Swiftway - Dublin's first bus rapid transit route - detailed plans released

cgcsb · 17-10-2014 11:50am

Although I welcome it overall as a slight improvement, mostly for cyclists, as a bus service it isn't of any distinct value. A few upgrades of the existing service could achieve the same standard such as:

multi door use(already being rolled out, but non cooperation from drivers)
Of board ticketing (can be done anyway)
Traffic light priority, already put in place with cityswift but switched off to appease the motorist lobby.

overall we're not getting a substantial improvement in bus service for the money. The money would be better spent on any enabling works required for metro north.

I'm also a bit taken aback by the proposal to have the BRT lanes used as left turning lanes at junctions, that is just unacceptable really and another sop to car fetishists.

Shedite27 · 17-10-2014 1:11pm

cgcsb wrote: »

overall we're not getting a substantial improvement in bus service for the money. The money would be better spent on any enabling works required for metro north.

Everyone in Ireland would like Metro North, but if we're not getting that well then this is at least a step up.

And I reckon we are gettign a substancial improvement. As someone who travels from Griffith Avenue to Harcourt Street for work each day, I expect this to knock 20/25mns off my journey each way based on offboard ticketing, junction prioritisation and the ability to pass slower busses.

cgcsb · 17-10-2014 1:49pm

Shedite27 wrote: »

And I reckon we are gettign a substancial improvement. As someone who travels from Griffith Avenue to Harcourt Street for work each day, I expect this to knock 20/25mns off my journey each way based on offboard ticketing, junction prioritisation and the ability to pass slower busses.

and as I said, offboard ticketing can be achieved without brt, and traffic light prioritisation already exists but was turned off come election season, which can happen again just as easily.

bk · 17-10-2014 2:01pm

lxflyer wrote: »

The reason that there are virtually no bus shelters in the city centre is that Dublin City Council did not want Adshel (the company who provides the shelters) getting any advertising revenue from them. It wanted the revenue for itself.

I'm aware of all that.

However I note that Luas stop shelters have no advertising, thus avoiding the issue all together. I assume that the BRT shelters will be in the same style as the Luas shelters.

I also get the feeling that the NTA is planning to take over the ownership of all bus stops, shelters and bus stop location licensing from DB and other companies, at least in the city center.

Thus the NTA could also put up new DB Bus shelters in the city center with no advertising, which would thus avoid any objections from DCC.

If you look at the picture of the Westmoreland Street bus stops, it doesn't really look like a traditional bus shelter, more like a large overhead continuous shelter you would see at a large bus depot. Those typically don't have advertising.

Finally even if the NTA did decide to put advertising on their own stops, I would think DCC would find it much more difficult to object to. NTA has a lot more power over DCC then DB does. DCC gets a lot of funding from the NTA now and it would be much more difficult for them to say no.

TheBandicoot · 17-10-2014 2:08pm

Luas stops don't have advertising? That's pretty stupid, and I see no reason to extend that stupidity to all bus stops- why should the State(NTA) turn down free money that would help subsidise the service?

cgcsb · 17-10-2014 2:13pm

Luas stops do indeed have advertising, typically limited to the large pillar things with the realtime info display.

bk · 17-10-2014 2:19pm

TheBandicoot wrote: »

Luas stops don't have advertising? That's pretty stupid, and I see no reason to extend that stupidity to all bus stops- why should the State(NTA) turn down free money that would help subsidise the service?

Well Luas stops are very different from Bus shelters, the Luas stops are dominated by the ticket machine and passenger information posters (map, schedule, pricing, etc.) and rightfully so. It doesn't leave much space for advertising on the shelter itself.

However I had forgotten that the RTPI poles at the Luas stops do in fact have advertising. I'm not sure if that goes to the NTA, DCC or shared between them.

