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July 12th...

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  • 12-07-2008 9:13am
    #1
    Quality
    Registered Users Posts: 6,900 ✭✭✭


    Whats your opinion on this marching business?

    And the burning of the tricolour up the North?


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    #2
    latenia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,997 ✭✭✭latenia


    I think they're a bunch of weirdos.


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    #3
    pvt.joker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,985 ✭✭✭pvt.joker


    Quality wrote: »
    Whats your opinion on this marching business?

    And the burning of the tricolour up the North?



    What's YOUR opinion on it?


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    #4
    Holsten
    Registered Users Posts: 4,971 ✭✭✭Holsten


    lolwut

    Bit more info needed.


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    #5
    marco murphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,715 ✭✭✭marco murphy


    I personally don't give a shít. It's tough on the people that since childhood had to watch these particullar bands go through their areas. I know most nationalists will be either away for the day or will stay in. Anyway, I'll be watching BBCs ''exclusive'' coverage of ''the 12th'', and get a good look at the gay uniforms and big drums.

    You'll see some drunkards that these events attract.
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=wCde30drFmU


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    #6
    SantaHoe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,488 ✭✭✭SantaHoe


    Aw isn't that cute... people dressing up in funny clothes together and pretending life isn't completely meaningless.
    I'd buy that for a dollar.


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    #7
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,215 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    I'm not a fan of it. It can be hostile and triumphalist. To defend it by comparing it to St Patrick's Day is just ludicrous. Any catholics I know from the North say, depending on the area you're in, things can be extremely intimidating. Not so much in the countryside, but in urban areas, and obviously Belfast in particular.

    I think it's ugly. The Orange Order is extremely antiquated - some pockets of it seem quite sinister. As for burning the tricolour, leave the hillbillies at it. Speaking of hillbillies, there is the belief that the term comes from "billy boys" - referring to the Ulster presbyterians who emigrated to the Appalachians and other parts of the Deep South. I'd believe it.
    BBC Northern Ireland did a feature on July 12th one year - I think the year after Drumcree - and there was a woman with a skinhead mullet thing and her three and four-year-old kids had the same - redneck central. She had the kids already filled to the brim with hate. She wasn't your usual run-of-the-mill bigot, I remember being astounded by how much of a lowlife she seemed.

    And of course knackers are just gonna use it as an excuse to be violent and rowdy...


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    #8
    marco murphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,715 ✭✭✭marco murphy


    Correct.
    Apocryphal attribution to isolated denizens of Appalachian Mountains,(Eastern USA) descendants of some of the earliest Scotch-English settlers, who seem to have had some proclivity for naming their children "William" (familiarly "Bill")and some not inconsiderable inclination to incestuous sexual congress. More recently, the term is used to describe any rural resident,especially in the Southern USA and particularly those living in rather rough-hewn conditions, embracing noticably parochial ideologies and a generally hostile attitude.


    And just a flashback,
    1998: Children die in Drumcree protests
    Three young brothers have been murdered in a loyalist arson attack in Ballymoney, Northern Ireland.

    The boys - Richard Quinn, 11, Mark Quinn, 9, and Jason Quinn, 7 - were asleep in their beds when a petrol bomb was thrown through a window at the rear of their terraced house at about 0430 BST.

    Their mother Chrissie, 29, her boyfriend Raymond Craig, 31 and a family friend, Christine Archibald, 18, escaped with minor injuries and are suffering from shock.

    The Quinns were Catholics living on the predominantly Protestant Carnany estate, but they were accepted by the community and attended a Protestant school. Mr Craig is also a Protestant.

    A fourth brother, Lee, was staying with his grandmother.

    Threatening letters

    Chief Constable of the RUC Ronnie Flanagan said: "What happened last night wasn't protest. We believe we're investigating the sectarian murder of three children."

    The attack comes after a week of protests by Orangemen demanding access to the mainly nationalist Garvaghy Road as part of their annual march at Drumcree church.

    Police dispersed a demonstration and barricades on the main road outside the Carnany estate last night.

    Over the past week Catholic and mixed families across the county have received abuse and threatening letters.

    The Orange Order's Co Armagh Chaplain Rev William Bingham expressed his sorrow to his loyalist congregation: "No road is worth a life let alone three lives of three little boys."

    Local MP and leader of the DUP Ian Paisley has visited the scene and described the murders as "diabolical" and "repugnant".

    All parties have appealed for calm after six hours of talks in Armagh broke down yesterday.

