Does anyone else think getting married is just a very bad idea.

Wibbs · 18-06-2010 10:39am

consultech wrote: »

The way I see it (and didn't always mind you) is that in this day and age, if a woman is willing to give up a career, mother your children and raise them, and often mother you to an extent aswell - then she should have some guarantees on the off-chance you have a mid life crisis and shack up with some 25 year old.

I agree 100%. Both should have guarantees and security for their children. The problem is its not equitable enough. We've gone from one stupid extreme where women had little or no rights to another stupid extreme where the men's rights are limited. In the honourable and seriously needed drive to address the former, we've let things slide with regard to the latter.

StormWarrior · 18-06-2010 11:05am

Wibbs wrote: »

All sorts of reasons. Security, legal reasons, tradition.
Again tradition.

I think you've misunderstood what I was saying. I wasn't saying there's no reason than kids to get married, I was responding to a poster who said that marriage is only to help women bring up kids, I was disagreeing with him.

Wibbs wrote: »

Not all thankfully, but more women think on the subject of marriage than men.
Plus many men buy into the idea that they have a limited enough choice. Its a subconscious thing, so if they do meet and kick off a relationship, they think this is as good as it gets and want to secure it.

I totally disagree, these days I don't know any couple where the woman wanted marriage more than the man, men are the ones pushing for marriage nowadays. Women seem much more likely to want to keep their freedom and options open. I myself have had 3 men trying to persuade me to marry them but I am the one who didn't want that. Even the couples of my age who are married, it was the man who did the pushing for it.

Your first and second points don't really match up, first you said it's the woman who wants marriage more, then you said that men think this is as good as it gets and want to secure it. Whatever the man's reasons, however much he complains later that he was pushed into it, no-one forces a man to get married, he can say no.

StormWarrior · 18-06-2010 11:08am

Wibbs wrote: »

For a helluva lot of wedding days he is. The day itself while being for the couple is much more aimed at the bride. It's "her" day. A lot more women fantasise from early on about their wedding days than men ever do. They think on it more. Look at the traditional type dress code. The primary males are all dressed identically. The bride is the one in the fancy gear, so outrageously fancy that no female guest could possibly upstage her. Then the collection of bridesmaids and their specialised fancy gear.

http://www.m2review.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/weddingparty1.jpg

That's what I mean by "prop". I dont mean it in a negative way, though with some it can be, like anything really. Too many IMHO think about the engagement, the plans for the wedding and the wedding itself, rather than the marriage.

Don't you think you're generalising a bit, not all women go for the £30000 wedding with merange dress and 75 bridesmaids. Some men also choose their own special clothes for the wedding day believe it or not! You sound quite bitter about the whole thing, did you get burned?

18-06-2010 11:26am

Wibbs wrote: »

For a helluva lot of wedding days he is. The day itself while being for the couple is much more aimed at the bride. It's "her" day. A lot more women fantasise from early on about their wedding days than men ever do.

Maybe more do, but that doesn't mean most. I think you're really over generalising. I know there is a stereotype of it, and I know all the ones who DO go for the big wedding love spouting off "all little girls dream of this day" - but it's just not true.

They think on it more. Look at the traditional type dress code. The primary males are all dressed identically.

Men are generally dressed identically in suits

The bride is the one in the fancy gear, so outrageously fancy that no female guest could possibly upstage her.

I don't know what kind of wedding dresses you've been looking at... !

Too many IMHO think about the engagement, the plans for the wedding and the wedding itself, rather than the marriage.

Now that part is true.

thebigbiffo · 18-06-2010 11:28am

240 guests, 6 bridesmaids and 6 grooomsmen (and i'm not even a traveller), 240 four course meals, 2 bands, 1 bride and 1 groom, 1 bank loan for 15,000 euros and 1 bill of about 30k.

my advice...get a marqee, even my wife regrets it now.

big marriages are fcukin dumb

consultech · 18-06-2010 11:29am

Wibbs wrote: »

I agree 100%. Both should have guarantees and security for their children. The problem is its not equitable enough. We've gone from one stupid extreme where women had little or no rights to another stupid extreme where the men's rights are limited. In the honourable and seriously needed drive to address the former, we've let things slide with regard to the latter.

