Cannabis should be legalized in Ireland To pull Our country out of ression

Kama · 15-09-2009 2:56pm

You will find equal information on paracetamol if you google it but both are reconised medically by doctors and domestically as being suitable in the fighting of pain.

So, if there were robust medical evidence for the efficacy of cannabis, you'd be pro?

weedfreedomtinp · 16-09-2009 1:32pm

kleefarr wrote: »

I'll tell you what! After watching all of that video, I'm now more convinced than I was before. I'm seriously thinking about moving to Canada.

Legalise it for all but Armed forces and police. Sounds a bit facked up but, if they smoked it we wouldn't be able to defend ourselves or keep a modicum of law and order. Funny that. :rolleyes:
I wouldn't mind being the first person to be categorise as dying from a cannabis over dose. :rolleyes:
When will governments cop on? Obviously I'm not in the Union.

if only 1 person understands the video then this post was worth it ,, it will make you open your eyes to em ...

im thinking of moving to Canada my self now lol

weedfreedomtinp · 16-09-2009 1:35pm

Kama wrote: »

So, if there were robust medical evidence for the efficacy of cannabis, you'd be pro?

sure there is loads of evidence but do u think governments listen to evidence ,, i don't , they will do what ever they like and when they like ,, they don't give a crap about people ,, only lining there pockets

big b · 16-09-2009 1:50pm

A bit defeatist I know, but this land of Roses of Tralee, taking the Eurovision Song Contest seriously, prehistoric abortion laws & a far too strong pub owners club is never going to legalise young people having a spliff.

Old fashioned attitudes is what you're fighting, not ignorance

weedfreedomtinp · 16-09-2009 2:19pm

you will find a lot of people now are coming around to cannabis ,, due to having sons, grandsons , daughters . e.t.c smoking cannabis ,

and they seeing that its not actually doing to them , what the horror story's are saying ,,,

i do understand where you are comming from we up against a small minded people ..

thebman · 16-09-2009 2:40pm

TBH a lot of those people are well dying due to old age. In a generation or so, it will be legalised.

Kama · 17-09-2009 10:01pm

In the long run, we're all dead. And even witrh a generation, if no one does anything about it, and policy inertia continues, it won't be legal.

In other medical benefits, cannabis may be helpful in preventing damage from binge drinking. More self-medication? :rolleyes:

Brain white matter tracts were “more coherent in adolescents who binge drink and use marijuana than in adolescents who report only binge drinking,” the researchers wrote. “It is possible that marijuana may have some neuroprotective properties in mitigating alcohol-related oxidative stress or excitotoxic cell death.” The scientists noted that such protection has already been shown in lab and animal studies.

Indeed, the U.S. government has a patent on cannabinoids as neuroprotectants.

pagancornflake · 18-09-2009 5:41am

DarkJager wrote: »

In the 9 years I've been smoking it, I have never ever once came across anybody who was depressed from smoking weed, quite the opposite.

I dont know if it counts from across the internet, but consider me the first! I also find it hard to believe that you haven't come across such a person before.

DarkJager wrote: »

People appreciate music more, find humour and something to laugh at in the most stupid things, and then get hungry. What is so demonic about that?

In alot of cases, that is true. However, there is much to be said with regard to several studies which have correlated cannabis use to be correlated with the development of anxiety, psychosis, and depression. I'm well aware of the fact that the causal mechanism hasnt been proven, but I really do not think that it is wise to legalise such a substance until research on this topic has been exhausted.

pagancornflake · 18-09-2009 5:44am

weedfreedomtinp wrote: »

do u think governments listen to evidence ,, i don't , they will do what ever they like and when they like ,, they don't give a crap about people ,, only lining there pockets

Oh come on, thats just naive!

Kama · 18-09-2009 11:53am

However, there is much to be said with regard to several studies which have correlated cannabis use to be correlated with the development of anxiety, psychosis, and depression. I'm well aware of the fact that the causal mechanism hasnt been proven, but I really do not think that it is wise to legalise such a substance until research on this topic has been exhausted.

It's in the nature of science that research is never exhausted. Policy is always to some extent a guess, the only question is whether it's an educated, evidence-based one or not.

Correlation with anxiety etc is hardly surprising, as people will 'self-medicate' with what substances are available to them. I'm aware of studies that show cannabis can be a contributing factor in individuals with predispositions, but I also doubt the 'causal link' that these concerns are the reson for its continued illegality. The anti case tends imho to be more based on scare-tactics and moral panics, and policy inertia, than on evidenced-based policy and medical research.

Getting back to the original economic point, the cannabis industry is an established one, and is unlikely to go away. If there are negative effects, do you think these are likely to be mitigated or worsened in a legal or decriminalised regime? If so, why?

My 'Modest Proposal' would be to go with partial region-specific decriminalization in a part of the country; somewhere in Galway or West Cork where tbqfh near everyone smokes or grows anyway. Allow growth by local producers (who are doing it anyway), and you cut the gang/crime factor out of the equation. Then see what the effects are in 5 years time.

