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Should prostitution be legalised? Or what...

124

Comments

  • #152
    Neewbie_noob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 543 ✭✭✭Neewbie_noob


    Prostitution should be legalised, and regulated, this will curtail all the illegal immigrants and trafficked ladies from Eastern Europe etc.

    Ireland's current system is stupid. Think of the business of prostitution like a pyramid. There is usually one pimp or two at the top, then several prostitutes, then even more customers.

    Tackling the customers is an endless arduous task.

    Not all prostitutes are trafficked, so not all women are being abused.

    In cases where they are part of a brothel where they are being forced to do the job, then the pimp should be heavily punished.

    In cases where the woman does it herself without a pimp, then the woman should be punished.

    Why do I have a flash back from the LC right now ??


  • #153
    Sponge25
    Registered Users Posts: 433 ✭✭Sponge25


    Neewbie_noob wrote: »
    Prostitution should be legalised, and regulated, this will curtail all the illegal immigrants and trafficked ladies from Eastern Europe etc.

    Ireland's current system is stupid. Think of the business of prostitution like a pyramid. There is usually one pimp or two at the top, then several prostitutes, then even more customers.

    Tackling the customers is an endless arduous task.

    Not all prostitutes are trafficked, so not all women are being abused.

    In cases where they are part of a brothel where they are being forced to do the job, then the pimp should be heavily punished.

    In cases where the woman does it herself without a pimp, then the woman should be punished.

    Why do I have a flash back from the LC right now ??

    If a pimp is forcing a girl to prostitute he ought to be locked up for life without parole. He is of no use to humanity!

    Lads - why can't yas just get a girlfriend? If ya don't want to commit that's one of the downsides. No sex!


  • #154
    Neewbie_noob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 543 ✭✭✭Neewbie_noob


    Sponge25 wrote: »
    If a pimp is forcing a girl to prostitute he ought to be locked up for life without parole. He is of no use to humanity!

    Plus one

    Sponge25 wrote: »
    Lads - why can't yas just get a girlfriend? If ya don't want to commit that's one of the downsides. No sex!

    But if a girl knowingly sells her body why should she get off scot free and the boy be punished??? She is the provider (not the boy and not the pimp).
    Sponge25 wrote: »
    Lads - why can't yas just get a girlfriend? If ya don't want to commit that's one of the downsides. No sex!

    What if the boy just can't get a girlfriend?


  • #155
    GaryIrv93
    Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭GaryIrv93


    Wouldn't like to see it legalised IMO it's a desperate business idea but then again it is a recession and people need money fast. If it gets legalised then hopefully it would be on the condition of it being closely regulated.


  • #156
    Sponge25
    Registered Users Posts: 433 ✭✭Sponge25


    Neewbie_noob wrote: »
    Plus one




    But if a girl knowingly sells her body why should she get off scot free and the boy be punished??? She is the provider (not the boy and not the pimp).



    What if the boy just can't get a girlfriend?

    There's a girl out there for everyone man. If ya can't find a girl; Go to the gym, get toned up a little, lose weight if ya have too. Get a nice haircut, get some nice clothes. Do everything possible to make a girl more attracted to ya. Ask your female friends for tips on how to impress a girl and hold a conversation. When you feel like you're ready, sign up to a dating site or go out and be patient, you'll find a girl sooner or later.

    You might mess it up a few times at first but be honest and tell the girl you're a virgin and you've never been with a girl before and she'll take it easy on you and show ya how to do it ;)

    Just trust me on this; making love to a cute girl who really loves you and who ya really love is the best feeling in the world. It makes you feel so good everything gets bright and you get lightheaded and ya can't get the grin of your face!:)

    Even boys who are attractive and now how to talk to girls go trough patches where they can't find a girl so be patient!


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  • #157
    Neewbie_noob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 543 ✭✭✭Neewbie_noob


    Sponge25 wrote: »
    There's a girl out there for everyone man. If ya can't find a girl; Go to the gym, get toned up a little, lose weight if ya have too. Get a nice haircut, get some nice clothes. Do everything possible to make a girl more attracted to ya. Ask your female friends for tips on how to impress a girl and hold a conversation. When you feel like you're ready, sign up to a dating site or go out and be patient, you'll find a girl sooner or later.