    Nationalist residents of the Lower Ormeau Road in Belfast have already announced that they will not block Orange parades as a mark of respect and the RUC have scaled down their forces.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/2500503.stm


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    #9
    Bluetonic
    Registered Users Posts: 7,588 ✭✭✭Bluetonic


    Quality wrote: »
    Whats your opinion on this marching business?
    It should be promoted as a festival. After all it is part of this islands culture, like it or not.
    Quality wrote: »
    And the burning of the tricolour up the North?
    It's tit for tat with nationalists still burning the Union Jack.


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    #10
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,048 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    I beleive it's called freedom.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #11
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,215 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    That wasn't the question Ikky Poo. I get annoyed when people use the "it's freedom" response to legitimate criticism of something - in this case it's a celebration of sectarianism. So what if they're free to do so? That's not the point. Others are also "free" to point out how ugly it is and how its purpose in some areas is simply to antagonise.


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    #12
    Captain Slow IRL
    Registered Users Posts: 3,651 ✭✭✭Captain Slow IRL


    Dudess wrote: »
    I think it's ugly. The Orange Order is extremely antiquated - some pockets of it seem quite sinister. As for burning the tricolour, leave the hillbillies at it. Speaking of hillbillies, there is the belief that the term comes from "billy boys" - referring to the Ulster presbyterians who emigrated to the Appalachians and other parts of the Deep South. I'd believe it.

    The KKK was set up by the same group of people - afaik, if you were catholic, it was as bad as being black in those parts.

    Why burn the flag? - what have the Irish done to provoke this?


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    #13
    Slidey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,811 ✭✭✭✭Slidey


    Ah jaysus here who opened this bloody can of wor... oh it was her...

    I can see this hitting the bad room or being locked.

    Well for years I have seen droves of NI registered cars hit sligo every week of the 12th.

    You dont see it happening on Paddys day now do ya.

    I dont believe either crowd do much flag burning anymore, I would imagine it has something to do with the Kyoto agreement:cool:


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    #14
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,215 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Captain Slow IRL wrote: »
    The KKK was set up by the same group of people - afaik, if you were catholic, it was as bad as being black in those parts.
    Allegedly I think. A lot of these views are speculative.


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    #15
    johnnyrotten
    Registered Users Posts: 3,593 ✭✭✭johnnyrotten


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    I beleive it's called freedom.

    Freedom my hole!
    People afraid to go outside their front door:eek:


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    #16
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,215 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Bluetonic wrote: »
    It should be promoted as a festival. After all it is part of this islands culture, like it or not.
    I don't believe anything so hate-filled should be promoted as a festival.


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    #17
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,215 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    johnnyrotten wrote: »
    Freedom my hole!
    People afraid to go outside their front door:eek:
    Yeah, what about the "freedom" of certain catholics? Freedom of speech and expression shouldn't impinge on others.


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    #18
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,048 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Dudess wrote: »
    That wasn't the question Ikky Poo. I get annoyed when people use the "it's freedom" response to legitimate criticism of something - in this case it's a celebration of sectarianism. So what if they're free to do so? That's not the point. Others are also "free" to point out how ugly it is and how its purpose in some areas is simply to antagonise.
    jonnyrotten wrote:
    Freedom my hole!
    People afraid to go outside their front door
    Dudess wrote: »
    Yeah, what about the "freedom" of certain catholics? Freedom of speech and expression shouldn't impinge on others.

    Woah, easy ladies! I was asked what I thought of the march, and if they want to march and burn flags then they should be free to do so. Of course, you should be free to criticise, which you do, and I have no problem with that.

    If people are breakig the law and committing sectarian crimes, terrorist offenses or intimidation, then someone needs to ask me a different question.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #19
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,215 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    Woah, easy ladies! I was asked what I thought of the march, and if they want to march and burn flags then they should be free to do so.
    But it's the event in and of itself: a celebration of triumphalism don't you agree? Not a good thing - even if they're free to do it.
    If people are breakig the law and committing sectarian crimes, terrorist offenses or intimidation, then someone needs to ask me a different question.
    Goes hand in hand with July 12th tbh.


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    #20
    GhostInTheRuins
    Registered Users Posts: 5,962 ✭✭✭GhostInTheRuins


    They're calling it "Orange-fest" this year to attract tourists lol


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    #21
    marco murphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,715 ✭✭✭marco murphy


    Dudess wrote: »

    Goes hand in hand with July 12th tbh.

