Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Keep abortion out of Ireland

Options
1…1819212324…65

Comments

  • Options
    #602
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    nope


  • Options
    #603
    Wh1stler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 276 ✭✭Wh1stler


    bluewolf wrote: »
    nope

    Quelle surprise! :)


  • Options
    #604
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    bluewolf wrote: »
    nope

    Your not Christian and you are trying to convince Christians in a Christian Forum to disregard their beliefs.


  • Options
    #605
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    whitemocha wrote: »
    certain Trisomy 13 survive(but not often) full trisomy with hygromas dont i think i would be better to listen to a proffessional then you

    Listen all you want.. Just because a professional says something does not alter the Dignity of a person. Life begins at conception (not at birth), Until your child actually dies, he/she is still your child inside or outside the womb... Doctors should not decide who dies and when a person should die... Nobody should.


  • Options
    #606
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Your not Christian and you are trying to convince Christians in a Christian Forum to disregard their beliefs.

    I believe I was addressing whitemocha earlier, not you. I haven't suggested you change any beliefs


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #607
    whitemocha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭whitemocha


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Listen all you want.. Just because a professional says something does not alter the Dignity of a person. Life begins at conception (not at birth), Until your child actually dies, he/she is still your child inside or outside the womb... Doctors should not decide who dies and when a person should die... Nobody should.


    funny really you sound like the least christian like person i know


  • Options
    #608
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    hattoncracker wrote: »
    abortion is something that is not spoken about because it's too painful, and because of the way, automatically, women are judged for having one, just like you, saying that it is "probably" because theyre ashamed.

    I'm not ashamed of the choices I made. I Do not regret them. I never will, and I don't hate myself for it, and I will not let someone else hate me for it. But one person who I thought was my friend gave me dogs abuse for even considering it. So I learned to keep it to myself, and it was not being able to talk about it that has me in counselling now, not the abortion itself.

    I would not wish being in that situation on anyone. No one ever understands unless they've been there (and by being there, I'm talking about being a woman who has had to make that choice, or her partner).

    You have never personally been in the situations that me or the other lady on this thread have, so your
    opinion, whether based on religion or personal choice, should not affect the ability for other women to make that choice. That is why abortion should be legalised. You only ever hear about the women with abortions for eye colour, or those ridiculous other reasons you read about. You never hear about the quiet, grief stricken, terrified women who every singe day have to leave on a jet plane to another country, who only just want their own bed, and their own local Chinese or whatever else that would give them one nice memory on what they will look back on as being one of the most horrible days in their lives, but can't have it because this country does not recognise their rights to a safe abortion in their own country.

    Its not because of shame, that you dont hear the stories I can tell you. Its because it's easier to keep it to yourself than to have your decisions disected and judged without the least bit of consideration as to how hard that decision was.

    I'm against abortion on an ethical level, I'm also a Christian, although not a very good one. But I want to thank you for sharing your story - no one has the right to judge you, and less still to hate you. I think if one is opposed to abortion, we are obliged to listen to the hard cases and choices which women have enough to make, just as those who support abortion rights should inform themselves as to what is involved. There is way to much shouting over each other on this issue, and it is easy to forget that every woman who has an abortion or considers one is a human being who is going through a really rough time. Hopefully there is some common ground to be found around creating circumstances in which crisis pregnancies are reduced over time. Anyway, I'm just a little concerned that some of the posters seem to view women in that situation as an abstraction, so I wanted to wish you all the best, especially with the counselling.

    Edit: Same goes for you Whitemocha, will listen to the interview when I get a chance.


  • Options
    #609
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    whitemocha wrote: »
    funny really you sound like the least christian like person i know


    Its my faith I defend the right to life. I am not attacking you as a person. I am attacking the sin of Abortion.

    Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law.

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm

    I can't forgive you, I am not God. I respect you as a person. But I can't make a wrong right. If you don't see this as Christian. Then there is nothing we can discuss.


  • Options
    #610
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    whitemocha wrote: »
    thats ok i never needed nor wanted your forgiveness beacuse what i did was right for the baby i prevented my baby for surfering for a few hours.

    But i will forgive you for being ignorant, narrow minded, and slightly deluded because i am a good person and thats what good people do.

    Well thats your opinion... so christians are deluded because we don't believe in abortion... Its called faith. There are many ways to stop a person suffering... Killing them is not an option. Are you in the forum looking to change out faith?


  • Options
    #611
    hattoncracker
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Well thats your opinion... so christians are deluded because we don't believe in abortion... Its called faith. There are many ways to stop a person suffering... Killing them is not an option. Are you in the forum looking to change out faith?

