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Suppression of free speech in Galway, Ireland

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    #92
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    If i were in a public place, on a public road speaking to a gard over a contentious issue, it woudn't surprise me. And i wouldn't believe i had some right to privacy not to be filmed/recorded.


    Yup so you don't really know anything about rights and the law, which just clarifies why you can't see the real reason behind the arrest.


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    #93
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    foreign wrote: »
    Nobody here is disputing the right to freedom of speech. Anybody can protest about whatever they want, abortion, animal testing, lisbon, the EU, the war in Afghanistan, etc. It only becomes an issue if there is a complaint received from a member of the public in which case the Gardai have to act on that complaint. The protesters will usually be directed to pack up and move on which they usually do. If not then then they are committing an offence under Section 8 of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994.
    But in the video the american's spoke to the gard to set the record straight.
    They said Tommy wasn't doing anything, and this guy (israeli guy) walking down the street starting shouting obscenities and making a scene.

    Have you forgotten that bit?


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    #94
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    conf101 wrote: »
    As for the abusive old man. Well it's clear from the video that he was being aggressive and antagonising towards Donnellan but we have no idea what happened in the lead up to that and unless anyone was there when it happened then anything else is just speculation.
    It's not just speculation because we have the statement the 2 americans were giving the guards that exonerate Tommy's version of events


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    #95
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    prinz wrote: »
    Yup so you don't really know anything about rights and the law, which just clarifies why you can't see the real reason behind the arrest.

    Next time i'm at a bank machine, or see a CTV camera i'll keep that in mind.
    If i kick up a fuss, make a load of noise can complain to the gards, will they remove that recording equipment?


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    #96
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    But in the video the american's spoke to the gard to set the record straight.
    They said Tommy wasn't doing anything, and this guy (israeli guy) walking down the street starting shouting obscenities and making a scene.
    Have you forgotten that bit?

    Everything the garda did was by the book, and perfectly within his remit to keep the peace. Why can't you just accept that? The onus is on the stall holder/ protestor not to engage in behaviour likely to result in a breach of the peace. He didn't.


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    #97
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    Next time i'm at a bank machine, or see a CTV camera i'll keep that in mind.
    If i kick up a fuss, make a load of noise can complain to the gards, will they remove that recording equipment?


    Do you normally give statements to the gardaí at an ATM machine? Where the video and audio of the conversation is being recorded by someone involved in the incident you are speaking to the garda about? As it happens nobody has the automatic right to film you like that without your permission, without the proper legal permits etc ( i.e. tv crews, film crews etc ). If I grab a videocam and start following you around all day without your permission how long would it be before you called the garda


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    #98
    Bogger77
    Registered Users Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭Bogger77


    Justind wrote: »
    Big style.

    Wonder if the PC used by this 'Boycott Israeli Goods' fella contains an Intel chip (now where in the world would that have been designed?) :rolleyes:
    Since most of the main telco's in Ireland use Israeli billing software, whoall of the "Boycott the Zionists" use for telephone, mobile and landline?


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    #99
    Foleyart
    Registered Users Posts: 263 ✭✭Foleyart


    Wee note on the bru ha ha, I passed the altercation in Galway on Saturday. The sound on the video makes it appear that Tommy is talking very loudly at people, it is just his proximity to the microphone. He wasnt shouting at anyone that I could hear. Complete overreaction by the guard though and badly handled to boot.Badly handled all round.


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    #100
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Wow. How did this one get to 7 pages?

    Man gives Garda guff, and gets arrested in a situation where he had it coming. Where is the big news? In any other country they'd have waded in for the cheek he was giving. Bet he wouldn't try it on with a policeman in the States, a Gendarme or member of the Carabinieri. Not that I condone how they respond. But even as a matter of courtesy this Garda acted in a civil manner and was entitled to some civility in response.

    I guess the real lesson here is that hopefully the speaker will understand that, if he got that thick about a Garda in Galway, maybe he understands a little more how both sides react and feel in the Middle East when homes and lives are on the line, for both communities...


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    #101
    kmick
    Registered Users Posts: 3,375 ✭✭✭kmick


    Hard to know who was in the wrong here because I was not there but if any Garda ever tells me to stop filming or taking pictures in a public place I wont be complying. Some things are worth going to court for and that for me is one of them. Its outrageous that the gardai feel they can order people to stop taking a record under any circumstances.


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    #102
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    If anyone seriously believes that Tommy was shouting obscenities or calling the israeli tourist a "murderer", then you need your head examined.
    Tommy has had that stall there for a number of years and i don't recall ever a fuss being made.
    You obviously aren't giving any credibility to the 2 yanks statements to the gard, that clearly said Tommy was doing absoluetly nothing.


    If i were in a public place, on a public road speaking to a gard over a contentious issue, it woudn't surprise me. And i wouldn't believe i had some right to privacy not to be filmed/recorded.

    Red, I've seen that lad on the couple of occasions that I've been in Galway and usually just pass on by. It's the same with protesters here in Dublin, I just walk on by I don't let them bother me.

    I do remember the American talking to the garda about what had happened. Obviously the garda listened to him and appeared to be writing into his notebook whenever the protester didn't have the camera at them. From what has happened the garda obviously didn't think what he had to say wasn't enough to save the protester from arrest.

    The garda is hardly going to make a wrongful arrest on camera, with a large crowd of on-lookers. If he was on shaky legal ground then he looked and sounded smart enough to walk away rather than risk a wrongful arrest and a date in the High Court. If the protester has a problem with his arrest then he should make a complaint to GSOC, a complaints body independant of the Gardai.

    Regarding the recording in the street, I should have clarified that it was the aspect of recording of the audio of the conversation which would have been an issue. It is a private conversation which shouldn't be recorded. I've no problem in the video aspect. He could have stayed back behind his table and videoed from there.


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    #103
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    kmick wrote: »
    Hard to know who was in the wrong here because I was not there but if any Garda ever tells me to stop filming or taking pictures in a public place I wont be complying. Some things are worth going to court for and that for me is one of them. Its outrageous that the gardai feel they can order people to stop taking a record under any circumstances.

    He wasn't arrested for recording in public, he was arrested for failing to comply with the direction of a member of the garda siochana. He commited an offence under section 7 of the public order act and was directed to leave under section 8 of the same act. He failed to comply and was arrested under section 24 of the act. The garda's only issue with the camera was when it was brought up to him when he was trying to have a conversation with the two complainants and the other witness. He asked him to move away on each occasion, not to stop filiming.


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    #104
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Tommy was peacefully distributing leaflets and collecting signatures when he was approached by a couple of elderly and angry Israeli tourists. The man took exception to the IFPAL placard which displays the incontrovertible message that the Israeli Occupying Forces killed some 300 children when they invaded Gaza last December and January, a figure that the Zionist tourist claimed was false..... having been subjected to abuse and intimidation by the Israelis.

    http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x362079
    Another man, who said that he was a Jewish theology professor from France, was also screaming that the posters were lies. The man behind the table had a video camera pointing at the screamers. He said only, Stop harassing me.
    The woman (who I later learned was married to an Israeli) went off and got a garda (cop).

    http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/suppression-of-free-speech-in-galway-ireland.html

    On a side note, even the people on one side here can't even get their story straight.


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    #105
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    kmick wrote: »
    Hard to know who was in the wrong here because I was not there but if any Garda ever tells me to stop filming or taking pictures in a public place I wont be complying. Some things are worth going to court for and that for me is one of them. Its outrageous that the gardai feel they can order people to stop taking a record under any circumstances.


    When you're in the bank dealing with a cashier and someone sticks a camera in your face you'll be ok with that would you? Or even walking down the street, someone is recording your conversation with a friend? It's all well and good condemning rules and regulations until you're the one who wants it enforced..


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    #106
    OldJay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 943 ✭✭✭OldJay


    Bogger77 wrote: »
    Since most of the main telco's in Ireland use Israeli billing software, who will the "Boycott the Zionists" use for telephone, mobile and landline?