I agree with this too, I think society has definitely knee-jerked in the entirely wrong direction. Ah sure balanced middle-ground sex equality is far too-complicated-a-concept to expect the powers that be to grasp.

easyeason3 · 18-06-2010 11:31am

thebigbiffo wrote: »

240 guests, 6 bridesmaids and 6 grooomsmen (and i'm not even a traveller), 240 four course meals, 2 bands, 1 bride and 1 groom, 1 bank loan for 15,000 euros and 1 bill of about 30k.

my advice...get a marqee, even my wife regrets it now.

big marriages are fcukin dumb

Thought you were going to end that post saying ' wedding day=priceless, for everything else there's mastercard'

consultech · 18-06-2010 11:32am

StormWarrior wrote: »

I myself have had 3 men trying to persuade me to marry them but I am the one who didn't want that.

What's Turkey like this time of year?

NOGMaxpower · 18-06-2010 11:39am

jasus that link is horrid, to think women think like that at all scares the bejasus out of me. feck that if thats how women actually think the devious bitches. steer well clear of marriage.

Engagments too, it puts some sort of legal right of ownership on people. adds stress to otherwise strong relationships. Expectations go through the roof and well ultimately most marriages/engagements ruin good healthy friendships never mind relationships.

Marriage may work if:
You get a prenup
Make sure you bank accounts are always seperate
Make sure you other half always works and contributes fairly to the home

Actually scratch that enter a woman scorned and you're fecked. Priesthood here i come.

thebigbiffo · 18-06-2010 11:41am

easyeason3 wrote: »

Thought you were going to end that post saying ' wedding day=priceless, for everything else there's mastercard'

i'd never have a mastercard with a limit that'd cover that useless crap

consultech · 18-06-2010 11:41am

NOGMaxpower wrote: »

jasus that link is horrid, to think women think like that at all scares the bejasus out of me. feck that if thats how women actually think the devious bitches. steer well clear of marriage.

"Emotional rape" FTW.

IvyTheTerrible · 18-06-2010 11:43am

NOGMaxpower wrote: »

Marriage may work if:
You get a prenup
Make sure you bank accounts are always seperate
Make sure you other half always works and contributes fairly to the home

Prenups have no legal standing in Ireland. She's getting 50%!

prinz · 18-06-2010 11:47am

There's a definite case of self fulfilling prophecy going on here IMO. Go into a marriage with your brain telling you x amount of marriages are doomed to failure and chances are yours will fail too. People have a far too romantic notion of how a marriage should work.

Greyfox · 18-06-2010 12:08pm

StormWarrior wrote: »

I totally disagree, these days I don't know any couple where the woman wanted marriage more than the man, men are the ones pushing for marriage nowadays. Women seem much more likely to want to keep their freedom and options open.

What? are you serious? For me everyone I know will say it's the women who want marriage and the man couldn't care less. I think with the whole biological clock ticking thing it's women overall who need commitment more then men while men are eager to avoid responsibility for as long as possible. Yes theirs some exceptions but this is mainly due to when a guy believes their with a woman that's out of their league and want to do all they can to keep her. I believe the ultimatum of marriage or hit the road given from a women to a man after 5 - 8 years is very, very common and doesn't really happen the other way round. This ultimatum is so common I'm resigned to the fact that I may have to face it myself. Most guys I know believe the wedding is just an expensive party done to "keep her happy". The vast majority of women think of their wedding day when their kids, I reckon this is very rare with men. I don't really know or care wheter I'll ever get married or not as to me it's just a silly piece of paper that doesn't really add much to whats already a great relationship

consultech · 18-06-2010 12:11pm

prinz wrote: »

There's a definite case of self fulfilling prophecy going on here IMO. Go into a marriage with your brain telling you x amount of marriages are doomed to failure and chances are yours will fail too. People have a far too romantic notion of how a marriage should work.