    Yeh, have a look at news from last night. Fire crews attacked and such.

    http://www.ulster.ac.uk/news/images/africas-orange-order.jpg
    :D


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    #22
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,215 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    I doubt the Orange Order would be the most racially tolerant organisation there is, but if an African lodge is set up, I'm sure they'd be fine... it means more recognition. Gotta love hypocrisy.


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    #23
    misslt
    Registered Users Posts: 2,103 ✭✭✭misslt


    Coming from a mixed town in South Armagh, I've seen unionists/whatever use 12th July to run riot and intimidate nationalists living in the town. Most nationalists in my town fcuk off out of it the weekend of the 12th. The town is bedecked with red, white and blue, Union Jacks are put up everywhere which I don't think is particularly fair - both sides of the community live in the town.

    You can guarantee tomorrow morning the town will be wrecked - broken glass, etc - there'll be more than one fight too.

    It's a bit pathetic that hundreds of years after something has happened people still use it as an excuse to get drunk and beat each other up..


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    #24
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,215 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    But they're "free" to do it, misslt...


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    #25
    Quality
    Registered Users Posts: 6,900 ✭✭✭Quality


    I dont think you can compare the st patricks day parade to the 12th of July marches. You have people come from all over the world to celebrate St Patricks day. It is more to do with being Irish than celebrating the whole religious side. It welcomes all cultures, walks of life.

    I dont have a problem with the marchcing in itself. Once it is done in a peaceful way. Saying that I would not support it, I wont be bringing the family up to cheer on the marchers.

    The bonfires and the burning of the tricolour in my opinion is inciting hatred.

    I still find it intimidating to drive through Belfast. Those flags are up there for a reason.



    11+july+007.jpg


    In saying that, I dont mean to undermean any of the good work and progress done by all sides in the fight for peace.

    I just feel that every year this is a step back rather than forward.


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    #26
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,048 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Dudess wrote: »
    But it's the event in and of itself: a celebration of triumphalism don't you agree? Not a good thing - even if they're free to do it.

    Goes hand in hand with July 12th tbh.

    Don't you agree that that's a loaded question? I think what's intented and what actually happens when a bunch of scumbags get there hands on it are tow ompletely different things? Unless, of course you want to point me in the direction of and official site promoting illegal activities? Or cry conspiracy?

    And don't you agree that a large part of Irish culture and identity is based on hatred of the English?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #27
    marco murphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,715 ✭✭✭marco murphy


    I doubt the Orange Order would be the most racially tolerant organisation there is, but if an African lodge is set up, I'm sure they'd be fine... it means more recognition. Gotta love hypocrisy.
    Its all about money, they donate into Paisleys pocket :D
    And don't you agree that a large part of Irish culture and identity is based on hatred of the English?
    Thats silly. I'll say no more.


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    #28
    misslt
    Registered Users Posts: 2,103 ✭✭✭misslt


    Dudess wrote: »
    But they're "free" to do it, misslt...

    Unfortunately thats true, but a little maturity and decency might go a long way...:rolleyes:


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    #29
    Quality
    Registered Users Posts: 6,900 ✭✭✭Quality


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    And don't you agree that a large part of Irish culture and identity is based on hatred of the English?


    TBH, I dont think that yo can compare the Irish cultural hatred of the English to the situation in Northern Ireland around July the 12th.


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    #30
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,215 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    Don't you agree that that's a loaded question? I think what's intented and what actually happens when a bunch of scumbags get there hands on it are tow ompletely different things? Unless, of course you want to point me in the direction of and official site promoting illegal activities? Or cry conspiracy?
    What's intended is triumphalism - it's not some sort of light-hearted, good-natured celebration. It's intimidating and hostile. You'd be naive to think otherwise.
    And don't you agree that a large part of Irish culture and identity is based on hatred of the English?
    What's that got to do with the question being raised here? Does that somehow legitimise the sectarianism of 12th July?
    I detest shinners and I'm pretty much an anglophile so this is not me pushing some sort of agenda, but that's not gonna make me become that bit more tolerant of the bigotry on the unionist side - bigotry that led to the republican campaign of violence. I do find people have become more relaxed about it down here (not aiming that at you specifically Ikky Poo).


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    #31
    misslt
    Registered Users Posts: 2,103 ✭✭✭misslt


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

    And don't you agree that a large part of Irish culture and identity is based on hatred of the English?

    No - a large part of Irish history is made up by the English and their invasion or whatever, and the subsequent hatred - but the Irish identity is not based on it.

    A large part of Irish culture may be based on the British invasion of Ireland, but not on the hatred of them.


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