Eircom fibre for direct to exchange news?

Kencollins · 04-08-2014 7:41pm #1

Hi all,

i was looking at the Eircom wholesale NGA map today, and I noticed that a lot of exchanges now have fibre planned, right at the exchange location.

http://www.eircomwholesale.ie/Our_Network/

Is this possibly good news for the 10,000 or so people who are directly wired to the exchanges and currently stick on ADSL2?

Ken

murphaph · 04-08-2014 7:48pm

Interesting stuff alright. Looks pretty concrete now.

Mr. G · 04-08-2014 8:48pm

YES!!!!

Gonzo · 04-08-2014 9:05pm

its really only good news for those who are up to 1km-1400meters line length from the exchange, after that the signal would be not much different than ADSL2+ speeds.

yomamasflavour · 05-08-2014 7:55am

Instead of wasting money on these exchange cabs, why not just allow those direct fed line customers that want the service to be connected to a nearby cab?

You still have to send out a technician to switch over the customer at the exchange as well as do a home install so it's not as if you're saving much.

Kencollins · 05-08-2014 9:37am

I would imagine the amount of cable pulling through ducts would be immense. Everytime a customer wanted to switch to fibre then an engineer would have to re route the cable to an existing cabinet which could be km's away.

MBSnr · 05-08-2014 11:52am

Gonzo wrote: »

its really only good news for those who are up to 1km-1400meters line length from the exchange, after that the signal would be not much different than ADSL2+ speeds.

True but I dream of the much increased upload....

Gonzo · 05-08-2014 1:08pm

I would think anyone on a direct line who is getting less than 18meg currently won't really benefit much from Fibre, anyone less than 14meg probably are too far from being able to get it at all. Those who currently get 20-24meg would be the ones who will benefit from this alot.

What I would also like to see is Eircom placing ADSL2+ gear into the cabinets that are furthest away from the centre of towns and connect everyone up to 4km away to this, would greatly increase speeds to many people beyond the towns. Im just about 1.8km/2km away from nearest cabinet and not connected to it, but if Eircom were to place ADSL2+ gear to that cabinet I would go from 8meg up to 14, maybe 16meg if Eircom were to do such a thing, Im sure many other people are in the same boat. This to me makes perfect sense as there has to be alot of unused ADSL2+ gear lying around idle right now.

Braytek · 05-08-2014 1:26pm

im confused, im not near a cabinet but am along the line of orange, does that mean anything? I can currently get 7.5mb but haven't seen any decrease in attenuation

murphaph · 05-08-2014 2:14pm

Doesn't mean anything to you no.

Braytek · 05-08-2014 3:11pm

murphaph wrote: »

Doesn't mean anything to you no.

Glad to hear, thought maybe for a change something good would come out but thankfully not

Praetorian · 05-08-2014 5:20pm

This is good news although it is expected. If they enable all exchanges at the same time then a huge number of lines will come on stream at the same time.

It's really good news for business's as they tend to be limited by adsl 1 / 2+ upload speeds. I know my company is severely hampered by having to have 3 adsl lines. A direct fiber link is priced too high to be affordable for sme's. VDSL will solve a lot of our problems.

dalta5billion · 05-08-2014 6:07pm

Praetorian wrote: »

It's really good news for business's as they tend to be limited by adsl 1 / 2+ upload speeds. I know my company is severely hampered by having to have 3 adsl lines. A direct fiber link is priced too high to be affordable for sme's. VDSL will solve a lot of our problems.

Do you do bonding with eircom or via your own VPN? I was thinking of getting a second line in and doing VPN bonding with the two VDSL lines.

MBSnr · 06-08-2014 12:50pm

Just to expand on the OP - I just noticed that if you select nothing (on the map status) and zoom in you can see the all the cabs including the ID's in the local exchanges. They are listed as XXX1_EXX whereas the VDSL street cabinets are listed as XXX1_XXX. Most larger towns have them listed as planned.

Johnboy1951 · 06-08-2014 2:18pm

I am presently about 3.5Km from the exchange and getting an average 4.5 to 5Mb/s download, & ~0.37Mb/s upload.

