Should Atheist Ireland rebrand itself?

smacl · 13-08-2014 10:29am

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Why do a group's size have anything to do with their right to be heard?

Because giving a small extreme group a disproportionately large amount of air-time on a publicly funded channel exemplifies just the type of unfair bias that we are discussing.

I Heart Internet · 13-08-2014 12:14pm

smacl wrote: »

Because giving a small extreme group a disproportionately large amount of air-time on a publicly funded channel exemplifies just the type of unfair bias that we are discussing.

How are Iona "extreme"? What extreme positions do they hold?

I think Iona have clearly been very successful in organising themselves and marketing themselves as an organisation which fights the "Christian" corner. I don't begrudge them this success. To a lesser extent, Atheist Ireland, has been successful in organising and positioning themselves as an organisation that speaks up for atheists.

Piliger · 13-08-2014 12:32pm

smacl wrote: »

Because giving a small extreme group a disproportionately large amount of air-time on a publicly funded channel exemplifies just the type of unfair bias that we are discussing.

I agree. But not just on a publicly funded channel.
A program discussion panel made up of an RTE interviewer and three Iona people to discuss their point of view is fine as a once off.
A program discussion panel made up of an RTE interviewer, two Iona people and one non-Iona to discuss broader issues is not acceptable. It is clear bias on any channel and should not be ok.
A program discussion panel made up of an RTE interviewer and consistently representing Iona as the voice of a significant group in this country is also unacceptable. It is consistent bias of a severe degree.

Dades · 13-08-2014 12:35pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

To a lesser extent, Atheist Ireland, has been successful in organising and positioning themselves as an organisation that speaks up for atheists.

This brings us back to the thread title. AI should not be perceived as an organisation speaking for atheists as their charter goes way beyond what constitutes an atheist. But clearly in some quarters it is.

Piliger · 13-08-2014 12:36pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

How are Iona "extreme"? What extreme positions do they hold?

I think Iona have clearly been very successful in organising themselves and marketing themselves as an organisation which fights the "Christian" corner. I don't begrudge them this success. To a lesser extent, Atheist Ireland, has been successful in organising and positioning themselves as an organisation that speaks up for atheists.

Firstly Atheist Ireland does not speak for Atheists. It only speaks for it's members. Iona holds the extreme end of Irish catholic views, and any casual reference to their views places them firmly in that category.
How often have Atheist Ireland appeared on or been invited on to discussion programs on RTE ?
Iona is also a private organisation funded from unknown sources, some of which are outside the country. Atheist Ireland is purely a members driven organisation that exists on members fees and donations.
These could not be more different in their character.

Piliger · 13-08-2014 12:40pm

Dades wrote: »

This brings us back to the thread title. AI should not be perceived as an organisation speaking for atheists as their charter goes way beyond what constitutes an atheist. But clearly in some quarters it is.

It is impossible to completely control how an organisation is perceived. Their web site and communications makes their position crystal clear and that is all they can do. I don't believe there is any significant view among the public that they peak for Atheists and they make no claim whatsoever to speak for Atheists, and they certainly do not speak for me.
Your assertion that an organisation cannot use a name based on the major topic that they involve themselves in, just because they also take stands on other topics is completely erroneous.

I Heart Internet · 13-08-2014 12:50pm

Piliger wrote: »

Firstly Atheist Ireland does not speak for Atheists. It only speaks for it's members.

Fair enough. Maybe their name is (however unintentional) misleading so?

Piliger wrote: »

Iona holds the extreme end of Irish catholic views, and any casual reference to their views places them firmly in that category.

Could you give us some examples of the "extreme" views (or actions) that Iona hold (or carry out)? Are these things illegal?

Piliger wrote: »

How often have Atheist Ireland appeared on or been invited on to discussion programs on RTE ?

I don't know.

Piliger wrote: »

Iona is also a private organisation funded from unknown sources, some of which are outside the country. Atheist Ireland is purely a members driven organisation that exists on members fees and donations.
These could not be more different in their character.

Fair enough. Maybe AI would have more success if they followed the Iona model?

Piliger · 13-08-2014 12:54pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Fair enough. Maybe their name is (however unintentional) misleading so?

"Atheist Ireland" ?? How exactly can you possibly draw that conclusion ?

Could you give us some examples of the "extreme" views (or actions) that Iona hold (or carry out)? Are these things illegal?

Did anyone anywhere claims they were illegal ?

I don't know.

Then your comparison of the two organisations falls flat on it's face.

Fair enough. Maybe AI would have more success if they followed the Iona model?

