FTP - Functional Threshold Power....how big is yours!!

Fair play pappa smurf!

Miles Embarrassed Ubiquity wrote: »

What I do have are a very particular set of skills; skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you. If you let smurfette go now, that'll be the end of it. I will not look for you, I will not pursue you. But if you don't, I will look for you, I will find you, and I will kill you!!

To bring this thread back on topic. The next time i am out cycling with you Tunney and you are busting a gut at 90% FTP on efforts lugging that spare tyre around i will remind you that i am enjoying life with 10% less effort whilst singing the smurfs tune:)

One of these might be handy

tunney wrote: »

FTP Test
10 easy
5x(30sec build, 30sec easy)
5min TT
10 easy
20 min TT
10 easy

Is everyone doing their FTP testing with this format or are there other ones in existence?

How about turbo resistence?
Are you going as hard as you can pace yourself over the time?

amphkingwest wrote: »

Is everyone doing their FTP testing with this format or are there other ones in existence?

How about turbo resistence?
Are you going as hard as you can pace yourself over the time?

Best effort 5 minute test - ignoring the fact there is a t20 after
Best effort 20 minute test.

Self selected cadence for both

Recovery leggings are going into the freezer first.

El Director wrote: »

So......:D

Ah here! No pressure!

It's done and my legs are pure and utterly toasted. I'm actually surprised considering I've only once been on a bike since Galway in September. Anyway, as I'm Polar I need to export my file and upload to Training Peaks and I can't do that til tomorrow, dongles are in work, sorry!

I might need help interpreting the file though, see how it goes tomorrow.


ElD, you'll have to show us yours now with your new PM.

User|Starting FTP|Current FTP|Watts/kg|Target FTP|Target Watts/kg|Test|Unit
Jackyback|298watts|278watts|4.08|320watts|5.00|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max PM
NWM2|285watts|327watts|3.9|310watts|3.7|40k TT|Powertap SL+
pgibbo|232watts|260watts|3.56|300watts|4.35|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max PM
Fazz|255 watts|270.75 watts|3.99|300 watts|4.4|T5+T20*0.95|Computrainer
Nerraw|216 watts|216 watts|3.33|280 watts|4.3|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
shotgunmcos|318 watts|325 watts|4.23|330watts|4.4|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
RedB|230 watts|230 watts|2.55|290 watts|3.5|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
BennyMul| 253 watts |231 watts |3.3|270watts|4|T5+T20*0.95|Powertap SL2+
Bobblehead_jr|345 watts|345 watts|4.9|390 watts|5.6|T5+T20*0.95| iBike iPro
Macanri|237 watts|237 watts|3.22|?280watts|4.0|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow T2200
Bambaata|322 watts|338 watts|4.29|345?watts|4.54|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max PM
dx22|239 watts|257 watts|3.51|300watts|4.28|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow T2200
d4r3n|189 watts|210 watts|3.68|240 watts|4.0|T5+T20*0.95|Powertap
tunney|270 watts|270 watts|3.55|350 watts|5.14|T5+T20*.95|SRM
couerdelion|252 watts|280 watts|2.69|315 watts|3.50|T5+T20*.95|Cycleops Magneto + Trainer Road
bryangiggsy|221 watts|253 watts|3.24|290 watts|3.84|T5+T20*.95|SRM


Finally got round to redoing my FTP test. Tyre pressure and trainer flywheel set up the same as last time and did the 20 min test off trainer road which is slightly different than Tunney's suggested in that there is only a 5 min rest between 5min and 20 min TT efforts, but it's programmed in and easy to follow:

10 mins easy build
3 x (1 min high cadence, 1 min easy)
5 mins easy
5 min TT
5 min easy
20 min TT
10 min easy

The 3rd quarter was the most difficult and around 13 minute mark I thought I was gone. Last 5 minutes picked it back up again and ended up with an average of 295 (*.95 = 280.25).

http://tpks.ws/2wH3

couerdelion wrote: »