It's called the "Pig-male-ion effect". i.e. Men are pigs and cause failed marriages.

jam_mac_jam · 18-06-2010 12:13pm

I dont think its a bad idea however I just couldnt be arsed. Too expensive and no real point if you are not religious

18-06-2010 12:13pm

Greyfox wrote: »

The vast majority of women think of their wedding day when their kids,

Seriously this isn't true.

Greyfox · 18-06-2010 12:14pm

StormWarrior wrote: »

Your first and second points don't really match up, first you said it's the woman who wants marriage more, then you said that men think this is as good as it gets and want to secure it. Whatever the man's reasons, however much he complains later that he was pushed into it, no-one forces a man to get married, he can say no.

That's because his second point was about the different situatuion of when a man marrys because he doesn't believe he's capable of meeting someone better. Yes men can say no but some men get to the point where they believe the only way to keep their girlfriend happy is to pop the question and if they don't the relationship will go downhill

moonpurple · 18-06-2010 12:27pm

marriage has become very dangerous for irish children
and irish male parents

make a prenup
you may be told it has no legal weight
but some day an irish court will turn around and say
i am accepting this prenup
'The Judge of the Court can decide what they accept and do not accept in proceedings...' Her Honour Mrs justic McGuinness J., Supreme Court
psychologically the existence of the prenup will have its own value but you may only observe that if you find yourself down at the city centre ceremony that really matters

and baby, you will be the last to know if that happens if you are from the roma community of international parenthood

moonpurple · 18-06-2010 12:28pm

marriage has become very dangerous for irish children
and irish male parents

make a prenup
you may be told it has no legal weight
but no one can rule out that some day an Irish Judge can turn around and say
i am accepting this prenup
'The Judge of the Court can decide what they accept and do not accept in proceedings...' Her Honour Mrs Justice McGuinness C., Supreme Court
either way psychologically the existence of the prenup will have its own value but you may only observe that if you find yourself down at the city centre ceremony that really matters

and baby, you will be the last to know if that happens if you are from the roma community of Irish parenthood

Prof.Badass · 18-06-2010 12:37pm

Dudess wrote: »

No? But if you don't meet anyone you want to marry, so be it. Getting married to someone you're only kinda into out of fear of dying alone is far more depressing an idea...

Meh....while you won't love your partner you'll still love your children. Better than nothing imo.

DeVore wrote: »

SS, thats correct, for me I dont feel its right, it might be for others. Good for them, I genuinely wish them well. My parents are still very much in love 47 years later.

My point is that its not an inevitability.... imho it should be a LOT rarer then it is.

DeV.

Should raising children be a lot rarer than it is?

Wibbs wrote: »

I think when it works it's a brilliant idea. The problem is it doesnt work to the degree many think. The fact is over a lifetime, the majority of relationships you may have fail. Fail in the sense that they split up, both may learn and grow from the time together. That's non marriage relationships where the notion of together forever legally wasnt reached. If it gets to the point where marriage is considered a good thing, you would think they would be less likely to fail.

The bald stats seem to be that where divorce is relatively straightforward, up to 40% of marriages go belly up. In Sweden(AFAIR) its nearly 60%. Of the others that stay together, how many are healthy relationships? How many stay together because of the kids, or fear of leaving, rather than a mutually beneficial nurturing and healthy partnership? So I reckon the actual figure for good marriages is actually low enough. Throw in different expectations nowadays and different pressures and that figure shrinks even more IMHO.

And what's wrong with that? Maybe I'm being cynical, but I thought that was the whole point of marraige, children.

Idk, maybe i'm being naieve but i'd assume that if both parties are mature, respectful and love their children very much then even if there's no passion between them overall the relationship will be fine.
This is what i have set my expectations at, I hope to be pleasantly surprised, but either way marraige (well more a situation where both parents live in the same house with the children) is certainly better than any other alternative i can think of.

Imo, two factors come into play to explain high rates of marraige breakdown;

1. Society is too sex-obsessed, some idiots think they always have to have strong feelings for their partner so when these feelings fade they break up and find someone new (an immature inability to move on from the primarily sex-focused phase of their lives to the primarily child-raising focused phase of their lives)

2. Gender inequality. As you said women are more likely to break up a marraige than men* because let's face it, they've not much to lose. I mean, if a woman is brainwashed enough to not feel any guilt over breaking up the family then divorce/seperation seems like a no-brainer.

*

The Courts Service Annual Report for 2008, released last July, revealed that 58pc of divorce proceedings were initiated by women, as are 72pc of judicial separation proceedings.

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/independent-woman/love-sex/the-rise-of-the-silver-separators-in-ireland-1910086.html#ixzz0rCdW7WXM

The lower rate for divorce is imo explained by the 5 year gap between the two. Unfortunately i do not know what the figures are for non-judicial seperations.

punchdrunk · 18-06-2010 12:39pm

no I can't wait to get married,just got to find a lady friend that can be conned into it!

SugarHigh · 18-06-2010 1:05pm

StormWarrior wrote: »

Don't you think you're generalising a bit, not all women go for the £30000 wedding with merange dress and 75 bridesmaids. Some men also choose their own special clothes for the wedding day believe it or not! You sound quite bitter about the whole thing, did you get burned?

Don't you think you're generalising a bit

Of course he's generalising, do you expect him to give an opinion on every single wedding individually?

You sound quite bitter about the whole thing, did you get burned?

You sound like you're grasping at straws here.

Wibbs · 18-06-2010 2:28pm

StormWarrior wrote: »

I totally disagree, these days I don't know any couple where the woman wanted marriage more than the man, men are the ones pushing for marriage nowadays. Women seem much more likely to want to keep their freedom and options open. I myself have had 3 men trying to persuade me to marry them but I am the one who didn't want that. Even the couples of my age who are married, it was the man who did the pushing for it.

It's age and social grouping dependent of course, but generally over the western world as a whole, marriage is a bigger deal for women. With good reasons too. Stability etc.

Your first and second points don't really match up, first you said it's the woman who wants marriage more, then you said that men think this is as good as it gets and want to secure it. Whatever the man's reasons, however much he complains later that he was pushed into it, no-one forces a man to get married, he can say no.

Greyfox summed my take up. Plus if a man says no, chances are that relationship is on its way out. If the woman says no, the guy's way more likely to stick around. It's not a question of forcing, more cajoling. I've seen it more than a few times over many a year and only once with a man doing the cajoling. Subjective I grant you, but I would reckon a straw poll conducted anonymously on men would agree that the pressure to fit the social expectations of a relationship comes more from women.

IME and of course IMHO women drive relationships more than men as a general thing. They discuss them way more among themselves for a start. They're more likely to drive the waypoints in a relationship too. The "we're official now"/moving in together/engagement/marriage/etc. They're way more likely to come out with the "where are we going?" discussion. They're also far more likely to do the dumping in a long termer when its not following the trajectory. Look at programmes or magazines aimed at women compared to such aimed at men. "How to get/keep/jazz up a relationship". You may not read them, plenty of women don't, but to suggest that men and women are on a parity in this I would feel is maybe you viewing these things from your own subjective experience.

StormWarrior wrote: »

Don't you think you're generalising a bit, not all women go for the £30000 wedding with merange dress and 75 bridesmaids. Some men also choose their own special clothes for the wedding day believe it or not!

Of course Im generalising. My already gargantuan posts would blow the Boards servers if I started getting down to the infinite individual scenarios.

You sound quite bitter about the whole thing, did you get burned?

Thats an all too obvious, hackneyed and emotional response to my side of the debate. To answer you, I would say Ive been burnt and Ive not been burnt. Like anyone. I have seen others, both men and women being burnt over the years. I have to say Ive seen more men being burnt(not me thankfully) and the stats show the same. Two and a half times more likely to die by their own hand as a consequence of divorce. More likely to have divorce brought by the woman in the first place. It's almost a given that they will be financially pressured unequally by a divorce. It is almost a given they will lose the roof over their heads. It is a given they wont get custody of their children. Ask any solicitor working in this field and they will tell you this. One of my closest mates is one such and she is regularly floored by custody given out to unfit mothers.

bluewolf wrote: »

Maybe more do, but that doesn't mean most. I think you're really over generalising. I know there is a stereotype of it, and I know all the ones who DO go for the big wedding love spouting off "all little girls dream of this day" - but it's just not true.

