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Who are more incompetant: Fianna Fail as a government or Fine Gael as an opposition?

  • 09-03-2010 12:18am
    #1
    samsemtex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 935 ✭✭✭


    I really do despair when I think about this country. We have one of the most incompetent governments imaginable in power. Corrupt, interested only in doing themselves and their buddies favors, no leadership. Never making the hard decisions that will do themselves harm. Clueless.

    Then we look across the Dail to see the opposition. Fine Gael. Spineless, devoid of leaders, no ideas that will inspire confidence in the nation. The fact that they are only at 33-35% in the opinion polls when they are facing one of the most disatrous governments in years says it all. They are a joke. We dont have any Obama like belief that any of the parties can change things. The only reason you would vote Fine Gael is because they arent Fianna Fail. Thats it.

    What a depressing political landscape. Its so depressing thinking about a general election. We vote and one of the two of them will be in power. I shudder to think of what this country will be like in 5 years.


Comments

  • #2
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Yes. It's depressing.

    The only possible light we have is that FG are less corrupt, and throw out their corrupt members.

    And to be honest, that isn't really good enough.

    But at least it's better than what we have at the moment.


  • #3
    samsemtex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 935 ✭✭✭samsemtex


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    But at least it's better than what we have at the moment.

    Is it really though? I mean, i don't really think they could be any worse but I really really don't see them as being better.

    I dont see a single shining light in that party that makes me think "If he was in charge things mights be better"


  • #4
    freewheeler
    Registered Users Posts: 301 ✭✭freewheeler


    samsemtex wrote: »
    Is it really though? I mean, i don't really think they could be any worse but I really really don't see them as being better.

    I dont see a single shining light in that party that makes me think "If he was in charge things mights be better"
    While i partly agree with you, I really dont believe that we could be worse off as this FF led government has absolutely no credibility left at this stage. I really cant believe that some people actually believe that we could be somehow better off with them still in power? Its absolutely staggering i think that they could be even considered worthy leaders of this country considering their disasterous performance to date. This country is on its knees at the moment and will only get worse unless we get rid of these incompetent clowns ASAP.


  • #5
    Sulmac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭Sulmac


    samsemtex wrote: »
    I dont see a single shining light in that party that makes me think "If he was in charge things mights be better"

    Richard Bruton is one of the few politicians I have time for. Another experienced member of the party would be James Reilly (at least within regards to his portfolio - Health).


  • #6
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    samsemtex wrote: »
    I dont see a single shining light in that party that makes me think "If he was in charge things mights be better"

    I don't see any "shining light" either....

    But I'd be a little happier if the party supposedly running the country drew a line under the likes of Ahern and O'Donoghue and O'Dea and said "end of condoning all sorts of shennanigans and circling the wagons......this will no longer be tolerated".

    It wouldn't solve the problems that they landed us in, but it'd be an improvement.

    And given that FF accept the support of the FG reject Lowry, that's why I can at least accept the fact that FG are better than FF.


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  • #7
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    I don't see any "shining light" either....

    But I'd be a little happier if the party supposedly running the country drew a line under the likes of Ahern and O'Donoghue and O'Dea and said "end of condoning all sorts of shennanigans and circling the wagons......this will no longer be tolerated".

    It wouldn't solve the problems that they landed us in, but it'd be an improvement.

    And given that FF accept the support of the FG reject Lowry, that's why I can at least accept the fact that FG are better than FF.

    Are you betting that Fine Gael wouldn't take Lowry's support to get a majority coalition?

    amused,
    Scofflaw


  • #8
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Are you betting that Fine Gael wouldn't take Lowry's support to get a majority coalition?

    Interesting question, and would I accept that if it meant getting rid of FF ?

    Under normal circumstances, no.

    But these aren't normal circumstances.

    Plus the fact that FG were too quiet on the O'Donoghue issue means that they're definitely not perfect.

    It still doesn't change the fact that they'd be better.

    So I'd have to lower my standards, I guess......

