DART+ (DART Expansion)

LXFlyer · 21-07-2017 9:18pm

lucernarian wrote: »

The evening running of 4 carriages on weekdays is not really to do with rolling stock after 7.30pm, whatever about the 6.37 one. I still have my doubts considering a 29k operates some rosslare services, but I figure there's an operational reason for that too. Sooner or later, prior decisions taken by Irish Rail have to be taken into account though. The buck stops with them ultimately.

I was specifically referring to your comment about the 18:30 Pearse-Maynooth (18:37 from Connolly). There isn't any rolling stock to strengthen it with.

It's only after the shoulders around the peak that trains become available and splitting can happen.

Only one return working on the Rosslare route is rostered for a 29k and that's the 05:35 Rosslare-Dundalk and the 16:37 Connolly-Rosslare. Changing that is not to suddenly magic a spare set to operate the 18:30 as an 8 piece. The use of a 29k on that train into Dublin is a better match for the loading on it - more people can fit on it than an ICR.

The bottom line is that the company has not been able to afford to operate all of it's rolling stock due to cutbacks in government spending - that's only being reversed in stages - when the 2700s return it will release the 2800s back to Dublin, which will improve the situation.

lucernarian · 21-07-2017 9:30pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I was specifically referring to your comment about the 18:30 Pearse-Maynooth (18:37 from Connolly). There isn't any rolling stock to strengthen it with.

It's only after the shoulders around the peak that trains become available and splitting can happen.

Only one return working on the Rosslare route is rostered for a 29k and that's the 05:35 Rosslare-Dundalk and the 16:37 Connolly-Rosslare. Changing that is not to suddenly magic a spare set to operate the 18:30 as an 8 piece. The use of a 29k on that train into Dublin is a better match for the loading on it - more people can fit on it than an ICR.

The bottom line is that the company has not been able to afford to operate all of it's rolling stock due to cutbacks in government spending - that's only being reversed in stages - when the 2700s return it will release the 2800s back to Dublin, which will improve the situation.

I've heard all of this before. I'll still have my doubts.

I again note you didn't refer to the rolling stock issue on the later departures.

Rail transport is terribly neglected in this country but I'm getting sick of CIE excuses and sympathies and I'm seeing Irish Rail more as a part of the problem. There is plenty of rolling stock to serve Maynooth after 2040 on a Sunday evening. And indeed with 8 carriages on every day of the week.

LXFlyer · 21-07-2017 10:18pm

lucernarian wrote: »

I've heard all of this before. I'll still have my doubts.

I again note you didn't refer to the rolling stock issue on the later departures.

Rail transport is terribly neglected in this country but I'm getting sick of CIE excuses and sympathies and I'm seeing Irish Rail more as a part of the problem. There is plenty of rolling stock to serve Maynooth after 2040 on a Sunday evening. And indeed with 8 carriages on every day of the week.

Fine. Believe whatever you want, but again until the 2700s return there aren't going be any significant improvements in peak capacity as the rolling stock isn't available.

The Sunday schedule is an altogether different issue and that needs a complete overhaul with a complete recast and of course there should be later trains.

I didn't think you were complaining about the later trains on weekdays - are 8 piece trains really needed for all of them?

I'd so have you raised it as an issue?

lucernarian · 22-07-2017 9:33am

Yes, a while back. I didn't get a reply though. Normally they do reply also.

cgcsb · 22-07-2017 10:53am

The whole 'let's build a new city' thing is quite worrying, especially when such brainfarts emanate from supposedly learned people. In other small countries they get that they have one city of significance. You don't see Danish, Icelanders, Luxembourgers, or even Dutch/Belgians banging on about 'balanced regional development' or building new cities/airports etc. Having one city of significance brings in the bacon, that's the bottom line. I think the problem in Ireland is we were a set of divided tribes before colonisation and have yet to form a coherent national identity that accepts the capital as the centre of our culture.