Like I said above, more seem to discuss it. There are countless websites, TV programmes and magazine articles aimed at women that discuss this stuff. That's where the "money" aims for. Hell in my early days here most thought I was a woman, because I seemed to know and talk about relationships. More women than men on here were surprised I wasnt.

Men are generally dressed identically in suits

I don't know what kind of wedding dresses you've been looking at... !

Many moons ago I did a stint as a wedding photographer. So I saw a lot of this up close. You would get the odd groom getting involved, but it was overwhelmingly the women taking charge. A fair few grooms were almost in a daze. As far as wedding dresses go, how many could you wear on an ordinary night out, even a blacktie event?

Now that part is true.

Yay! we agree

Greyfox wrote: »

What? are you serious? For me everyone I know will say it's the women who want marriage and the man couldn't care less. I think with the whole biological clock ticking thing it's women overall who need commitment more then men while men are eager to avoid responsibility for as long as possible. Yes theirs some exceptions but this is mainly due to when a guy believes their with a woman that's out of their league and want to do all they can to keep her. I believe the ultimatum of marriage or hit the road given from a women to a man after 5 - 8 years is very, very common and doesn't really happen the other way round. This ultimatum is so common I'm resigned to the fact that I may have to face it myself. Most guys I know believe the wedding is just an expensive party done to "keep her happy". The vast majority of women think of their wedding day when their kids, I reckon this is very rare with men. I don't really know or care wheter I'll ever get married or not as to me it's just a silly piece of paper that doesn't really add much to whats already a great relationship

Pretty much my and my male mates experience to TBH. Some of my women mates are similar. It's obviously not all women, but it is defo more.

Greyfox wrote: »

That's because his second point was about the different situatuion of when a man marrys because he doesn't believe he's capable of meeting someone better. Yes men can say no but some men get to the point where they believe the only way to keep their girlfriend happy is to pop the question and if they don't the relationship will go downhill

Pretty much.

Wibbs · 18-06-2010 2:31pm

DeVore wrote: »

SS, thats correct, for me I dont feel its right, it might be for others. Good for them, I genuinely wish them well. My parents are still very much in love 47 years later.

My point is that its not an inevitability.... imho it should be a LOT rarer then it is.

DeV.

Actually this and DeVore's other posts sum it up for me. Especially the bit I bolded above.

18-06-2010 2:38pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Many moons ago I did a stint as a wedding photographer. So I saw a lot of this up close. You would get the odd groom getting involved, but it was overwhelmingly the women taking charge. A fair few grooms were almost in a daze. As far as wedding dresses go, how many could you wear on an ordinary night out, even a blacktie event?

Ahh!
Well the point is that they're white generally so I guess you wouldn't see too many

Non-white ones though yeah (and I don't mean pink) you could wear.
I thought you meant the style of the dress was always OTT rather than the colour which is distinctive.

devore wrote:

My point is that its not an inevitability.... imho it should be a LOT rarer then[sic] it is

I do agree with this. I've always disliked the general "well I'll work then find someone to marry and settle down". Puts me on edge. Marriage isn't a to-do list !

Wibbs · 18-06-2010 3:06pm

bluewolf wrote: »

I do agree with this. I've always disliked the general "well I'll work then find someone to marry and settle down". Puts me on edge. Marriage isn't a to-do list !

Both genders can be guilty of it too. One male mate of mine did this. He was hitting 35 and one day announced "its time I should settle down and get married". He was single at this stage. Fast forward just over a year later and he was married. He didnt do the whole, slim down for my wedding stuff, but it was a life event he needed to cross out. Cue blando marriage.

18-06-2010 3:07pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Both genders can be guilty of it too. One male mate of mine did this. He was hitting 35 and one day announced "its time I should settle down and get married". He was single at this stage. Fast forward just over a year later and he was married. He didnt do the whole, slim down for my wedding stuff, but it was a life event he needed to cross out. Cue blando marriage.