Looking at the BRT plans again, it looks that while the BRT stops will have Luas style shelters, with the exception of the large shelter like structure on D'Olier Street (and maybe westmoreland St? It isn't clear), that most of the DB bus stops still won't have shelters

One safety issue I see on D'Olier Street. It looks like the BRT platform will have a small Luas style shelter while across the lane from it is the much larger shelter structure. Due to lack of space at the Luas stop shelter. I could see people waiting at the DB shelter structure and then dashing across the road last minute in front of an oncoming BRT.

I hope the solution to this would be to put a larger shelter structure at the BRT stop, rather then remove the DB shelter structure. Also I imagine they will use guardrails to separate them.

Aard · 17-10-2014 2:33pm

Your comment on dashing across the road got me thinking -- will BRT stop at every stop just like Luas or will an alighting passenger have to press a bell? I got the impression that the BRT will stop everywhere, but it hasn't been explicitly stated iirc...

Pete_Cavan · 17-10-2014 2:38pm

Shedite27 wrote: »

Everyone in Ireland would like Metro North, but if we're not getting that well then this is at least a step up.

And I reckon we are gettign a substancial improvement. As someone who travels from Griffith Avenue to Harcourt Street for work each day, I expect this to knock 20/25mns off my journey each way based on offboard ticketing, junction prioritisation and the ability to pass slower busses.

Proper BRT doesnt have to pull out into a general traffic lane to pass other buses, it is ridiculous that we would expect them to. At peak times I dont think passing buses would faster than waiting behind the bus anyway, the BRT buses will be very long so not easy for them to find a gap in heavy traffic and may even have difficulty getting back to its own lane if there are several buses together in it. I doubt there will be any time savings between Griffith Ave and town due to the volume of buses which travel that route, BRT will not get a clear run. BRT buses will only be able to go as fast as the bus in front of it. The time saving from offboard ticketing will be cancelled out by sitting behind DB buses at stop while passengers fumble with change.

Shedite27 · 17-10-2014 2:48pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Proper BRT doesnt have to pull out into a general traffic lane to pass other buses, it is ridiculous that we would expect them to. ...... The time saving from offboard ticketing will be cancelled out by sitting behind DB buses at stop while passengers fumble with change.

If you look at the proposal maps, BRT stops are now in the bus lane, regular bus stops in off the bus lane. So the BRT (with offboard payments) will pass the regular busses (with fumbling change passengers) at each stop.

monument · 17-10-2014 3:15pm

xper wrote: »

One common feature of a properly designed QBC, let alone a BRT line, is that the reserved traffic lane runs right up to the stop line at junctions. And yet these plans still have BRT lanes transforming into left-turn filter lanes at traffic lights in the suburbs. Fail.

I have to say BRT/bus lanes becoming left turning lanes at junctions was one of the most surprising things in the design.

They are living in so much fear of disrupting traffic it's unreal. The BRT/bus lanes should be in the centre of the road or in both directions to one side of the road.

xper wrote: »

The amount of lanes shared with all other traffic in the city centre will destroy any hope of maintaining headway when there is any sort of traffic congestion and the reduction in general traffic lanes throughout would seem to make such congestion more likely.

The way they were talking before, I'm actually surprised by the level of segration in the city centre. But yes, still poor in places.

bk · 17-10-2014 3:27pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

BRT buses will only be able to go as fast as the bus in front of it. The time saving from offboard ticketing will be cancelled out by sitting behind DB buses at stop while passengers fumble with change.

Before you comment, I'd recommend you go read the report and look at the maps, because you clearly haven't.

If you had, then you would know that BRT stops are directly in the bus/brt lane, while DB stops are going to be in laybys indented in off the bus lane.

Thus BRT will be able to drive by stopped DB buses without leaving the bus/BRT lane.

Given this I expect significant times improvements due to much improved dwell times and less stops, along with other improvements (e.g. just fixing the bottle kneck at the cat & cage will make a big difference). Certainly 10 to 15 minutes improvement at peak times seems very possible along this route.

xper · 17-10-2014 8:47pm

bk wrote: »

...BRT stops are directly in the bus/brt lane, while DB stops are going to be in laybys indented in off the bus lane.