Homegrown industry ftw...

weedfreedomtinp · 19-09-2009 11:51pm

pagancornflake wrote: »

I dont know if it counts from across the internet, but consider me the first! I also find it hard to believe that you haven't come across such a person before.

In alot of cases, that is true. However, there is much to be said with regard to several studies which have correlated cannabis use to be correlated with the development of anxiety, psychosis, and depression. I'm well aware of the fact that the causal mechanism hasnt been proven, but I really do not think that it is wise to legalise such a substance until research on this topic has been exhausted.

lets be honest they legalize a lot worse drugs than cannabis ,, have they ever done long term research affects on methadone ,, but yet its legal ...

and many more drugs are the same .. people just dont understand ,, that pharmaceutical company's are behind this prohibition

because you cant put a copyright on plants but you can on drugs invented by these companys..

ive said enough look at the videos in the listings then you will see proof

RedPlanet · 20-09-2009 10:01am

but I really do not think that it is wise to legalise such a substance until research on this topic has been exhausted.

It's also setting the bar of entry artificially high for cannabis compared to other products.
Take for example health supplements. In the US a person or company can produce and sell their own supplements and the onus on the FDA to prove any side effects to bar their sale.
Which is exactly the opposite position some people are proposing about cannabis.
Good documentary called "Bigger, Stronger, Faster" http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/Jun/27/documentary-about-steroids-is-eye-opener/

weedfreedomtinp · 22-09-2009 9:39pm

as above

bblueblood · 29-09-2009 8:22pm

I wonder has anyone calculated how much it would be worth to the economy if cannabis was legalised, also take into account other crimes which could be prevented if the cops didn't put so much effort into catching cannabis smugglers & dealers saving millions, having to deal with the whole side effects of an illegal industry ie gang wars etc, take into account the fact that if we had 'coffee shops' a lot less people would get polluted on alcohol thus freeing up our hospitals and emergency services saving millions, take the criminal element out of smoking pot and people could use cleaner and healthier pot and wont get the chance of being 'introduced' to other harder drugs thus saving millions on sending people to prision and clinics etc, it would bring in millions in tourism as believe it or not some good people actually prefer a spliff instead of a pint, alot of millions there, not to mention the tax this would provide, it's a no brainer really.
Why should we not be allowed cannabis, its almost harmless and its our own bodies, stoned people are usually harmless too.
Why is cannabis illegal and alcohol not illegal?
Why are the powers that be so hypocritical and ignorant?

kleefarr · 29-09-2009 8:33pm

I would say it's because of power and money.
As a naturally occurring herb it can't be patented and it's power owned.
So the best thing is it to make it illegal.

Silly if you ask me. Could be making loads of cash from it. California worked out that it would make a huge difference to their coffers.

http://californiacannabisinitiative.org/

Souljacker · 29-09-2009 8:52pm

I think it's only a matter of time before it's legalised, it just makes too much sense.

Personally I'd be in favour of legalising all drugs for the sole purpose of cutting the main revenue source of organised crime in this country.

rubadub · 29-09-2009 9:12pm

sold wrote: »

I went to a Cafe in Amsterdam some years ago, so see how they managed legal cannabis.

Cannabis is illegal in Holland, and this is not a pedantic point it is critical to this discussion of how it would make a country money. Cannabis is tolerated and decriminalised in holland, but they are not getting direct tax from the sale of it. Therefore most coffeeshops are inherently likely to be "dodgy places".

sold wrote: »

I sat down in the cafe and accross from me was an English guy who was already stoned. He said if I wanted something stronger than weed that he had contacts. Maybe cannabis does not kill, but its part of a whole industry of drugs and pulls people down.

You could find many dodgy pubs in town where you could meet similar strangers making similar offers. Most people do not take them up on their offer, many cannabis users despise the fact they have to deal with the criminal underworld and do not like being offered other drugs, many cannabis dealers are strictly solely cannabis dealers for this very reason.

sold wrote: »

Smoking three cannabis joints a day causes the same damage as 20 cigarettes because people tend to inhale the smoke for longer to gain the maximum "hit".

Only ignorant idiots would do this, Darwinism at its best, good luck to them. Anybody with a clue knows holding in smoke for longer makes no difference, it does with tobacco though, THC is absorbed almost instantaneously on the lung walls, so there is no point holding it in. Also saying "3 joints a day", is ambiguous, that could be equivalent to 3 bottles of vodka. With high grade hashish a pinhead amount can get you pretty messed up, and it can be vapourised. You can also eat cannabis. Smoking of course is harmful, smoking any dried plant matter cannot be doing you any favours.

sold wrote: »

Why submit healthy human beings to the effects of a drug? (even possible effects?). The profit agenda behind the legalisations of Cannabis will only lead to increased spendature on health services.