Yeah I've heard it out of both sides.
Tis the difference between "I want to marry x" and "I want a husband/wife"...

StormWarrior · 18-06-2010 4:04pm

Greyfox wrote: »

What? are you serious? For me everyone I know will say it's the women who want marriage and the man couldn't care less. I think with the whole biological clock ticking thing it's women overall who need commitment more then men while men are eager to avoid responsibility for as long as possible. Yes theirs some exceptions but this is mainly due to when a guy believes their with a woman that's out of their league and want to do all they can to keep her. I believe the ultimatum of marriage or hit the road given from a women to a man after 5 - 8 years is very, very common and doesn't really happen the other way round. This ultimatum is so common I'm resigned to the fact that I may have to face it myself. Most guys I know believe the wedding is just an expensive party done to "keep her happy". The vast majority of women think of their wedding day when their kids, I reckon this is very rare with men. I don't really know or care wheter I'll ever get married or not as to me it's just a silly piece of paper that doesn't really add much to whats already a great relationship

That is pretty weird, I don't know any woman like that, but then I have never been to Ireland, maybe Irish women are different? I have lived in 4 different countries and never seen anything like what you describe, except in Hollywood films.

StormWarrior · 18-06-2010 4:08pm

Greyfox wrote: »

That's because his second point was about the different situatuion of when a man marrys because he doesn't believe he's capable of meeting someone better. Yes men can say no but some men get to the point where they believe the only way to keep their girlfriend happy is to pop the question and if they don't the relationship will go downhill

Believe it or not, not all men are lily-livered spineless creatures who do whatever their girlfriend says or else. If a man will allow himself to be pushed against his will into something as drastic as marriage, then he can reap what he sows. However, I don't actually believe all this stuff about men just going along with it to shut the woman up, or keep someone who's out of their league. The majority of men who get married do so because they actually want to.

StormWarrior · 18-06-2010 4:14pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Subjective I grant you, but I would reckon a straw poll conducted anonymously on men would agree that the pressure to fit the social expectations of a relationship comes more from women.

IME and of course IMHO women drive relationships more than men as a general thing. They discuss them way more among themselves for a start. They're more likely to drive the waypoints in a relationship too. The "we're official now"/moving in together/engagement/marriage/etc. They're way more likely to come out with the "where are we going?" discussion. They're also far more likely to do the dumping in a long termer when its not following the trajectory.

of women don't, but to suggest that men and women are on a parity in this I would feel is maybe you viewing these things from your own subjective experience.

Well like I said I've lived in 4 different EU countries and never seen anything like what you are describing, the total opposite in fact. So I think you are also viewing things from your subjective experience.

Greyfox · 18-06-2010 4:29pm

StormWarrior wrote: »

Believe it or not, not all men are lily-livered spineless creatures who do whatever their girlfriend says or else. If a man will allow himself to be pushed against his will into something as drastic as marriage, then he can reap what he sows. However, I don't actually believe all this stuff about men just going along with it to shut the woman up, or keep someone who's out of their league. The majority of men who get married do so because they actually want to.

Not really saying they are, but most people will accept the fact that when it comes to marriage it's mostly the women who are pushing for it much more mainly because women get asked about where a relationship is going from their family more then men do

Theirs been loads of posts in the relationship issues forum where in a long term relationship the guy is in will marry "one day" and the women is wondering if she should give an ultimatum as she wants commitment. Women generally push for commitment a little more then men beceuse men can have children anytime while women know theirs a biological clock ticking!

One thing that I'm certain of is that overall women push for some form of commitment (anything proving the relationship is going forward rather then staying still) in relationship more then men do

StormWarrior · 18-06-2010 4:32pm

Maybe in Ireland, but certainly not everywhere. Also, as to the biological clock, not all women want kids believe it or not.

Quackles · 18-06-2010 4:35pm

I got married at 24 and I would do it again in a heartbeat. I guess it's because to me, marriage is for life, I'm not looking towards the day when it all comes crashing down. I know my husband better than that, and I don't think there's much point in getting married if you're planning your way out from the get go. If that sounds naive, then so be it, but I'm happy in my bubble

Greyfox · 18-06-2010 4:45pm

StormWarrior wrote: »

Well like I said I've lived in 4 different EU countries and never seen anything like what you are describing, the total opposite in fact. So I think you are also viewing things from your subjective experience.