    Reading your posts, and what you are saying, is exactly why religion should have no basis in the law, because you do not know the gravity of what you are saying. You say it, because it is what you were taught, you are coming at it from a religious perspective, which you are confusing with a moral perspective. You do not see it from an unbiased perspective.
    So this thread should be kept for Christians only to peddle their unrealistic, untrue and unworldly views, where they can come to vilify, attack and look at the people who make these decisions as heartless because they weren't ready for a child, or stupid because they listened to their doctor. And your views should never be part of the law, or even acknowledged when writing it.

    If you ever want to step out from behind the veil of your religion and have an ethical talk, about the decisions that are made, then post it in another forum so that when someone posts something that you don't like, you can't just retort with 'you're not Christian so your view does not matter here!' Here it is accepted but to me it screams of 'LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU! ABORTION IS WRONG!!'


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #612
    whitemocha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 135 ✭✭whitemocha


    Backseat modding deleted


  • Options
    #613
    hattoncracker
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    whitemocha wrote: »
    well said hattoncracker you said what i wanted to say but in a very artiulate INTELLIGENT manor
    Backseat modding deleted


    I got your back love. ;-)


  • Options
    #614
    dj357
    Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭dj357


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Well thats your opinion... so christians are deluded because we don't believe in abortion... Its called faith. There are many ways to stop a person suffering... Killing them is not an option. Are you in the forum looking to change out faith?

    As mentioned by hattoncracker, faith has no place in the laws of a country. We are a pluralistic state and everyone has a right to their beliefs, but likewise, while not actually enshrined in law, 21st century morality has brought us to the point where everyone in any given society should also have freedom from the persecution of other's beliefs.

    Furthermore, Christ's main, albeit unoriginal, teaching was to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Women who have to have or indeed choose to have abortions are, for the majority, merely following this Golden Rule. As in the case of whitemocha, were she to find herself in her child's position, she would rather not be born than to suffer needlessly. As a woman and as the one responsible for the potential life growing within her, this is her right. Your faith may bring you to condemn whether she chooses to bring a child into the world or not but you do not have the right to condemn her under the law based upon said faith. You want to keep abortion out of Ireland? I say keep Religion out of Irish laws!


  • Options
    #615
    gimmebroadband
    Registered Users Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    A relative of mine gave birth to a severly handicapped baby boy, who died 2 days after birth. She eventually found solice in that she was able to have him baptised and given a name, and a christian burial, as oppose to being thrown in a dumpster as garbage! :(


  • Options
    #616
    gimmebroadband
    Registered Users Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    dj357 wrote: »
    As mentioned by hattoncracker, faith has no place in the laws of a country. We are a pluralistic state and everyone has a right to their beliefs, but likewise, while not actually enshrined in law, 21st century morality has brought us to the point where everyone in any given society should also have freedom from the persecution of other's beliefs.

    Furthermore, Christ's main, albeit unoriginal, teaching was to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Women who have to have or indeed choose to have abortions are, for the majority, merely following this Golden Rule. As in the case of whitemocha, were she to find herself in her child's position, she would rather not be born than to suffer needlessly. As a woman and as the one responsible for the potential life growing within her, this is her right. Your faith may bring you to condemn whether she chooses to bring a child into the world or not but you do not have the right to condemn her under the law based upon said faith. You want to keep abortion out of Ireland? I say keep Religion out of Irish laws!

    At the end of our lives, we are judged by God's law, not man's law!


  • Options
    #617
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    dj357 wrote: »
    Furthermore, Christ's main, albeit unoriginal, teaching was to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Women who have to have or indeed choose to have abortions are, for the majority, merely following this Golden Rule.

    So these women would be happy to have their babies kill them? Like, really?


  • Options
    #618
    hattoncracker
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    gimmebroadband wrote: »
    A relative of mine gave birth to a severly handicapped baby boy, who died 2 days after birth. She eventually found solice in that she was able to have him baptised and given a name, and a christian burial, as oppose to being thrown in a dumpster as garbage! :(

    That was the right choice for her, doesn't mean it's the right choice for everyone and just because she made that decision doesn't mean that every woman should have to. I'm not attacking your relative, I really feel for what she went through, and being "thrown out in a dumpster as garbage" is not what happened to whitemocha, she was able to spend time with her baby, and brought the remains home and had a service. That remark is not very well researched.