They are already doing it, and only the dealers are making money, people will take it legal or not. There are massive savings to be had, even just decriminalisation would free up the millions spent on enforcing the law and housing cannabis prisoners etc

DarkJager wrote: »

There's a list somewhere which orders substances such as Alcohol and narcotics by their level of harm. Believe it or not, cannabis doesn't even make the top 10 but alcohol and tobacco do (places 2 and 3 I think). If I can find it I'll post it here.

That was probably the Lancet medical journal

Research published in the medical journal The Lancet rates the most dangerous drugs (starting with the worst) as follows:
1. Heroin
2. Cocaine
3. Barbiturates
4. Street methadone
5. Alcohol
6. Ketamine
7. Benzodiazepines
8. Amphetamine
9. Tobacco
10. Buprenorphine
11. Cannabis
12. Solvents
13. 4-MTA
14. LSD
15. Methylphenidate
16. Anabolic steroids
17. GHB
18. Ecstasy
19. Alkyl nitrates
20. Khat

Horizon Documentary on it here http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6108672696241807159&ei=kcFkStTmIJWj-AbOpvC0CQ&q#

Joey the lips wrote: »

You will find equal information on paracetamol if you google it but both are reconised medically by doctors and domestically as being suitable in the fighting of pain.

You will see many doctors recognising cannabis as suitable in pain relief. You would also find doctors saying paracetamol would be a prescription only drug if discovered today, if allowed on sale at all.

kleefarr wrote: »

I would say it's because of power and money.
As a naturally occurring herb it can't be patented and it's power owned.
So the best thing is it to make it illegal.

So why is tobacco not illegal using the same logic? It cannot be "patented".

I can only see cannabis being legalised here after being legalised throughout the EU or the US first. Many countries and politicians are scared to make a stand, or be the first, many would probably like to follow in others footsteps (like they do with most drugs), it is easier to explain to citizens that you are just following the lead of others, and that it would be harder to control etc. Most countries drug laws are similar enough.

There are some movements in the US already, California have made a few proposals. You also have police in support Law Enforcement against Prohibition

Cork Boy · 30-09-2009 12:25am

I don't buy into the pharma theory (in ireland today).

Lets be honest, its plain and simple, our politicians always have been and always will be scared sh*tless of the bishops:

Dr Noel Brown Mother & Child Scheme
The Magdelene Sisters & Boy's 'School's - no/minimal sentencing
Divorce Referenda
Abortion Referenda

And here's the nub, its not because they're good Catholics, its becuase the Church own a significant portion (if not majority) of primary schools and hospitals in Ireland.

I dream of being able to buy good, legal weed in a shop, but i'm a pragmatist.

Maybe in 2050

Overheal · 30-09-2009 2:30am

California has been effectively legal for years.

They are also quite bankrupt.

starbelgrade · 30-09-2009 2:39am

Overheal wrote: »

California has been effectively legal for years.

You mean that California was illegal before that?

Pass the doob, dude, that's waaaay out!

Overheal · 30-09-2009 3:02pm

I mean theyve actually been able to tax it for the last number of years. Its done little to stave off California's deficit issues. They are still effectively bankrupt. Too much spending on pet projects like 2 sets of books for every child - which if I heard about this correctly, means every kid has 2 copies of the same book so they dont have to carry them back and forth from school. :rolleyes: Its not like every 3rd mother in cali doesnt have an SUV for their little darling but anyway

D.U.M.B · 01-10-2009 10:13pm

Prohibition is a failure. Lets take the money out of criminal hands, lets stop kids getting easier access to cannabis and lets cut expenditure on enforcing prohibition.

Lets create jobs and income via cannabis and hemp.

Any problems you think that might arise from ending prohibition are already issues and surprisingly ending prohibition will help.

Overheal · 01-10-2009 10:20pm

you realise legalisation will only make it easier for kids to get their hands on cannabis?

Souljacker · 01-10-2009 11:22pm

Overheal wrote: »

you realise legalisation will only make it easier for kids to get their hands on cannabis?

Really? How so? Are you suggesting dealers are more likely to look for ID than shop keepers?

Any Kid who wants to get their hands on cannabis in Ireland can, legalisation simply means you're reducing the chance that teenagers will come in contact with people associated with organised crime.

D.U.M.B · 05-10-2009 3:03pm

Souljacker wrote: »

Really? How so? Are you suggesting dealers are more likely to look for ID than shop keepers?

Any Kid who wants to get their hands on cannabis in Ireland can, legalisation simply means you're reducing the chance that teenagers will come in contact with people associated with organised crime.

Great point

having more younger people smoking is often a worry (obviously) and a prohibitionist's view and thus way of keeping it outlawed but look at the Netherlands and other places with more relaxed laws on cannabis, their rates of younger people smoking are much lower than places like Ireland, USA etc.

When it's prohibited it means its sold to anyone because dealers don't care its all about the money and there's also the rebel feeling among young teens thinking its cool to do cause its illegal.

When your brought up around it walking down the street and seeing a place selling cannabis would feel as normal as seeing a shop. But when your brought up and told not to touch it and hear other ****e about it then some people might be more intrigued.