I see from the map there will be a cabinet (sometime in the future) about 2Kms from me.

Hopefully this will mean a considerable improvement in speeds .... hopefully

Thanks MBSnr for the tip about the map

sparky63 · 06-08-2014 10:36pm

Looking at the map, it looks like its the fibre core network from the main data centres to the various exchanges. Not seeing anything that points towards direct fed lines.

ED E · 06-08-2014 10:47pm

sparky63 wrote: »

Looking at the map, it looks like its the fibre core network from the main data centres to the various exchanges. Not seeing anything that points towards direct fed lines.

The dots on the exchanges themselves (as this in an NGA map) indicate DF lines being planned. Also the E on the ASAM ID.

bk · 07-08-2014 12:14pm

Gonzo wrote: »

What I would also like to see is Eircom placing ADSL2+ gear into the cabinets that are furthest away from the centre of towns and connect everyone up to 4km away to this, would greatly increase speeds to many people beyond the towns. Im just about 1.8km/2km away from nearest cabinet and not connected to it, but if Eircom were to place ADSL2+ gear to that cabinet I would go from 8meg up to 14, maybe 16meg if Eircom were to do such a thing, Im sure many other people are in the same boat. This to me makes perfect sense as there has to be alot of unused ADSL2+ gear lying around idle right now.

From what I've heard, Eircom are using different and newer gear and tech for the direct feed lines and that it seems to be performing at the very least as good as ADSL2+ and in many cases better then ADSL2+ at distances greater then 2km.

So it seems that it maybe cheaper and easier for Eircom to ignore ADSL2+ all together and instead go straight to VDSL2 at all exchanges.

- Those living within 2km of the exchange get high speeds, particularly helpful for small businesses, community centers and schools in small towns and villages.

- Those living more then 2km from the exchange will get ADSL2+ speeds or better, a potentially big welcome jump for these people who might be stuck on ADSL1 at the moment.

- Probably cheaper for Eircom to just install, manage and maintain this new VDSL gear, then trying to move old ADSL2+ gear between exchanges.

A win win for everyone.

Gonzo · 07-08-2014 12:27pm

bk wrote: »

From what I've heard, Eircom are using different and newer gear and tech for the direct feed lines and that it seems to be performing at the very least as good as ADSL2+ and in many cases better then ADSL2+ at distances greater then 2km.

So it seems that it maybe cheaper and easier for Eircom to ignore ADSL2+ all together and instead go straight to VDSL2 at all exchanges.

- Those living within 2km of the exchange get high speeds, particularly helpful for small businesses, community centers and schools in small towns and villages.

- Those living more then 2km from the exchange will get ADSL2+ speeds or better, a potentially big welcome jump for these people who might be stuck on ADSL1 at the moment.

- Probably cheaper for Eircom to just install, manage and maintain this new VDSL gear, then trying to move old ADSL2+ gear between exchanges.

A win win for everyone.

that sounds great, didnt know the tech would be a bit different than what is available in the cabinets. Im living about 2.1km from the exchange but my line length is about 2.8km. Im currently getting downstream of 9272Kb and upstream of 670kb.

When the exchange is upgraded (it's down for a fibre upgrade on the map), will I likely see any sort of speed increase when it goes live?

Another thing Ive noticed is that over the past 3 days the KN vans have been going up and down my road, but they seem to be just replacing telephone polls and installing newer ones which seem to have small boxes on them, dunno if this means anything tho.

Also does this mean that Eircom are abandoning ADSL/ADSL2+ altogether and people on direct fed lines will be moved to fibre regardless of the speed they get and receive new modems etc?

MBSnr · 07-08-2014 2:30pm

bk wrote: »

.
- Those living more then 2km from the exchange will get ADSL2+ speeds or better, a potentially big welcome jump for these people who might be stuck on ADSL1 at the moment.
.
A win win for everyone.

I'm 2.5Km from the exchange on ADSL1.... ADSL2+ speeds imagine - whooo hooo! This sounds promising..... Let's hope Eircom deliver this

Praetorian · 08-08-2014 1:56pm

dalta5billion wrote: »

Do you do bonding with eircom or via your own VPN? I was thinking of getting a second line in and doing VPN bonding with the two VDSL lines.