The only reason Iona has success is because they have people in RTE to push and support their views. Atheist Ireland are a grass roots organisation and as such have far more legitimacy and validity and credibility.

robindch · 13-08-2014 12:57pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Could you give us some examples of the "extreme" views (or actions) that Iona hold (or carry out)? Are these things illegal?

Piliger said, quite specifically and even in the text you quoted, that Quinn's views are at the "extreme end of Irish catholic views". Piliger did not say that these views were "extreme" in themselves so I'm not quite sure why you're misrepresenting his opinion.

Quinn's views are dishonest, based as they are upon a dishonest worldview; he frequently misrepresents the views of his opponents and he frequently misrepresents his own views, and for those reasons alone, I detest Quinn and his mates and wonder why -- other than as clickbait -- they're given so much airtime to launder his transparently daft rubbish.

I Heart Internet · 13-08-2014 1:09pm

robindch wrote: »

Piliger said, quite specifically and even in the text you quoted, that Quinn's views are at the "extreme end of Irish catholic views". Piliger did not say that these views were "extreme" in themselves so I'm not quite sure why you're misrepresenting his opinion.

Quinn's views are dishonest, based as they are upon a dishonest worldview; he frequently misrepresents the views of his opponents and he frequently misrepresents his own views, and for those reasons alone, I detest Quinn and his mates and wonder why -- other than as clickbait -- they're given so much airtime to launder his transparently daft rubbish.

Both smacl and Philiger suggest that Iona's views are extreme. Albeit, as you point out, Philiger suggests they are merely at the "extreme end of Irish catholic views." Just wondering what extremist views they were referring too. What views do they hold that mean RTE should steer clear of them?

robindch · 13-08-2014 1:14pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Albeit, as you point out, Philiger suggests they are merely at the "extreme end of Irish catholic views." Just wondering what extremist views they were referring too.

So, on the one hand you accept that you misrepresented Piliger, but on the other hand, you want people to pretend that your misrepresentation is accurate.

I'm not all that interested in continuing this line, but just pointing out that you're not debating honestly.

I Heart Internet · 13-08-2014 1:14pm

Piliger wrote: »

"Atheist Ireland" ?? How exactly can you possibly draw that conclusion ?

The name suggests, or could be taken to suggest, that they represent the views of atheists in Ireland - even if they make clear on their website that they don't.

Piliger wrote: »

Then your comparison of the two organisations falls flat on it's face.

Why? Because AI can't get on TV shows?

Piliger wrote: »

The only reason Iona has success is because they have people in RTE to push and support their views. Atheist Ireland are a grass roots organisation and as such have far more legitimacy and validity and credibility.

I think this is conspiracy theory stuff. Same kind of conspiracy theories that, for example, the newspaper Alive indulges in where it points out how the media (IT and RTE especially) are horribly biased against Catholicism and family values.

Piliger · 13-08-2014 1:16pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

The name suggests, or could be taken to suggest, that they represent the views of atheists in Ireland - even if they make clear on their website that they don't.

A totally irrational assessment.

Why? Because AI can't get on TV shows?

100% correct.

I think this is conspiracy theory stuff. Same kind of conspiracy theories that, for example, the newspaper Alive indulges in where it points out how the media (IT and RTE especially) are horribly biased against Catholicism and family values.

More irrational outrage.

I Heart Internet · 13-08-2014 1:21pm

Piliger wrote: »

A totally irrational assessment.

100% correct.

More irrational outrage.

Swim Ireland
Engineers Ireland
Down Syndrome Ireland
Motorsport Ireland

and so on.....

It's not unreasonable (even if it is wrong) for people to think that perhaps, just perhaps, and organisation named "Atheist Ireland" represents, or seeks to represent atheists in Ireland.

(also, I'm not outraged, just pointing out that your notion of a catholic conspiracy within RTE sounds a little fantastic)

Piliger · 13-08-2014 1:40pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Swim Ireland
Engineers Ireland
Down Syndrome Ireland
Motorsport Ireland

and so on.....

It's not unreasonable (even if it is wrong) for people to think that perhaps, just perhaps, and organisation named "Atheist Ireland" represents, or seeks to represent atheists in Ireland.

(also, I'm not outraged, just pointing out that your notion of a catholic conspiracy within RTE sounds a little fantastic)

Where on earth do you get the idea that any of those organisations claim to represent those interests, ailments ? I find your irrationality quite perverse and weird.

smacl · 13-08-2014 1:50pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Both smacl and Philiger suggest that Iona's views are extreme. Albeit, as you point out, Philiger suggests they are merely at the "extreme end of Irish catholic views." Just wondering what extremist views they were referring too. What views do they hold that mean RTE should steer clear of them?