Spiritoftheseventies · 05-10-2009 4:59pm

weedfreedomtinp wrote: »

Tobacco kills 750.000 per year

Alcohol kills 400.000 per year

coffee kills 4.500 per year

aspirin kills 7.500 per year

Cannabis Kills 0 what you say 0 dont believe me look in google videos for a video called

THE UNION , THE BUSINESS BEHIND CANNABIS ,,,

Its all in it ,,

from professors from Harvard uni and many more top Law official's

THE UNION , THE BUSINESS BEHIND CANNABIS ,,,

when you see the video please comment on this truly

do we have troops in ression?

Moriarty · 05-10-2009 8:32pm

It should be the case that we need a reason to make something illegal, not the other way around. I can't see a single reason why we shouldn't legalise canabis when we've got tobacco and alcohol on sale every fifty feet in any town and city in the country.

Hell, I'd legalise all drugs and have a state-controlled company to produce them. Make available the best current medical advice in relation to each substance, then tax it suitably. It really isn't any of my business if someone wants to ingest something into their bodies as long as they don't cause me or anyone else any harm in doing so.

Increased freedom for citizens and the massive benefit of instantly removing the vast majority of funding for organised crime.

Nick_oliveri · 05-10-2009 11:25pm

Moriarty wrote: »

It should be the case that we need a reason to make something illegal, not the other way around. I can't see a single reason why we shouldn't legalise canabis when we've got tobacco and alcohol on sale every fifty feet in any town and city in the country.

Hell, I'd legalise all drugs and have a state-controlled company to produce them. Make available the best current medical advice in relation to each substance, then tax it suitably. It really isn't any of my business if someone wants to ingest something into their bodies as long as they don't cause me or anyone else any harm in doing so.

Increased freedom for citizens and the massive benefit of instantly removing the vast majority of funding for organised crime.

Yes, and it seems that every single poster cant work out why the drug is still illegal. Its simple, you can promise all the change you want in your campaign but in the end, you, as a politician - will just end up spouting the same rhetoric as the last whore. All because you don't want to seem to be going against the grain.

Just look at Obama, theres a clever chap, so clever and intelligent in fact, that he has a writer write his speeches, the same as every other mook in a suit in the Oval Office. I'm sure he realizes the hypocrisy of it being illegal. But he keeps his mouth shut like every other good boy, hell he probably doesn't even have much input on the policies of his administration!

It doesn't benefit the politician to engage in the drug legislation debate. And it would probably seem like an uphill journey for our politician! People still believe it is dangerous, let them off.

When enough propaganda and ignorance is beat into people this is the result.
And WE are responsible for it.

Moriarty · 06-10-2009 12:11am

Nick_oliveri wrote: »

Yes, and it seems that every single poster cant work out why the drug is still illegal. Its simple, you can promise all the change you want in your campaign but in the end, you, as a politician - will just end up spouting the same rhetoric as the last whore. All because you don't want to seem to be going against the grain.

It's blatantly obvious why it's still illegal - I don't think anyone is under any illusions in that respect.

Nick_oliveri wrote: »

Just look at Obama, theres a clever chap, so clever and intelligent in fact, that he has a writer write his speeches, the same as every other mook in a suit in the Oval Office. I'm sure he realizes the hypocrisy of it being illegal. But he keeps his mouth shut like every other good boy, hell he probably doesn't even have much input on the policies of his administration!

.. lol.. wow...

Nick_oliveri wrote: »

It doesn't benefit the politician to engage in the drug legislation debate. And it would probably seem like an uphill journey for our politician! People still believe it is dangerous, let them off.

When enough propaganda and ignorance is beat into people this is the result.
And WE are responsible for it.

Indeed. The only way that will change however is for people to voice calm and reasoned arguements for it to be otherwise. Eventually it will no longer be a politically taboo subject, in the same manner as any other number of once off-limits 'social issues'.

Nick_oliveri · 06-10-2009 12:39am

Moriarty wrote: »

It's blatantly obvious why it's still illegal - I don't think anyone is under any illusions in that respect.

Is it? (maybe for a minority it is, but for the majority, like a political party, it remains a gray area)

.. lol.. wow...

Wut? Please elaborate. lol @ my ramblings?
http://reason.com/archives/2008/02/04/barack-obama-on-weed

At the same time, no major party presidential nominee has advocated decriminalization (much less legalization) since Jimmy Carter did so in 1976. It would be considered political suicide.

Moriarty wrote: »

Indeed. The only way that will change however is for people to voice calm and reasoned arguements for it to be otherwise. Eventually it will no longer be a politically taboo subject, in the same manner as any other number of once off-limits 'social issues'.

I don't know, I remain unenthusiastic about that prospect. There have been a lot of previous generations that have smoked weed and gotten into power. Theres still the same ignorance and misinformation.