The 'build-a-new-city' brainfart is especially worrying in a climate where our existing city can't even get funding for an expansion of Dublin bikes, never mind serious rail infrastructure. In that climate, how would you expect the same government to provide infrastructure to the 'new city'. With our ability to speak perfect English comes brain-drain which needs to stop, if we didn't have such devastating brain drain politicians who issue such brain farts would just be unseated.

Idbatterim · 22-07-2017 8:17pm

Don't worry your head about it. It's a comedy proposal. Will never happen! Ireland will have its own space programme before this would ever happen

marno21 · 22-07-2017 8:20pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

Don't worry your head about it. It's a comedy proposal. Will never happen! Ireland will have its own space programme before this would ever happen

Will hopefully be put in the same bin as the "Offaly International Airport" proposals.

22-07-2017 9:25pm

marno21 wrote: »

Will hopefully be put in the same bin as the "Offaly International Airport" proposals.

They tried to resurrect that one earlier this year, but heard nothing since, so I expect that it has sunk without trace again.

D.L.R. · 22-07-2017 11:13pm

Anyone remember the City of the Sacred Heart? *sick bag*

And why the hell are these new city proposals always in bumf*ck boonie Ireland?

Why not promote Drogheda or Dundalk to city status, or combine the North Kildare conurbation. Kilkenny. Waterford.

Much more attractive than another Shannon town experiment in the fearful no mans land of the midlands or in the sideways rain of Donegal.

D.L.R. · 22-07-2017 11:21pm

Meanwhile in Dublin

dublintrafficjam_large.jpg?width=600&s=bn-736306

murphaph · 22-07-2017 11:51pm

Crazy really. We have the entire population of Ireland in the Berlin metropolitan area, roughly the size of county Dublin and don't have traffic jams like in Dublin.

D.L.R. · 23-07-2017 12:13am

murphaph wrote: »

Crazy really. We have the entire population of Ireland in the Berlin metropolitan area, roughly the size of county Dublin and don't have traffic jams like in Dublin.

Germans come to Ireland to experience the thrill of a badly run country. Its like river rafting or bungee jumping for them.

MJohnston · 23-07-2017 12:31am

D.L.R. wrote: »

Germans come to Ireland to experience the thrill of a badly run country. Its like river rafting or bungee jumping for them.

Nah, badly run infrastructure. My German missus tells me all about how badly run plenty of other aspects of German society are.

D.L.R. · 23-07-2017 1:29am

MJohnston wrote: »

Nah, badly run infrastructure. My German missus tells me all about how badly run plenty of other aspects of German society are.

Interesting. Which aspects?

Donegal Storm · 23-07-2017 2:55am

Pretty much everyone worldwide thinks their country is badly run, it's hardly unique to Ireland. In the grand scheme we're doing very well for ourselves, plenty to criticise of course but from reading this place sometimes you'd swear we were some basketcase third world country and not one of the most successful on the planet

Bray Head · 23-07-2017 7:33am

cgcsb wrote: »

In other small countries they get that they have one city of significance. You don't see Danish, Icelanders, Luxembourgers, or even Dutch/Belgians banging on about 'balanced regional development' or building new cities/airports etc.

Actually, infrastructure development in Belgium is incredibly focussed on regional issues! Flanders and Wallonia are (respectively) obsessed with ensuring that they get as much federal spending as each other. The result is that very little gets spent on either!

The traffic on the outskirts of Brussels is horrendous - although inside the city people get around reasonably freely due to a big rail tunnel (1930s) and a Metro system (1970s).

murphaph · 23-07-2017 8:13am

I wouldn't say nothing gets built because of the 50:50 rule in Belgium. In fact the opposite is true.

The classic example is the Charleroi metro...built because money "had" to be spent on infrastructure in Wallonia and then left to rot because the regional government couldn't afford the running costs for a system that never carried enough passengers to make it viable.

