New Children's Hospital at Mater site

Amtmann · 30-10-2010 2:18am #1

There's an opinion piece in today's paper that's useful to get a thread on this rolling here:

OPINION: Populist fixation on parking and access at the Mater site misses out on its clinical merits, writes KARL ANDERSON

THE PUBLIC debates that frequently surround healthcare decisions in this country are important but they can strangle progress.

In the past they have forced important decisions to be shelved or watered down to the point where the right decision is traded for what is acceptable to those who are most vocal. Think Hanly 2003.

We must not allow this to happen to one of the most important and exciting healthcare projects this country has ever embarked on: the new national children’s hospital.

Dr David Vaughan, consultant general and respiratory paediatrician, reminded us last week that the expert who many years ago suggested rationalising cancer services in the midlands needed a Garda escort, such was the level of public objection to his proposal. Ultimately the desire for consensus and compromise prevailed ahead of quality. It took the unfortunate cancer misdiagnosis in the midlands that came to light in 2007 for us to accept that if we want quality we have to compromise convenience and if we want convenience we have to compromise quality. We all can’t have both.

While the contributors to the current debate on the location for the new children’s hospital are well-intentioned, what is absent since the Eccles Street site was selected in 2006 is a viable alternative. Why? Because there is none.

The current objections can be distilled down to access and parking. It shouldn’t be so. There were no public debates on the construction of the new Mater hospital, which is now reaching skyward, on the basis of access or parking.

Nobody has ever said that Temple Street children’s hospital should be moved because of the access or parking problems. Access and parking did not deter the sale in 2007 of a majority share in the Mater Private Hospital on Eccles Street, which valued it at €350 million.

Access and parking have emerged as the key objections because they are communicable – while the clinical merits of tri-location are difficult to communicate yet are far more important.

Last week, I spoke to parents from Limerick, Clare and Waterford who attend Temple Street hospital regularly and parking and access issues are simply irrelevant to them in the scheme of things.

Worryingly, what has emerged through this debate is an Abes (Anywhere But Eccles Street) movement, confirmed by the array of alternatives being put forward.

Some suggest that the existing three hospitals should remain in place. That would be a tragedy. The facilities at Our Lady’s children’s hospital, Crumlin and Temple Street are desperately outdated and beyond improvement.

Because paediatric expertise and facilities are spread across three locations, they are not as efficient as they could be and, as a result, children are waiting longer for treatment than they should, given the €200 million-plus invested each year.

Keeping three hospitals operating independently of each other a few miles apart when there is, for the first time, an unequivocal Government commitment to build one of the best children’s hospitals in the world is impossible to justify.

Breda O’Brien (The Irish Times, October 23rd) opined that it would make more sense to locate the new hospital on a greenfield site along with a maternity hospital, and build an adult facility later.

However, she is silent on the fact that Dublin does not need another adult hospital and does not suggest which one should close. It is unrealistic to suggest we could have a tri-located facility (paediatric, adult and maternity) on a greenfield site. It is simply not going to happen in our lifetimes.

Dr Róisín Healy, a leading figure in the New Children’s Hospital Alliance, does not believe the hospital should be built on Eccles Street but does not have a view on where it should be built. Dr Healy is willing to take her case to Europe to stop the planned hospital being built.

Dr Finn Breathnach, one of the leading advocates for the new hospital to be built on an alternative site close to the M50, presented a new option on Joe Duffy’s Liveline show last week (October 18th).

When questioned about the fact that, under his preferred option, there would be no children’s hospital on the north side of Dublin, Dr Breathnach said a solution would be to move Temple Street hospital to the Mater.

Clearly with this two-hospital approach the status quo could be maintained. It would mean that Crumlin’s position as Ireland’s largest paediatric hospital would be secure; it would remain independent and continue to have the largest budget (€125 million in 2010).

This suggestion is, however, diametrically at odds with the undisputed finding of the McKinsey report, with which all three children’s hospitals agreed: because of the small size of our population, to provide quality paediatric care we should have only one national children’s hospital (national tertiary and local secondary).

The new paediatric hospital debate must be about the quality of care that a tri-located hospital (children, adult and maternity) can provide, the calibre of clinical staff it can attract and the ground-breaking cures its combined research facility could unearth. It should not be about access and parking.

If the need for consensus and compromise is again put ahead of quality, we will repeat the mistakes of the past.

The unacceptable status quo will remain. Our political leaders will invest their energy in alternative projects that attract less controversy but are equally worthy.

If the prospect of a new children’s hospital becomes a distant memory smothered in reviews and endless circular debates (which it will because there is no perfect location), those who are most vocal against the current plan will be silent. Those who are actually responsible for providing services will be held accountable.

Karl Anderson is a former chairman of the New Crumlin Hospital Group (2002-2005) and former adviser to former chief executive of the Health Service Executive Prof Brendan Drumm

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/1030/1224282315052.html

Pete_Cavan · 30-10-2010 2:17pm

The last paragraph of the article says it all really.

SeanW · 31-10-2010 12:52pm

I tend to agree with some of the negativity and feel that the current site is a mistake.

The only benefit I can see to the proposed Mater site for the NCH is that it will be served by Metro North, if that project goes ahead.

As I understand it, a good NATIONAL children's hospital will have not only enough parking for parents who will driving from all over the country, but on-site accommodation for parents who are staying at/near their children's bedside.

The proposed NCH at the Mater, due to the fact that will be a new children's hospital shoe-horned into a small space, will have neither. Ergo, the site is inappropriate, and will result in a second rate solution.

I tend towards the view that the hospital should instead be built on a greenfield site, along the proposed Metro North alignment for easy access from the City, while ideally being close to main road links for those who must drive in. And that it should be built on such a site with all the desirable facilities.

jd · 31-10-2010 2:16pm

From what I can gather, the issue with a green field site is that it would mean it wouldn't be co-located with a major teaching hospital giving access to specialised clinical staff when necessary.

Tragedy · 31-10-2010 3:15pm

Look at the clinicians who oppose the NCH at the Mater. The vast majority(if not all) of Paediatric Consultants are against the Mater site. You had the most respected childrens Doctors in Ireland coming out and uniting against the NCH (http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfcwgbgbqley/rss2/ for example).

Staff, experts and patients don't want the NCH site. The only people who do are HSE 'Experts'.

The matter is even more complex because Prof Drumm worked in Crumlin until last summer and was a leading advocate for its redevelopment as well as the overall re-organisation of children's hospital services. His €180,000-a-year press adviser, Karl Anderson, was also one of the founders of the parents' group which formed to lobby for the re-building of Crumlin.

Karl Anderson became a special advisor to Drumm when he became head of the HSE and has so far received €1million since 2005.

Take the article with a huge grain of salt, it's an 'opinion' piece from Drumm's Press Adviser.

Tragedy · 31-10-2010 3:18pm

SeanW wrote: »

The proposed NCH at the Mater, due to the fact that will be a new children's hospital shoe-horned into a small space, will have neither. Ergo, the site is inappropriate, and will result in a second rate solution.

I tend towards the view that the hospital should instead be built on a greenfield site, along the proposed Metro North alignment for easy access from the City, while ideally being close to main road links for those who must drive in. And that it should be built on such a site with all the desirable facilities.