Maybe they believe it sets a trend for legislation across the board.

howyanow · 06-10-2009 12:49am

sold wrote: »

I went to a Cafe in Amsterdam some years ago, so see how they managed legal cannabis. I sat down in the cafe and accross from me was an English guy who was already stoned. He said if I wanted something stronger than weed that he had contacts. Maybe cannabis does not kill, but its part of a whole industry of drugs and pulls people down. Smoking three cannabis joints a day causes the same damage as 20 cigarettes because people tend to inhale the smoke for longer to gain the maximum "hit".

Anyway the Guy i saw high on cannabis was very edgy and anxious, borderline histerical. I think it was a good lesson for me as I did not try any in the cafe. at the back the cafe there was Adult Video rooms.

A lot of people who turn to drugs are depressed and use cannabis pushes people deeper into depression.

Why submit healthy human beings to the effects of a drug? (even possible effects?). The profit agenda behind the legalisations of Cannabis will only lead to increased spendature on health services.

used to tkink it should be legalised however after becoming addicted to it and needing to smoke 3 joints every evening for the best part of two years has left me with depression and an anxiety that i cant seem to understand or shake off,its more dangerous than sum people think,alcohol is bad enough for causing social and family problems so we dont need to have another substance to add to that,i agree that it may help our gang related crime but people will get it whether it legal or not.tough one

thebman · 06-10-2009 12:53am

howyanow wrote: »

used to tkink it should be legalised however after becoming addicted to it and needing to smoke 3 joints every evening for the best part of two years has left me with depression and an anxiety that i cant seem to understand or shake off,its more dangerous than sum people think,alcohol is bad enough for causing social and family problems so we dont need to have another substance to add to that,i agree that it may help our gang related crime but people will get it whether it legal or not.tough one

I don't think it is tough since people will get it either way just legalise. No point in giving criminal records to people that smoke the stuff.

If people are addicted to it then they should stop or seek help, again it will be easier for people to seek help if legalised since they can come forward without admitting they have broken the law.

Nick_oliveri · 06-10-2009 1:07am

thebman wrote: »

If people are addicted to it then they should stop or seek help

http://www.thegooddrugsguide.com/cannabis/addiction.htm

Many users compare their daily cannabis habit with dependency on caffeine.

howyanow wrote: »

used to tkink it should be legalised however after becoming addicted to it and needing to smoke 3 joints every evening for the best part of two years has left me with depression and an anxiety that i cant seem to understand or shake off,

I know this is going to come across as really insensitive but there might just be other circumstances you are not factoring in there. Why did you need to smoke those joints every day?

It has been postulated by various scientists that people with a predisposition to mental disabilities will be at a higher risk of developing these ailments under heavy Cannibis use.

catching_streams · 06-10-2009 1:36am

Moriarty wrote: »

Hell, I'd legalise all drugs and have a state-controlled company to produce them. Make available the best current medical advice in relation to each substance, then tax it suitably. It really isn't any of my business if someone wants to ingest something into their bodies as long as they don't cause me or anyone else any harm in doing so.

Increased freedom for citizens and the massive benefit of instantly removing the vast majority of funding for organised crime.

I fundamentally agree with this post, however effecting an attitude change in Ireland would be incredibly difficult. We have been conditioned for such a long period of time with the message that Cannabis is quite dangerous and harmful, to bring about wide-scale attitude changes and convince people that the pros outweigh the cons here would be a monumental task.

Spiritoftheseventies · 06-10-2009 8:39am

weedfreedomtinp wrote: »

i dont smoke me self just watched a few videos and just came back from amsterdam ,, there is no Recession in that place and they recon it will be the last 1 to fall ,, u should see the amount of stuff going on plus the billions of euros it brings in from just tourism alone ,,, see none of you fellas never watched the video i was talking about

Alcohol kills 400,000 world wide. And there are laws now in place to curb the sale of alcohol and tobacco here.
Seriously OP how can you link Cannabis with our recession?

Overheal · 06-10-2009 2:12pm

Souljacker wrote: »

Really? How so? Are you suggesting dealers are more likely to look for ID than shop keepers?

Thats a ridiculous analogy. You do the math when you increase the number of places timmy can get a dimebag from 5 of his "friends" to 5 of his friends and 50 corner stores.

Any Kid who wants to get their hands on cannabis in Ireland can, legalisation simply means you're reducing the chance that teenagers will come in contact with people associated with organised crime.

By how much? Kids will still be meeting up in back alleys to smoke pot and tobacco and douchebags will still approach them with baggies of E.

Moriarty wrote: »

Hell, I'd legalise all drugs and have a state-controlled company to produce them. Make available the best current medical advice in relation to each substance, then tax it suitably. It really isn't any of my business if someone wants to ingest something into their bodies as long as they don't cause me or anyone else any harm in doing so.

Increased freedom for citizens and the massive benefit of instantly removing the vast majority of funding for organised crime.

Have you learned nothing? You need less government monopoly. Do you think the money is going to go into cancer research or the TDs pocket?

Not to mention how intelligent it is to universally enrage organized crime. I direct your attention at Mexico 2009.

For the terminally ill etc. its a great idea but you're kidding yourself if recreational use won't go up and that crime rates will go down.