It does highlight how "balanced regional development" can lead to white elephants like barely used rail lines running through low density countryside....we know all about that ourselves.

monument · 23-07-2017 9:44am

Donegal Storm wrote: »

Pretty much everyone worldwide thinks their country is badly run, it's hardly unique to Ireland. In the grand scheme we're doing very well for ourselves, plenty to criticise of course but from reading this place sometimes you'd swear we were some basketcase third world country and not one of the most successful on the planet

For a Western European country we are not doing well on infrastructure investment and that's not just a view -- it's a fact.

CatInABox · 23-07-2017 11:03am

Bray Head wrote: »

The traffic on the outskirts of Brussels is horrendous - although inside the city people get around reasonably freely due to a big rail tunnel (1930s) and a Metro system (1970s).

Funnily enough, I only experienced this on a driving holiday recently. Left Brussels and went on the ring road around the city, and spent about 3 hours on it. Madness. Of course, the fact that it was a bank holiday Friday and Trump was in town meant things were much worse than usual, but still....

It was baking hot too, 35 degrees. I thought I was going to die, or that my wife was going to kill me.

D.L.R. · 23-07-2017 12:11pm

Donegal Storm wrote: »

Pretty much everyone worldwide thinks their country is badly run, it's hardly unique to Ireland. In the grand scheme we're doing very well for ourselves, plenty to criticise of course but from reading this place sometimes you'd swear we were some basketcase third world country and not one of the most successful on the planet

No. This broad brush analysis completely ignores the areas Ireland is doing very poorly for a rich Western European nation. We're bottom of the table in terms of infrastructure. We invest less than any other Western European nation. You have to head deep into Eastern Europe to find a country with as primitive a system as ours.

Its like a weeping wound just leaking GDP, like a dripping pipe in the water table. Its just bad economics.

I wouldn't go so far as to call our infrastructure third world, but it certainly isn't first world.

Donegal Storm · 23-07-2017 1:04pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

No. This broad brush analysis completely ignores the areas Ireland is doing very poorly for a rich Western European nation. We're bottom of the table in terms of infrastructure. We invest less than any other Western European nation. You have to head deep into Eastern Europe to find a country with as primitive a system as ours.

Its like a weeping wound just leaking GDP, like a dripping pipe in the water table. Its just bad economics.

I wouldn't go so far as to call our infrastructure third world, but it certainly isn't first world.

I fully agree we should be spending more in Dublin but there's a whole raft of reasons why we are where we are. The likes of Belgium, Netherlands etc have been wealthy developed countries for generations, we've made massive strides in the past 20 years in catching up. Lack of good PT historically means we've developed a car dependency that was never necessary in core EU cities

We're one of the most sparsely populated countries in western Europe and among the least urbanised. Also being an island means all our infrastructure is point to point so has no larger investment benefit like a lot of inter-country routes on the continent that wouldn't be justified otherwise. We don't have the critical mass for rail outside of Dublin and then there's the whole political/cultural can of worms of Dublin vs the west.

Aside from the need for major rail investment in Dublin and a few big road projects elsewhere (much of which will hopefully happen in the coming decade) I'd say we have the makings of a decent first world network considering the above points.

McAlban · 23-07-2017 1:44pm

I've spent a lot of time in Munich, Berlin and North Rhine-Westphalia/Hesse over the last 13 years. Yes There is excellent public infrastructure. But there is also huge social deprivation. I spent a month there in October, streets are filthy, homeless everywhere. Lots of groups of immigrants congregating in the square. Pickpockets and muggers apparently everywhere. I know all cities have this, but to me Germany was not pleasant the last time I was there.

While we were there some European colleagues were astounded we got a taxi to the office the first day. explaining we could walk 5 minutes from the hotel and get the U-Bahn to the Hauptbahnhoff and walk the 300m to the office. It's a different mentality totally. Because they expect even a minor city of 500k people to have good public infrastructure.

D Trent · 17-09-2017 9:11pm

https://fora.ie/dart-underground-dublin-delays-3598155-Sep2017/

dublinman1990 · 18-09-2017 12:54am

If the project head said that this project is a cashflow issue; where does that issue arise? Is the issue of funding from the NTA or our own government? If the question of EU funding for the project is still on the table for the project; why not just apply for it, save it for just building the DU and not spend it on anything else? Will the Irish economy be at risk of overheating itself again because of providing new funding for DU along with other essential projects that are going to become a lot more expensive in the long term?

marno21 · 18-09-2017 12:56am

dublinman1990 wrote: »

If the project head said that this project is a cashflow issue; where does that issue arise? Is the issue of funding from the NTA or our own government? If the question of EU funding for the project is still on the table for the project; why not just apply for it, save it for just building the DU and not spend it on anything else? Will the Irish economy be at risk of overheating itself again because of providing new funding for DU along with other essential projects that are going to become a lot more expensive in the long term?

Government. NTA can't fund a captial project like this itself. Only the DART Extension to Balbriggan (stupid ****) is included in the Capital plan, along with a redesign of the DART Underground tunnel.

dublinman1990 · 18-09-2017 1:06am

marno21 wrote: »

Government. NTA can't fund a captial project like this itself. Only the DART Extension to Balbriggan (stupid ****) is included in the Capital plan, along with a redesign of the DART Underground tunnel.

On your point about the extension to Balbriggan; Yeah I do agree this part of the plan is also completely stupid to be put in now and only should be done after the DART extension to Maynooth. And yet again even more money is being wasted on the stupid redesign of DU.

I suppose the only thing on the cashflow side currently delaying funding for DU is money for housing, health and the new PS pay deal.

bk · 18-09-2017 11:37am

dublinman1990 wrote: »

I suppose the only thing on the cashflow side currently delaying funding for DU is money for housing, health and the new PS pay deal.

I suspect Metro North is the biggest issue. It was never likely that both MN and DU would go ahead at the same time. They are both just too big a project and cost too much to happen at the same time. Really we can only afford one major project at a time.

Metro North is politically a much easier sell then DU, so it was likely to get the go ahead first and that seems to be the case, likely a major announcement on this coming in a few weeks.

I suspect we will see the focus being on building Metro North over the next 5 to 7 years, taking us into the mid 2020's and then hopefully work will begin on DU.

dublinman1990 · 18-09-2017 9:33pm

bk wrote: »

I suspect Metro North is the biggest issue. It was never likely that both MN and DU would go ahead at the same time. They are both just too big a project and cost too much to happen at the same time. Really we can only afford one major project at a time.

Metro North is politically a much easier sell then DU, so it was likely to get the go ahead first and that seems to be the case, likely a major announcement on this coming in a few weeks.

I suspect we will see the focus being on building Metro North over the next 5 to 7 years, taking us into the mid 2020's and then hopefully work will begin on DU.

I would agree with that too about MN. Both projects do have a huge price tag upon them to let the government, the NTA, IE & the RPA to begin construction on two projects at the same time. I suspect that when either one of the projects gets the go ahead to get built. I will be happy with any decision by being patient to allow one project get built at a time to prevent conflicts of interests & when a lack of funding from all parties involved in the projects does not arise. It is good that patience is a strong virtue in people as a lot of potential headaches can become a victim of unravelling itself as a lot of stuff dealing with the Irish PS can be like that regularly.

marno21 · 18-09-2017 9:37pm

Metro North + DART Expansion to Maynooth would be a good compromise between now and 2026. Then you have ~250-350m knocked off the price of DART Expansion and hopefully the DART Expansion would be ready to go for 2025/6 when Metro North is complete.

This, unfortunately, to have both open by 2031/2, seems to be wildly optimistic at present.

rocketspocket · 20-09-2017 11:04am

Look at crossrail - they just got their heads down and got on with it & that project is exponentially more complex than Dart underground - seems what we do best is just talk and talk about a project without actually doing anything.