Perhaps extreme is a bit harsh, but clearly laughable to a large number of people when you see adds like this;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaRK-0W5HQI

sent up like this;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wopoEJxFYQw

I'll leave it at that lest they set the dogs on me. I wouldn't dare suggest they're a discriminatory organisation for example. :pac:

I Heart Internet · 13-08-2014 1:52pm

Piliger wrote: »

Where on earth do you get the idea that any of those organisations claim to represent those interests, ailments ? I find your irrationality quite perverse and weird.

"Swim Ireland is the governing body of swimming in Ireland."

With almost 24,000 members from every discipline of engineering, Engineers
Ireland is the voice of the engineering profession in Ireland.

Down Syndrome Ireland is a national voluntary organisation supporting people
with Down syndrome and their families in twenty-five branches nationwide.

Motorsport Ireland (MI) is the National Governing Body for four-wheeled
motorsport in Ireland.

All from their respective websites, you get the picture.

What I find weird is your unwillingness to accept that people might genuinely be led to believe that Atheist Ireland seeks to represents atheists in Ireland.

I Heart Internet · 13-08-2014 1:54pm

smacl wrote: »

Perhaps extreme is a bit harsh, but clearly laughable to a large number of people when you see adds like this;

I see, glad we cleared that up. Iona do not hold extreme views at all. Just views that make some people titter. Big difference there to be fair.

Delirium · 13-08-2014 1:54pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

All from their respective websites, you get the picture.

What I find weird is your unwillingness to accept that people might genuinely be led to believe that Atheist Ireland seeks to represents atheists in Ireland.

I'm more concerned that they govern atheism in Ireland! :eek::P

smacl · 13-08-2014 1:56pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I see, glad we cleared that up. Iona do not hold extreme views at all. Just views that make some people titter. Big difference there to be fair.

There ya go, apparently they're not even Catholic. How wrong was i? Just a bunch of nice un-extreme sciencey types. (Down Rusty, Bad Dog!)

robindch · 13-08-2014 2:10pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I see, glad we cleared that up. Iona do not hold extreme views at all. Just views that make some people titter. Big difference there to be fair.

And Quinn's views make some people -- whom I know, lest you ask -- fearful, hateful, obnoxious, judgmental, hurtful and so on.

Your habit of misrepresenting people's views is really quite tiresome, but strangely, you seem either unaware of it (in which case, I suggest you try to become a little more self-aware), or you are aware of it, in which case you are, again, not debating honestly.

The latter amounts to trolling and is against the forum charter.

I Heart Internet · 13-08-2014 2:30pm

robindch wrote: »

And Quinn's views make some people -- whom I know, lest you ask -- fearful, hateful, obnoxious, judgmental, hurtful and so on.

Your habit of misrepresenting people's views is really quite tiresome, but strangely, you seem either unaware of it (in which case, I suggest you try to become a little more self-aware), or you are aware of it, in which case you are, again, not debating honestly.

The latter amounts to trolling and is against the forum charter.

My views have been called weird and perverse on this forum, yet I get called out for engaging people when they say the Iona institute's views are extreme?

I've been, for the most part, engaging with the thread title - "should AI rebrand".

Zubeneschamali · 13-08-2014 2:33pm

I don't think the Iona Institute's views are extreme, I think they are perfectly appropriate for an organization that fell through a wormhole from 1936.

Piliger · 13-08-2014 2:40pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I see, glad we cleared that up. Iona do not hold extreme views at all. Just views that make some people titter. Big difference there to be fair.

And yet they are indeed extreme.

Piliger · 13-08-2014 2:41pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

All from their respective websites, you get the picture.

What I find weird is your unwillingness to accept that people might genuinely be led to believe that Atheist Ireland seeks to represents atheists in Ireland.

Yet your quotes support my assertion and undermine all of your claims.

I Heart Internet · 13-08-2014 2:43pm

Piliger wrote: »

And yet they are indeed extreme.

I'd be extremely interested to take up our debate about the need to rebrand Atheist Ireland. Did you see from my post above, how people might, in good faith, mistakenly think that Atheist Ireland is the "voice of atheism" in Ireland?

I Heart Internet · 13-08-2014 2:43pm

Piliger wrote: »

Yet your quotes support my assertion and undermine all of your claims.

How so?

Piliger · 13-08-2014 3:43pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I'd be extremely interested to take up our debate about the need to rebrand Atheist Ireland. Did you see from my post above, how people might, in good faith, mistakenly think that Atheist Ireland is the "voice of atheism" in Ireland?

Yes. And I described it as irrational and unmerited.