Kama · 06-10-2009 6:04pm

Not to mention how intelligent it is to universally enrage organized crime. I direct your attention at Mexico 2009.

Given the choice between deliberately funding organized crime by a guaranteeing a criminal monopoly, and cutting their revenue, I know which way I jump. The argument here seems to be that it will annoy criminal cartels not to be running the drugs, therefore we should do as they say...

For the terminally ill etc. its a great idea but you're kidding yourself if recreational use won't go up and that crime rates will go down.

Reference needed. What's pretty much absent is evidence-based argument for prohibition; are Portugal 'kidding themselves'? Was the post-war British model on heroin, with its consistently-declining addiction rates of addicts 'kidding itself'? Criminalization has had a long run of near-monopoly on policy, and has failed in its supposed goals. Its long time to try different approaches, on a temporary and localized basis, on the purely pragmatic basis of seeing what actually works. Policy homogenity conveniently prevents this.

Overheal · 06-10-2009 7:40pm

The argument here seems to be that it will annoy criminal cartels not to be running the drugs, therefore we should do as they say...

The argument here, is the dumbfounded notion that a government controlled monopoly is a swell idea, is not so swell. Open the field to private enterprise and watch would be criminals open legitimate doors and stores if youre going to legalize it at all.

Reference needed

Indeed. If you want to refute my supposition I direct you to the internet.

genericguy · 06-10-2009 8:17pm

jesus christ, the arguments against are appalling.

weed is dangerous and will kill you - nope. just nope. lets go to A&E this weekend and count how many people are there because they drank too many pints of cannabis...

weed causes you to become psychotic - dubious at absolute best, those most likely to be affected are those with predispositions to mental illness in the first place. alcohol is a major depressant, and if we're honest, is the root of the majority of ireland's ills, i've never heard of a cannabis-fuelled assault, never heard of a husband smoking one joint too many and beating his wife.

the criminals will just do worse things - well, we'll just have to go ahead and spend some of that wonderful hash VAT on some guns for the gardaí and on implementing extremely tough sentences for the bastards. there's no reason the rest of the population should be denied the opportunity to enjoy a natural substance because it might pee off the scumbag gangs.

everybody will end up being stoned all the time because cannabis will be freely available - bzzzzzz, wrong again. alcohol is freely available, and although it does turn a huge number of people into cunts, society as a whole manages to rise above this and people still manage to get to work every day.

A major reason I think it isn't being legalised or even tolerated in this country is because of our government's affinity for the vintners - because i could tell you for damn sure if somebody could stay at home for a smoke and a few take-out beers with their friends, the only people to suffer would be those poxes with the cheek to charge 5 and 6 euro for a pint of piss.

it won't be until our grannies are dead, and people currently in their mid-twenties are the same age as the fcuks in the dail, but it's eventually going to be made legal.

rubadub · 06-10-2009 8:29pm

howyanow wrote: »

used to tkink it should be legalised however after becoming addicted to it and needing to smoke 3 joints every evening for the best part of two years has left me with depression and an anxiety that i cant seem to understand or shake off,

What were you smoking,
A- cannabis -which I do not consider addictive in the medical sense.
B "Irish joints", i.e. cannabis mixed with tobacco -which I consider one of the most addictive drugs going.

Nicotine is recognized by most medical texts as THE most addictive drug known to man, more addictive than crack, methamphetamine, or heroin. That is the % of users who end up addicted, it is not a measure of the harm caused or how hard it is to kick the habit.

It is incredible how ignorant some people are about this fact, it is like the simpsons episode where Mr Burns was undercover pretending to be a hippie, and at the end when he revealed himself and proclaimed "all this time I've been smoking harmless tobacco". I imagine that went straight over the heads of many people. It is bizarre how accepted it is and how people consider the cannabis to be the bad & addictive substance in a "joint" containing the most addictive substance known. It would be like an alcoholic saying he got badly addicted to 7up, lost his job etc to 7up, sure he always mixed it with vodka, but thats irrelevant!

howyanow wrote: »

alcohol is bad enough for causing social and family problems so we dont need to have another substance to add to that,

I think we certainly do need alternative substances for people to have an outlet for their desire to experience altered states of conciousness. Some people have a very strong desire to experience altered states, just like some have large appetites and become obese, or have high sex drives. Some do not and cannot understand this desire. The problem is legally there are very few socially acceptable outlets, so many drink, when they would be better off if they grew up in an environment where alcohol and cannabis were both legal, and had the exact same stigma/acceptance.

This is a problem if it did get legalized, it would still have a stigma, since mammy, the garda, and the local priest all drink to excess, but it is still hedonistic degenerates who smoke/eat threshold amounts of cannabis.

It would be like mcdonalds trying to introduce a lower fat burger, and people going "NOOO, the big macs are bad enough, we don't want them eating more stuff on the menu", it is an alternative, it is not like people will eat the new "safer" burger along with the bad one. Just like if people are smoking AND drinking they tend to drink a lot less, or just smoke instead.

bayviewclose wrote: »

Seriously OP how can you link Cannabis with our recession?