    You might mess it up a few times at first but be honest and tell the girl you're a virgin and you've never been with a girl before and she'll take it easy on you and show ya how to do it ;)

    Just trust me on this; making love to a cute girl who really loves you and who ya really love is the best feeling in the world. It makes you feel so good everything gets bright and you get lightheaded and ya can't get the grin of your face!:)

    Even boys who are attractive and now how to talk to girls go trough patches where they can't find a girl so be patient!



    Thanks for advice :D but I'm grand in that department myself :cool:


  • #158
    Sponge25
    Registered Users Posts: 433 ✭✭Sponge25


    Neewbie_noob wrote: »
    Thanks for advice :D but I'm grand in that department myself :cool:

    It's not for you in paticular, it's for guys who can't find a girl ;)

    There's a girl out there for everyone if ya just put some effort in lads. If you're not willing to put the effort in you'll never get a girl cause a girlfriend is FAR more effort than ya think.

    It's alot of effort to keep the misses happy isn't it lads?

    haha :p


  • #159
    Cryogen
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 92 ✭✭Cryogen


    I am a firm believer in prostitution, however the prices offered by women in Ireland are not competitive enough to those in the UK


  • #160
    Sponge25
    Registered Users Posts: 433 ✭✭Sponge25


    Cryogen wrote: »
    I am a firm believer in prostitution, however the prices offered by women in Ireland are not competitive enough to those in the UK

    So you like sleeping with whores? why?

    Wouldn't you much rather a beautiful woman who has some respect for herself?


  • #161
    Cryogen
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 92 ✭✭Cryogen


    Sponge25 wrote: »
    So you like sleeping with whores? why?

    Wouldn't you much rather a beautiful woman who has some respect for herself?

    Gentlemen of my stature in society can have both


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  • #162
    Sponge25
    Registered Users Posts: 433 ✭✭Sponge25


    Cryogen wrote: »
    Gentlemen of my stature in society can have both

    Gentlemen respect woman and don't sleep with whores; You're hardly a gentlemen, sir!


  • #163
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,348 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Sponge25 wrote: »
    Do ya know how I know anyone who uses a prostitute is filth? Because only a filthy man would sleep with a whore!

    So your position is right because you know your position is right. That is basically the rhetoric you are selling here. You just sit there and throw demeaning invective at people and that is essentially your entire argument.
    Sponge25 wrote: »
    There's alot of poor girls in the world trafficked to prostitute (even in Ireland!) I have nothing but the utmost sympathy for these girls

    If you would stop piling your hateful invective onto the thread for a moment you will likely then notice that people who are perfectly ok with prostitution are not at all ok with slavery and trafficking. We have common cause there.

    I am also perfectly ok with the production of clothing, but I am not ok with the child slave labour some clothing companies have used as a cost cutting measure.

    It would be foolish to say clothes production is evil because some people used child labour. It is also foolish to say prostitution is wrong because some people use slaves and trafficking too.

    You are conflating two issues in an attempt to indict them both with the same crimes and the result is a transparently false rhetoric that you can back up with nothing but invective and hate.
    Sponge25 wrote: »
    How on earth anyone can justify being a whore is beyond me?

    Thankfully no one has to justify themselves to you. "Innocent until proven guilty" and all that. Unless there are arguments to suggest something is actually WRONG with prostitution then they have no onus to justify themselves to anyone at all.


  • #164
    Daveysil15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭Daveysil15


    Sponge25 wrote: »
    There's a little difference between a guy and girl getting carried away and sleeping together and a girl sleeping with 15 men a day. One had a hot night with a guy the others a whore worth little!
    Sponge25 wrote: »
    Do ya know how I know anyone who uses a prostitute is filth? Because only a filthy man would sleep with a whore! That's what prostitutes are, whores.

    You make everything sound so black and white. Sometimes sex is good, sometimes its bad. It depends on the person. Some prostitutes are coerced, some choose to do it. The men who use them vary too. It’s a lot more complex than you’d like to think.

    Even with regards to casual sex, or a one night stand. Yes sometimes It can be harmless fun, but there are times when people regret it or have a bad experience. It can sometimes result in unwanted pregnancies or people getting hurt. If a lad brings a girl into a toilet who is so drunk she can barely stand, and has sex with her... is that really any more classy than using an escort? I know this is not always the case, but every circumstance varies as does prostitution and the people involved in it.