    ...at least if Lowry was the only skeleton, instead of the current Lowry + Ahern + O'Donoghue + O'Dea - plus Trevor "I'm not leading the Greens in with FF (and hopefully ye'll read that one way while I mean it the other)" Sargent - it'd still be the lesser of two evils.


  • #9
    me_right_one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭me_right_one


    50/50 I'd say. Sinn Fein are the only ones with their heads screwed on. They'll never get the support though.


  • #10
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    The reason FG are not higher in opinion polls is because there is 25 percent die hard no matter what FF supporters and then quite a lot of people like the OP who cant get on board with the idea of backing an alternative, people still need convincing. Its like being lost in a house, opening a door and finding a toilet, now you'll never get out unless you try some of the other doors, yeah they may not be exits but you know whats behind the toilet door so stop goddamn opening it! We dont know whether the opposition will be incompetent in government. We do know FF are incompetent. Also FG have many good ideas and at least some hint of a policy on job creation and maintenance. FG aren't higher than 35 percent because people like the OP doubt them, and people like the OP doubt them because they are not doing better than 35 percent. Like Liam says, they are not perfect, they may not even be that great but it has to be obvious that they are better than the current lot


  • #11
    Soulja boy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 328 ✭✭Soulja boy


    There has been no distinction between the two parties in years. Our government is a dog chasing its own tail.


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  • #12
    Rb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭Rb


    Why not become the Obama of Ireland, OP? Why not form a party you believe would be good for the country, if you see no real opposition party?

    Oh, of course, it's so much easier to sit at the computer and moan. Typical of the 200x+ Irish person. So many come here for a soapbox, full of great sounding rants yet aren't willing to lift the finger themselves.


  • #13
    me_right_one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭me_right_one


    Rb wrote: »
    Why not become the Obama of Ireland, OP? Why not form a party you believe would be good for the country, if you see no real opposition party?

    Oh, of course, it's so much easier to sit at the computer and moan. Typical of the 200x+ Irish person. So many come here for a soapbox, full of great sounding rants yet aren't willing to lift the finger themselves.


    You're not getting away with that. Do you personally know the OP? They could be a senator or indepandant political campaigner for all you know. Typical of the 200x+ Irish person? How dare you. List the things YOU have done to rescue our country


  • #14
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    me_right_one wrote: »
    50/50 I'd say. Sinn Fein are the only ones with their heads screwed on. They'll never get the support though.

    Sorry....it has to be said.

    Whatever about the sickening actions of some FF members that get condoned by their colleagues, at least they don't have members collecting murderers from prison.

    FF condone and excuse a lot, but I reckon even they would draw the line at that one.


  • #15
    28064212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,818 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    It's irrelevant how incompetent Fine Gael may be. Fianna Fail get voted in again, and it's the Irish nation saying that it's ok to govern badly, screw up the country, have one set of laws for the politicos and one for everyone else, allow developer friends away with anything and ruin the health service, it's grand, we're going to vote you back in anyway. If FG do turn out to be as bad as FF (although it's hard to see how they could even approach the levels of cronyism allied with stupidity that FF continue to display), then I'll be the first one voting against them. And I'll do the same if another useless shower shows up. Voting FF back in is giving them a carte blanche to do whatever they like

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  • #16
    samsemtex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 935 ✭✭✭samsemtex


    Rb wrote: »
    Why not become the Obama of Ireland, OP? Why not form a party you believe would be good for the country, if you see no real opposition party?

    Oh, of course, it's so much easier to sit at the computer and moan. Typical of the 200x+ Irish person. So many come here for a soapbox, full of great sounding rants yet aren't willing to lift the finger themselves.

    And what exactly do you know of me to make this judgement call? No doubt you are a member/supporter of one of these two parties...


  • #17
    View
    Registered Users Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    me_right_one wrote: »
    50/50 I'd say. Sinn Fein are the only ones with their heads screwed on. They'll never get the support though.