    Dunno. I guess they mean 'Boycott Israeli Trade...except the ones we need' lol


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    #107
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    prinz wrote: »
    When you're in the bank dealing with a cashier and someone sticks a camera in your face you'll be ok with that would you? Or even walking down the street, someone is recording your conversation with a friend? It's all well and good condemning rules and regulations until you're the one who wants it enforced..

    Since when is the inside of a bank the same as a public road?


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    #108
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    cornbb wrote: »
    It seems to me like the pro-Palestine/cameraman guy was just hoping to get arrested as if it would make him some sort of martyr. He was hysterical, shoving a camera in everyone's face, looking for attention, and he got it.
    Agreed.

    =-=

    What is the law with filming Gardai, without their permission? Also, I wonder how the Garda viewed the guy trying to film him taking a statment off witnesses?


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    #109
    Bobeagleburger
    Registered Users Posts: 45,280 ✭✭✭✭Bobeagleburger


    If I'm doing shopping in town I'd rather mot listen to protesters tbh,no matter who they represent.


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    #110
    kmick
    Registered Users Posts: 3,375 ✭✭✭kmick


    prinz wrote: »
    When you're in the bank dealing with a cashier and someone sticks a camera in your face you'll be ok with that would you? Or even walking down the street, someone is recording your conversation with a friend? It's all well and good condemning rules and regulations until you're the one who wants it enforced..

    A bank is a private institution not a public area so I am not sure what you mean by that. I would not a have a problem with someone filming me in a public place. There is no rules or regulation which prohibits someone from filming or taking pictures in public as far as I know so how could I be condemning something that does not exist??


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    #111
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    Since when is the inside of a bank the same as a public road?


    Even on a public road you have the right not to be recorded :confused: You have the right to a conversation with someone, without a third party who has been explicitly asked to refrain from recording it, without it being recorded. Even on a public street. Even if he wasn't recording anything, you have the right to a private word with someone with some other prat listening in on a private conversation, yes, even on a public street.


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    #112
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    kmick wrote: »
    A bank is a private institution not a public area so I am not sure what you mean by that. I would not a have a problem with someone filming me in a public place. There is no rules or regulation which prohibits someone from filming or taking pictures in public as far as I know so how could I be condemning something that does not exist??

    Again, if someone wants to follow you with a videocam around Dublin while you're out shopping you think they have that right? :confused: And yes nobody has the right to record a Garda when they are dealing with a sensitive issue in the line of duty. He was repeatedly asked to move away and refrain. He didn't.


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    #113
    raindog.promo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,514 ✭✭✭raindog.promo


    rarnes1 wrote: »
    If I'm doing shopping in town I'd rather mot listen to protesters tbh,no matter who they represent.

    That doesn't mean they shouldn't have the right to protest an issue. Not that I'm saying you're saying that.

    There is the threat that without people protesting the events portrayed in First The Came can be repeated

    On the Galway incident, I think everyone could have handled the situation better on all sides.

    Is it legal or not to film police in the street?
    Can someone link to the legislation that makes it lawful/unlawful?


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    #114
    kmick
    Registered Users Posts: 3,375 ✭✭✭kmick


    prinz wrote: »
    Again, if someone wants to follow you with a videocam around Dublin while you're out shopping you think they have that right? :confused:.

    All I said was there is no law against it I am sorry if you are confused about that.
    prinz wrote: »
    And yes nobody has the right to record a Garda when they are dealing with a sensitive issue in the line of duty. He was repeatedly asked to move away and refrain. He didn't.

    He was arrested for breach of the peace not for filming.


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    #115
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    prinz wrote: »
    Even on a public road you have the right not to be recorded
    I don't think so prinz.
    Think about it, everytime RTE records the news outside the Oireachtas, or outside the High Court or even of Grafton St, they might film some members of the general public, and even pickup some of their conversations.
    If any of these people object or complain the the gards do you think the gards should get involved and shut them down?

    How do you think the paparazi can make a living if they can't record and publish pictures of people out and about in public?

    Nope, when you're in a public space, you, your image and the distance your voice carries, is FAIR GAME.
    Having said that, i have a feeling the gards have a sneaky little law for themselves which precludes any member of the public from filming them.