    Do you actually know what percentage of prostitutes in this country are trafficked and what percentage have chosen to do it? Not even Ruhama can answer that one. If you have such sympathy for the prostitutes then which law would you like to see put in place?


  • #165
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    Weeks ban for Sponge25 for trolling and intentionally abusive.

    ER.


  • #166
    gaffer91
    Registered Users Posts: 1,307 ✭✭✭gaffer91


    @ T Runner if possible would you be able to respond to my post, here regarding legalising prostitution.

    I would also like to ask you several other questions regarding prostitution. I will not try to pigeonhole you into yes/no answers so can you please answer the following questions with as much length or brevity as you see fit.

    1. What do you say to this report which states that trafficking is actually on the increase in Sweden?

    2. Given that evidence in my previous post and also here (read the conclusion) shows that most prostitutes work of their own free will, do you really think it is right to criminalise a transaction between consenting adults? That someone has a history of physical, sexual or substance abuse should not disqualify them from taking a job, imo.

    3. How do you respond to evidence in my previous post that showed how sex workers in NZ are delighted with prostitution being legal? I know you will probably cite Farley's figures again but the fact is given her open bias her entire study must be taken with a massive pinch of salt.


  • #167
    Daveysil15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭Daveysil15


    I read that report about the trafficking increasing in Sweden, but its difficult to know which reports are telling the truth. It would be interesting to hear from people who have either worked as prostitutes or used prostitutes. It's all to easy to judge from the outside without having actually paid for, or sold sex.


  • #168
    9959
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭9959


    Daveysil15 wrote: »
    I read that report about the trafficking increasing in Sweden, but its difficult to know which reports are telling the truth. It would be interesting to hear from people who have either worked as prostitutes or used prostitutes. It's all to easy to judge from the outside without having actually paid for, or sold sex.

    I doubt there that there are many Swedish prostitutes reading this, I could be wrong, I suppose there's 'downtime' in every profession.


  • #169
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Excerpt online today from a BBC interview with Dr Brooke Magnanti, who may be better known as Belle de Jour, who blogged about her own experiences in prostitution.

    In it she criticizes the gynocentric focus of many anti-prostitution activists and, relevant to the discussion here, the selective biases employed in the 'research' carried out by so-called anti-prostitution academics.


  • #170
    enfant terrible
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭enfant terrible


    Daveysil15 wrote: »
    I read that report about the trafficking increasing in Sweden, but its difficult to know which reports are telling the truth. It would be interesting to hear from people who have either worked as prostitutes or used prostitutes. It's all to easy to judge from the outside without having actually paid for, or sold sex.

    Gunilla Ekberg is a Swedish lawyer. From 2002 to 2006, she was employed at the Ministry of Industry as the Swedish Government's expert on prostitution and trafficking in human beings.

    She is an advocate for Sweden's approach to prostitution, in which the john's are prosecuted but the prostitutes are supported by the social services in an effort to move them out of the industry.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunilla_Ekberg

    If she is one of the leading figures behind this approach then i would be very dubious of any of their claims.

    Go to 5.31 in this video to see her in action
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hgxHaSqzn4&feature=relmfu


  • #171
    miec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 856 ✭✭✭miec


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2237170/Why-Amsterdams-legal-brothels-lesson-Britain-telling-truth-sex-gangs-race.html#ixzz2DFSeLQpr

    This article is another strong reason why prostitution should not be legalised and I hope that legislation changes so that the person paying for sex is the one who is charged. It is disgusting that young girls are being groomed and tricked into prostitution so that other men can purchase sex off very young girls.


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  • #172
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Interesting article about a study that dismantles the myths about the type of women involved in the the sex industry.
    Female porn stars are psychologically as healthy or healthier than other women, according to a new study, which challenges widely held views about women in the adult entertainment business.

    Adult entertainers were found to have higher self-esteem, a better quality of life and body image, and to be more positive, with greater levels of spirituality. They also had higher levels of sexual satisfaction and, perhaps unsurprisingly, many more partners than other women.

    The American researchers, who report their findings in the Journal of Sex Research, said they found no evidence to support the "damaged goods hypothesis" that actresses involved in the porn industry come from desperate backgrounds and are less psychologically healthy compared with typical women.


