve plans for a rail line connecting central Dublin with the city’s airport.

The National Transport Authority (NTA) has drawn up a shortlist of six options, including a Luas line or a revamped version of the controversial Metro North plan, for connecting the city with the airport and north Dublin suburbs.

Mr Donohoe said yesterday he expected to decide on the overall capital plan “soon” but would not be drawn on a deadline. Any recommendation he makes would have to go to Cabinet first.

The NTA’s shortlist includes a connection from the Luas cross-city line, which is now being built, and an amended Metro North, both of which would involve tunnelling under parts of Dublin. Spurs from existing rail lines and rapid bus transit also feature on the list.

I'm very nervous about this the thoughts of a botched luas line to stop a km away from the airport or shortened metro platforms to save a few cents is just too much. I'd like to see no funding until next year if it means doing it properly.

what in gods name is their rush with this?! unless and it wouldnt surprise me, its all about votes in the upcoming election, even for the botch luas job. A lot of people in those areas would think Luas, great...

We have waited decades, are just coming out of the recession, it can wait another few years if there isnt the will or funding to do it right! It may be a hard political sell, starting MN and DU. Just get DU rolling before planning lapses...

This project is a harder sell and DU is straightforward. This route nowhere near as much, in terms of what is the best option, MN or heavy rail...

Best case might be the dart spur, at least its relatively cheap and from a political perspective, it would look like they are doing something... Worst case is luas, as it would knock MN or similar adequate solution, back decades potentially...

Another question.

Assume the Clongriffin spur was agreed by government tomorrow and funding is not an issue.

In the meantime you have (in no particular order): design (tricky in and around airport), EIS, railway order, planning application, inevitable planning appeals, CPOs, construction, testing, etc.

Is this something that could feasibly be in operation in under ten years?