Actually nothing too complicated

currently our setup is

one adsl connection for email server
one adsl connection for general use / web browsing / wifi
one adsl connection for remote users

Vdsl will change what we can do and how we can do it

I'm looking forward to very fast transfers for remote users (some international). Very fast email for increasingly larger attachment sizes. Overall improvement in responsiveness and usability.

I'm thinking about using two vdsl lines, load balancing them somehow and seeing if offsite backup over the net can replace tapes (finally)

bk · 08-08-2014 2:59pm

Praetorian wrote: »

I'm thinking about using two vdsl lines, load balancing them somehow and seeing if offsite backup over the net can replace tapes (finally)

If you decide to do that, I'd recommend you use two different companies (e.g. Eircom and Vodafone).

While obviously they will be sharing infrastructure at a local level (phone line, VDSL cab, probably fibre between the cab and the local POP/exchange), so you won't get any benefit there, at least they use different networks at the national and international level, including routing and peering, so you would benefit from some greater redundancy if one of them suffers issues or congestion at these levels.

Praetorian · 08-08-2014 3:58pm

Good advice BK! Just need a good network specialist to set it up

(when the time comes).

dalta5billion · 08-08-2014 4:12pm

Praetorian wrote: »

Good advice BK! Just need a good network specialist to set it up (when the time comes).

This guy does it using VPN's so that any single TCP connection can get 2x bandwidth, but alternatively as bk says if you load balance TCP connections across two different carriers you can get redundancy, and potentially 2x speeds if you backup using multiple TCP connections.

mobil 222 · 08-08-2014 9:03pm

I am all confused over this 'direct line 'stuff now.

Earlier this year in Sligo 12 new combinations of both copper and fibre cabinets were set up bringing all direct lines

into these .

Some cabinets were set up within 1 km of the local exchange while others were set up on areas more than 3 kms from

the exchange

I think that this means fibre connections for business and homes within 500 mtrs from exchange

Praetorian · 08-08-2014 9:21pm

dalta5billion wrote: »

This guy does it using VPN's so that any single TCP connection can get 2x bandwidth, but alternatively as bk says if you load balance TCP connections across two different carriers you can get redundancy, and potentially 2x speeds if you backup using multiple TCP connections.

That sort of solution is cool, but I would worry about the complex nature of the setup causing issues. Down time is a total pain and the last thing I need on a busy day is to be tracing down a unique and possibly unsolvable bug!

Ethernet over vdsl could also be interesting! We are right beside our exchange so we should get good speeds if eircom finish the trial and release for sale!

kaizersoze · 08-08-2014 10:25pm

Praetorian wrote: »

That sort of solution is cool, but I would worry about the complex nature of the setup causing issues. Down time is a total pain and the last thing I need on a busy day is to be tracing down a unique and possibly unsolvable bug!

Ethernet over vdsl could also be interesting! We are right beside our exchange so we should get good speeds if eircom finish the trial and release for sale!

Amen to that.

MBSnr · 11-08-2014 11:10am

MBSnr wrote: »

Just to expand on the OP - I just noticed that if you select nothing (on the map status) and zoom in you can see the all the cabs including the ID's in the local exchanges. They are listed as XXX1_EXX whereas the VDSL street cabinets are listed as XXX1_XXX. Most larger towns have them listed as planned.

I see that a lot of Mayo has cabinet IDs listed in the exchanges now (And as posted in another thread the Eircom fibre map has been updated to reflect this). I guess it's just an oversight on the map but my local exchange doesn't have a cab listed for some reason....... :eek:

Simi · 11-08-2014 9:38pm

Damn, still nothing for Strandhill. The map is certainly filling out nicely however.

timmydel1 · 20-08-2014 12:09am

Eircom proposal to Comreg for changes in regulations to allow VDSL in exchanges.

http://www.comreg.ie/_fileupload/publications/ComReg1472.pdf

SpaceTime · 22-08-2014 10:40am

What I don't want to see is exchange-launched VDSL being sold as "e-fibre" as it's not FTTC by any means, it's just an upgrade to ADSL really.