  • #173
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    miec wrote: »
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2237170/Why-Amsterdams-legal-brothels-lesson-Britain-telling-truth-sex-gangs-race.html#ixzz2DFSeLQpr

    This article is another strong reason why prostitution should not be legalised and I hope that legislation changes so that the person paying for sex is the one who is charged. It is disgusting that young girls are being groomed and tricked into prostitution so that other men can purchase sex off very young girls.

    I completely agree - you've just hit the nail on the head for legalising and properly regulating prostitution.


  • #174
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Procrastastudy wrote: »
    I completely agree - you've just hit the nail on the head for legalising and properly regulating prostitution.

    Indeed. There's nothing more credible in academic circles than a Daily Mail article.


  • #175
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    Indeed. There's nothing more credible in academic circles than a Daily Mail article.

    I like the way their own journalists cite the fact the the Dutch are reacting to the problem themselves.


  • #176
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    No mention of male sex workers, or female purchasers ...

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/letters/criminalisation-of-men-who-buy-sex-is-how-to-end-prostitution-217146.html
    Criminalisation of men who buy sex is how to end prostitution

    Monday, December 17, 2012

    As someone who has studied prostitution and the harm and misery for the women involved, I think it is time that this highly lucrative industry, from which traffickers and prostitution agencies profit, was curbed.

    The weight of international research evidence on the harm of all forms of prostitution is overwhelming.

    A focus on the men who buy sex is needed, with a view to criminalising the purchase of sex.

    Awareness campaigns alone do not work and legislation outlawing the purchase of women is needed to combat prostitution.

    This is why I support the campaign against prostitution in Ireland, which is making presentations at the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice (Irish Examiner, Dec 12).

    Unconditional penalties for men who seek and buy people for sex is the only way to end the criminal prostitution underworld and our tolerance tor it.

    Dr Patricia Kelleher
    Allihies
    Beara
    Co Cork


  • #177
    Daveysil15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭Daveysil15


    Has this law been implemented yet?


  • #178
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    Daveysil15 wrote: »
    Has this law been implemented yet?
    They haven't decided if there will be a new law yet, if that's what you mean.


  • #179
    SwanSky
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭SwanSky


    How dreadfully depressing it is, as a woman, to see that the majority of people voting in this poll feel women are on this earth to be commodified - just products to be bought and sold.

    I wonder how long their theory would hold up if it was their own legs open on a brothels bed.


  • #180
    SwanSky
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭SwanSky


    iptba wrote: »
    No mention of male sex workers, or female purchasers ...

    No mention of the Yeti either. Some things are not worth talking about.


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  • #181
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    SwanSky wrote: »
    No mention of the Yeti either. Some things are not worth talking about.
    So male prostitutes and female clients are essentially both mythical creatures on a par with the Yeti? Nice.


  • #182
    Daveysil15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭Daveysil15


    Judging by her previous posts, SwanSky is definitely a troll.


  • #183
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Daveysil15 wrote: »
    Judging by her previous posts, SwanSky is definitely a troll.
    Don't think so - I suspect she's for real. Scary innit?


  • #184
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    If you suspect someone is trolling report their posts.

    ER.


  • #185
    Cathyht
    Closed Accounts Posts: 318 ✭✭Cathyht


    I will say firstly I am against prostitution, totally. Objectifying someone to the sum of their body parts, using them in exchange for money, I find this disgusting. I hate the fact that women (and rent boys etc) are in this vulnerable position for whatever reason, and others, for sexual gratification are prepared to pay them for this act.

    I don't believe for a minute prostitution prevents men raping. In fact Nicholas Groth, director of Forensic Mental Health Associates during his 25 years practice, formed a typology of rapists. A startling point he discovered over these years was that, contrary to popular rape myths, most of the patients were not sexually deprived, at the time they committed the rape(s).

    Finally, in current times where there are so many women (and men) available for no-strings sex, under various euphemisms such as 'fun' F-buddies, etc, I am astonished there could possibly be demand for paid sex. Which brings one to the conclusion that it is the really depraved visiting prostitutes. They need to pay for these acts as they are not performed by the general free and easy spirit. A person paying for sex is paying for control, sadism or depravity, or a cocktail of some or all these. Whether or not they pay for it, it IS abuse and those working in this trade are not safe, they are vulnerable.