    Well, I didn't notice SF having problems with Peter Robinson when it emerged that he failed to report - as he was legally obliged to do - Iris Robinson for failing to declare her interest in council business (i.e. the awarding of the cafe license to her lover), failing to declare the receipt of money etc. Likewise, they didn't have a lot to say about Gerry Adam's brother either until the story broke.

    They make the other parties' politicans seem positively virtuous.


  • #18
    Rb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭Rb


    me_right_one wrote: »
    You're not getting away with that. Do you personally know the OP? They could be a senator or indepandant political campaigner for all you know. Typical of the 200x+ Irish person? How dare you. List the things YOU have done to rescue our country
    How dare I?

    Soap boxing is typical of the 200x+ Irish person and sorry if that's a truth you're afraid to face. I've been reading this forum for years and we've had so, so many people start threads about how bad the gubberment are and how awful the opposition is, how we need change, how we need an Obama here, how they're all the same etc etc.

    It's not only here we face it too. You go down to the pub or into a taxi and you get the same crap. Lots and lots of talk with no action, which as I said is typical of the 200x Irish person. We had people here recently claiming it was time for a revolution and hoping people would take to the streets, did they do anything but talk about it? Of course not. Why? Because they're the typical 200x Irish person.

    Rescue our country? Well, I personally have given up my free time to canvass for a party that I believe in and have stood at the doorsteps for hours on end talking to these armchair warriors whos online bark is worse than their personal talking voice ever will be. The sheer level of lunacy I witnessed first hand from anti-lisbon moaners (not campaigners because, as we know, its easier to moan than to do something) last time around was frightening. I even had a man, middle of the day, come to the door in a pair of pants and nothing else and start going mad at me about the Lisbon Treaty and New World Order when all I was there to talk about was the local elections and the replacement of Seamus Brennan.

    I wouldn't mind but it's the same mindless drivel over and over and over. People repeating the same bs they've heard from their ignorant friends down the pub or from a taxi driver that somehow gained influence over their opinions. Oh, Richard Bruton should be the leader of Fine Gael (when asked why they never have an answer), Enda Kenny is an awful leader (when asked for examples or perhaps to explain the growth in support for Fine Gael from the time of Enda's take-over, they never have an answer), oh Brian Cowen is an awful Taoiseach (never an answer), Brian Lenihen should be Taoiseach (never have an explanation for this one either) etc etc etc.

    So at least I do something other than sit here ranting about it and never lifting my finger, which is something I know a lot here do, but the majority starting these threads don't.

    There is literally no point in this thread that hasn't been said by another hundred people who never explained themselves afterwards, and I've pulled people up on it countless times before too, the most recent example I have being this which received a very intelligent reply. This thread has such low content, and is pure soapboxing as I said previously, that it is more befitting of AfterHours or another low brow forum than a dedicated Politics forum, where people can bark along in agreement "Yearr, the gubberment are bad! O'bama 2010!" without remorse or fear that they may actually have to explain themselves one day.

    And sure if they do, they always have their weak arsed pub-argument-gained drivel that we hear so often.
    samsemtex wrote:
    And what exactly do you know of me to make this judgement call? No doubt you are a member/supporter of one of these two parties...

    I could be a member of Sinn Fein and I'd say the same thing. The problem isn't what you say about the parties, I don't particularly care for that as it's nothing I haven't heard 100 times from a taxi driver and I don't see how I insinuated that I took issue with what you were saying about the parties in itself.

    Anyway, don't let me interfere any longer with your AfterHours-esque rant, I'm sure you have loads more generalisations and cliches to throw out there so by all means let me step aside and let you address your audience once again.


  • #19
    zootroid
    Registered Users Posts: 784 ✭✭✭zootroid


    Given the spectacular collapse of our economy, and the wasted billions even when times were good, I'm going to say Fianna Fail.