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    #116
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    kmick wrote: »
    All I said was there is no law against it I am sorry if you are confused about that.

    Actually there is.And no I am not confused.
    kmick wrote: »
    He was arrested for breach of the peace not for filming.

    Exactly, I never said he was. However he wouldn't have been arrested if he had listened to the garda and followed his instructions in the first place would he? The garda gave him plenty of opportunities.


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    #117
    Slydice
    Registered Users Posts: 10,501 ✭✭✭✭Slydice


    edit: I realise this post is off topic to the thread in full so I created an after hours thread on it. Sorry Mods
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2055667889
    end edit.
    PomBear wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ch9ORXw8ulw
    just watched this.

    can anyone else make out what is being said in the background between 2mins 25secs and 2mins 35secs?

    here's a link to jump to 2mins 25secs:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ch9ORXw8ulw#t=2m25

    so far I think it's

    woman: what is it danny, like?
    man: heh?
    woman: what is it?

    now this is where I get confused... I can't make out the start of what the man in the background replies but it ends with "of the ****ing jews"

    does he reply with "a high cat of the ****ing jews"?

    or is it "a high cap of the ****ing jews"?

    or is it something else? I just can't make it out

    edit: I realise this post is off topic to the thread in full so I created an after hours thread on it. Sorry Mods
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2055667889
    end edit.


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    #118
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    I don't think so prinz.
    Think about it, everytime RTE records the news outside the Oireachtas, or outside the High Court or even of Grafton St, they might film some members of the general public, and even pickup some of their conversations.
    If any of these people object or complain the the gards do you think the gards should get involved and shut them down?

    How do you think the paparazi can make a living if they can't record and publish pictures of people out and about in public?
    It would be interesting to here if someone has the definitive word on what you can and cannot do re recording people. My understanding is that the broadcast / print media must get your permission if they are to broadcast your image or alternatively make an argument that the public interest is served by so doing. Whatever about the law it is pretty rude to stick a camera in someones face especially if they ask you not to.


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    #119
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    I don't think so prinz.
    Think about it, everytime RTE records the news outside the Oireachtas, or outside the High Court or even of Grafton St, they might film some members of the general public, and even pickup some of their conversations.
    If any of these people object or complain the the gards do you think the gards should get involved and shut them down?
    How do you think the paparazi can make a living if they can't record and publish pictures of people out and about in public?

    If you go back about 4 pages you will find where I pointed out this was subject to various licenses etc which permit people to operate. TV, film crews, etc, usually these are governed by bye-laws etc in local authorities. If I wish to film a tv show in x public place, I would require the appropriate authorisation to film there.
    RedPlanet wrote: »
    Nope, when you're in a public space, you, your image and the distance your voice carries, is FAIR GAME.
    Having said that, i have a feeling the gards have a sneaky little law for themselves which precludes any member of the public from filming them.

    Er no it's not fair game. I have the right to talk to someone on the street without a thid party on the spot intentionally recording visual or audio of that without our permission.


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    #120
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    In my opinion the Video stinks! the guy with the camera was far too cocky, and with a big chip on his shoulder :mad: He was obviously asking for trouble - (camera conviently in hand), & with the verbals to match. In any other European country the guy would have ended up in the paddy wagon within mins of giving verbal grief to the Police!

    If you look at the set-up (sorry Video) you will notice that the camera guy has Giant Palestinian flags draped all over the walls behind him, with giant Anti-Israeli plackards, shouting to all & sundry To boycott all Israeli goods from all & any stores that sell goods that originate in Israel > for Christ sake "this guy was asking for trouble", and like a red rag to a bull two Jewish people understandably got annoyed & had a go at the camera toting idiot. And then the Northern guy achimes in at the end saying that he couldn't understand the Guards arresting "one of their own" :confused:

    Well done to the very young cop who kept his cool in the face of major provocatuion.


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    #121
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    prinz wrote: »
    Er no it's not fair game. I have the right to talk to someone on the street without a thid party on the spot intentionally recording visual or audio of that without our permission.
    I honestly don't think so.
    I think if you want to have a private conversation then a public space is not where you should be.


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