  • #186
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    Cathyht wrote: »
    Finally, in current times where there are so many women (and men) available for no-strings sex, under various euphemisms such as 'fun' F-buddies, etc, I am astonished there could possibly be demand for paid sex. Which brings one to the conclusion that it is the really depraved visiting prostitutes. They need to pay for these acts as they are not performed by the general free and easy spirit. A person paying for sex is paying for control, sadism or depravity, or a cocktail of some or all these.
    What about people with disabilities paying for sex - I don't think they necessarily fit those criteria.


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  • #187
    Cathyht
    Closed Accounts Posts: 318 ✭✭Cathyht


    Lots of people with disabilities have perfectly happy relationships, and don't need to pay for sex.
    There are plenty of people without disabilities do not have partners and do not pay for sex.

    Objectifying a person is wrong even if you are disabled. Subordinating a vulnerable person and paying them for the joy of it has to be one of the UNsexiest things imaginable. Prostitution is a dis-service to each individual involved, and teaches people to abuse and mistreat each other. When you see, overall the suffering, vulnerability and dysfunction in the prostitute's life, it is not right to stand by and pretend this is a job. It is criminal to treat a human being with such disrespect, to allow them abuse themselves like that. We don't ALLOW anorexics to starve themselves, or teenagers to cut themselves, equally it is wrong to allow prostitution, even if the person (in their dysfunction) allows it. Or is forced to allow it.


  • #188
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    Cathyht wrote: »
    Lots of people with disabilities have perfectly happy relationships, and don't need to pay for sex.
    There are plenty of people without disabilities do not have partners and do not pay for sex.

    Objectifying a person is wrong even if you are disabled. Subordinating a vulnerable person and paying them for the joy of it has to be one of the UNsexiest things imaginable. Prostitution is a dis-service to each individual involved, and teaches people to abuse and mistreat each other. When you see, overall the suffering, vulnerability and dysfunction in the prostitute's life, it is not right to stand by and pretend this is a job. It is criminal to treat a human being with such disrespect, to allow them abuse themselves like that. We don't ALLOW anorexics to starve themselves, or teenagers to cut themselves, equally it is wrong to allow prostitution, even if the person (in their dysfunction) allows it. Or is forced to allow it.

    I find there is as much objectifying going on by people at your end of the spectrum as there is at mine. There are a fair few women that work in the sex industry in England that would object to being called vulnerable and dysfunctional - they are anything but. They enjoy their jobs, work short hours and are their own bosses.

    They are the lucky ones in a profession that does indeed have vulnerable people trafficked into it. That isn't stopped, indeed it is helped, by making prostitution illegal. When has making something illegal ever stopped it? Indeed going further; when has prohibition ever made a situation better?


  • #189
    Daveysil15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭Daveysil15


    Cathyht wrote: »
    It is criminal to treat a human being with such disrespect, to allow them abuse themselves like that. We don't ALLOW anorexics to starve themselves, or teenagers to cut themselves, equally it is wrong to allow prostitution, even if the person (in their dysfunction) allows it. Or is forced to allow it.

    You either respect people or you don't. Is it so inconceivable that a person could treat a sex worker with the same courtesy they would treat any other professional? Not all prostitutes are victims and not all people who use their services are depraved. The situation is not as black and white as you make it out to be.


  • #190
    Cathyht
    Closed Accounts Posts: 318 ✭✭Cathyht


    Yes, actually, I believe it is inconceivable that a people generally treat a sex worker with the same courtesy they would treat any other professional.

    Unfortunately they attract attacks, they are subjected to abuse which passes as part and parcel of their job, they are not treated with any respect. It is a dangerous, seedy world they inhabit. Most people in prostitution are not enjoying a glittering career of choice. For the vast majority it is a result of poverty, drug abuse or incredible vulnerability. We must treat the disease which is the majority of this seedy abused sector. Not the individuals, but the whole cancer prostitution is on decency and respect for another.
    It is not right in a so called civilized society to allow this continue, I have no problem targeting those who would pay for sex, using money to take advantage of these people.

    Making something illegal certainly reduces it. How many people would tax their cars if the Guards turned a blind eye, but you get caught enough times without your tax by a traffic warden or Guard and there is a fine, or failing that, court appearance. You will pay your tax. Speeding is illegal, even in those ridiculous dual carriageway 50km zones, you lose your licence if you keep breaking the speed limit. There are many examples of making things illegal where you can be sure the incidence is a tiny fraction now of what it would be if the legislation were changed.