  • #20
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    me_right_one wrote: »
    50/50 I'd say. Sinn Fein are the only ones with their heads screwed on.

    you being sarcastic right :cool:
    me_right_one wrote: »
    They'll never get the support though.

    thank god


  • #21
    maynooth_rules
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,505 ✭✭✭maynooth_rules


    This bloody country. We have a shambles of a government that is screwing us from every angle, and yet so many people use the tired excuse that the opposition is no better. They have not been in power for over a decade. Surely they have done enough in recent years to deserve their chance over the most incompetent, inept and downright useless government in the States history. Whenever Fine Gael disagree with anything Fianna Fail say, many people say that they are disagreeing just for the sake of it:confused:. They have been quite capable is opposition, but there is only so much that the main opposition party can do. If so many of the electorate are quite happy to be ****ed over by current mob, and then still return them in the next election, then there is little FG can do. Keep in mind that there is about 25% of the electorate that are staunch FF, will vote for them come what may and will never ever even think of voting FG. That is simply what is wrong with the country. This tribalism, vote with the family ****e that we have to put up.

    Personally in my government I want my Minister for Health to be a Doctor, and not a woman qualified in Modern Studies. I want a Minister for Finance to be an Economics graduate, not a Barrister emersed in nepotism. Finance and Health are of most importance to me, and Id prefer a party like FG in power than FF because of what I have just pointed out.


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  • #22
    RepublicanEagle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 399 ✭✭RepublicanEagle


    Who is more incompetent?We the people of Ireland,are the most incompetent. We voted FF back in even with all the evidence mounting that they have been embezzling our money,squandering it,giving themselves pay rises.

    Now we are complaining that we need to change the government,but nothing is being done,and before someone asks me;What party am I in,what have I done bla bla bla.I am a member of the Socialist Party in Ireland and I am a Youth Cub volounteer. The lack of enthusiasmm and motivation the majority of Irish people to do something about this government and their policies is a disgrace,I go out canvassing and protesting and making people more politically aware,but that is not enough.A lot of people here need a good kick up the h*le.

    The heroes of 1916 would be turning in their graves not just at the government,but also at us for not standing up to them and casting them down.


  • #23
    samsemtex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 935 ✭✭✭samsemtex


    Hmmm...i think the recent poll with Fine Gael at their shockingly low level shows there was some validity to this thread.


  • #24
    galwayrush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    FF have done immense damage to the country, FG have not..


  • #25
    samsemtex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 935 ✭✭✭samsemtex


    galwayrush wrote: »
    FF have done immense damage to the country, FG have not..

    That wasnt the question. I asked who are more pathetic. As you said FF have done immense damage to the country and FG cant even get a significant advantage in the polls. To be that low on support when your main enemy is doing worse than ever and has lost complete confidence from the electorate really says something.

    (dont anyone start accusing me of preferring to have a FF govt btw because I wouldnt. I would much prefer FG in power but i happen to think both are a joke.)


  • #26
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    Rb wrote: »
    How dare I?

    Soap boxing is typical of the 200x+ Irish person and sorry if that's a truth you're afraid to face ....
    etc. etc

    Does the rest of your party have such a low opinion of the people of this country?


  • #27
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    maynooth_rules wrote: »
    This bloody country. We have a shambles of a government that is screwing us from every angle, and yet so many people use the tired excuse that the opposition is no better

    And that is the problem with FG. They blame "the country" for their poor showing in polls.
    Surely they have done enough in recent years to deserve their chance over the most incompetent, inept and downright useless government in the States history

    Yet again the "surely we would be better than that lot" argument.
    This is not good enough and indicative of weak opposition. The public see this and respond to it. See results of latest poll/

    They have been quite capable is opposition, but there is only so much that the main opposition party can do. If so many of the electorate are quite happy to be ****ed over by current mob, and then still return them in the next election, then there is little FG can do

    You didnt show yourselves to be competent in the run-in to the last election. Your policies were all over the place and you came across as clueless. eg Kenny v Ahern debate.