If you're in the immediate vicinity of the exchange, you'll get a good speed, but a lot of homes around this area of Cork City for example wouldn't benefit from this at all.

Most of the non e-fibre homes are in quite large 1940s/50s housing estates where all the phone line distribution is underground (i.e. no cabinets, just large breakout points in underground vaults where the lines are connected, I assume).

Those developments are a good 1.5 to 3km from the exchange, some would be even further. I would expect that applies in many urban areas in places cabinets didn't exist. For example, most of Crown Alley's footprint in Dublin 1 and 7 would be like that. You're a fairly big distance of wiring from Crown Alley exchange if you're in Stoneybatter for example.

In most of those cases, the VDSL service will be pretty pointless unless it's installed locally in cabinets.

I just wouldn't like to see it being used as one of those permanent stop-gap measures.

They really need to re-organise the copper lines and install cabinets in many of those areas.

ED E · 22-08-2014 10:44am

SpaceTime wrote: »

What I don't want to see is exchange-launched VDSL being sold as "e-fibre" as it's not FTTC by any means, it's just an upgrade to ADSL really.

Dont see the difference really, plenty of people on 12Mb eFibre from cabs, lots of DF lines would get more than that. The name already means 7-100Mb.

Johnboy1951 · 22-08-2014 10:45am

SpaceTime wrote: »

What I don't want to see is exchange-launched VDSL being sold as "e-fibre" as it's not FTTC by any means, it's just an upgrade to ADSL really.

If you're in the immediate vicinity of the exchange, you'll get a good speed, but a lot of homes around this area of Cork wouldn't benefit from this at all.

Most are quite large 1940s/50s housing estates where all the phone line distribution is underground (i.e. no cabinets, just large breakout points in underground vaults where the lines are connected, I assume).

Those developments are a good 1.5 to 3km from the exchange, some would be even further. I would expect that applies in many urban areas in places cabinets didn't exist. For example, most of Crown Alley's footprint in Dublin 1 and 7 would be like that. You're a fairly big distance of wiring from Crown Alley exchange if you're in Stoneybatter for example.

In most of those cases, the VDSL service will be pretty pointless unless it's installed locally in cabinets.

If they position the 'cabinet' in the exchange then I expect they can call it FTTC or e-fibre or whatever.

It is no different than a remote cabinet in that respect.

SpaceTime · 22-08-2014 10:47am

ED E wrote: »

Dont see the difference really, plenty of people on 12Mb eFibre from cabs, lots of DF lines would get more than that. The name already means 7-100Mb.

Well, if you were to just abandon the housing estates around here that didn't have e-fibre cabinets or PCP cabinets to exchange-launched VDSL, they'd mostly be about 3km+ from the exchange, rendering VDSL totally pointless. In fact, they'd be better off on ADSL2+

Most of them are actually on UPC though (based on the WiFi router names I've seen on my mobile.)

You're also not talking about the odd house here and there, these would be estates with maybe 200+ homes in some cases.

If you're doing exchange launched VDSL, that's exactly what it is : VDSL. Marketing it as FTTC would be completely misleading as you're not bringing fibre into the local access network at all or moving people any closer to it. It's just enhanced DSL.

I'm not saying don't launch it, I'm just saying that it shouldn't be marketed as "fibre", because it absolutely isn't any more so than ADSL2+ is.

ED E · 22-08-2014 10:53am

SpaceTime wrote: »

Well, if you were to just abandon the housing estates around here that didn't have e-fibre cabinets or PCP cabinets to exchange-launched VDSL, they'd mostly be about 3km+ from the exchange, rendering VDSL totally pointless. In fact, they'd be better off on ADSL2+

Most of them are actually on UPC though (based on the WiFi router names I've seen on my mobile.)

You're also not talking about the odd house here and there, these would be estates with maybe 200+ homes in some cases.

I doubt thats the plan at all. Getting DF going is important for all those business on main streets etc. Right now you have the centre of temple bar with no fibre despite being on Crown Alleys doorstep. Its this kind of fill in they want.