  • Options
    #619
    muppeteer
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭muppeteer


    Really PDN?
    A fetus is not a conscious, sapient being. The do unto others principle holds if use the example of her own mother being in a similar situation. She herself would not have been inconvenienced in the slightest by not existing and would in fact be very inconvenienced by being allowed to develop the capacity for suffering should she have a severely handicapping condition.

    A baby killing the mother is sometimes a possibility (ectopic pregnancies) and the mother obviously does not allow the fetus to kill her, as she is a conscious, sapient being capable of valuing her own life. Killing the fetus is not a comparable other to do unto, as it does not have the same human qualities.


  • Options
    #620
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    muppeteer wrote: »
    Really PDN?
    A fetus is not a conscious, sapient being. .

    At stages of the pregnancy where abortion is allowed on mainland UK yes it is.


  • Options
    #621
    muppeteer
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭muppeteer


    Very well, to clarify, an early stage foetus is not conscious, it cannot feel pain.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #622
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    muppeteer wrote: »
    She herself would not have been inconvenienced in the slightest by not existing .

    Charming. Says it all really.


  • Options
    #623
    muppeteer
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭muppeteer


    PDN wrote: »
    Charming. Says it all really.
    Says what exactly? How is this charming?


  • Options
    #624
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    A selection of DIY anti Abortion bumper stickers.

    http://www.lovethetruth.com/evils/abortion/prolife_graphics.htm


  • Options
    #625
    Sin City
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    muppeteer wrote: »
    Really PDN?
    A fetus is not a conscious, sapient being. The do unto others principle holds if use the example of her own mother being in a similar situation. She herself would not have been inconvenienced in the slightest by not existing and would in fact be very inconvenienced by being allowed to develop the capacity for suffering should she have a severely handicapping condition.

    A baby killing the mother is sometimes a possibility (ectopic pregnancies) and the mother obviously does not allow the fetus to kill her, as she is a conscious, sapient being capable of valuing her own life. Killing the fetus is not a comparable other to do unto, as it does not have the same human qualities.

    1 When exactly do we develop consciousness then? When does a foetus become a baby? Or when does life exist? The fact that a fetus can develop consciousness and has a chance at becomming human then it can still be considered murder.


    2 Define human qualities?

    In your mind should we kill the mentally disabled?
    The physically disabled

    Sure newborns have no idea of the value of their own life so lets do away with them too?


  • Options
    #626
    hattoncracker
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    A selection of DIY anti Abortion bumper stickers.

    http://www.lovethetruth.com/evils/abortion/prolife_graphics.htm

    In response:

    http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/251fa6410b/women-s-health-experts-speak-out

    This is what I think of abortion law in Ireland.


  • Options
    #627
    Sin City
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    hattoncracker wrote: »
    In response:

    http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/251fa6410b/women-s-health-experts-speak-out

    This is what I think of abortion law in Ireland.

    Lol priceless


  • Options
    #628
    hattoncracker
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    Sin City wrote: »
    Lol priceless

    And very sadly, quite true.


  • Options
    #629
    gimmebroadband
    Registered Users Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    Sin City wrote: »
    Thats sick man

    Seriously

    There is no need for shock tactics in a ethical debate

    I'm sorry, but abortion is shocking - pictures say it better than words! :(


  • Options
    #630
    Sin City
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    gimmebroadband wrote: »
    I'm sorry, but abortion is shocking - pictures say it better than words! :(

    Im sorry gimmiebroadbanned, but lets face facts

    That isnt a foetus so its false advertising
    Trying to tug at the heart strings

    Im against abortion but I believe being able to have a civilised rational discussion/debate without the need for shock tactics

    Abortion is an emotive action and does not need these graphic images to be shown


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #631
    muppeteer
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭muppeteer


    Sin City wrote: »
    1 When exactly do we develop consciousness then? When does a foetus become a baby? Or when does life exist? The fact that a fetus can develop consciousness and has a chance at becomming human then it can still be considered murder.
    Research suggests that conscious capacity for pain is not present in a fetus before 23-30 weeks.
    Life exists continually but I suspect you mean to ask when does a embryo/fetus become a human being/person.

    2 Define human qualities?
    Human qualities are fairly broadly defined as I see it, but I would generally say that human qualities are that we are conscious, sapient animals.
    In your mind should we kill the mentally disabled?
    The physically disabled
    No, we should protect any human person who has the capability for suffering/happiness.
    Would I see the killing of humans in Permanent Vegetative States as murder? No, as there is no person there to murder if the brain is already destroyed.
    Sure newborns have no idea of the value of their own life so lets do away with them too?
    They have no conscious value of their own life but they are capable of suffering and of pleasure and so deserve protection from unnecessary suffering, including death.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement