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Gay but not proud

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    #32
    nozipcode
    Registered Users Posts: 137 ✭✭nozipcode


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I think telling you seek counselling and all the rest of it is just patronising nonsense, the easy "go-to" default advice around here, or "join some gay clubs", or "get involved in gay culture". Load of nonsense. There's no easy and quick "fix" for you, you don't need "fixing", you are who you are, and it's just going to take time, and a hell of a lot of patience with yourself before you're able to get to a point where you're able to be comfortable with who you are, that you don't have to be even what you think you're expected to be, by yourself, or anyone else.


    How is advising to see a councillor patronising? You can talk about it on boards.ie or you could talk to a real person, about the same things. Councilling is great for certtain issues, and more useful than most give it credit for.


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    #33
    mr.anonymous
    Registered Users Posts: 481 ✭✭mr.anonymous


    Your propensity to find men attractive is different to but not less than heterosexuality. Repressing natural feeling for men over decades and through a marriage takes its toll. Suggesting that you go to counselling probably adds to feeling defective.

    A few years ago having a laugh with friends over being gay was a terrifying thought because it meant laughing at an insecurity. When it's out in the open, it's as normal as being slagged about anything else!

    You're a long way from that point OP, but I'd say there's a certain envy in seeing people who are comfortable with being gay. Some of us probably forget our struggle to accept this because once we accepted it and came out we realised there was no 'there' there.

    I think you have to be a bit selfish and do what's right for you. Be comfortable in yourself first and then you'll stop pinning your own insecurity on other lgbt people and saying that they're the problem.


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    #34
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,661 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    nozipcode wrote: »
    How is advising to see a councillor patronising? You can talk about it on boards.ie or you could talk to a real person, about the same things. Councilling is great for certtain issues, and more useful than most give it credit for.


    Do you not think it's something that more people would have considered already?

    Certainly at 36 years of age and having been married and now separated, I imagine it's something that the OP will have considered a long, long time before now, and dismissed the idea, because counselling as great and all as it is, isn't for everyone, which is why IMO the default suggestion of suggesting that someone seek counselling is IMO simply patronising.

    Why should anyone seek counselling if there isn't anything dysfunctional in their thinking? Last time I checked, ignorance wasn't classified as a mental disorder.


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    #35
    baby and crumble
    Registered Users Posts: 8,512 ✭✭✭baby and crumble


    Cassady23 wrote: »
    Baby and crumble. Apologies if you took umbrage at my comments. But... I will not take my words back. If a human being is born with a penis and testicles no amount of "there, there" will change that fact.
    Do you really think it's acceptable to raise a male child as female? Or vice versa?

    This isn't about my feelings about transgender individuals. This is about using language equating people with intellectual disabilities ("mentally challenged") to people who you believe are wrong and incapable of living their lives. That is incredibly ignorant.

    But to answer your question, I used to think like you. I used to think trans individuals were weird, and I didn't believe you could be born in a different gender, and I kinda thought they were wrong. Then I learned more about it, realised that it wasn't my place to have an opinion on it either way. Now, I am very aware of how gender is massively socially influenced. If someone's mental health can be significantly bettered by undergoing treatment and surgery then why is that a problem?


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    #36
    Gael23
    Registered Users Posts: 12,086 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    This may unintentionally sound harsh OP but I think you would benefit from seeing a psychotherapist/ counsellor.
    I worked alongside a lady on the Yes Equality campaign who does just this. Someone that specialises in LGBT issues may be able to help you come to terms with your sexuality in a better way.


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    #37
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,814 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    OP please do not make any more transphobic statements. This forum is a safe space for all LGBTQ people and transphobia is unacceptable. Everyone else please do not insult the OP any more and do not call him a troll anymore. Any suspected trolling ahould be dealt with by reporting posts.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #38
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Get professional help, your issues need more than some responses on a message board. Your self loathing is really sad, your no less a person for being gay. The life you had was the lie and I feel sad for yourself, your wife and kids. If only people didn't feel the need to deny who they are a lot of heartache would be avoided. I hope you can in time learn to accept and love yourself as you are and make the most of your life as a gay man and find happiness again.


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    #39
    Cassady23
    Registered Users Posts: 27 ✭Cassady23


    I am sincerely sorry for any hurt that my words have caused. It was unacceptable and I was quite rightly warned for this. I have read some very helpful words from many of the respondents to my post.
    I think the moral of all this should be "some people are different, but we all are capable of love, hate, fear, intolerance, acceptance, and, that makes us all the same."


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    #40
    Cold War Kid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,353 ✭✭✭Cold War Kid


    I don't think you're being that bad OP - just trying to figure out who you are and what your views are.

    To be as happy as you can be, you need to be happy with yourself - to accept yourself. If you are having difficulty doing so, perhaps it might be worth talking to a professional who is trained to help folks like yourself deal with things you're not sure of how to deal with.
    I think you seem like you will get there.


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    #41
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,814 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    The Gay Mens Health Service has free counselling and also runs a personal development course

    http://gayswitchboard.ie/personal-development-course/

    http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/5/sexhealth/gmhs/counselling/

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #42
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,814 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    I think OP those who have suggested counselling may be correct. It took me a long time to fully accept myself as gay and counselling did genuinely help. I can't agree with the suggestion that seeking counselling is patronsing nonsense. Some people genuinely need the support that counselling offers and others can get by in life just fine.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #43
    newacc2015
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭newacc2015


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I think OP those who have suggested counselling may be correct. It took me a long time to fully accept myself as gay and counselling did genuinely help. I can't agree with the suggestion that seeking counselling is patronsing nonsense. Some people genuinely need the support that counselling offers and others can get by in life just fine.

    Everyone needs counselling at some stage. I have yet to hear anyone who has gone to a counsellor and not gained a single thing. OP you will find a counselling service, who has a sliding scale and will accommodate your limited financial means. You may not admit you need to go, but I strongly recommend you do. Its very easy to brush off internal homophobia,as being "raised catholic" or I have "conservative values".


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    #44
    mattP
    Closed Accounts Posts: 255 ✭✭mattP


    I think just disambiguate it as best you can.
    You like guys. Try find the guy that makes you happiest. That's about all there is.
    The goal is to be happy. If you're happy you won't care about much else, your son will be happy for you, it'll all fall into place like it usually does.
    So what if a few guys are flamboyant - I admire how comfortable they are to be so open, although personally it isn't for me.
    We're all just doing our best in life, trying to make the most out of what we were given. I get a little weirded out thinking about trans people too being perfectly honest, but as a gay guy I know that feeling of persecution and judgement - which I wouldn't wish on anyone else - so I dont let my bias of sorts take root. Someone's sexual orientation or which gender they identify as is only one tiny piece of the person as a whole.


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    #45
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    I'm in the same situation OP. I've met a few gay men and most are not that stereotypical. I only accepted I might be gay 2 years ago (30 now) and Im not out as frankly I consider being gay to be deeply shameful both to my family and myself,

    I've been out recently with older groups of friends and it is amazing how much time is spent saying homophobic things. Simply the reality, these people are not particularly racist or bad just frank in their opinions, I guess straight people have major issues understanding gay people. It is difficult to accept being a part of a maligned minority and giving up 'straight male privilege'.

    This is entrenched in our culture, so I have an internal war culture and my life experience vs who I am. Not easy.


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    #46
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Thanks for your post, OP. As a conservative-ish gay guy, I have issues with how reductive the gay and straight labels can be. If "gay" simply means that I am attracted to other men, then yeah, I'm gay. If "gay" means I'm at the George on weekends and consider Panti Bliss my hero, then no, I'm not a very good gay, but I'm still not attracted to women. I have never set foot in a gay bar, attended a Pride march, or engaged in any of what you call "social justice warrior" activities! I have concerns about the Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner media saga too.

    There is no point in feeling disgusted by your desires. This can be self-destructive. Maybe you feel disgusted if/when you act upon them. However, you are not obliged to act upon them. Sex is not essential to a fulfilling relationship.

    Nor are you obliged to come out. All your child knows is that its father and mother no longer live together. Your child is not required to know whether its parents are gay/straight. Daddy is single again - that's all.

    Hope some of the above is helpful. :)


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    #47
    StonyIron
    Closed Accounts Posts: 409 ✭✭StonyIron


    OP: I think it's really important to realise that being gay is simply being attracted to members of the same gender.

    What unites us as a community is quite simply that we have to stand up for our rights as humans and demolish centuries of oppression. We support each other and create safe space really. That's fundamentally what the LGBT community & it's friends is all about when you strip it down to its basics.

    Many social groups, cultures and subcultures have grown up under that umbrella. You may not fit into all of them, like them or even feel remotely comfortable with all of them. However, the one thing to always remember though is the big, rainbow umbrella over the top of all that is about mutual respect.

    Gay venues popped up because they were safe havens for people who are different and who were persecuted very badly for those differences.

    You should try and get out and meet some gay people in non-stereotypical contexts. There are some great social groups. Try gay community resources and even meet up groups. The vast majority of us are shockingly boring! It's not all about drag queens and pop culture.

    Also, just remember that whether you're a rugby playing lumberjack or drag queen or anyone else, you're entitled to respect for who you are.

    Being conservative is fine, but just maybe open your mind a little bit to the diversity that's out there.

    Also you've nothing to be embarrassed or ashamed of. People can take a long time to figure out their sexual orientation. The main thing is that you make the most of it.

    I'm bisexual myself and definitely went through a phase of being very confused as I felt excluded from gay things as I wasn't quite gay enough and also felt excluded from straight thing because I wasn't straight.

    However, most of was me assuming people actually had prejudices that in reality they didn't have.

    You'll have all the same issues any divorcee has in terms of moving on, but please try to get some support from the very decent folks out there in the gay community and get some help with that aspect of your situation.

    There are more gay dads out there than you'd think and plenty of divorced men and women who figured out they're gay.

    My own take on it is that life is too short and too precious to spend your time worrying about what other people might think about you. So, just seize the day and be happy that you've a clearer understanding of your own sexuality and move on to the next phase of your life.


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    #48
    carlmango11
    Registered Users Posts: 1,019 ✭✭✭carlmango11


    Possibly oversimplifying but it sounds like OP is a victim of his own homophobia to me.


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    #49
    martinjudge73
    Registered Users Posts: 126 ✭✭martinjudge73


    Cassady23 wrote: »
    gay not proud

    43 year old Marriage guy here who is in the same situation. Married with 3 kids. As far as my sexuality goes if you were to line up 10 men or 10 women I would only be turned on by the line of men. However at an intimate level I prefer women.

    All the confusion caused a lot of depression. My suggestion is that you accept yourself warts and all and move on.

    For me my sexuality is a part of me, it does not define me. I am not out at all. I've been with 2 men a few years ago, nothing heavy or risky, But it caused a lot of issues for me internally.

    I had a terrible relationship with my father, a lot of physical abuse. And the men I would meet seemed to have some similar issues to a certain degree.

    Anyway about 6 years ago I turned my life around, Sexuality is not the be all and end all of my life. I focused 100% on my wife and kids and it has changed everything.

    Is the closet a good place to be?.. I don't know. What I would say is, be honest with people. Don't live a double life because it won't help.

    I quiet like my life now, I became more religious in the last number of years and somehow it helped centre me. I opened my horizons to other things in life. I accepted who I am and learned to give myself to my family, I became a better father, not perfect.

    Oh.. I also cut down a lot on alcohol and stopped smoking. I took up running, hiking etc.. That helped a lot.


    Lastly.. Be very very compassionate and understanding to gay people. Never hate them.


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    #50
    mattP
    Closed Accounts Posts: 255 ✭✭mattP


    martinjudge73 wrote:
    For me my sexuality is a part of me, it does not define me. I am not out at all. I've been with 2 men a few years ago, nothing heavy or risky, But it caused a lot of issues for me internally.
    Maybe it only caused so much issues as you were afraid it would disturb your comfortable "straight" life, and if you were out you would possibly feel much more at ease? It is true your sexuality does not define you - it would be foolish to brand you as "gay" and nothing else, but it still is a part of you, a part you should not be denying in my opinion.
    martinjudge73 wrote:
    Is the closet a good place to be?.. I don't know. What I would say is, be honest with people. Don't live a double life because it won't help.
    How can you tell him to be honest while you throw up a straight façade? No offence but I think youre too afraid to have a quiet moment to yourself and analyse the situation as it is -hence all your newfound hobbies and worshipping. Ultimately I know you love your children and your wife on some level, but if you are gay - (which im presuming, you didn't expressly state?) be gay. Its rather unfair on your wife(especially if you were with the two guys while married) and untrue to yourself. Just Google that Hirst rugby player I suppose and read his story if you haven't already.
    All just my view on the situation, sorry if it comes across in an offensive light but it wasnt intended as such.


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    #51
    martinjudge73
    Registered Users Posts: 126 ✭✭martinjudge73


    mattP wrote: »
    Maybe it only caused so much issues as you were afraid it would disturb your comfortable "straight" life, and if you were out you would possibly feel much more at ease? It is true your sexuality does not define you - it would be foolish to brand you as "gay" and nothing else, but it still is a part of you, a part you should not be denying in my opinion.


    How can you tell him to be honest while you throw up a straight façade? No offence but I think youre too afraid to have a quiet moment to yourself and analyse the situation as it is -hence all your newfound hobbies and worshipping. Ultimately I know you love your children and your wife on some level, but if you are gay - (which im presuming, you didn't expressly state?) be gay. Its rather unfair on your wife(especially if you were with the two guys while married) and untrue to yourself. Just Google that Hirst rugby player I suppose and read his story if you haven't already.
    All just my view on the situation, sorry if it comes across in an offensive light but it wasnt intended as such.


    I'm not doing anything wrong to anyone. I am not cheating on my wife.

    As regards Hirst.. well he dealt with it his way, his decision.

    As regards being untrue to myself, I don't think I am. I have accepted myself 100% and I am faithful.

    And yes I like my "straight" life as you put it. I know a lot of Straight married men who get damn all sex with their wives, however my wife and I enjoy it. I enjoy her company immensely.

    I'm am not out to judge anyone, I'm just telling you how I coped with my situation. Before I was married I went to a couple of gay bars.. it just wasn't for me. I know I'm gay, I just didn't like the scene.

    Anyway, I am not saying I am perfect and I take your points. But in the 168 hours of the week between work and kids I don't spend much time pondering my sexuality now,(it was a big issue in my late 20's).

    There is a guy at work who had a gay partner for 10 years, his partner died and the guy married a women and has kids now. I kind of envy him a bit because his wife knows the whole story and so does everyone at work.. I suppose if I could start over I would change things, but such is life.

    Anyway I have accepted myself. I am not cheating on my wife and I love my family and spend as much time as possible with them and we are happy. I'm no longer depressed. If as you are suggesting I should tell the world I fancy men what would it do for me now? How would it improve my life? I might be sexually attracted to men, but I have no intention of living with one, ever. I really love the company of women.


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    #52
    Nialler85
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭Nialler85


    If you are happy then that's all that matters. Why complicate things...

    That's all any of us want right? Well for me anyway, all I want is to be happy.


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    #53
    martinjudge73
    Registered Users Posts: 126 ✭✭martinjudge73


    Nialler85 wrote: »
    If you are happy then that's all that matters. Why complicate things...

    That's all any of us want right? Well for me anyway, all I want is to be happy.


    Exactly. I know a lot of straight men who really struggle with their sexuality, extramarital affairs, prostitutes ...

    Its not that I don't want to complicate things. Its just well I have 4 people in my life more important than me. So I decided to live for them instead of thinking of myself. Personally I found the only way to be happy is to make sure the everyone around you is happy. If you spend your time trying to make others happy that is the key in life.


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    #54
    Leonard Hofstadter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,540 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    martinjudge73 wrote: »
    I'm not doing anything wrong to anyone. I am not cheating on my wife.

    As regards Hirst.. well he dealt with it his way, his decision.

    As regards being untrue to myself, I don't think I am. I have accepted myself 100% and I am faithful.

    And yes I like my "straight" life as you put it. I know a lot of Straight married men who get damn all sex with their wives, however my wife and I enjoy it. I enjoy her company immensely.

    I'm am not out to judge anyone, I'm just telling you how I coped with my situation. Before I was married I went to a couple of gay bars.. it just wasn't for me. I know I'm gay, I just didn't like the scene.

    Anyway, I am not saying I am perfect and I take your points. But in the 168 hours of the week between work and kids I don't spend much time pondering my sexuality now,(it was a big issue in my late 20's).

    There is a guy at work who had a gay partner for 10 years, his partner died and the guy married a women and has kids now. I kind of envy him a bit because his wife knows the whole story and so does everyone at work.. I suppose if I could start over I would change things, but such is life.

    Anyway I have accepted myself. I am not cheating on my wife and I love my family and spend as much time as possible with them and we are happy. I'm no longer depressed. If as you are suggesting I should tell the world I fancy men what would it do for me now? How would it improve my life? I might be sexually attracted to men, but I have no intention of living with one, ever. I really love the company of women.

    It sounds to me more like you're either bisexual (i.e. attracted to both genders) or pansexual (attracted to people rather than genders) than gay based on what you've said. The other guy you mentioned also sounds like he's bi - and again nothing wrong with that despite what some biphobic people say.

    Anyway, not wishing to judge or criticise you in any way, but just thought I'd mentioned it.


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    #55
    martinjudge73
    Registered Users Posts: 126 ✭✭martinjudge73


    captainspeed wrote: »
    It sounds to me more like you're either bisexual (i.e. attracted to both genders) or pansexual (attracted to people rather than genders) than gay based on what you've said. The other guy you mentioned also sounds like he's bi - and again nothing wrong with that despite what some biphobic people say.

    Anyway, not wishing to judge or criticise you in any way, but just thought I'd mentioned it.

    Bisexual, pansexual, ... so you see why I hate labels.. Does it really matter in the long run what I am? Its not who you have sex with that defines as person or who you are attracted to. the old I get, the happier I am that I didn't come out. I prefer to be me without labels.


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    #56
    wayword16
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭wayword16


    Unfortunately we don't get to choose who we are attracted to or what our sexual preferances are. Though we can choose to accept and embrace who we are or we can deny and wallow in self pity. I was afraid and struggled with my sexuality for yrs. I was afraid of what other people would think or say. I'm a very masculine bloke of 40 . I was captain in my local GAA Team while growing up. We had no education on sexuality when we were growing up. It seemed all Gays were effeminate so i couldn't possibly be gay. Gay community is very diverse. We come in all shapes and sizes,masculine or camp. There are lots of mothers and fathers who have come out later in life and there are support groups out there. Try and give yourself a break and at the end of the day it's no ones buisness who we sleep with.


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    #57
    Whizzzy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19 ✭Whizzzy


    martinjudge73 wrote: »
    Exactly. I know a lot of straight men who really struggle with their sexuality, extramarital affairs, prostitutes ...

    Its not that I don't want to complicate things. Its just well I have 4 people in my life more important than me. So I decided to live for them instead of thinking of myself. Personally I found the only way to be happy is to make sure the everyone around you is happy. If you spend your time trying to make others happy that is the key in life.