    I don't understand the argument, Oh since when has making something illegal stopped it. It may not stop all the people all the time, but the understanding is accepted you don't do it without legal consequences, and by and large people don't.


  • #191
    Daveysil15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭Daveysil15


    Cathyht wrote: »
    Unfortunately they attract attacks, they are subjected to abuse which passes as part and parcel of their job, they are not treated with any respect. It is a dangerous, seedy world they inhabit. Most people in prostitution are not enjoying a glittering career of choice. For the vast majority it is a result of poverty, drug abuse or incredible vulnerability.

    Are you trying to say all prostitutes are subjected to the things you've described? I don't think prostitution in itself is wrong, each person brings to it what they will. People are exploited in all sorts of jobs. Trafficking and prostitution are two different things. We need to get rid of the pimps and traffickers, not target the people who are paying for sex. Why should a mutual act between two consenting adults be legal for one person and not for the other?


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  • #192
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    Cathyht wrote: »
    Yes, actually, I believe it is inconceivable that a people generally treat a sex worker with the same courtesy they would treat any other professional.

    Unfortunately they attract attacks, they are subjected to abuse which passes as part and parcel of their job, they are not treated with any respect. It is a dangerous, seedy world they inhabit. Most people in prostitution are not enjoying a glittering career of choice. For the vast majority it is a result of poverty, drug abuse or incredible vulnerability. We must treat the disease which is the majority of this seedy abused sector. Not the individuals, but the whole cancer prostitution is on decency and respect for another.
    It is not right in a so called civilized society to allow this continue, I have no problem targeting those who would pay for sex, using money to take advantage of these people.

    Making something illegal certainly reduces it. How many people would tax their cars if the Guards turned a blind eye, but you get caught enough times without your tax by a traffic warden or Guard and there is a fine, or failing that, court appearance. You will pay your tax. Speeding is illegal, even in those ridiculous dual carriageway 50km zones, you lose your licence if you keep breaking the speed limit. There are many examples of making things illegal where you can be sure the incidence is a tiny fraction now of what it would be if the legislation were changed.

    I don't understand the argument, Oh since when has making something illegal stopped it. It may not stop all the people all the time, but the understanding is accepted you don't do it without legal consequences, and by and large people don't.

    You expose the fallacy of your own logic. My wife drove from Kilkenny to Dublin yesterday, she broke the speed limit on a number of occasions. She was not caught.

    The majority of drug deals go undetected. What happens by making it illegal though is the risk to reward ratio is massively increased.

    Prohibition of Alcohol - failed
    Prohibition of Gambling - failed
    Prohibition of Narcotics - failed

    All with disastrous results. You don't tackle something by forcing it underground you just make it worse.

    Retail staff are subjected to attacks on a regular basis - should we ban shops?


  • #193
    Cathyht
    Closed Accounts Posts: 318 ✭✭Cathyht


    But she knew she was breaking it, she was aware of the limit, she then chose to break it, more than likely at a lower speed than if there were NO limit. This is different to people driving whatever way they want. There are still constraints.

    It has been shown in Australia that legalising prostitution made the situation worse.

    Criminalising prostitution and charging those who use them has proved effective in Sweden.

    I still prefer to live in a society where narcotics and prostitution are illegal.


  • #194
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    Cathyht wrote: »
    But she knew she was breaking it, she was aware of the limit, she then chose to break it, more than likely at a lower speed than if there were NO limit. This is different to people driving whatever way they want. There are still constraints.

    Nope she is a very careful driver she just tipped over - she generally drives under the speed limits - regulates her own behaviour. You're asserting because something is illegal people will get caught. They wont.
    Cathyht wrote: »
    It has been shown in Australia that legalising prostitution made the situation worse.

    Criminalising prostitution and charging those who use them has proved effective in Sweden.

    I'll think you'll find that opinion is pretty divided on the subject, neither approach has proved successful.
    Cathyht wrote: »
    I still prefer to live in a society where narcotics and prostitution are illegal.

    That's your right of course - I'd ban smoking in public places, maintain the abortion ban and legalise all drugs except heroin which I would give away in clinics - none of that makes the opinion informed, that of the majority or indeed the right thing to do.


  • #195
    Daveysil15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭Daveysil15


    Swedish police stats show more, not less prostitution and trafficking. A lot of the sex workers there are not happy with the law either. Many work in such unsavoury jobs because they're very, very short of other options in their lives. Using the force of the law to drive away a large proportion of their customers doesn't change whatever life circumstances have led them to this point. All it does is to limit their already limited options even further. They still need to earn the money, but they have fewer clients to pick and choose from. That means they may be more likely to feel their only option is to accept unpleasant clients.


  • #196
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    Cathyht wrote: »
    Lots of people with disabilities have perfectly happy relationships, and don't need to pay for sex.
    There are plenty of people without disabilities do not have partners and do not pay for sex.
    That may well be the case.

    But what you argued was:
    Cathyht wrote:
    Finally, in current times where there are so many women (and men) available for no-strings sex, under various euphemisms such as 'fun' F-buddies, etc, I am astonished there could possibly be demand for paid sex. Which brings one to the conclusion that it is the really depraved visiting prostitutes. They need to pay for these acts as they are not performed by the general free and easy spirit. A person paying for sex is paying for control, sadism or depravity, or a cocktail of some or all these.
    I think plenty of disabled people wouldn't have 'fun' F-buddies, etc, so one can't assume that they are thus really depraved for visiting prostitutes, etc (using your "logic"). (BTW, I also read that some disabled women also avail of such services).

    Probably plenty of other people in society don't have 'fun' F-buddies, either.


  • #197
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Cathyht wrote: »
    Finally, in current times where there are so many women (and men) available for no-strings sex, under various euphemisms such as 'fun' F-buddies, etc, I am astonished there could possibly be demand for paid sex.
    If you're single, attractive and have a modicum of charm and self assuredness, have enough free time to find a woman willing to enter such an arrangement, are not trapped in a sexless marriage and have no health of disability issues - then sure, I can't imagine anyone from such a demographic needing a prostitute.

    Being honest, this is probably the reason the thought of going to a prostitute has never entered my own head. But beyond that, in the Real World, I suspect your NSA solution is a little unrealistic for many.
    Cathyht wrote: »
    Yes, actually, I believe it is inconceivable that a people generally treat a sex worker with the same courtesy they would treat any other professional.
    I agree that the treatment of anyone in the sex industry is appalling. Imagine someone did typesetting for a pornographic magazine, or just happened to work in a sex shop at the counter; strangely enough where they work is something that's unlikely to be revealed on the first date with someone.

    Why? As with opposition to prostitution, opposition to the sex industry in general tends to be a modern incarnation of Victorian, middle class, puritanism. We've no problem letting some poor sod wade waste deep in sewage in pursuit of their job, or give an incontinent geriatric a sponge bath, but the moment sex is involved, then that's when it's suddenly degrading enough to act on. Odd that.

    Wouldn't it be better if we worked on this prejudice, rather than reinforce it?
    Most people in prostitution are not enjoying a glittering career of choice. For the vast majority it is a result of poverty, drug abuse or incredible vulnerability.
    Someone's got to dig ditches.

    By this I mean that there are numerous occupations in the World that are not a glittering career of choice - most, probably. Also many people end up in degrading jobs, or turning to crime, as a result of poverty, drug abuse or "incredible vulnerability" (is this a generic 'victim' label?).

    And there are numerous occupations in the World that are degrading, dangerous and downright unpleasant. Perhaps we should criminalize all of those?

    And finally, you say "most people in prostitution are not enjoying a glittering career of choice" - are you conceding that some are? If so, what of them?
    Making something illegal certainly reduces it.
    Yes, but it can also make it worse - a lot worse. The classic example of this was the American prohibition period, which decreased alcohol consumption overall, but spawned such an increase in organized crime and dangerous bootleg alcohol, that eventually it was abandoned as a law.
    Cathyht wrote: »
    Criminalising prostitution and charging those who use them has proved effective in Sweden.
    Actually that's open for debate. What's been found there is that it has simply shifted off the streets and on-line, becoming more underground and secretive.