Thus BRT will be able to drive by stopped DB buses without leaving the bus/BRT lane...

This will work IF there is only one non-BRT bus attempting to access a recessed bus stop at a time but DB don't maintain headway well and I'd have real concerns in Westmoreland St in particular where it would be impossible to stagger the arrival of buses on multiple routes - is the distribution of stops sufficient? We don't know this without knowledge of the reconfiguration of non-BRT routes, if indeed anyone has examined that at this stage.

monument · 17-10-2014 9:14pm

xper wrote: »

This will work IF there is only one non-BRT bus attempting to access a recessed bus stop at a time but DB don't maintain headway well and I'd have real concerns in Westmoreland St in particular where it would be impossible to stagger the arrival of buses on multiple routes - is the distribution of stops sufficient? We don't know this without knowledge of the reconfiguration of non-BRT routes, if indeed anyone has examined that at this stage.

The bus stop bays seem to generally have space for 2-3 buses, and there's 6 spaces on Westmoreland St.

AlekSmart · 17-10-2014 9:43pm

monument wrote: »

The bus stop bays seem to generally have space for 2-3 buses, and there's 6 spaces on Westmoreland St.

Yes,but equally no mention of Dublin Coach-CityScape-Morton-Dualway-Dublintours-Aircoach/Cork-The Tour Train,or any of the multitude of vehicle types which are today allocated space on Westmoreland St.

As you noted in an earlier post,the amount of shadow boxing around the RE-allocation of available Roadspace is unreal,almost as if they hope nobody will notice.

All that is required is a Clear Unequivocal statement of Administrative Intent to the effect that Private Motor Traffic accessing the City Centre will now be significantly Impeded AND cost a damn sight more than today !!

All we need is a suitably motivated Spokesperson.....Micheal O 'Leary to the nearest red telephone......:eek:

xper · 17-10-2014 10:07pm

monument wrote: »

The bus stop bays seem to generally have space for 2-3 buses, and there's 6 spaces on Westmoreland St.

I think you're wrong there. While there are no explicit dimensions given, I'm pretty sure that each indicated stop allows room for one triple-axle bus to pull in parallel to the stop kerb and pull out again. The ability and practice to enter and exit the stop without blocking the bus/BRT lane will be critical.

Have Irish transit bods ever given consideation to sawtooth bus stop layouts (much used in California)? It takes up more street width but does encourage more order at locations where multiple routes converge.

monument · 17-10-2014 10:20pm

xper wrote: »

I think you're wrong there. While there are no explicit dimensions given, I'm pretty sure that each indicated stop allows room for one triple-axle bus to pull in parallel to the stop kerb and pull out again. The ability and practice to enter and exit the stop without blocking the bus/BRT lane will be critical.

Have Irish transit bods ever given consideation to sawtooth bus stop layouts (much used in California)? It takes up more street width but does encourage more order at locations where multiple routes converge.

Yes, you're right. The 2-3 part isn't right as a general amount and it's mostly one outside the city centre.

Shedite27 · 18-10-2014 10:01am

IS there any reason the BRT couldn't take the luas route/line from Dorset Street to Harcourt Street? If the luas line was built like that around Harcourt Street, the bus could drive on the line and if the scheduling was done correctly, they could re-use the route, saving road space and speeding up transit time for the BRT.

monument · 18-10-2014 11:41am

Shedite27 wrote: »

IS there any reason the BRT couldn't take the luas route/line from Dorset Street to Harcourt Street? If the luas line was built like that around Harcourt Street, the bus could drive on the line and if the scheduling was done correctly, they could re-use the route, saving road space and speeding up transit time for the BRT.