    I'm older than you. We've been together for 25 years, married for 15 of those.

    To be honest, I'm confused. She says that the sex is great - but she was a virgin when I met her. (She's a bit younger than me.)

    If I said I like beautiful things (male and female) would that make any sense?

    If I said that if I browsed the top shelf in a newsagent, I'd only want to look at tasteful girlie mags, would that make any sense?

    I see sexuality as a spectrum. I feel I'm close enough to the middle (bisexual?) to "peer over the wall", but I feel I only want to do it with women. I am no priapic alpha-male. I couldn't "get up on a bicycle", to coin one of the milder expressions, in a moment of desperation.

    I've only had one experience with a man - when I was a kid.

    If I said I have the self-esteem of a (insert whatever), would that sound familiar? I think I have a mild heterosexuality that I want to exercise, but I don't have the confidence in myself to do so. This has roots in my performance in school, college etc.....

    Sound familiar?

    This has caused a lot of depression. But, the sex in between times has been great - but, like I say, I'm not being compared with anyone else. Sound familiar?

    I almost feel that if we had kids (we don't - we can't, that's another of my issues coz I'm the one who can't) we would no longer be married.

    But, maybe sexuality is more complex than I think.

    As you can see, I'm in a bit of a spin.

    D.

    Ps. Great thread.


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    #58
    CdeC
    Registered Users Posts: 510 ✭✭✭CdeC


    OP go and talk to someone.

    I was self loathing but not anymore. you've been fed all this bull for years that being gay is wrong.
    The disgust you feel. do you think that is rational?

    It is not. you don't have to care about celebrity or gay lifestyle but you need to accept yourself and who you are.
    I do sympathize with you but we are now in 2016 and all the tools and support networks are in place for you to get over this brain washing that you have undergone. There is nothing wrong with being gay. you need to convince yourself of that. Then you need to accept yourself as a gay man. Only after that can you truly start to heal yourself.

    We have all been through this. I am exactly the same age as you. I grew up playing Rugby in a really manly environment in the 90's. Ireland has changed so much since then. take control of your mind and go and see a counselor. talk out these issues. But first you need to believe that

    "there is nothing wrong with being gay"


    The marriage referendum for me was a life changing moment for me. Whatever is going on in the world we are still entitled to our human rights.


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    #59
    J_E
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,734 ✭✭✭J_E


    I think your own perception of what gay is can really define how you feel about your own sexuality. Everyone has a different idea of what this entails. Past the core that you happen to be attracted to the same sex, you need to live by what being gay means to you. Trying to compare to other's experiences and then develop a bitterness through their own actions does nothing to make you comfortable with who you are. Nobody thinks being gay is just showboating, sassy actions, or effeminacy. That is just one facet of human expression, not the 'rule' of being gay.


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    #60
    learn_more
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭learn_more


    The OP is a very clever troll playing the 'and I'm just a normal person with these views' card. The suckers here to say he isn't are going along with it because they agree or sympathise to an extent what he is saying. This person is VERY in tune with gay politics, way more so than myself even as a gay person and it just doesn't ring true that he'd be so self-loathing and totally abreast of the latest gay politics at the same time. This guy or gal is out and out gay racist of the highest order and if your listening you can be assured that people like you and your views are on the way out and you can't do anything about it.


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    #61
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    learn_more wrote: »
    The OP is a very clever troll playing the 'and I'm just a normal person with these views' card. The suckers here to say he isn't are going along with it because they agree or sympathise to an extent what he is saying. This person is VERY in tune with gay politics, way more so than myself even as a gay person and it just doesn't ring true that he'd be so self-loathing and totally abreast of the latest gay politics at the same time. This guy or gal is out and out gay racist of the highest order and if your listening you can be assured that people like you and your views are on the way out and you can't do anything about it.

    Not sure about the OP but religious types have organized on social media and troll forums like this to try to "subtly" undermine LGBT people. They are really obvious if you think about their posts: "I'm gay but...."


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