Cheers as an absolute figure it's ok. As a watt per kg I'm way down on every one else , which is why, when the roads go up, I go backwards :mad:




I didn't manage a great deal over the 20 min in the 5 min test but no, that's my 5 min max effort and set a new 5 min max record for me over the 2 months or so I've been measuring. Although as I managed to get higher towards the end perhaps I could have gone harder - didntt feel like it at the time. I guess I've more of a diesel engine that only revs so high but keeps going rather than a revvy petrol one

The numbers are nice, what is your w/kg
imo (and may be wrong:)) but I would work on your VO2 efforts, as Piggbo said the FTP and these are close and this will hinder improvement in your ftp score.

couerdelion wrote: »

Cheers as an absolute figure it's ok. As a watt per kg I'm way down on every one else , which is why, when the roads go up, I go backwards :mad:




I didn't manage a great deal over the 20 min in the 5 min test but no, that's my 5 min max effort and set a new 5 min max record for me over the 2 months or so I've been measuring. Although as I managed to get higher towards the end perhaps I could have gone harder - didntt feel like it at the time. I guess I've more of a diesel engine that only revs so high but keeps going rather than a revvy petrol one

Going to call utter bull$hit on this. You didn't go all out - either because you wanted to posted a higher T20 or because you wussed out. T5 and T20 are just not that similar. And even if they were it would suggest should a screwed up fatigue profile that you should probably use closer to 0.8 as your multipler.

couerdelion wrote: »

Really. You took the effort to write that why exactly? Does trying to belittle someone make you feel better about yourself? And before you start with another rant about reach arounds this isn't anything with not being able to accept criticism - if you had have said "$hit power to weight" I'd have agreed.

At 6ft 4 and 104kg you think that 280 is an overstated FTP for me (not forgetting my last test where you said 252 was also overstated) and that I'm going to come on a messageboard expecting kudos with a power to weight ratio of 2.69 (which puts me as untrained in Coggans chart). I've also posted my actual test figures and not just posted with a result like other have who's results you've not questioned. Surely if I wanted to look good I would just write "tough test tonight - 400watts new FTP..."

You know as well as I do how the 0.95 calculation is arbitary / isn't accurate for everyone and you'll probably agree that the only real test of FTP is an actual 1 hour test. Who knows Friels double your body weight and do a few additional calcs to estimate could be more accurate for me in which case I'm well over 400... or my actual FTP could be just what was tested. It's only a number.

In any case without knowing anything else or asking any question to try and clarify you come on and call bull**** like the caricature you seem to be turning into. Still I'm sure you'll clarify your thinking with an "IMO" and use that as your scientific basis for why someone can't have a peak 5 min TT only a few % higher than a 20 min TT. It's not unprecedented for me to be a bit one paced - my 5km run time is about 4% faster per km than my 1/2 marathon time. Or perhaps that's bull**** too.

In the end none of the figures here matter when looked at in isolation. It's races that matter.

Why did i take the time to write it?

If you are going to be your training on power zones and you have overstated your ftp it's to your detriment. What your figure for ftp to is, your weight is, your height is, is all really irrelevant. What is important is the lack of difference between T5 and T20.

I've had lads post similar numbers and differences in T5 and T20. I have them a weeks rest and got them up to test in my shed with me standing over them. Surprise, surprise their test results were rather different.

What your numbers are really only matter to you but I've seen the effects of trying to hit sessions and zones based of over started ftp. It's not pleasant.

Based on what you've said about weight and power to weight then I'd suspect the issue is an inability to suffer rather than deliberately inflating ftp.

As you say the only results that actually matter are race results but your training could be much more enjoyable if based of more accurate training zones.

I'd like to apologise to everyone for my posts yesterday, I was obviously having a bad day and as such I'd appreciate if everyone could redact their memories and pretend I led with the below instead:

"Wow great testing. Some numbers, nice 20 minute numbers. What really jumps out though is that you are obviously some sort of super powerful diesel engine with not much of a top end. Crying shame because if you could combine a bigger top end with your unique ability to sustain such a high percentage of your T5 in your T20 you'd be an absolute animal.