I Heart Internet · 13-08-2014 3:46pm

Piliger wrote: »

Yes. And I described it as irrational and unmerited.

So the name "Atheist Ireland" is clear and unambiguous? I am being irrational for suggesting that people may mistakenly believe AI seeks to represent all atheists in Ireland? Could you explain, for a simpleton like myself, why that is irrational?

Jamiekelly · 13-08-2014 7:25pm

An organisation that works actively to deny a minority of the population the right to be seen as equals are extreme.

If RTE had a guest panelist that wanted to stop Polish people from getting married or adopting children simply because they read it in a book I would first call them idiots and then extreme.

Especially when they use the guise of "representing family values" while at the same time being apologists for an organisation that raped children. Plenty of open hypocricy from Iona.

I Heart Internet, you've been clutching at straws for the past few pages now. Maybe its time to move onto the next debate?

Dades · 13-08-2014 10:36pm

Piliger wrote: »

It is impossible to completely control how an organisation is perceived.

Indeed it is but the name is the most important thing to get right. Most people I'd imagine don't get as far as a website, they just see/hear it in the media.

Piliger wrote: »

Their web site and communications makes their position crystal clear and that is all they can do.

It makes their aims crystal clear. It says nothing about not representing atheists in general.

Piliger wrote: »

I don't believe there is any significant view among the public that they peak for Atheists and they make no claim whatsoever to speak for Atheists, and they certainly do not speak for me.

Well I do. I even quoted a post of someone on here implying that very idea.

Piliger wrote: »

Your assertion that an organisation cannot use a name based on the major topic that they involve themselves in, just because they also take stands on other topics is completely erroneous.

If I'd said someone cannot use a name I would have been erroneous, Mr Strawman.

It's not erroneous to offer an opinion that a chosen name has a side effect of skewing some people's perceptions of a word. And since this is not something you or I can truly ascertain without hitting the streets or creating a poll in AH, all either of have are opinions.

I Heart Internet · 14-08-2014 10:54am

Jamiekelly wrote: »

An organisation that works actively to deny a minority of the population the right to be seen as equals are extreme.

"the right to be seen as equals" is a very loaded (not to mention vague) phrase. I suspect, from you follow on paragraph that you're talking about same-sex marriage. If we're going down the road of labelling anyone who does not agree with the proposed novel definition of marriage as "extreme" then you might find that there are a lot of "extremists" in the country....

Jamiekelly wrote: »

I Heart Internet, you've been clutching at straws for the past few pages now. Maybe its time to move onto the next debate?

I've been asking people why they label Iona and their views as extreme. fair play to you Jamiekelly for being the first person to actually give an example of a view that you think is extreme, even if I don't agree that it is.

Piliger · 14-08-2014 1:24pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

So the name "Atheist Ireland" is clear and unambiguous?

Completely.

I am being irrational for suggesting that people may mistakenly believe AI seeks to represent all atheists in Ireland?

Completely.

nozzferrahhtoo · 14-08-2014 1:36pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

So the name "Atheist Ireland" is clear and unambiguous?

It is to me. Every bit as much as the "Labour" party which also does not speak for everyone who labours or is in labour taking gas and air.

It is certainly clearer and more unambiguous than the names some people have unfortunately come up for their businesses or associations. One from my college years in Cork always jumps to mind which can be read in one of two ways. I know which one they meant.... but I also know which one makes me want to go in and ask for a net bag of tennis balls.

smacl · 14-08-2014 2:13pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

So the name "Atheist Ireland" is clear and unambiguous?

Certainly not to me, regardless of how you read it. Given that Ireland isn't a country with an atheist majority, the obvious interpretation of the name is an organisation representing atheists in Ireland and/or promoting atheism in Ireland. While it's members may be atheists, I doubt they could reasonably be described as representative of atheism in Ireland. Similarly, their activities seem to be more focussed on secularism than anything else.

I am being irrational for suggesting that people may mistakenly believe AI seeks to represent all atheists in Ireland? Could you explain, for a simpleton like myself, why that is irrational?

It is only irrational insofar as it should be pretty obvious to most people that atheists aren't a homogeneous group with a broadly common world view or any agenda. There is a common fallacy that crops up regularly on these boards and elsewhere that atheism can be compared to a religion without a God, much like humanism for example. I think this is untrue and misleading, and I can see how the name Atheist Ireland would add to the confusion for those who aren't atheists.

I Heart Internet · 14-08-2014 3:05pm

Piliger wrote: »

Completely.

Completely.

You failed to answer the "why" part of my question.

And comment #78 while you're at it.

Michael Nugent · 14-08-2014 3:40pm

I think some people are underestimating most people’s common sense.