SDCC have a huge amount of land available less than 10minutes walk from Tallaght Hospital and 5minutes from the Cookstown Luas stop. Would have better access to M50/N7/N4(i.e. majority of ireland's population) than somewhere along the proposed Metro North.

mgmt · 31-10-2010 3:38pm

Plenty of land available around Blanchardstown Hospital too. Beside M50, M3, rail. NAC closeby for the kids too.

paddydriver · 31-10-2010 3:49pm

jd wrote: »

From what I can gather, the issue with a green field site is that it would mean it wouldn't be co-located with a major teaching hospital giving access to specialised clinical staff when necessary.

This is BS political spin... Can you honestly say that if a child is critically ill in Crumlin they have to wait a few hours more whilst the "specialized clinical" staff make their way through traffic from another hospital? - doesn't happen. The whole idea of a dedicated childrens hospital is that you have specialized doctors/clinicians for children.

The Mater site is a mistake - it was a decision made back in Bertie's day and FF don't have the balls to change it, neither does Harney...

I do occasional work in that area at the Mater Private and there are times I have driven in circles for half an hour to find parking - and at that I am likely 10-15 mins walk away. It is one of the countries worst traffic/parking black spot's and digging a great big hole in the ground the park the cars is not going to get them in to the area any faster. As I heard someone point out on radio recently too - what happens on the day that someone needs to get their very sick child to the hospital quickly... and its All Ireland day in Croke Park... forget it!

I agree that the naysayers will have nothing constructive to say if it does now happen, and someone will have to take the wrap for it... well, probably not cause politicians don't do accountability.

Someone needs to take the ballsy decision and move this to a better site that is more accessible for all - and won't cost €3.00 an hour to park in!

Paddy

jd · 31-10-2010 4:37pm

paddydriver wrote: »

This is BS political spin... Can you honestly say that if a child is critically ill in Crumlin they have to wait a few hours more whilst the "specialized clinical" staff make their way through traffic from another hospital? - doesn't happen. The whole idea of a dedicated childrens hospital is that you have specialized doctors/clinicians for children.
Paddy

I think the argument being made was the level of expertise in different specialities that would be available if located near a large teaching hospital.

There is an interesting article here - according to this article the McKinsey Report in 2006 identified the following criteria to be used by the HSE in hospital location/design

1. Space. The new hospital should be able to accommodate all projected needs, including research and education facilities.

2. Breadth and depth of services. The hospital should be able to provide at least 25 sub-specialities

Medical – Anaesthetics, Cardiology, Endocrinology, General Medicine, Genetics, Haematology, Immunology, Infectious Diseases, Intensive care, Neonatology, Nephrology, Neurology, Oncology, Opthamology, Pathology,
Radiology, Respiratory +/- allergology, Rheumatology, Microbiology and clinical chemistry;

Surgical – Cardiothoracic , ENT , Gastroenterology/GI/ hepatobiliary surgery, General surgery, Neurosurgery,
Orthopaedic surgery, Transplant surgery, Urology

In addition, it should be able to provide family space including schools not only for the patients, but also their broithers and sisters. there should be separate single rooms for siblings and for parents.

3. Co-location. The new hospital would ideally share a site with a teaching hospital capable of providing the sub-specialities listed in paragraph 2. If the hospital is not co-located, there would need to be specific measures to address the separation from adult services.

4. Access. Good public transport and road links required. Parking for families and staff. Good family accommodation. Outreach programme to other hospitals.

5. Efficient use of resources

6. Attracting and retaining staff of high calibre.

7. Teaching and research

8. Financial stability

9. Full project plan and role assessments.

michael999999 · 31-10-2010 4:51pm

my child has to attend crumlin 7-8 times a year at least,we travel from kerry.sometimes its only for check ups but a lot of the time he can be very sick.

the thoughts of him in the back of a car all the way from kerry and then having to crawl through city traffic is actually quiet worrying.

the argument that it should be at the mater because it will be linked to the metro and the luas is bull,as no parent will bring a sick child on public transport.

none of the nurses think the mater is a good idea,especially for parents travelling from the south.can we please listen to the people on the ground who will be asked to work there.

if its left to fianna fail it will be a disaster of epic porportions.this is all about looking after berties back yard.it will be interesting to see who will get the contract for building it.a lot of questions need to be asked as to why they want it to be built at the mater,and who will benefit from it.

Tragedy · 31-10-2010 6:53pm

jd wrote: »

I think the argument being made was the level of expertise in different specialities that would be available if located near a large teaching hospital.

There is an interesting article here - according to this article the McKinsey Report in 2006 identified the following criteria to be used by the HSE in hospital location/design

The only specialities that Crumlin alone don't have are
hepatobiliary surgery / Transplant surgery / allergology / Clinical Chemistry off the top of my head.

The rest they have specialist consultants and CNS's for already.

It's weird that Crumlins been doing a brilliant job with limited resources and without co-location for the last 54 years.

mgmt · 31-10-2010 7:07pm

Tragedy wrote: »

The only specialities that Crumlin alone don't have are
hepatobiliary surgery / Transplant surgery / allergology / Clinical Chemistry off the top of my head.

The rest they have specialist consultants and CNS's for already.

It's weird that Crumlins been doing a brilliant job with limited resources and without co-location for the last 54 years.

Someone in the HSE needed a job.

Pete_Cavan · 31-10-2010 10:22pm

Tragedy wrote: »

It's weird that Crumlins been doing a brilliant job with limited resources and without co-location for the last 54 years.

The whole point of having one National Childrens Hospital is that there will be huge savings in operational costs by having one hospital instead of three. That means we will be able to deliver a better service for less money. I hope you are not suggestion that the current situation is good enough. The location of the new hospital is debatable, the need for it is not.

LeinsterDub · 31-10-2010 11:26pm

michael999999 wrote: »

my child has to attend crumlin 7-8 times a year at least,we travel from kerry.sometimes its only for check ups but a lot of the time he can be very sick.

the thoughts of him in the back of a car all the way from kerry and then having to crawl through city traffic is actually quiet worrying.

the argument that it should be at the mater because it will be linked to the metro and the luas is bull,as no parent will bring a sick child on public transport.

none of the nurses think the mater is a good idea,especially for parents travelling from the south.can we please listen to the people on the ground who will be asked to work there.

if its left to fianna fail it will be a disaster of epic porportions.this is all about looking after berties back yard.it will be interesting to see who will get the contract for building it.a lot of questions need to be asked as to why they want it to be built at the mater,and who will benefit from it.

The distance from M50 to crumlin and M50 to phibsborough is about the same.

Tragedy · 01-11-2010 4:59pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The whole point of having one National Childrens Hospital is that there will be huge savings in operational costs by having one hospital instead of three. That means we will be able to deliver a better service for less money. I hope you are not suggestion that the current situation is good enough. The location of the new hospital is debatable, the need for it is not.

Good work on completely taking something out of context. I pointed out that Crumlin hasn't seem to have suffered without co-location with an Adult Teaching Hospital, I don't recall ever saying "Let's keep all three as they are".
Can you point out where I said or implied that?

Thanks!