I presume taxation and freeing up massive amounts of taxpayers money used to police "cannabis criminals",

Overheal wrote: »

For the terminally ill etc. its a great idea but you're kidding yourself if recreational use won't go up and that crime rates will go down.

I am not sure of the amount of crime related to simple cannabis possesion, that would be gone, prisons freed up. I am sure the criminals will turn to other things, some illegal some not. Many illegal things are not that profitable so there is only so much room in the market and then criminals might have to turn to more profitable "jobs", which can be legal. I have known a few dealers over the years, some big, some small, some utter scumbags, some not. I remember one of the scumbags was a pretty big dealer, well known in the area, and he was saving up to become a milkman! I was shocked at this, him and his other mates were all discussing it as being a great business, they had all the figures, how they would buy and area from a retiring milkman and get a float etc.

They were just dealing for money, not for a gangster image or anything, if something was more profitable they would move on. Most of them solely dealt cannabis too, knowing the gardai would not be out to get them as much. They saw it as a job, and it did take up a lot of their time, some dropped out to have legitimate jobs, saying there was just not enough money.

I think recreational use would go up if legalised, and I also think alcohol consumption would go down. Smoking slows down most smokers I know, and I see the same in amsterdam.

makemoney · 08-10-2009 9:18pm

What next ? Taxes on the air we breath? Or could we become more acceptable on our laws towards legalization of Cannabis ? and help our recession out of depression ?
WHY ? Well the very truth is Cannabis would net millions yearly for our suffering economy. This is a fact. You would just have to look up the total of cannabis seizures alone for 2009.
The Irish government estimates that there are 800,000 cannabis smokers in this country, around 10% of the adult population..
The government spends between €200-300 million every year to prosecute less than 1% of those smokers and intercept less than 10% of the incoming narcotics. In 2009 alone there has been an estimated over 20 million total of seized cannabis.
Evening Herald Wednesday September 09 2009
A Dutch man has been arrested in connection with an €8 million cannabis seizure at Dublin Port.
If the war against cannabis users were to be won, it would require an annual spend of over €24 billion - more than the entire annual tax take.
Simply removing cannabis from the law enforcement priorities of the state would produce massive savings. The Justice Department would save €109 million per year: the savings for the Gardai alone would be a 58.8 million every year.
Besides saving money, ending the unjust war on cannabis would free up resources and manpower to fight serious crime.
If the government decided to regulate cannabis sales, this could be expected to bring in over €200 million in VAT on Irish cannabis sales alone.
Regulation of the cannabis industry would result in the creation of hundreds of jobs. It would generate an estimated €243.8 million per year in employer taxes, and a further €26.3 million in PAYE taxes.
The Netherlands generates an estimated €360 million per year from tourists visiting their cannabis vending coffeeshops; Ireland could expect to generate up to 80% of this revenue from tourism.
Widespread cannabis contamination and lack of quality control regulation is costing young people their respiratory health and creating an unknown future burden on the health services. Cannabis smokers are consuming plastic, glass, lead, diesel and various other dangerous additives designed to increase weight and market value.
Cannabis legalisation would deprive violent criminals their share of the illicit market and would net the Irish state a total of over €879 million per year.

makemoney · 08-10-2009 9:22pm

What next ? Taxes on the air we breath? Or could we become more acceptable on our laws towards legalization of Cannabis ? and help our recession out of depression ?
WHY ? Well the very truth is Cannabis would net millions yearly for our suffering economy. This is a fact. You would just have to look up the total of cannabis seizures alone for 2009.
The Irish government estimates that there are 800,000 cannabis smokers in this country, around 10% of the adult population..
The government spends between €200-300 million every year to prosecute less than 1% of those smokers and intercept less than 10% of the incoming narcotics. In 2009 alone there has been an estimated over 20 million total of seized cannabis.
Evening Herald Wednesday September 09 2009
A Dutch man has been arrested in connection with an €8 million cannabis seizure at Dublin Port.
If the war against cannabis users were to be won, it would require an annual spend of over €24 billion - more than the entire annual tax take.
Simply removing cannabis from the law enforcement priorities of the state would produce massive savings. The Justice Department would save €109 million per year: the savings for the Gardai alone would be a 58.8 million every year.
Besides saving money, ending the unjust war on cannabis would free up resources and manpower to fight serious crime.
If the government decided to regulate cannabis sales, this could be expected to bring in over €200 million in VAT on Irish cannabis sales alone.
Regulation of the cannabis industry would result in the creation of hundreds of jobs. It would generate an estimated €243.8 million per year in employer taxes, and a further €26.3 million in PAYE taxes.
The Netherlands generates an estimated €360 million per year from tourists visiting their cannabis vending coffeeshops; Ireland could expect to generate up to 80% of this revenue from tourism.
Widespread cannabis contamination and lack of quality control regulation is costing young people their respiratory health and creating an unknown future burden on the health services. Cannabis smokers are consuming plastic, glass, lead, diesel and various other dangerous additives designed to increase weight and market value.
Cannabis legalisation would deprive violent criminals their share of the illicit market and would net the Irish state a total of over €879 million per year.

Kama · 09-10-2009 3:12am

Since I like my information in easy-to-understand visual form, and from relatively-respectable sources, here's The Lancet on empirical harm:

Apparently we've all got it wrong, and should be chewing some khat

weedfreedomtinp · 12-10-2009 12:48am

the worlds biggest no no against drugs has now got a state to argue back with cannabis prohibition ,, lets see if the Americans will swallow this humble pie ,, for all there lies about the drug over the last 50 years

FREE THE WEED ONCE AND FOR ALL

HOW CAN YOU MAKE A PLANT ILLEGAL ,,

weedfreedomtinp · 12-10-2009 12:59am

genericguy wrote: »

A major reason I think it isn't being legalised or even tolerated in this country is because of our government's affinity for the vintners - because i could tell you for damn sure if somebody could stay at home for a smoke and a few take-out beers with their friends, the only people to suffer would be those poxes with the cheek to charge 5 and 6 euro for a pint of piss.
.

I THINK THE ONLY REASON THAT IT IS ILLEGAL ..

IS BECAUSE THE PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANY'S WOULD LOSE OUT

THEY DONT WANT YOU TO GROW YOUR OWN MEDICINE

weedfreedomtinp · 12-10-2009 1:15am

Overheal wrote: »

you realize legalization will only make it easier for kids to get their hands on cannabis?

Ok if something is not regulated it is easier ,, most kids in schools will tell u that its the drugs like coke extacy cannabis is easier to get there hands on than alcohol or tobacco

thats a fact

because when it is regulated they have to show id over 18s only,, they should make a license to sell very hard to get and easy to lose like alcohol.

thebman · 12-10-2009 2:37am

weedfreedomtinp wrote: »

Ok if something is not regulated it is easier ,, most kids in schools will tell u that its the drugs like coke extacy cannabis is easier to get there hands on than alcohol or tobacco

thats a fact

because when it is regulated they have to show id over 18s only,, they should make a license to sell very hard to get and easy to lose like alcohol.

Exactly and saying people would still buy it illegally is a red herring because does that happen with alcohol?

I'm sure you have small black markets for alcohol but overall the vast majority are law abiding and buy from premises authorised to sell for the simple reason that people don't want to break the law.

Keeping weed illegal makes it push other drugs because once you've broken the law by buying weed then the law is no longer a barrier to buying any higher drug since your already doing it buying something harmless like weed. It stops law being a deterrent because people know they are taking the piss having it illegal.

Also from biased education in schools that all drugs are bad once kids find out they were being lied to about one they will be more likely to try others to find out what else was a lie. Honest education and legalisation of not very harmful drugs and allow people to make informed decisions is the only way you will reduce drug use IMO.

Overheal · 12-10-2009 3:03am

weedfreedomtinp wrote: »

Ok if something is not regulated it is easier ,, most kids in schools will tell u that its the drugs like coke extacy cannabis is easier to get there hands on than alcohol or tobacco

thats a fact

because when it is regulated they have to show id over 18s only,, they should make a license to sell very hard to get and easy to lose like alcohol.

Tobacco was never made illegal, and Alcohol is not simple or profitable to distill your closet.

You need to make your legal cannabis both easier and cheaper than the illegal cannabis to stop people from growing it. The way you people tax the bejesus out of everything, I doubt youd be able to pull it off. The fact is if the drug was decriminalized tomorrow I could set up a grow room for a fraction of the unit cost i'd get charged in any store.

Takeshi_Kovacs · 17-10-2009 9:44pm

You could, but to be honest, i doubt if a lot of cannabis users would be bothered to go through with growing their own weed if they could get it legally from a dispensary/shop, (and at hopefully less price than current street prices).

And setting up a proper grow room wouldn't be so cheap, when you consider lighting, ventilation and humidty controls, feeding and watering of plants, electricity costs etc.
Sure you would most likely produce weed cheaper than what you pay to a dealer at current prices, but if cannabis were legal, then those with permits/license to operate large scale grow ops, should be able to produce weed much cheaper than your average weed-in-the-closet grower. The final price would depend on how much the government wanted to tax it

rubadub · 17-10-2009 10:26pm

Takeshi_Kovacs wrote: »

The final price would depend on how much the government wanted to tax it

Yes, and the price would have to be inline with illegally sourced products, just like tobacco cannot be overpriced or people would turn to black markets more.

Overheal wrote: »

The fact is if the drug was decriminalized tomorrow I could set up a grow room for a fraction of the unit cost i'd get charged in any store.

Same can be said for beer, cigarettes are expensive and plants are freely available but I have never met a person who grew their own tobacco. I know several people who dabbled in home brewing, and expect many might try growing weed if legal and then going back to commercial supplies. They could also make it illegal if too many grew it. Distillation is illegal without a licence.

Cannabis should be legalized in Ireland To pull Our country out of ression

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