Whats obvious as well is that you obviously have a huge capacity to suffer as given your FTP is almost 90% of your T5 your L4 and L5 sessions must be an absolute killer. Respect.

Yours in hugs.
Tunney

peter kern wrote: »

Otherwise,when you dodnt have anger issues - i am happy to help you out in those moments to make you feel better about yourself- i would appreciate if you quote me correctly.

Ah right, and this accurately quoting - is that going to work both ways now???

How does this new fangled yoke compare with Conconi's 'Onset of Blood Lactic Accumulation'(OBLA) or 'Anaerobic Threshold'?

1) How soon back to training would you do a T20 test?
2) Whats your favourite sessions or sessions you've found has brought on FTP the most?
3) If FTP on the bike was the priority for 10 weeks, easy swims and runs alongside, and you were going to do 3 sessions (Tu/Th/Sa) 1-1:30hr a session, how would you spend them for 10 weeks? i.e. interval length, % of FTP, how often re-test...

duffyshuffle wrote: »

1) How soon back to training would you do a T20 test?

ASAP really, you want to set up your zones accurately. So I would do it after a couple of weeks.

duffyshuffle wrote: »

3) If FTP on the bike was the priority for 10 weeks, easy swims and runs alongside, and you were going to do 3 sessions (Tu/Th/Sa) 1-1:30hr a session, how would you spend them for 10 weeks? i.e. interval length, % of FTP, how often re-test...

If you're looking for recommendations, that really depends on your state of development. If you are a relatively lower level athlete then lots of near-threshold work is needed. If you are a relatively well-trained athlete, then threshold work tends to have less effect, and you may need relatively more VO2max-level work.

I'll guess you are closer to the former than the latter, as are most of us. A good plan was suggested on Slowtwitch years ago. From memory:

Day 1: 2 x 20 @ 95% FTP, 5 min recovery
Day 2: 1 x 20 @ 100-105% FTP
Day 3: Rest or easy
Repeat

Every 2nd week, drop the 1 x 20 @ 1-5% FTP, and substitute 5x5min @ 110-112% FTP as VO2max intervals.

The above could work very well. Again, it very much depends on your capabilties. You may not be at the level yet of 2 x 20 at 95% FTP, and you may need to start at 3 x 12 for example and work up.

Alternatively, you may decide to do a 'VO2max' block over the space of a few weeks, in between 2 blocks of threshold work.

It's quite dependent on yourself, and a lot of people don't seen to get this.

Nwm2 wrote: »

ASAP really, you want to set up your zones accurately. So I would do it after a couple of weeks.



If you're looking for recommendations, that really depends on your state of development. If you are a relatively lower level athlete then lots of near-threshold work is needed. If you are a relatively well-trained athlete, then threshold work tends to have less effect, and you may need relatively more VO2max-level work.

I'll guess you are closer to the former than the latter, as are most of us. A good plan was suggested on Slowtwitch years ago. From memory:

Day 1: 2 x 20 @ 95% FTP, 5 min recovery
Day 2: 1 x 20 @ 100-105% FTP
Day 3: Rest or easy
Repeat

Every 2nd week, drop the 1 x 20 @ 1-5% FTP, and substitute 5x5min @ 110-112% FTP as VO2max intervals.

The above could work very well. Again, it very much depends on your capabilties. You may not be at the level yet of 2 x 20 at 95% FTP, and you may need to start at 3 x 12 for example and work up.

Alternatively, you may decide to do a 'VO2max' block over the space of a few weeks, in between 2 blocks of threshold work.

It's quite dependent on yourself, and a lot of people don't seen to get this.

Cheers, yeah that thread by Flanagan seems a good reference point to use alright, always go back to it. I was just wondering if anyone has actually used that protocol and seen good results. Have you used it or what have you used and how much have you improved over what period of time?
Last year I worked up from 3 x 10... to 2x20, i prefer the shorter ones but thats more boredom than anything
Have you tried doing 2 days in a row as prescribed then day off or have you used easy days in between?
Does anyone do long steady efforts at lower end of sweetspot?

duffyshuffle wrote: »

Cheers, yeah that thread by Flanagan seems a good reference point to use alright, always go back to it. I was just wondering if anyone has actually used that protocol and seen good results. Have you used it or what have you used and how much have you improved over what period of time?
Last year I worked up from 3 x 10... to 2x20, i prefer the shorter ones but thats more boredom than anything
Have you tried doing 2 days in a row as prescribed then day off or have you used easy days in between?
Does anyone do long steady efforts at lower end of sweetspot?

I pretty much used it during the first half of last year, you can see my results in the table above, where I ended up at 327W for a 61 min 40k TT (good power, slow time).

If I recall, I did 4 sessions a week.

As regards sweetspot work, what I am tending to do is one long session per week at the moment. 3-3.5hrs at about 70-75% FTP, with about 1 hr of big gear work at about 80-85% FTP. Not quite traditional sweetspot though.

I can't stress enough that, IMO, the optimal training plan depends on the person and their current capabilities.

tunney wrote: »

Another question is - is FTP the be all and end all? Especially for long distance athletes?

There is a 'fatigue resistance' component, which gets less press.

User|Starting FTP|Current FTP|Watts/kg|Target FTP|Target Watts/kg|Test|Unit
Jackyback|298watts|278watts|4.08|320watts|5.00|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max PM
NWM2|285watts|327watts|3.9|310watts|3.7|40k TT|Powertap SL+
pgibbo|232watts|260watts|3.56|300watts|4.35|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max PM
Fazz|255 watts|287 watts|4.31|300 watts|4.4|T5+T20*0.95|Lemond/Quarq
Nerraw|216 watts|216 watts|3.33|280 watts|4.3|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
shotgunmcos|318 watts|325 watts|4.23|330watts|4.4|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
RedB|230 watts|230 watts|2.55|290 watts|3.5|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
BennyMul| 253 watts |231 watts |3.3|270watts|4|T5+T20*0.95|Powertap SL2+
Bobblehead_jr|345 watts|345 watts|4.9|390 watts|5.6|T5+T20*0.95| iBike iPro
Macanri|237 watts|237 watts|3.22|?280watts|4.0|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow T2200
Bambaata|322 watts|338 watts|4.29|345?watts|4.54|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max PM
dx22|239 watts|275 watts|3.48|300watts|4.0|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
d4r3n|189 watts|210 watts|3.68|240 watts|4.0|T5+T20*0.95|Powertap
tunney|270 watts|270 watts|3.55|350 watts|5.14|T5+T20*.95|SRM
couerdelion|252 watts|280 watts|2.69|315 watts|3.50|T5+T20*.95|Cycleops Magneto + Trainer Road
bryangiggsy|221 watts|253 watts|3.24|290 watts|3.84|T5+T20*.95|SRM
Briando|233 watts|233 watts|2.98|280 watts|3.58|T5+T20*.95|Power2Max



This was a few weeks back in early Dec after a couple easy weeks returning from break.
Honestly hoped for more but realised after i hadnt done any proper work in a couple months.
Hopeful that my t5 increase can be matched for t20 this year as on the Dec t20 I didn't increase by near as much % as t5.

Close enough to my original goal watts/kg but that has since moved on now too.
BMC must be close on 5+ last year I'd say, probably more this year no doubt.

And yes, depth is the main area and utilising as much of FTP without killing the legs for run.

After deliberation by the committee I've figured out that I don't suffer enough but that's about to change.

Months off the bike, coming back from injury blah, blah, blah the only way is up from here. Watch this space!

I do find that you forget how to suffer after time away, at least the hardest one is done, fair play