  • #198
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,887 ✭✭✭iptba


    I've never used a prostitute and haven't read or seen much about what happens in reality, but found the following item of interest when I happened to come across it on the Psychology Today site yesterday:
    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201103/are-all-women-essentially-prostitutes

    This is the author quoting from a prostitute who wrote to them
    This [my distinction between prostitutes and "ordinary women"] presumes that prostitutes are fundamentally different from what I call "amateurs," which we aren't; your assumption seems to be based on the fallacies that 1) prostitutes provide a consistent level of service no matter how we're treated; and 2) to a man, all sex is good sex. While the second statement may certainly be true of some men, especially those who patronize streetwalkers, it isn't by any stretch of the imagination true of most; the average client of a $300/hour hooker (which was exactly what I charged) wants a good, quality "girlfriend experience" (GFE), which will be much more likely if he treats his "date" like a lady. Most escorts who are treated as though they're "bought and paid for" will try to complete the act as quickly as possible and get such a client out the door. Furthermore, in my experience, the typical client enjoys the illusion that a beautiful woman wants to spend time with him, even if he intellectually knows she is there for the money. I guarantee you that the majority of my clients tried their utmost to impress me, even to the point of bringing me gifts, flowers, and the like.


  • #199
    Daveysil15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭Daveysil15


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    If you're single, attractive and have a modicum of charm and self assuredness, have enough free time to find a woman willing to enter such an arrangement, are not trapped in a sexless marriage and have no health of disability issues - then sure, I can't imagine anyone from such a demographic needing a prostitute.

    I’m sure there are even people within that demographic who use prostitutes. Some premiership footballers have used prostitutes - maybe because they’d be less likely to sell their stories to the tabloids. Others may just like variety or have a particular fetish or fantasy they’d like to try.

    And while there is a stigma associated with paying for sex, there’s also a stigma associated with going out and looking for casual sex through the conventional routes, that is if the women are not interested in the same thing, in which case the man is often labelled a creep.


  • #200
    Cathyht
    Closed Accounts Posts: 318 ✭✭Cathyht


    Procrastastudy wrote: »
    Nope she is a very careful driver she just tipped over - she generally drives under the speed limits - regulates her own behaviour. You're asserting because something is illegal people will get caught. They wont.

    .


    She may not get caught each time she breaks the law, but the probability rises each time she does speed. Or she could be unlucky enough to be caught the only time she breaks the speed limit. I drove about 200 miles adhering conscientiously to the speed limit, yet at a badly sign posted 50 km zone I was caught speeding on a dual carriageway. I got my points in the post a few days ago, which will last 3 years from the 23rd of January. The fact you are even mentioning her speeding/tipping over the limit, means you are both aware of the limit. You may find she self regulates a little differently when she has accrued 2 or 4 penalty points.

    Whether you admit it or not, the law is affecting her driving behaviour. It is the funniest debate, I've ever heard, a little childish, to say she drives completely self regulatory, yet you are both well aware of when she went over the limit :cool:. Just like peppering what you say with 'the fallacy of your logic' does not point out fallacy in my logic. The term is not being used in the correct context to best serve your debate. Happy driving!!!


  • #201
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    Cathyht wrote: »
    She may not get caught each time she breaks the law, but the probability rises each time she does speed. Or she could be unlucky enough to be caught the only time she breaks the speed limit. I drove about 200 miles adhering conscientiously to the speed limit, yet at a badly sign posted 50 km zone I was caught speeding on a dual carriageway. I got my points in the post a few days ago, which will last 3 years from the 23rd of January. The fact you are even mentioning her speeding/tipping over the limit, means you are both aware of the limit. You may find she self regulates a little differently when she has accrued 2 or 4 penalty points.

    Whether you admit it or not, the law is affecting her driving behaviour. It is the funniest debate, I've ever heard, a little childish, to say she drives completely self regulatory, yet you are both well aware of when she went over the limit :cool:. Just like peppering what you say with 'the fallacy of your logic' does not point out fallacy in my logic. The term is not being used in the correct context to best serve your debate. Happy driving!!!

    Glad you enjoyed it. I do have to admit yes our debate is a bit childish, you are ignoring basic facts when put in-front of you like a child that won't eat their greens.

    Attacking each other aside I'm still waiting for you to answer any of the points raised by myself or the majority of posters in this thread. Sweden has been pretty much debunked, which seems to be your only concrete point.

    How does making something illegal and forcing it underground help? As we've pointed out the majority of times crime goes undetected. The black market model simply encourages more of what you, and most posters, here want to combat. I assume you have some moral, rather than logical objection? That's fair enough but at least be clear about it.


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