Should the following also rebrand themselves?

The Catholic Church
The Church of Ireland
The Humanist Association of Ireland
The Irish Times
The Irish Independent
The Irish Architectural Archive
The Labour Party
The Workers Party
The Green Party
Manchester United
Manchester City
United of Manchester
Chariots of Fire
Lord of the Flies
50 Shades of Grey
Boards.ie

nozzferrahhtoo · 14-08-2014 3:46pm

Michael Nugent wrote: »

[*]The Green Party

Who the hell do they think they are speaking on behalf of everything green! Do they want to be the voice of anything green? Dear god in heaven above what would Kermit the Frog think about this. Have they even BOTHERED to listen to the heart breaking lyrics of "Its not easy being green?"

robindch · 14-08-2014 3:46pm

^^^ Good point. Does the Irish Times represent all Irish people? Can foreigners legitimately feel excluded?

I Heart Internet · 14-08-2014 4:28pm

Michael Nugent wrote: »

I think some people are underestimating most people’s common sense.

Agreed. Most people can figure it out for themselves and there's no pressing need for a name change.

But don't be shocked if people do, in good faith, mistakenly think Atheist Ireland might be some kind of representative/lobbying body for more than just it's members.

Michael Nugent · 14-08-2014 5:01pm

Michael Nugent wrote: »

I think some people are underestimating most people’s common sense.

Should the following also rebrand themselves?
The Catholic Church

The Church of Ireland

The Humanist Association of Ireland

The Irish Times

The Irish Independent

The Irish Architectural Archive

The Labour Party

The Workers Party

The Green Party

Manchester United

Manchester City

United of Manchester

Chariots of Fire

Lord of the Flies

50 Shades of Grey

Boards.ie

The more I think of it, we should be more concerned about almost any group or organisation whose name begins with the word 'The'

Pherekydes · 14-08-2014 5:13pm

Michael Nugent wrote: »

Should the following also rebrand themselves?
Manchester United

This one should! It's not in Manchester!

:pac:

Michael Nugent · 14-08-2014 5:18pm

Pherekydes wrote: »

This one should! It's not in Manchester!

:pac:

And it is not united

Dades · 14-08-2014 6:13pm

If this is the level we're going to play at, I'm not sure I'm in any more.

Pherekydes · 14-08-2014 6:32pm

Dades wrote: »

If this is the level we're going to play at, I'm not sure I'm in any more.

You wait weeks, months even, to make a profound statement on the meaning of life, atheism, biscuits or the city of Stretford, and someone counters with a slapdown!

Atheism: deadly serious business!

smacl · 15-08-2014 7:51am

Dades wrote: »

If this is the level we're going to play at, I'm not sure I'm in any more.

Meh, wouldn't be much fun around here if people agreed with each other all the time. As per the opening post and Michael's last response, pity 50 shades of grey has already been taken...

smacl · 15-08-2014 9:19am

Michael Nugent wrote: »

I think some people are underestimating most people’s common sense.

Should the following also rebrand themselves?
The Catholic Church

The Church of Ireland

The Humanist Association of Ireland

The Irish Times

The Irish Independent

The Irish Architectural Archive

The Labour Party

The Workers Party

The Green Party

Manchester United

Manchester City

United of Manchester

Chariots of Fire

Lord of the Flies

50 Shades of Grey

Boards.ie

Your list comprises of the following;

- Very well established brand names that are recognisable based on their size, age, and investment made in their development (e.g. the Newspapers, Political parties, and Churches).

- Organisations which include words that have more than one well understood and accepted meaning. Labour and Green for example include references to the type of politics they represent in the major dictionaries.

- Incomplete names, such as Manchester United, where I'm guessing you mean Manchester United F.C. Even then these are huge brands with massive audiences.

- Book titles, such as lord of the Flies, where the title is typically meant to pique interest rather than represent content.

- Smaller less well known organisations, where the title does in fact convey the principal activity of that organisation. e.g. The Humanist Association of Ireland, The Irish Architectural Archive. I'm just assuming The Humanist Association of Ireland are broadly representative humanism in this country, and that their use of the word humanism for example agrees with common dictionary definitions.

As a name, Atheist Ireland isn't really comparable to any of the above.

Mr. CooL ICE · 15-08-2014 11:54am

wretcheddomain · 15-08-2014 12:57pm

And he has to stop wearing those red t-shirts in every debate! Am I the only one to have noticed this?

We still haven't addressed the attire issue of Atheist Ireland!

Zubeneschamali · 15-08-2014 2:46pm

That's not a t-shirt, it's a polo shirt

Should Atheist Ireland rebrand itself?

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