Because the Luas route goes via some very confined spaces and there will be long trams, taxis, buses, cars acceding parking,bicycles, vans and trucks making deliveries and people on foot fighting for the space.

MGWR · 18-10-2014 8:20pm

Calina wrote: »

16 does not just serve city centre and not all of its stops are on the proposed BRT route even north side.

I have severe issues with BRT - their own documentation says it will be over capacity on day one. Really, they should stop pussy footing around and build the metro and have done with it.

If the metro were to have sufficient capacity on the order of DART, I'd say go for it. (Should have Luas Line B connected to it and converted to metro as well, to get rid of that infernal tramway on Harcourt that they still want to extend across the city on the surface to the dangerous Broombridge station.)

CIE has been advertising "bus rapid transit" in one form or another for over half a century. When they surreptitiously ripped out the rails on the Harcourt Street Line (only to put them back in at about three times the cost, for a slower mode than what was on there originally), there were plans to convert that alignment to BRT.

cgcsb · 24-10-2014 1:50pm

The NTA's website could do with updating, it's still showing pre-consultation maps. Does anyone here know, is it anticipated that this route will move to development stage and then when completed the next route, or will they be in development simultaneously.

If there is ongoing construction along 5 major road corridors into the city at the one time, I can only imagine the calls to Joe Duffy.

LXFlyer · 24-10-2014 1:55pm

cgcsb wrote: »

The NTA's website could do with updating, it's still showing pre-consultation maps. Does anyone here know, is it anticipated that this route will move to development stage and then when completed the next route, or will they be in development simultaneously.

If there is ongoing construction along 5 major road corridors into the city at the one time, I can only imagine the calls to Joe Duffy.

No - they are working on one route at a time.

cgcsb · 24-10-2014 6:49pm

So we'd be looking at the mid 2020s before the 5 routes are in place. By which time they may have exceeded their design capacity.

liamog · 24-10-2014 7:50pm

I wonder if they've focussed on the Swords BRT first to focus on Metro North, NTA are meant to be reviewing Dart Underground and MN with a view to one of them being funded.

Swords BRT doesn't have much headroom according to the published figures and would quickly reach capacity, this makes the case for MN stronger.

LXFlyer · 24-10-2014 7:55pm

cgcsb wrote: »

So we'd be looking at the mid 2020s before the 5 routes are in place. By which time they may have exceeded their design capacity.

What do you mean 5 routes?

There are only 3 planned:
Swords - Earlsfort Terrace
Blanchardstown - UCD
Clongriffen - Rathfarnham

cgcsb · 24-10-2014 8:38pm

lxflyer wrote: »

What do you mean 5 routes?

There are only 3 planned:
Swords - Earlsfort Terrace
Blanchardstown - UCD
Clongriffen - Rathfarnham

I meant along 5 radial corridors obviously

LXFlyer · 24-10-2014 9:31pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I meant along 5 radial corridors obviously

No they will be done route by route.

cgcsb · 25-10-2014 12:48am

lxflyer wrote: »

No they will be done route by route.

Yes, which still takes us into the mid 2020's for completion

That username is already in use. · 25-10-2014 4:42pm

cgcsb wrote: »

So we'd be looking at the mid 2020s before the 5 routes are in place. By which time they may have exceeded their design capacity.

Exactly, which is why they should put that €600m towards Metro North assuming DU is already in the bag.

monument · 26-10-2014 9:11pm

That username is already in use. wrote: »

Exactly, which is why they should put that €600m towards Metro North assuming DU is already in the bag.

DU isn't in the bag at all. But is more likely to go ahead regardless.

Metro North looks to be dead with BRT and the option Luas BXD extended to Dublin Airport via Finglas and a small section of Metro West route.

But I hope I'm wrong, I'd be a supporter of the BRT concept, but the NTA plans are QBC with express buses. It's not BRT as most know it.

Swiftway - Dublin's first bus rapid transit route - detailed plans released

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