Lines over 1.5KM are better of sticking to ADSL, VDSL probably wont even work for the majority of loops longer than that. Situations like that where there are estates will see new PCP cabs I suspect. I've already seen some apparently brand new cabs appear in the RMS(Rathmines) coverage area where as far as I can tell it was a UG cavity before. This is the logical step but it will require downtime for users and a bit of planning permission.

SpaceTime · 22-08-2014 10:56am

I'd say though if it's being launched it should be something like "Next Generation Broadband Plus" but not "E-fibre"

The only reason I'm bringing this up is that I saw quite a lot of confusing marketing about these kinds of products in Belgium. They're limited to approximately 30Mbit/s (more like 18-20 in reality at best and the distances to exchanges in Brussels wouldn't generally be very long)

murphaph · 22-08-2014 11:31am

To be honest they shouldn't be calling it e-Fibre for any customers. It's a misleading name. Even worse over BT land but no need to emulate everything the UK does even when it's clearly wrong. VDSL in Germany is called VDSL.

Gonzo · 22-08-2014 1:35pm

Im almost 3km by line length to my exchange (currently getting around 9meg). Would I see any speed increase when the exchange is upgraded to VDSL2?

Will the speeds be the same as E-Fibre with the same level of severe degrade in signal over short distances?

Do users on DF Lines continue to use their current ADSL2+ modems or will new modems be needed to connect once the exchange is upgraded to VDSL2?

ED E · 22-08-2014 2:51pm

Gonzo wrote: »

Im almost 3km by line length to my exchange (currently getting around 9meg). Would I see any speed increase when the exchange is upgraded to VDSL2?

Will the speeds be the same as E-Fibre with the same level of severe degrade in signal over short distances?

Do users on DF Lines continue to use their current ADSL2+ modems or will new modems be needed to connect once the exchange is upgraded to VDSL2?

3km is too far, you won't get vdsl if you are direct fed.

Shorter lines get a new socket and modem.

KerrAvon · 22-08-2014 7:34pm

What happens if you're about 3km and on ADSL1 when the exchange gets upgraded to VDSL?

ED E · 22-08-2014 7:56pm

KerrAvon wrote: »

What happens if you're about 3km and on ADSL1 when the exchange gets upgraded to VDSL?

You stay on adsl1/2+

sparky63 · 22-08-2014 10:43pm

Fibre from the exchange is far more cost effective than re routing direct fed lines into a cabinet. Planning permission for three cabinets, cable connections, fibre equipment, power not to mention the cost of civils work. Then a mass of objections, the direct fed underground distribution point would be on a footpath, how many people will want 3 cabinets outside their premises. Being too far away from the exchange is no different from being too far away from a cabinet.
Placing vdsl into cabinets brought huge increases in speed to many people, similarly efibre in the exchange will do the same. Without doubt huawei and alcatel have a lot of aces up their sleeves to increase the reach and increase the attainables over copper to levels everyone of us 2 years ago would have laughed at. Vectoring, lets not forget is still in its infancy of implementation but you can be sure not in its development and that's before pair bonding and phantom mode technology is utilised. One very promising thing that is happening in the background is that a lot of other operators with this provider and the regulatory body from what i read are sitting around the table and that shows a lot of confidence from a lot of institutions in the way things are progressing in this development.

dbit · 07-09-2014 1:27pm

Exchange variant of the comreg rules state that for vdsl on the direct fed is limited to 2. xx Mhz where as the cabinets can run at 17.xx mhz so the exchange/direct fed runs will be terrible, this is to ensure not too much line noise is generated in the exchange and not causing impact to other LLUs in existence in each exchange, so the poster who states that eircom need to introduce more cabinets is correct this direct fed will turn out to be a joke in terms of speed and qual of service.

SpaceTime · 07-09-2014 1:47pm

They'll have to just cabinetise the direct fed lines eventually anyway.

In areas with UPC and with the upcoming ESB fibre to home services, eircom will just be waving bye bye to a huge number of customers if they don't keep up.

Exchange launched VDSL isn't really much of a solution. It'll be a slight improvement but nothing Spectacular.