A couple of more quotes for people:

one of the experts consulted by the Task Force told us that he was not consulted on location and added that Dublin’s three children’s hospitals together are large enough to stand alone. Prof Alan Craft, past president of the Royal College of Paediatrics, said his “extensive consultation” had been a telephone conversation with a member of the Task Force. He had not seen its report nor was he involved in making the decision about the site

[quote=BARRY O’DONNELL, Retired Professor of Paediatric
Surgery RCSI,
]Many people outside the paediatric field feel that there is strong
case for co-location with an adult hospital. It seems logical, but it
doesn’t work like that. As has been shown again and again the co-location has no tangible advantages for a large paediatric hospital. Those of us who trained in, worked in and visited standalone units all over the world will testify to that. There is, however, a strong case for crossover collaboration in research. But there is no plan for transferring the Children’s Research Centre at Our Lady’s Children’s Hospital, (founded 1965) which has been so highly successful and is now a minor part of the national fabric, to the Mater site. There is certainly no room for it there.

...

As for building on the six-hectare (15-acre) Crumlin site, the Boston
Children’s (arguably the worlds number one) was built on the site of the
old hospital’s car park, (I was twice visiting professor there) while the
hospital continued working. The builders of Our Lady’s, Crumlin say that
they could put up a building with all the modern requirements on that site without disturbing the work of the existing hospital. It would cost
something over €100 million . . . a saving of €600 million. However, it
looks as though the political Faustian pact will prevail.[/quote]

Pete_Cavan · 01-11-2010 7:56pm

Tragedy wrote: »

Good work on completely taking something out of context. I pointed out that Crumlin hasn't seem to have suffered without co-location with an Adult Teaching Hospital, I don't recall ever saying "Let's keep all three as they are".
Can you point out where I said or implied that?

Thanks!

The line "It's weird that Crumlins been doing a brilliant job with limited resources and without co-location for the last 54 years." seems to suggest you are against co-location. That is my reading of it anyway. If you are so offended by being taken out of context I apologise but you should make it clear what you mean because there is ambiguity in our initial post. You should be more careful when typing posts and do not type as you would speak. A large part of spoken communication is non-verbal, it is also aural (pitch, tone, etc.) and visual (body language). If you simply post what you would say to someone you leave yourself open to misinterpretation, because those of us reading your post do not have these aural and visual aids.

BrianD · 01-11-2010 8:00pm

Wil Crumlin and Temple St. be closed when the new hospital opens? Or is there a phasing out?

Tragedy · 01-11-2010 8:17pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The line "It's weird that Crumlins been doing a brilliant job with limited resources and without co-location for the last 54 years." seems to suggest you are against co-location. That is my reading of it anyway. If you are so offended by being taken out of context I apologise but you should make it clear what you mean because there is ambiguity in our initial post. You should be more careful when typing posts and do not type as you would speak. A large part of spoken communication is non-verbal, it is also aural (pitch, tone, etc.) and visual (body language). If you simply post what you would say to someone you leave yourself open to misinterpretation, because those of us reading your post do not have these aural and visual aids.

I was replying to someone posting(that's why I quoted someone) that the NCH had to be co-located with a teaching hospital, pointing out that Crumlin already had almost every paediatric speciality catered for without Adult Hospital Co-Location

What is ambiguous about this? What is lacking context?

My language and post were fine, your interpretation was just off the wall despite you writing a paragraph on how verbal and written communication differ.

BrianD wrote: »

Wil Crumlin and Temple St. be closed when the new hospital opens? Or is there a phasing out?

As far as I know, Temple St+Crumlin will close completely, Tallaght will have an 'Ambulatory Care Centre' open until 10pm at night.

Pete_Cavan · 01-11-2010 8:57pm

Tragedy wrote: »

I was replying to someone posting(that's why I quoted someone) that the NCH had to be co-located with a teaching hospital, pointing out that Crumlin already had almost every paediatric speciality catered for without Adult Hospital Co-Location

What is ambiguous about this?

Well if you had said "It's weird that Crumlins been doing a brilliant job without Adult Hospital co-location" it would have been clear what you meant. Simply saying "Crumlins been doing a brilliant job without co-location" could be taken to mean you are opposed to the existing three childrens hospitals being co-located on one site, which is what I took it to mean. So yes, there is ambiguity in our original post. Anyway, I have already said that I apologise for taking you out of context. You are free to have the last word on this if you want but it is off-topic so I am going to leave it.

Chris_5339762 · 01-11-2010 9:10pm

Very very few Irish hospitals have anything like enough parking. The thought of putting this at the Mater is utterly daft. It should be in Tallaght next to all the road transport links. I cant concieve why anyone thinks bringing a sick child on public transport of any sort is a good idea.

ALL hospitals should be exempt from this green/public transport nonsense and given enormous carparks, be they underground or multi-storey. The kind of parking craziness that goes on at James', Cork, Beaumont, Galway and the Mater is an absolute shambles.

Pete_Cavan · 01-11-2010 9:50pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Very very few Irish hospitals have anything like enough parking. The thought of putting this at the Mater is utterly daft. It should be in Tallaght next to all the road transport links. I cant concieve why anyone thinks bringing a sick child on public transport of any sort is a good idea.

ALL hospitals should be exempt from this green/public transport nonsense and given enormous carparks, be they underground or multi-storey. The kind of parking craziness that goes on at James', Cork, Beaumont, Galway and the Mater is an absolute shambles.

The plan for the NCH at the Mater include 1,000 carparking spaces (which will be free for long term patients), I think that meets your criteria for an "enormous carpark". Locating a hospital beside public transport allows staff to travel to work without their cars, meaning patients are not competing with staff for parking spaces. Also, not having public transport would mean every patient would have to be driven to the hospital which reduces the number of available parking spaces unnecessarily. There will be plenty of children travelling to the hospital for checkups etc. who would be fit to use public transport. I am not saying Mater site is the answer but whatever site is chosen it absolutely must have good public transport links.

LeinsterDub · 02-11-2010 1:26am

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

The thought of putting this at the Mater is utterly daft. It should be in Tallaght next to all the road transport links. I cant concieve why anyone thinks bringing a sick child on public transport of any sort is a good idea.
.

Unless your talking about building it right beside the Tallaght M50 interchange there is not much between Phibsborough and Tallaght.

Some parents can not afford the option of driving it would be nice for them to be able to get to the hospital on decent transport

ForiegnNational · 02-11-2010 3:48pm

People are missing the point with parking and space requirements...

I had to spend a lot of time with my son in Crumlin for open heart surgery a couple of years ago. We live in West Cork, not the other end of a Luas or phantom Metro North line. What we needed was the ability to stay with our son throughout this time.

At Crumlin they have two on-site options (in the room with the child for a single parent) or at the end of the ward for multiple parents. Separately, for families there is both the Ronald McDonald house or the Late Late Show house (which my family used whilst I stayed with my son).

The earlier quote summed it up brilliantly for a minimum requirements "it should be able to provide family space including schools not only for the patients, but also their broithers and sisters. there should be separate single rooms for siblings and for parents."

This is a child's hospital, not an adult. You can't simply dump them there and leave. Small children need not only clinical but family help through this experience. Any option that means parents are not within feet of the child throughout this time will be an absolute disaster.

This is my experience from my time, others may disagree, but how many of them have actually gone through this experience?

Cool Mo D · 02-11-2010 3:56pm

ForiegnNational wrote: »

People are missing the point with parking and space requirements...

I had to spend a lot of time with my son in Crumlin for open heart surgery a couple of years ago. We live in West Cork, not the other end of a Luas or phantom Metro North line. What we needed was the ability to stay with our son throughout this time.

At Crumlin they have two on-site options (in the room with the child for a single parent) or at the end of the ward for multiple parents. Separately, for families there is both the Ronald McDonald house or the Late Late Show house (which my family used whilst I stayed with my son).

The earlier quote summed it up brilliantly for a minimum requirements "it should be able to provide family space including schools not only for the patients, but also their broithers and sisters. there should be separate single rooms for siblings and for parents."

This is a child's hospital, not an adult. You can't simply dump them there and leave. Small children need not only clinical but family help through this experience. Any option that means parents are not within feet of the child throughout this time will be an absolute disaster.

This is my experience from my time, others may disagree, but how many of them have actually gone through this experience?

But they are going to have similar facilities in the new children's hospital.

ForiegnNational · 02-11-2010 4:20pm

Cool Mo D wrote: »

But they are going to have similar facilities in the new children's hospital.

I like to see a little bit more definite response from Ronald McDonald House Charities Ireland before I am convinced this will be available:

The New National Children’s Hospital is due to open in 2015 at The Mater. We are working closely with the Board of The New Hospital with a view to providing a Ronald McDonald House for families whose children will require hospitalisation for extended periods.

Cool Mo D · 02-11-2010 4:36pm

They definitely will have shared parent-child rooms.

ForiegnNational · 02-11-2010 4:44pm

Cool Mo D wrote: »

They definitely will have shared parent-child rooms.

and for families?

I am not having a pop at you Cool Mo D, I just don't like the fact that so much is yet undecided that is the issue.

I am not Anti-Mater (leave it trekky fans), I am just speaking from experience of living through having to spend considerable time with my entire family living in or immediately around the existing hospital facilities.

Whilst there are so many unresolved issues, it feels more like a Gombeen project than a reality.

My concern with anything to do with health is that it becomes a political football. Politicians should not interfere with decisions such as the location of a national centre of excellence, they should merely write the cheque and leave it to experts, not base a decision on where they need votes for the next election (which we know is why hospitals are cited around the country).

Chris_5339762 · 02-11-2010 6:11pm

ForiegnNational wrote: »

I am not Anti-Mater (leave it trekky fans), I am just speaking from experience of living through having to spend considerable time with my entire family living in or immediately around the existing hospital facilities.

You'll have to engage in discussion about that as the next generation are posting on this very forum.

monument · 02-11-2010 6:25pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Very very few Irish hospitals have anything like enough parking. The thought of putting this at the Mater is utterly daft. It should be in Tallaght next to all the road transport links. I cant concieve why anyone thinks bringing a sick child on public transport of any sort is a good idea.

ALL hospitals should be exempt from this green/public transport nonsense and given enormous carparks, be they underground or multi-storey. The kind of parking craziness that goes on at James', Cork, Beaumont, Galway and the Mater is an absolute shambles.

michael999999 wrote: »

my child has to attend crumlin 7-8 times a year at least,we travel from kerry.sometimes its only for check ups but a lot of the time he can be very sick.

the thoughts of him in the back of a car all the way from kerry and then having to crawl through city traffic is actually quiet worrying.

the argument that it should be at the mater because it will be linked to the metro and the luas is bull,as no parent will bring a sick child on public transport.

none of the nurses think the mater is a good idea,especially for parents travelling from the south.can we please listen to the people on the ground who will be asked to work there.

if its left to fianna fail it will be a disaster of epic porportions.this is all about looking after berties back yard.it will be interesting to see who will get the contract for building it.a lot of questions need to be asked as to why they want it to be built at the mater,and who will benefit from it.

There's still people in Ireland that can't afford cars or can't drive for one reason or another. I don't think those type of comments are fair to parents who try to do their best for their children. Also whatever about city public transport, a good deal of sick people use trains to get to Dublin in the first place -- for them locations like the Matter or Crumlin are ok, but Tallaght adds hugely to their journeys. The same can generally be said for those around Dublin without access to a car at all or even all the time.

And, with respect, compared to a few hours in a car, I'm not sure if public transport is all that bad. I never had anything that serious at the end of the day, but I remember hating the car but I liked the train. But there's no one solution that suits all.

In saying all of that, if a ton of car parking isn't planned for the Matter, than that's just wrong. And fully agreed about parking craziness at hospitals -- prices too should be kept low for parents. But it's still worth pointing out that the Matter is only around 4.5km from the M1 or less from the Port Tunnel (toll passes for parents could be arranged with Dublin City Council). That's only about a km less than the distance between Tallaght Hospital and the M50.

Tragedy wrote: »

SDCC have a huge amount of land available less than 10minutes walk from Tallaght Hospital and 5minutes from the Cookstown Luas stop. Would have better access to M50/N7/N4(i.e. majority of ireland's population) than somewhere along the proposed Metro North.

That's not exactly true. A site along the Metro route and close to the M50 around Ballymun would have better access for the majority of the population just on car access alone given its far closer to the M50 than the area around Tallaght.

mgmt wrote: »

Plenty of land available around Blanchardstown Hospital too. Beside M50, M3, rail. NAC closeby for the kids too.

Indeed, all round access wise, Blanchardstown seems like a far better idea than Tallaght.

Tragedy · 02-11-2010 10:46pm

monument wrote: »

There's still people in Ireland that can't afford cars or can't drive for one reason or another. I don't think those type of comments are fair to parents who try to do their best for their children. Also whatever about city public transport, a good deal of sick people use trains to get to Dublin in the first place -- for them locations like the Matter or Crumlin are ok, but Tallaght adds hugely to their journeys. The same can generally be said for those around Dublin without access to a car at all or even all the time.

And, with respect, compared to a few hours in a car, I'm not sure if public transport is all that bad. I never had anything that serious at the end of the day, but I remember hating the car but I liked the train. But there's no one solution that suits all.

In saying all of that, if a ton of car parking isn't planned for the Matter, than that's just wrong. And fully agreed about parking craziness at hospitals -- prices too should be kept low for parents. But it's still worth pointing out that the Matter is only around 4.5km from the M1 or less from the Port Tunnel (toll passes for parents could be arranged with Dublin City Council). That's only about a km less than the distance between Tallaght Hospital and the M50.

They've published statistics on how many patients travel to Crumlin via car, can't remember the figure but it was far, far, FAR higher than travel by public transport.
Having worked there, I honestly can't remember talking to anyone who travelled there by public transport, but I'm aware that's not in any way representative

That's not exactly true. A site along the Metro route and close to the M50 around Ballymun would have better access for the majority of the population just on car access alone given its far closer to the M50 than the area around Tallaght.

I just had a quick look, and I can't find anywhere along Metro North until you hit the Old Airport which seems to have the space for a major hospital(Santry Demesne and Botanic Gardens are taken, alas!)
The second part is untrue. The majority of the population of Ireland is in the south west/south east and Dublin. The majority of the population of Dublin outside the City Council is in the South west and South.

M7, M11 and the majority of South/West Dublin would be closer to Belgard Road/Greenfields site in Tallaght. M4 is almost equidistant, and M3/M1 are far closer to Blanch.

Go on to google maps, put one destination as Connolly Hospital and just start dragging the second destination around Dublin to get an idea of distances, then do the same with Belgard Road.

Indeed, all round access wise, Blanchardstown seems like a far better idea than Tallaght.

I'd settle for Blanch over Mater, if they built a dedicated slip in/out both directions on the M50. The train doesn't really make any impact considering the 4 largest towns/cities after Dublin all terminate in Dublin Heuston(Luas Red Line!).

Plus, Tallaght already has a childrens hospital(albeit small) and is one of the main teaching hospitals. Does Blanch have either benefit?

Orchard Rebel · 03-11-2010 10:31am

The thing that strikes me most about the Mater plan is the lack of proper green space. Whilst Crumlin is hardly an expanse of greenery itself, it does seem daft to me to construct a state of the art children's hospital without access to proper open green space to for sick children to play and recuperate in - rather than what seems little more than a small roof terrace overlooking the oasis of calm that is Eccles Street, which presumably they will have to share with all the other patients.

Then again, every time I hear or read the words of a senior HSE executive or adviser on the Mater, I get the distinct impression that, to them, the welfare of sick children is a major irritation to their primary concern of running a for-profit business.

ForiegnNational · 03-11-2010 12:05pm

Tragedy wrote: »

They've published statistics on how many patients travel to Crumlin via car, can't remember the figure but it was far, far, FAR higher than travel by public transport.

From the IrishHealth.com forum:

FYI - The report on travel is available on the internet - see HSE Publications section and look at the Task Group Report Appendix 7.
A few points to note
- The basis of road travel calculations were based on city average speeds of 96 kmph on motorway reduced to 32kpmh on 4th category roads. (On today's Irish Times it is reported that the average speed in the city is now 8mph [u do the maths!]).
- The report does not weight any of the location with regard to their relative distance and quality of road network from the M50. [Note Crumlin hospital have conducted a survey which shows 81% of a sample of 700 families travelled to the hospital by car.
- The report does not weight locations either in relation to their ease of access to Heuston and Connolly stations either.
- The report does not take into consideration either that the time that will be required for road users to transfer from off campus parking to shuttle bus to hospital. [Relevant only to the Mater site].
- The Trinity report as per appendix offers no conclusion or recommendation although p. 40 of the Task Group report states that the "only potential location where access would be a significant decision making factor was Beaumont Hospital"

Edit: Actually, I think I will leave this to an expert, Barry O'Donnell, retired Professor of Paediatric Surgery...

Madam, – A modern children’s hospital needs a large 40-60 bed intensive care unit, a highly efficient day care unit which might turn over patients two or even three times a day and a nearby basic hotel. Oncology and cystic fibrosis need separate units because of infection issues. All Dublin surveys omit the vital factor of a basic hotel, “Holiday Inn” standard, on site. This is an essential part of planning a children’s hospital if bed stay is to be shortened and costs contained. Many of the biggest American children’s hospitals are designed with this in mind. The nearest hotel to the Mater is the Gresham Hotel in O’Connell Street, which is a mile away.

Many people outside the paediatric field feel that there is strong case for co-location with an adult hospital. It seems logical, but it doesn’t work like that. As has been shown again and again the co-location has no tangible advantages for a large paediatric hospital. Those of us who trained in, worked in and visited standalone units all over the world will testify to that. There is, however, a strong case for crossover collaboration in research. But there is no plan for transferring the Children’s Research Centre at Our Lady’s Children’s Hospital, (founded 1965) which has been so highly successful and is now a minor part of the national fabric, to the Mater site. There is certainly no room for it there.

The Mater site is relatively near Heuston Station, according to a letter-writer who should know better (August 2nd). The station is actually nearer Crumlin and the cross-city journey to the Mater takes perhaps three times or more as long. Public transport is almost irrelevant to children’s hospital access in this second decade of the 21st century. Perhaps 90 per cent patients, especially from outside Dublin, access by car. Published data from the Mater (Irish Times Mater supplement of a few years back) about cycling times from the various mainline stations is about as relevant as rickshaw, sedan chair or gondola times and show a sad lack of insight into the real issues. About 70 per cent of children’s hospital admissions are under four years of age. Tricycle times?.

As for building on the six-hectare (15-acre) Crumlin site, the Boston Children’s (arguably the worlds number one) was built on the site of the old hospital’s car park, (I was twice visiting professor there) while the hospital continued working. The builders of Our Lady’s, Crumlin say that they could put up a building with all the modern requirements on that site without disturbing the work of the existing hospital. It would cost something over €100 million . . . a saving of €600 million. However, it looks as though the political Faustian pact will prevail. – Yours, etc,

BARRY O’DONNELL,
Retired Professor of Paediatric Surgery RCSI,
Merlyn Road, Ballsbridge,
Dublin 4.

Pete_Cavan · 03-11-2010 8:45pm

All Dublin surveys omit the vital factor of a basic hotel, “Holiday Inn” standard, on site. This is an essential part of planning a children’s hospital if bed stay is to be shortened and costs contained. Many of the biggest American children’s hospitals are designed with this in mind. The nearest hotel to the Mater is the Gresham Hotel in O’Connell Street, which is a mile away.

The Maldron Hotel on the corner of Dorset street and Granby Row is two minutes from Eccles Street.

monument · 04-11-2010 2:17am

Tragedy wrote: »

They've published statistics on how many patients travel to Crumlin via car, can't remember the figure but it was far, far, FAR higher than travel by public transport.

The big question of the 80/20% is if the 80% includes taxis or other pick up and collect services or not. If there is a notable high percentage of taxi etc journeys within the 80% arriving by car then you have to ask when are these coming from and will adding to these journeys add massively add to the cost compare to adding to private car journeys which would not add much to cost.

Going with the fact that the car wins in the car / public transport split, you still have to ask questions such as: Are the 20% more are less likely to be less better off? Who are likely to suffer more?

Given that most people here are claiming public transport is so unusable and unsuitable (at least partly rightly so, I'm sure), adding to public transport journeys is worse than adding to car journeys.

Tragedy wrote: »

I just had a quick look, and I can't find anywhere along Metro North until you hit the Old Airport which seems to have the space for a major hospital(Santry Demesne and Botanic Gardens are taken, alas!)
The second part is untrue. The majority of the population of Ireland is in the south west/south east and Dublin. The majority of the population of Dublin outside the City Council is in the South west and South.

M7, M11 and the majority of South/West Dublin would be closer to Belgard Road/Greenfields site in Tallaght. M4 is almost equidistant, and M3/M1 are far closer to Blanch.

I'm talking about a site right beside the M50.

Closer isn't the only thing that matters, traffic and type of roads also matters. Distances on motorway are meaningless compared to any other roads.

Go on to google maps, put one destination as Connolly Hospital and just start dragging the second destination around Dublin to get an idea of distances, then do the same with Belgard Road.

On that (over simple) measure, the Matter wins. It's closer to more places in Dublin than anywhere on one edge of the city or the other.

Just keep in mind I'm not strongly advocating any one site or the other -- I'm just trying to add a bit of balance to the debate.

eminoz · 04-11-2010 1:12pm

I’m not for or against the Mater location in terms of the health services to be provided. But I do know the area and I know what heavy traffic looks like. It’s not pretty.

What I understand is that (most of) the experts looked at maps and gauged its suitability from that, rather than from local knowledge/inspections. Did anyone ask the ambulance drivers, or bus or taxi drivers who know it? Forget about any travel times quoted, and forget measured distances. Crows can fly over, they’re not stuck in, traffic. (do they fly in straight lines anyway?)

If you think this site is right but don’t know the local traffic conditions, come and have a look. All I’d say is that just one car trying to park on Eccles Street will hold up all traffic each way, incl the bus and not to mention (but I will) pesky ambulances with cardiac patients. And there’s the queue for the existing car park – ditto. Tailbacks turn into traffic jams.

I’ll save you the trip: just listen to AA Roadwatch (though it’s stopped mentioning some of these as they’re so predictably bad that it’s not News): Dorset Street (Granby Row/Nth Frederick Street/Drumcondra), Church Street/Constitution Hill/Phibsborough Road, North Circular Road/Cabra Road... Berkeley Road. Any ring a bell? If you want to get to the Mater by road, you’ll be on one of these. For a long time. It’s not just the “rush-hour(s)” - there’re blackspots throughout the day and that’s not even mentioning (but again I will) Croke Park days*.

This is not just about cars and their drivers (though if you have an emergency, you don’t tend to wait for a bus – there’s usually (hopefully) a neighbour to help out?). Time is of the essence, not money. But, if you do need public transport even for emergencies, surely there are just as many living close to, say, Tallaght as to the Mater? You could call this an equal opportunities issue - buses have nearly as many problems in this traffic as cars. The Metro will help – but mostly staff and visitors; it would get you there, but you’d probably need another bus/luas/train to take you to IT. (No wonder they recommend co-location – your child will be ready for the adult hospital by the time you get there. )

So the reality is that there will be more cars. Lots of cars. With panicking drivers. Stuck in gridlock. Still a mile from hospital and crawling. What would you do? Wait till you get to the new carpark? I think not: abandon vehicle, lift child and run. More traffic problems.

Can it work? Let’s be positive for once. Just some suggestions that might help:

1. Getting rid of the car: some entrepreneur can set up a service at a perimeter about a km from the Mater, a bit like a combined valet parking/pub driver scheme: text them while in traffic and they’ll send a driver to take over the car – you’ll still have to run, but the car will be parked (eventually) for you; the driver locates you in hospital and returns key. Maybe they’ll arrive on a scooter, with trailer for child(ren) (or one of those lovely high-tech thingies used for touring the Quays) which you yourself use to get to hospital on pavements. Sounds ok? Plenty of employment potential, which must be a good thing. Requires pre-registration etc (don’t just give your car to nearest pedestrian – but then again, sick child etc, who’ll care about the motor?). (Note to Mater: provide secure scooter parking). (Note to Mater: expect increase in accidents to pedestrians)

2. Em, of course this is not strictly legal, but desperate times etc... Requires some forward planning, but for your child? Swop/trade your car for a white van (must be surplus left around) (or any van, but must spray white). Paint AMBULANCE on sides (don’t forget “ecnalubma” on bonnet, for authenticity). Get siren. Flashing lights too. (You get it). This is a one use idea, sadly. Will have to abandon vehicle as would look odd in parking bay. (Expect too to be flagged down on street for other emergencies.)

3. Alternatively, and less elaborate, just get the flashing lights and siren. And hope that the traffic can make some room for you to squeeze past. This has advantage of looking less conspicuous in your driveway, but is not as successful – not as noticeable to other traffic as ambulance.
4. There is no 4. Yet.

Don’t expect either to be successful more than once (and, of course, don’t tell anyone else about this idea or it won’t work.
Required Health and Safety warning: Am obliged to warn that any person thinking of option 2 or 3 must ensure that they have undertaken an advanced driving course, preferably one on “driving emergency vehicles)
*Unconnected to current topic, but note to self re solving problem of Croke (no)Park(ing). Idea 1 is adaptable for fans travelling to matches. (Will be rich with all these entrepreneurial ideas; mustn't tell anyone.)

monument · 04-11-2010 5:24pm

eminoz wrote: »

Crows can fly over, they’re not stuck in, traffic. (do they fly in straight lines anyway?)

Google Maps allow you to measure distances by roads.

eminoz wrote: »

If you think this site is right but don’t know the local traffic conditions, come and have a look. All I’d say is that just one car trying to park on Eccles Street will hold up all traffic each way, incl the bus and not to mention (but I will) pesky ambulances with cardiac patients. And there’s the queue for the existing car park – ditto. Tailbacks turn into traffic jams. [/FONT]

Ambulances can get by. Improve buses lanes around the Matter / North Circular Road and access for will even be better again.

eminoz wrote: »

This is not just about cars and their drivers (though if you have an emergency, you don’t tend to wait for a bus – there’s usually (hopefully) a neighbour to help out?). Time is of the essence, not money.

Ambulances can get by and even if a Garda stops a private car in an emergency in a bus lane the Garda will most likely give an escort rather than a ticket.

eminoz wrote: »

surely there are just as many living close to, say, Tallaght as to the Mater? You could call this an equal opportunities issue - buses have nearly as many problems in this traffic as cars.

No, far, far more people living near the Matter in all directions than there are near Tallaght at the edge of the city.

eminoz wrote: »

The Metro will help – but mostly staff and visitors; it would get you there, but you’d probably need another bus/luas/train to take you to IT. (No wonder they recommend co-location – your child will be ready for the adult hospital by the time you get there. )

Metro will take 20mins from the Airport to the Green. Whatever about suitability speed is not a problem. You also have bus lanes from the M1 over ground and the Port Tunnel is just over 3km away.

Staff are also more likely to live closer to the Matter than Tallaght (more so because more areas are closer to the Matter, than anything else). Cycling and walking to work is more viable for staff in a location like like the Matter but in a location like Tallaght there is more likely to be more driving and thus more traffic. Also for staff, as well as visitors, a very large amount of bus routes pass by both sides of the Matter.

mgmt · 04-11-2010 7:03pm

monument wrote: »

Staff are also more likely to live closer to the Matter than Tallaght (more so because more areas are closer to the Matter, than anything else). Cycling and walking to work is more viable for staff in a location like like the Matter but in a location like Tallaght there is more likely to be more driving and thus more traffic. Also for staff, as well as visitors, a very large amount of bus routes pass by both sides of the Matter.

Who gives a flying **** about the staff?? Children are being born in the suburbs off the M50, not in the city centre.

This is a country where we have to pay 400million euro to get rid of 4000 paper pushers. :mad:

monument · 04-11-2010 7:31pm

mgmt wrote: »

Who gives a flying **** about the staff?? Children are being born in the suburbs off the M50, not in the city centre.

First, I did not bring the issue of staff travel up, another poster did. Also a whole load of staff driving to a location off the M50 will likely notably increase traffic in such areas. Also, just to add: Having happy staff with a good quality of life and not crazy commutes is very important in getting excellent care for children.