D.L.R. · 20-09-2017 11:28am

rocketspocket wrote: »

Look at crossrail - they just got their heads down and got on with it & that project is exponentially more complex that Dart underground - seems what we do best is just talk and talk about a project without actually doing anything.

London has 10x the population and 10x the GDP of Dublin. I worry that we've bit off way more than we can chew attempting a full size rail tunnel under Dublin with 200m platforms etc, when a light rail version would be just as welcome.

Why do Irish Rail even need to be involved? EU rules state that rail infrastructure and rail services are not to be monopolised by one company.

They should just build it through TII. Its time the tail stopped wagging the dog and the state brought Irish Rail to heel because its clear they are one of the major contributing factors to this project's failure to get going.

The fact Metro North has leapfrogged DU in the govt's to do list is clear evidence of that.

Sam Russell · 20-09-2017 11:33am

D.L.R. wrote: »

London has 10x the population and 10x the GDP of Dublin. I worry that we've bit off way more than we can chew attempting a full size rail tunnel under Dublin with 200m platforms etc, when a light rail version would be just as welcome.

Why do Irish Rail even need to be involved? EU rules state that rail infrastructure and rail services are not to be monopolised by one company.

They should just build it through TII. Its time the tail stopped wagging the dog and the state brought Irish Rail to heel because its clear they are one of the major contributing factors to this project's failure to get going.

The fact Metro North has leapfrogged DU in the govt's to do list is clear evidence of that.

It is only clear evidence that the Gov does not want IR involved in anything as they think they are a basket case.

D.L.R. · 20-09-2017 11:36am

Sam Russell wrote: »

It is only clear evidence that the Gov does not want IR involved in anything as they think they are a basket case.

Right, so does that not also mean they should get on with reforming it or abolishing it, instead of just standing by letting the railways rot and ignoring DU as a concept?

Sam Russell · 20-09-2017 11:40am

D.L.R. wrote: »

Right, so does that not also mean they should get on with reforming it or abolishing it, instead of just standing by letting the railways rot and ignoring DU as a concept?

Well, the Gov have a very high commitment to roads - rails not so much.

D.L.R. · 20-09-2017 11:45am

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, the Gov have a very high commitment to roads - rails not so much.

And that's a problem if you want to improve urban PT.

CatInABox · 20-09-2017 12:30pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

Right, so does that not also mean they should get on with reforming it or abolishing it, instead of just standing by letting the railways rot and ignoring DU as a concept?

The Irish Rail unions are basically the most powerful/worst of the bunch, any reform or abolishment would result in either huge demands (A ten minute scehdule!?!?!? We'd need a 50% increase for that), or huge, multi-union strikes.

MJohnston · 20-09-2017 12:51pm

CatInABox wrote: »

The Irish Rail unions are basically the most powerful/worst of the bunch, any reform or abolishment would result in either huge demands (A ten minute scehdule!?!?!? We'd need a 50% increase for that), or huge, multi-union strikes.

Might be better off making Dart Underground, and thereby Irish Rail, rather obsolete by instead pushing ahead with potential Dublin Metro lines that would negate the need for DU.

D.L.R. · 20-09-2017 12:54pm

CatInABox wrote: »

The Irish Rail unions are basically the most powerful/worst of the bunch, any reform or abolishment would result in either huge demands (A ten minute scehdule!?!?!? We'd need a 50% increase for that), or huge, multi-union strikes.

Well they're driving themselves into extinction with their idiotic demands. Govt needs to step in and take responsibility instead of sitting idly by waiting for the whole thing to collapse.

rocketspocket · 20-09-2017 12:59pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Might be better off making Dart Underground, and thereby Irish Rail, rather obsolete by instead pushing ahead with potential Dublin Metro lines that would negate the need for DU.

I don't see how the metro lines negate DU; if anything I would choose DU over MN as its has much greater impact to dublin as a whole.