    Your pact with Labour resulted in a FF versus FG campaign and back to the ancient battle lines. Vitally this meant that people could not defect in droves from FF to Labour as should have happenned. Your pact with Labour effectively ensured that FF were returned to power. You played safe, you got a larger proportion of the vote which got the party back to its former size. In effect because of the disastrous Noonan campaign (in opposition) you decided to play safe the last election and handed FF power yet again.
    Keep in mind that there is about 25% of the electorate that are staunch FF, will vote for them come what may and will never ever even think of voting FG. That is simply what is wrong with the country. This tribalism, vote with the family ****e that we have to put up.

    Both Civil war parties are guilty of this ofcourse.
    Personally in my government I want my Minister for Health to be a Doctor, and not a woman qualified in Modern Studies. I want a Minister for Finance to be an Economics graduate, not a Barrister emersed in nepotism.

    I would prefer the Minister's in question to be experts who are not TDs. These roles are too vital. to have a politician in charge.
    Finance and Health are of most importance to me, and Id prefer a party like FG in power than FF because of what I have just pointed out.

    What have you pointed out?

    FG lost the last 3 elections because of the stupid Irish electorate.
    FG appear clueless in opposition because there isnt a lot they can do.
    Why cant the stupid Irish electorate see this?
    Oh yeah thats partly because 25% of FF supporters vote tribally implying that this tribalism doesnt exist in FG- that they must "put up with it".

    Im afraid people sense this arrogance and contempt from FG. You and FG wiill have to do better.. a lot better.


  • #28
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    In answer to the OP's question Who are more incompetent: Fianna Fail as a government or Fine Gael as an opposition?

    Its Fianna Fail by a long shot.

    They have created hardship for nearly all the citizens of this state from people whose only crime was to want a home over their heads. They have put an extra 250,000 people out of jobs and on the breadline. They have brought back the atmosphere where emigration is the only real possibility of a future for our best and brightest young people and they have lumbered the next generation still in school with an unbelievable amount of debt because of their extreme misgovernance of the country.

    Just because FG haven't got a charismatic leader in some peoples eyes doesn't mean that they should be discounted. They are the only people to throw out new ideas like a partial list system and abolishing that failed politicians talking shop the Seanad to begin with.

    FG are certainly not responsible for the mess we are in.

    That falls squarely on the shoulders of FF Brian Cowen and his predecessor Bertie Ahern.

    They are the ones who allowed the economy over heat when it was obvious to all that it needed to be brought under control.

    They are the ones who inflated the bubble even more when it was obvious it needed to be deflated.

    They are the ones who have lost 250,000 people their jobs.

    They are the ones who when times were good failed to ensure the Public Service became more streamlined and efficient. Instead they created a bigger millstone around the neck of the country to buy votes.

    Do not be deflected by all this spin aimed at the FG leadership, FF need to be punished and they need to be punished hard come the next election even if they do by a miracle turn the economy around. They need to spend time in opposition to reflect on the misery that they created with in this country for an awful lot of its citizens.

    FF in Government is poison for the countries well being the sooner everyone realises this the better.


  • #29
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    I think this thread exposes a relatively common Irish attitude - diluted or misplaced objections to actions.

    If a thug breaks into your house, robs you, and a Garda stands opposite telling him to stop but not actually doing much, then chances are that the discussion in the pub afterwards will be about the "f&*king useless Garda", not about the thug who had no right to ruin your life.

    FG are weak, that's for sure, but the fact is that they've challenged most of this Government's dodgy actions and gotten nowhere. Maybe some of that is indeed because they're half-hearted and don't want to have to sort out FF's mess, but the bottom line is that FF are responsible for their mess, and FG shouldn't have to be acting mammy to a spoilt teenager who won't clean his room or act responsibly.
    samsemtex wrote: »
    That wasnt the question. I asked who are more pathetic.

    The thread title doesn't say "pathetic"; it says "incompetent".

    So to answer the question, FF - by a long shot.

    That said, I don't think they're "pathetic", because they act in their own interests and get away with it......mission accomplished. As someone said elsewhere, they're playing games with politics because they know no different, and it's ruining people's lives and livelihoods.