Children are been born in the city and the suburbs inside the M50 too. And that will grow now with growing density, more suitable spaces, and people being more unlikely to be able to move out of the city than before. You have to look at the longer term.

An important question here: Is its easer for [A] private car users around the M50 to get to the Matter site OR for non-car users inside the M50 and those coming from else where on trains to get an M50 site? And I think the answer there is that it's easer for a car user to get to Matter.

Pete_Cavan · 04-11-2010 7:55pm

mgmt wrote: »

Who gives a flying **** about the staff?? Children are being born in the suburbs off the M50, not in the city centre.

Without good public transport links to the hospital the vast majority of the staff would have to drive to work. If they have to drive then they have to park at work. The parents of sick children should not have to compete with staff for parking spaces at the hospital. IMO access to public transport should have been on a par with accessibility by car when selecting the site for National Children's Hospital.

Telchak · 04-11-2010 10:48pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

=access to public transport should have been on a par with accessibility by car when selecting the site for National Children's Hospital.

While the intentions on this are good...

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

If they have to drive then they have to park at work. The parents of sick children should not have to compete with staff for parking spaces at the hospital.

...that is a bit silly, as a greenfield site would have necessary room for enough parking for both :rolleyes:

Pete_Cavan · 05-11-2010 10:35am

Telchak wrote: »

...that is a bit silly, as a greenfield site would have necessary room for enough parking for both :rolleyes:

Thats very silly. Providing car parking for over one thousand staff would be very expensive. The budget on the project has been set and if money is spent on providing car parking spaces the opportunity cost is facilities and equipment to help sick children. It makes perfect sence to build the hospital next to a public transport route which would minimise the expense involved in providing car parks for staff, meaning more money can be spent on the hospital itself.

ForiegnNational · 05-11-2010 12:19pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

If there is demand for a Holiday inn style hotel it will be built the free Market doesn't ignore possibility like this but to suggest we build a Hospital in a certain area just because there is a hotel close is madness

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The Maldron Hotel on the corner of Dorset street and Granby Row is two minutes from Eccles Street.

I know you both mean well, but again, you lack understanding, which is fair enough as probably neither of you have been in this situation...

When your child goes in for open heart surgery, it is not a night or two in a hotel. You are looking at a protracted stay of several weeks for the ENTIRE family away from home.

Whilst your comfort is the least important thing, you still have to maintain a family environment for the other children in a facility that at least mimics a family home. This is why the late late show house and Ronald McDonald house are so intrinsically important. They provide a home-away-from-home where the entire family can stay whilst your child is in hospital.

A hotel is just not the solution. Any Children's hospital has to cater for the family of the patient when it is a child, not just the patient!

As I have said before, I have no axe to grind over the Mater, I can just see a half baked plan for exactly what it is... Until a full solution is in place for ANY location, I am going to have reservations.

Pete_Cavan · 05-11-2010 7:53pm

ForiegnNational wrote: »

I know you both mean well, but again, you lack understanding, which is fair enough as probably neither of you have been in this situation...

When your child goes in for open heart surgery, it is not a night or two in a hotel. You are looking at a protracted stay of several weeks for the ENTIRE family away from home.

Whilst your comfort is the least important thing, you still have to maintain a family environment for the other children in a facility that at least mimics a family home. This is why the late late show house and Ronald McDonald house are so intrinsically important. They provide a home-away-from-home where the entire family can stay whilst your child is in hospital.

A hotel is just not the solution. Any Children's hospital has to cater for the family of the patient when it is a child, not just the patient!

As I have said before, I have no axe to grind over the Mater, I can just see a half baked plan for exactly what it is... Until a full solution is in place for ANY location, I am going to have reservations.

I was replying to the article you posted which said there must be a Holiday Inn style hotel near the National Childrens Hospital, and the article claimed there were no such hotels close to the Mater. I was pointing out that the Maldron hotel is two minutes from the Mater, I was not saying that a hotel does away with the need for facilities for parents. There will be facilites in the new hospital for parents to stay with their children, be it at the Mater or an a greenfield site, this has been covered in the thread already.

michael999999 · 06-11-2010 6:57pm

monument wrote: »

There's still people in Ireland that can't afford cars or can't drive for one reason or another. I don't think those type of comments are fair to parents who try to do their best for their children. Also whatever about city public transport, a good deal of sick people use trains to get to Dublin in the first place -- for them locations like the Matter or Crumlin are ok, but Tallaght adds hugely to their journeys. The same can generally be said for those around Dublin without access to a car at all or even all the time.

And, with respect, compared to a few hours in a car, I'm not sure if public transport is all that bad. I never had anything that serious at the end of the day, but I remember hating the car but I liked the train. But there's no one solution that suits all.

In saying all of that, if a ton of car parking isn't planned for the Matter, than that's just wrong. And fully agreed about parking craziness at hospitals -- prices too should be kept low for parents. But it's still worth pointing out that the Matter is only around 4.5km from the M1 or less from the Port Tunnel (toll passes for parents could be arranged with Dublin City Council). That's only about a km less than the distance between Tallaght Hospital and the M50.

That's not exactly true. A site along the Metro route and close to the M50 around Ballymun would have better access for the majority of the population just on car access alone given its far closer to the M50 than the area around Tallaght.

Indeed, all round access wise, Blanchardstown seems like a far better idea than Tallaght.

you cannot bring a child suffering from cancer,c.f. or any other serious illness on public transport because of risk of infection.i understand you may not know this because as you say yourself you have never suffered from anything serious.

LeinsterDub · 08-11-2010 11:37am

michael999999 wrote: »

you cannot bring a child suffering from cancer,c.f. or any other serious illness on public transport because of risk of infection.i understand you may not know this because as you say yourself you have never suffered from anything serious.

But you can bring children with other conditions public transport. Just because its not an option for some doesn't mean it's not an option for everyone.

ForiegnNational · 08-11-2010 2:41pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

But you can bring children with other conditions public transport. Just because its not an option for some doesn't mean it's not an option for everyone.

Doesn't anybody get that this is to be the NATIONAL Hospital for Children. Only 25% of people live in the City of Dublin, and of them, how many are on the immediate transport links to the Mater?

When children have to go to the likes of Crumlin, Temple Street or Tallagh, they are not just visiting the dentist. They are often going in for serious operations or procedures that mean they are going to be in for days if not weeks.

You can't just drop them off the the bus/metro/luas and head home. It's fine if you live within 20 minutes of the hospital in Dublin, but for all other parts of the country, you will be moving your entire family to Dublin for a prolonged stay. I don't see people using the Luas/Metro/Bus as a realistic method of taking everything you need for a family with you.

In addition to the immediate family, visitors are also coming from all over Ireland. Again, the fact that the site will be on the route of a planned (but unfortunately likely to be long fingered) metro line is lovely, but doesn't cater for the majority of people coming via car (80% from Crumlin statistics).

Pete_Cavan · 08-11-2010 3:36pm

ForiegnNational wrote: »

Doesn't anybody get that this is to be the NATIONAL Hospital for Children. Only 25% of people live in the City of Dublin, and of them, how many are on the immediate transport links to the Mater?

When children have to go to the likes of Crumlin, Temple Street or Tallagh, they are not just visiting the dentist. They are often going in for serious operations or procedures that mean they are going to be in for days if not weeks.

You can't just drop them off the the bus/metro/luas and head home. It's fine if you live within 20 minutes of the hospital in Dublin, but for all other parts of the country, you will be moving your entire family to Dublin for a prolonged stay. I don't see people using the Luas/Metro/Bus as a realistic method of taking everything you need for a family with you.

In addition to the immediate family, visitors are also coming from all over Ireland. Again, the fact that the site will be on the route of a planned (but unfortunately likely to be long fingered) metro line is lovely, but doesn't cater for the majority of people coming via car (80% from Crumlin statistics).

Nobody expects sick children to go to hospital on a train so stop banging on about it. There are however many healthy adults who could use public transport to get to the hospital. If the hospital does not have good access to public transport then you have to provide car parking for 1,500 staff. This would be an unnecessary expense when we should be getting cars off the road and encouraging people to use public transport to get to work.

Also having access to public transport from the hospital has benefits for families staying their because it means they are not just confined to the hospital and would be able to take their other children into town etc. No public transport would also mean every visitor has to drive and park at the hospital.

There is a limit to the amount of funds available for this project so if several thousand car parking spaces have to be provided then there is less money to spend on facilities within the hospital. The National Childrens Hospital, be it at the Mater or elsewhere, needs good public transport links. End of.

LeinsterDub · 09-11-2010 12:34am

ForiegnNational wrote: »

Doesn't anybody get that this is to be the NATIONAL Hospital for Children. Only 25% of people live in the City of Dublin, and of them, how many are on the immediate transport links to the Mater?

When children have to go to the likes of Crumlin, Temple Street or Tallagh, they are not just visiting the dentist. They are often going in for serious operations or procedures that mean they are going to be in for days if not weeks.

You can't just drop them off the the bus/metro/luas and head home. It's fine if you live within 20 minutes of the hospital in Dublin, but for all other parts of the country, you will be moving your entire family to Dublin for a prolonged stay. I don't see people using the Luas/Metro/Bus as a realistic method of taking everything you need for a family with you.

In addition to the immediate family, visitors are also coming from all over Ireland. Again, the fact that the site will be on the route of a planned (but unfortunately likely to be long fingered) metro line is lovely, but doesn't cater for the majority of people coming via car (80% from Crumlin statistics).

The mater is about the same distance from the m50 as Crumlin. Something which was ignored the first time I posted this.

monument · 09-11-2010 2:34am

ForiegnNational wrote: »

Doesn't anybody get that this is to be the NATIONAL Hospital for Children. Only 25% of people live in the City of Dublin, and of them, how many are on the immediate transport links to the Mater?

Actually, going by the last Census figures, Co Dublin has around 28% of the population and the Greater Dublin Area has 39.2%.

After the last Census in 2006, the CSO reported that "All other regions lost population share over the 45-year period [up to 2006]." Downturn or no down turn this is suspected to remain the same -- I'd be surprised if the Census next year does not show the Greater Dublin Area peeking above.

ForiegnNational wrote: »

When children have to go to the likes of Crumlin, Temple Street or Tallagh, they are not just visiting the dentist. They are often going in for serious operations or procedures that mean they are going to be in for days if not weeks.

And many are also just going in for a day.

ForiegnNational wrote: »

You can't just drop them off the the bus/metro/luas and head home. It's fine if you live within 20 minutes of the hospital in Dublin, but for all other parts of the country, you will be moving your entire family to Dublin for a prolonged stay. I don't see people using the Luas/Metro/Bus as a realistic method of taking everything you need for a family with you.

No, not everybody can just head home -- that's a given no matter where its built. And nobody here is saying public transport suits very sick children -- it's not even suitable for some mildly sick children. Cars are not even suitable for all cases -- there's no one size fits all.

But parents and other visitors do have to visit, get to other accommodation, get to friends house, get from work to the hospital, get back home, get to train stations, motorways etc.

Not everybody will have whole families with them and, as I said, many are also just going in for a day or two.

ForiegnNational wrote: »

In addition to the immediate family, visitors are also coming from all over Ireland. Again, the fact that the site will be on the route of a planned (but unfortunately likely to be long fingered) metro line is lovely, but doesn't cater for the majority of people coming via car (80% from Crumlin statistics).

Again, does the 80% include taxies? I know we took the taxi any time using the train to get to Dublin going to hospital for my sister or my self.

It'll also be 3km from the nearest motorway, the Port Tunnel, and about 4.5km from the M1 overground. Also from the non-motorway main roads it'll be around 1km from the Finglas Road (the open section of the N2), 2km from the Navan Road (N3), also 2km from the quays (N4).

From Matter, some of the main trains stations in the country are also near by -- Connolly is 1.5km and Heuston is 3km.

Traffic isn't that much of an issue and, in an emergency, bus lanes can be used -- even by private cars, no garda will ticket somebody with a sick child in the back of a car in an emergency. Generally traffic will become a big issue on a greenfield site if staff and visitors only have the realistic option of driving.

BostonB · 09-11-2010 3:04am

I have plenty experience of having family in the mater and kids to temple street. Both getting in there in emergency, and longer stays or even visits. We have regular visits to temple street for an on going condition.

I'm in Dublin and the location is a nightmare.

Traffic is a nightmare. Theres no parking. You have to feed meters, if you have to get food out of regular hours theres nothing near it. I know the area pretty well, but even for me its a nightmare due to all the no left/right turns at so many junctions. PITA. Even if you overlook the immediate area itself, you have to pass through a lot of other traffic bottlenecks to get to it. If I used public transport it would make the round trip about 3 times longer than it takes in the car. Makes no sense to me. Not to mention that public transport is probably the least healthiest way to travel, even for healthy people. On a separate issue putting big hospitals together seems like a great way of spreading infections to me. Considering the Mater was one of the worst in my experience.

LeinsterDub · 09-11-2010 10:09am

BostonB wrote: »

I have plenty experience of having family in the mater and kids to temple street. Both getting in there in emergency, and longer stays or even visits. We have regular visits to temple street for an on going condition.

I'm in Dublin and the location is a nightmare.

Traffic is a nightmare.

Traffic is a nightmare 24/7? Please I live in the surrounding area and you'll get from the M50 to the cemetery in 5 to 10 minutes with a futher 5 to 10 on to the mater.

theres no parking. You have to feed meters,

There will be a massive underground

if you have to get food out of regular hours theres nothing near it.

How out of hours? I can think of several pubs and restaurants near by and if push cam to shove a 24 hours tesco

I know the area pretty well, but even for me its a nightmare due to all the no left/right turns at so many junctions. PITA. Even if you overlook the immediate area itself, you have to pass through a lot of other traffic bottlenecks to get to it.

Simply untrue. The traffic in that area generally keeps moving and there are several option to get there

If I used public transport it would make the round trip about 3 times longer than it takes in the car. Makes no sense to me. Not to mention that public transport is probably the least healthiest way to travel, even for healthy people.

Even currently it all depends where your coming from and with MN it will be massively improved

On a separate issue putting big hospitals together seems like a great way of spreading infections to me. Considering the Mater was one of the worst in my experience.

By that logic the best way to stop spreading infections would be to have no hospitals at all .

New Children's Hospital at Mater site

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