MJohnston · 20-09-2017 1:20pm

rocketspocket wrote: »

I don't see how the metro lines negate DU; if anything I would choose DU over MN as its has much greater impact to dublin as a whole.

I said potential Metro lines, and by that (and sorry, it probably wasn't clear) I mean other lines that come after the North and Green Line upgrades. I think there are completely hypothetical Metro West routes (unrelated to the abandoned MW) that could relieve a lot of the pressure on the demands for DU, without simply duplicating the existing rail lines.

bk · 20-09-2017 1:43pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

London has 10x the population and 10x the GDP of Dublin. I worry that we've bit off way more than we can chew attempting a full size rail tunnel under Dublin with 200m platforms etc, when a light rail version would be just as welcome.

Plus an elected Mayor and a lot more local power.

D.L.R. wrote: »

Why do Irish Rail even need to be involved? EU rules state that rail infrastructure and rail services are not to be monopolised by one company.

They should just build it through TII. Its time the tail stopped wagging the dog and the state brought Irish Rail to heel because its clear they are one of the major contributing factors to this project's failure to get going.

DU would be definitely built by TII, as will the Dublin Metro and all major infrastructure projects. The issue is you then need to get Irish Rail to actually use it!

Look at the problems with the 10 minute DART schedule. The government spends millions on the city center resignalling project on the promise of increased services, only for them to turn around and say, oh we can't operate that schedule!

Irish Rail is 160 million in debt and on the brink of bankruptcy and has very serious industrial relations issues. Given that, you can easily see why the government is slow to invest 4 billion in that mess.

MJohnston wrote: »

I said potential Metro lines, and by that (and sorry, it probably wasn't clear) I mean other lines that come after the North and Green Line upgrades. I think there are completely hypothetical Metro West routes (unrelated to the abandoned MW) that could relieve a lot of the pressure on the demands for DU, without simply duplicating the existing rail lines.

Another possibility would be to build an East to West Metro, through a regenerated Dublin Port, through the city center roughly following the DU route and out to Lucan, etc.

Would likely be much cheaper to build and would avoid all the issues with Irish Rail.

It wouldn't be as beneficial to existing DART services, but still would be an ok solution with just one change, which isn't unusual for most cities public transport networks. You just need to get true integrated ticketing.

I'm not saying this is likely to happen, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if it is in the back of the planners heads as a plan B.

antoinolachtnai · 20-09-2017 2:01pm

The intent is that CIE would build DU and the legislation is certainly set up like that.

CIE is intended as an infrastructure company as much as, and really more than, an operating company.

CIE certainly needs to completely transform to make these sorts of high-frequency services work.

I would say that CIE needs to find an international partner (a foreign railway company who would take a stake) to really make its transition from a regional operator to an urban operator.

bk · 20-09-2017 2:22pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The intent is that CIE would build DU and the legislation is certainly set up like that.

If that is true, then I'd personally say it is dead! Not chance at all it will happen. It will get scrapped and probably eventually a Metro built instead. If TII was building it at least some chance, but CIE definitely won't be trusted with a 4 billion project.

marno21 · 20-09-2017 2:27pm

bk wrote: »

If that is true, then I'd personally say it is dead! Not chance at all it will happen. It will get scrapped and probably eventually a Metro built instead. If TII was building it at least some chance, but CIE definitely won't be trusted with a 4 billion project.

TII need to be given the remit of all transport infrastructure development. Then it has a chance

It would be irresponsible to give CIE that much money for anything let alone something that'll become union leverage

bk · 20-09-2017 2:34pm

marno21 wrote: »

TII need to be given the remit of all transport infrastructure development. Then it has a chance

It would be irresponsible to give CIE that much money for anything let alone something that'll become union leverage

Yes, I thought they looked after all new transport infrastructure, but having just checked, you are right, it is just roads and light rail (which includes Metro). But not heavy rail, that comes under CIE.