  • #30
    dan_d
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    Actually, as an aside and to put it in perspective, I was speaking to a colleague recently who's South African...we were discussing recession, jobs etc and he said it's a pity things have come to this, Ireland's a good place to live. To which I replied "yeah it's not bad, we could do without the corrupt politicians though".
    He smiled wryly at me and told me you find them everywhere. It was only afterwards that I realised that was a stupid statement to make to a man from South Africa - we are still better off than a lot of other countries in the world.
    I know it's off point, but it made me stop and think, even if it was just for a minute.


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  • #31
    ROS123
    Registered Users Posts: 428 ✭✭ROS123


    To me this is a no brainer. FG have done no wrong, FF have ruined this country for generations to come.

    My gut reaction, is that if FF were wiped out it would be good thing for the country. Thats not going to happen because 25% of the country will vote for FF because their families did before them, regardless of the harm they do. They seem oblivious of the harm even if it affects them directly, I know staunch FF people who have suffered in the last 2 years ,and who will blindly go out the next time and vote FF.

    My considered opinion, is that no party should stay in government for a prolonged period ie. more than two full terms. This only encourages corruption, coziness with the senior Civil Servants and it removes them too far from the reality of real life.

    Rotate them, by that I mean vote them out, don't leave them in there for 20 years. How do we know how good or bad FG will be, they haven't had a chance.


  • #32
    Dob74
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dob74


    ROS123 wrote: »
    To me this is a no brainer. FG have done no wrong, FF have ruined this country for generations to come.

    My gut reaction, is that if FF were wiped out it would be good thing for the country. Thats not going to happen because 25% of the country will vote for FF because their families did before them, regardless of the harm they do. They seem oblivious of the harm even if it affects them directly, I know staunch FF people who have suffered in the last 2 years ,and who will blindly go out the next time and vote FF.

    My considered opinion, is that no party should stay in government for a prolonged period ie. more than two full terms. This only encourages corruption, coziness with the senior Civil Servants and it removes them too far from the reality of real life.

    Rotate them, by that I mean vote them out, don't leave them in there for 20 years. How do we know how good or bad FG will be, they haven't had a chance.

    FG have shot themselves in the foot again.
    There guns should be pointed out, not in at each other.
    If Bruton wins he doesnt appear to want to change any major party policies.
    So it will only be a different manager. After they are finished kniving each other in the back there will be two winners.
    Cowen and the countries next leader Eammon Gilmore.
    What the people backing Bruton think they are going to accomplish I dont know. But they will make Labour the country's largest party.


  • #33
    Breezer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭Breezer


    Dob74 wrote: »
    FG have shot themselves in the foot again.
    There guns should be pointed out, not in at each other.
    If Bruton wins he doesnt appear to want to change any major party policies.
    So it will only be a different manager. After they are finished kniving each other in the back there will be two winners.
    Cowen and the countries next leader Eammon Gilmore.
    What the people backing Bruton think they are going to accomplish I dont know. But they will make Labour the country's largest party.
    This is what I don't understand. Bruton drafted quite a number of Fine Gael's recent policies - of course he agrees with them! According to nearly all of Fine Gael's detractors (apart from the genuine left wingers), Kenny has been the problem all along, not policy. Why would there suddenly be any major shift in policy?


  • #34
    Dob74
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dob74


    Breezer wrote: »
    This is what I don't understand. Bruton drafted quite a number of Fine Gael's recent policies - of course he agrees with them! According to nearly all of Fine Gael's detractors (apart from the genuine left wingers), Kenny has been the problem all along, not policy. Why would there suddenly be any major shift in policy?


    Personally I dont think Kenny is the problem. After a centre right government for 13 years the voters want a left wing gov.
    If Bruton is elected it will give a short boost to FG. But give it 6 months they will be back to where they are now. Switching leaders wont do much, look what happened when Noonan got rid of Bruton. They will still face the same problem, they are much the same as FF.


  • #35
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Ah but Dob a lot of us are happy with the policies that FG are coming out with especially reform of the government from my own personal point of view. It is clear that an awful lot of people have discomfort with the man leading the party. If that changes then I expect Labours showing will drop and maybe even FF's will go below 17%.

    Cowen may get off the hook now but given that FG are more than likely going to change leadership to a more popular candidate then this is the nightmare scenario for FF. Their "Enda" buffer is now gone. Also if Kenny is ousted at his bad rating what are the sheep in FF doing leaving Cowen in at an even lower rating. It is obvious to everyone now that the so called Rothweiler of FF has turned out to be a Sheep in Wolves Clothing. How long will the Parliamentary party of FF let that continue because if FG change leadership the hiding that FF are lining up at the next General Election looks like it will be more severe.

    Interesting days indeed.


  • #36
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Agreed.

    As pointed out on Vincent Brownes programme on TV3 last night by Fionnan Sheehan...Enda Kenny was on the news at one last week and had to have a minder prompting him with the answers and worse the minder could be over heard ...swiftly followed by Kenny parroting out what he was spoon fed.

    And we have Dr Reilly on the radio this morning defending this man??

    What a joke..how could we elect a buffoon like that??!!

    What was exposed on the radio last week was what we all suspected anyway that Kenny is neither on top of his game or capable.
    You'd have someone else with the strings on the puppet.Someone unelected.


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  • #37
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Deleted User wrote: »
    What a joke..how could we elect a buffoon like that??!!

    What was exposed on the radio last week was what we all suspected anyway that Kenny is neither on top of his game or capable.
    You'd have someone else with the strings on the puppet.Someone unelected.

    Hmmm.......

    Reading that just makes me wonder what your opinion of Cowen is.

    Or is the position of "muppet that we don't want in charge because we now know that they're incapable" an exclusive one ?


  • #38
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    gandalf wrote: »
    Cowen may get off the hook

    NO WAY should he get off the hook.

    If he does (and he already has in the media coverage this week) then I won't be forgiving Bruton for a long time!


  • #39
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    NO WAY should he get off the hook.

    If he does (and he already has in the media coverage this week) then I won't be forgiving Bruton for a long time!

    Read what I wrote he may get off the hook now. Everyone knows that there is a snowballs chance in hell of the motion of no confidence passing. Everyone in Government and supporting the government are hanging on for dear life now. If there was General Election called an awful lot of bloated snouts would lose their place at the trough. They all know this.

    Unless something comes out of the woodwork (and it will have to be a massive something) that the Greens cannot ignore this Government are in place until 2012.

    The bad news for FF is if FG sorts out its leadership and linked communications issues then that 17% could shrink even more. If they leave it too late to address the issue of the most unpopular and ineffectual Taoiseach in the history of the state then it could be a terminal blow for the organisation.


  • #40
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    gandalf wrote: »
    Read what I wrote he may get off the hook now.

    I appreciate that there was no suggestion that you wanted him to get off the hook, and I agree that the timing of this is chronic, and may let him off the hook if the media focus is anything to go by.

    I was just pointing out that - if this happens as a result - it is completely wrong.

    Next week would have been plenty of time to push Kenny.

    The only logical explanation would have been if Bruton was sure that the motion would work, triggering a General Election this week, and needed to be in place for that; this, as you correctly pointed out, is doubtful, because those who are in power have shown that they will do anything to hang on to it.

    But that would be the only logical reason for a push this week.

    Anything else and it's unforgiveable to not delay it until next week.


  • #41
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    Breezer wrote: »
    This is what I don't understand. Bruton drafted quite a number of Fine Gael's recent policies - of course he agrees with them! According to nearly all of Fine Gael's detractors (apart from the genuine left wingers), Kenny has been the problem all along, not policy. Why would there suddenly be any major shift in policy?

    I started a thread 'After Kenny is gone' to try and probe this. I wanted to find out if the people saying Kenny was a stumbling block were the type of people who'd never vote FG anyway. Unfortunately most people misunderstood my aim and began debating Kenny as leader. Kenny HAS apparently been the problem all along, his leadership wouldn't have stopped me voting FG, but for those who claimed it would have, many seem to suddenly be revealing 'other' problems they have with voting FG


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  • #42
    transylman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 602 ✭✭✭transylman


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    I appreciate that there was no suggestion that you wanted him to get off the hook, and I agree that the timing of this is chronic, and may let him off the hook if the media focus is anything to go by.

    I was just pointing out that - if this happens as a result - it is completely wrong.

    Next week would have been plenty of time to push Kenny.

    The only logical explanation would have been if Bruton was sure that the motion would work, triggering a General Election this week, and needed to be in place for that; this, as you correctly pointed out, is doubtful, because those who are in power have shown that they will do anything to hang on to it.

    But that would be the only logical reason for a push this week.

    Anything else and it's unforgiveable to not delay it until next week.

    You don't think that Kenny might have gotten wind of this attempted coup and decided to schedule the cowen no confidence motion this week in an attempt to stave it off.

    In any case, the outcome of this no confidence vote is not in doubt. FF and the greens are going to hang on for as long as possible. Until then FG need to present themselves as a credible alternative, something that they failed to do while Kenny was in charge. Bruton would seem to be ideal for the countries current predicament, a highly qualified economist who has written a thesis on Irelands public debt.


  • #43
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    transylman wrote: »
    You don't think that Kenny might have gotten wind of this attempted coup and decided to schedule the cowen no confidence motion this week in an attempt to stave it off.

    The facts don't support that. It was the release of the two banking reports that gave Kenny the necessary credence for what the dogs in the street knew.

    So unless Kenny caused the banking reports to be rushed through, the above doesn't stack up.


  • #44
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    Liam the timing was decided by the Irish Times Poll. Unfortunately Enda tabled the motion of no confidence too early. He should have let things fester a bit more as the reports were digested in more detail. He was premature and the poll coming out has forced things for Richard Bruton (and others yet unnamed in FG). If RB declared his undying loyalty to EK last week and then this Thursday said otherwise his credibility would have been shot. He was honest and has to be commended for that.

    Cowen has not been let off depending on how FG handle this now. If Kenny resigns before the meeting on Thursday and both sides set their differences aside then this will work out very well for FG. Lets see if they can be adult about this.


  • #45
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    gandalf wrote: »
    Cowen has not been let off depending on how FG handle this now. If Kenny resigns before the meeting on Thursday and both sides set their differences aside then this will work out very well for FG. Lets see if they can be adult about this.

    Unfortunately I don't think they'll be adult about it. Supporting Kenny (as O'Reilly and the 4 MEPs and many others are doing) will just damage the party, either way Kenny is irreparably damaged and will eventually go. People can support Kenny privately out of loyalty or whatever but they should vote against him or encourage him to go for the sake of the party and country. Supporting him publicly is betting on a lame horse


  • #46
    limklad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭limklad


    To answer OP question
    My Incompetent scale list

    1/. FG - Can not get it together to oust the most incompetent disastrous FF Irish Government ever in our History. Plus they got their own suicidal buttons despite having more intelligent Politicians. They are still looking back to the old days and reminiscing on the 2 1/2 years of pre Celtic Tiger era government that they were in, rather than coming together and form a real plan rather than individualises plans of ego driven policies.

    2/. FF - Did far worst damage to our economy than the British ever did during their worst years of even the famine did less damage to our economy. Food was still been exported and Farm labourers who grown and reap the food for Land lords were still been fed.

    3/. SF - ?????? Nothing creditability that I can see of yet.

    4/. Independents + Others - Only here to make up the numbers and their own local agendas not the best decision makers for future for the country.

    5/. GP - They actually manage to have a future plan (Good or bad, that is debatable) rather than reacting when it too late compare to FF, and FG when it is too late and the damage is done.

    6/. Labour - They the only large stable Party that managed to keep things together with one major bad decision and that getting into power with FF during Dick Spring era.

    From my list, FG are more Incompetent than FF due to their poor performance in opposition as a group in which they all failed miserably to communicate properly.


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