It's possibly very cheap too. The logical thing would be to upgrade existing ADSL2+ DSLAMs. For all we know some of the newer ones might even support VDSL with firmware updates or minor tweaks.

It is possible that this will be an Alcatel rather than Huawei solution.

They might be able to do it with a few new cards into existing experiment.

I just don't think they should be allowed to sell it under the same name as FTTC products, particularly given the bandwidth limitations it'll have to cope with.

dxhound2005 · 07-09-2014 2:18pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

They'll have to just cabinetise the direct fed lines eventually anyway.

In areas with UPC and with the upcoming ESB fibre to home services, eircom will just be waving bye bye to a huge number of customers if they don't keep up.

Exchange launched VDSL isn't really much of a solution. It'll be a slight improvement but nothing Spectacular.

It's possibly very cheap too. The logical thing would be to upgrade existing ADSL2+ DSLAMs. For all we know some of the newer ones might even support VDSL with firmware updates or minor tweaks.

It is possible that this will be an Alcatel rather than Huawei solution.

They might be able to do it with a few new cards into existing experiment.

I just don't think they should be allowed to sell it under the same name as FTTC products, particularly given the bandwidth limitations it'll have to cope with.

Whatever about the ESB, Eircom won't be losing huge numbers to UPC. Anyone that wanted UPC will have it already in the limited areas it serves. Eircom get criticised a lot for not providing fibre to rural areas but UPC escape any criticism eventhough the have no presence at all in some counties. They are both commercial companies with a need to make money so neither will go where there is no profit.

SpaceTime · 07-09-2014 2:32pm

What I'm trying to say is I think it would be very misleading to sell it as equivalent to e fibre or as e fibre if it isn't.

timmydel1 · 09-09-2014 4:50pm

Gonzo wrote: »

Im almost 3km by line length to my exchange (currently getting around 9meg). Would I see any speed increase when the exchange is upgraded to VDSL2?

Will the speeds be the same as E-Fibre with the same level of severe degrade in signal over short distances?

Do users on DF Lines continue to use their current ADSL2+ modems or will new modems be needed to connect once the exchange is upgraded to VDSL2?

You're getting around 9meg 3km from exchange!!! I am about 500m from my exchange and my line can barely hold 6meg, and I have constant sync cuts. 2 eircom engineers have checked my line and found no problem! Must be chicken wire running from my house to exchange:mad:

MBSnr · 24-09-2014 11:45am

bk wrote: »

From what I've heard, Eircom are using different and newer gear and tech for the direct feed lines and that it seems to be performing at the very least as good as ADSL2+ and in many cases better then ADSL2+ at distances greater then 2km.

Have you heard any more news on this bk? Are there any reports of anyone on direct fed exchange lines getting VDSL with a line length of over 2Km?

mailsanchu · 24-09-2014 2:32pm

I think eircom is planning to do this from October 2014.

Nolars · 24-09-2014 2:37pm

bk wrote: »

From what I've heard, Eircom are using different and newer gear and tech for the direct feed lines and that it seems to be performing at the very least as good as ADSL2+ and in many cases better then ADSL2+ at distances greater then 2km.

So it seems that it maybe cheaper and easier for Eircom to ignore ADSL2+ all together and instead go straight to VDSL2 at all exchanges.

- Those living within 2km of the exchange get high speeds, particularly helpful for small businesses, community centers and schools in small towns and villages.

- Those living more then 2km from the exchange will get ADSL2+ speeds or better, a potentially big welcome jump for these people who might be stuck on ADSL1 at the moment.

- Probably cheaper for Eircom to just install, manage and maintain this new VDSL gear, then trying to move old ADSL2+ gear between exchanges.

A win win for everyone.

If im on 3mb ADSL1 would der be much of a bumb on adsl2+ line as my exchange is on the list but im 2 far for vdsl

fbradyirl · 25-09-2014 8:53am

@Nolars I am on 3MB adsl1, and my exchange was upgraded a couple of weeks back.

It has made absolutely no difference to my speed, although I need to call Vodafone to get them to try increasing my profile speed.

Eircom fibre for direct to exchange news?

Comments