No wonder DU has been sidelined so.

If heavy rail infrastructure came under TII, then I could see some hope. But if not, that Plan B I mentioned could become a real runner.

Might explain the rename of Matro North to Dublin Metro, not only because it is going further south, but to also position it for future lines.

LXFlyer · 20-09-2017 2:42pm

marno21 wrote: »

TII need to be given the remit of all transport infrastructure development. Then it has a chance

It would be irresponsible to give CIE that much money for anything let alone something that'll become union leverage

Unions have had very little influence over capital investment projects. That is a complete red herring.

The issue has been always been with regard to operations.

marno21 · 20-09-2017 2:46pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Unions have had very little influence over capital investment projects. That is a complete red herring.

The issue has been always been with regard to operations.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant that DU could be under construction and scheduled to open at the end of the year and the Unions would suddenly use it as an excuse to demand a pay rise or similar; and then you have another strike. So the net cost of DU then rises even further. Something the Government doesn't want.

bk · 20-09-2017 3:01pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Unions have had very little influence over capital investment projects. That is a complete red herring.

The issue has been always been with regard to operations.

They have a very strong indirect effect.

For instance, the government spent 10's of millions on lengthening the DART platforms so that they can take 8 carriage DARTS. The drivers refused to operate the longer trains on "safety grounds". Eventually the government agreed to pay them an extra €10k each and suddenly said safety issues go away!

Same with current issues with 10 minute DARTS, etc.

The nightmare scenario would be for the government to spend 4 billion on building DU, only for the drivers to refuse to operate through it on some "safety grounds", while holding out for more money, etc.

Can you imagine the bad press if that happened. Politicians don't want bad press like that, better to avoid the problem completely.

The truth is that the unions and staff have such a dysfunctional relationship with their own management and the government in general, that I think the government has zero interest in investing in IR and growing it. Not when they have a much easier alternative in Luas/Metro.

LXFlyer · 20-09-2017 3:07pm

bk wrote: »

They have a very strong indirect effect.

For instance, the government spent 10's of millions on lengthening the DART platforms so that they can take 8 carriage DARTS. The drivers refused to operate the longer trains on "safety grounds". Eventually the government agreed to pay them an extra €10k each and suddenly said safety issues go away!

Same with current issues with 10 minute DARTS, etc.

The nightmare scenario would be for the government to spend 4 billion on building DU, only for the drivers to refuse to operate through it on some "safety grounds", while holding out for more money, etc.

Can you imagine the bad press if that happened. Politicians don't want bad press like that, better to avoid the problem completely.

The truth is that the unions and staff have such a dysfunctional relationship with their own management and the government in general, that I think the government has zero interest in investing in IR and growing it. Not when they have a much easier alternative in Luas/Metro.

Complete rubbish.

The DART drivers did not get one cent extra for operating the longer trains.

They looked for it, but they never got it.

At least get your facts correct about something like this.

LXFlyer · 20-09-2017 3:28pm

marno21 wrote: »

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant that DU could be under construction and scheduled to open at the end of the year and the Unions would suddenly use it as an excuse to demand a pay rise or similar; and then you have another strike. So the net cost of DU then rises even further. Something the Government doesn't want.

Regardless of who builds DU, the same drivers would end up operating it.

It takes 18 months to train up new drivers - do you seriously think that they're going to hire completely new drivers and then remove all the current ones?

Hence my skepticism regarding who builds it - the issue of potential pay claims would be there regardless.

LUAS and Metro can only go so far - there has to be heavy rail investment in Dublin sooner rather than later and not investing in it because of preconceived notions (as some here have) is frankly going to result in Dublin grinding to a standstill.

I'm already noticing the impact of the measures on the Dublin Quays for example with traffic moving to other areas such as the SCR which don't have proper bus priority measures and longer journey times as a result.

DART Underground is a necessity if this city isn't going to become a glorified car park.

DART+ (DART Expansion)

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