I'm stunned to think you could think it's the opposite although I'll admit I'm only talking about Irish women. If you google the commitment subject you'll find theirs loads of articles about men wanting to keep things how they are and women pushing for more, theirs almost nothing showing things been the other way around

StormWarrior · 18-06-2010 5:03pm

There could be any number of reasons for that, it's become an accepted myth in popular culture (I would say mainly because of Hollywood films) that it's women who are obsessed with commitment. However I know multiple men who, by their late twenties had become overwhelmingly keen to get married and settle down, and thinking back through everyone my age I've known, I can think of only one woman who felt the same. I'm not saying all men want this commitment, certainly not, but in most of northern Europe at least the men are far more keen. Not just northern Europe though, I have for example a male Mexican friend whose aim in life is to get married and have kids, even though he hasn't got a girlfriend (though he's a fairly good catch for anyone who actually wants marriage and kids). He used to aim to be married by 28 and have his first kid no later than age 32, but now he's 28 and still hasn't found a wife, he is getting quite worried. That's just one example though, the majority of couples I know, especially in the UK, the man is keen on marriage and the woman is saying, let's just wait and see. I'm actually really surprised it's the other way around in Ireland as I just haven't seen that in real life.

Wibbs · 18-06-2010 5:04pm

StormWarrior wrote: »

Well like I said I've lived in 4 different EU countries and never seen anything like what you are describing, the total opposite in fact. So I think you are also viewing things from your subjective experience.

I would agree that Ireland seems to follow the more American hype about weddings and the like. I've noted like yourself with other European cultures that this stuff is less overt. Including the more catholic ones which you might expect are more like us. Its still there though.

But IMHO my argument that women are more concerned about relationships and their social status among their peers is more tied up in relationships is pretty easy to see. Any objective viewing of western culture and its media will show that pretty easily. Read any mainstream periodical, website, TV programme or film aimed at women and discussions and/or representations of relationships, romantic, social and familial feature very strongly. In many cases there's little else. The cliched and very popular "chick" lit/flick in the vast majority of cases focuses on such subject matter. Very popular "dick":D lit/flicks rarely do.

This is not to say that women only discuss this stuff, nor it is to say that such discussion is trivial either. Though I would say that a lot of women themselves get a little tired of the frequency of it from other women. I've seen this as one of the mods of The Ladies Lounge on this very site. Really good and interesting threads get started, but all too often the threads that get started are relationship threads. I know that puts off many women from posting. Luckily that has changed though.

Do you deny that the media output when it comes to women audiences and content providers doesn't heavily weight towards such subject matter? Seriously? Walk into any book shop and read the most popular books and magazines. Walk into any cinema/DVD store and get back to me on that one. Do you deny that women are more concerned and talk about relationships more than men as a general rule?

Believe it or not, not all men are lily-livered spineless creatures who do whatever their girlfriend says or else.

Oh certainly not all, but a surprising amount are and do. For all sorts of reasons.

If a man will allow himself to be pushed against his will into something as drastic as marriage, then he can reap what he sows.

I agree.

However, I don't actually believe all this stuff about men just going along with it to shut the woman up,

Again I've seen enough who do just that. For "the quiet life"(tm). An all too common thing.

or keep someone who's out of their league.

Common enough too.

The majority of men who get married do so because they actually want to.

Yes, but there are quite a number who want to and get married for the wrong as well as the right reasons. It's "the thing to do" at their age, the feeling that the woman may leg it if they don't, fear of not replacing her if she does, being with her for so long that the notion of her not being around is hard to take, even if its not particularly healthy. Women can do this too BTW. Its not a female/male thing.

Maybe in Ireland, but certainly not everywhere.

Its the case to one degree or other all over the world.

Also, as to the biological clock, not all women want kids believe it or not.

Not an argument as the majority of women(and men) do want children. The world increases its population by one million per week. There's a reason for that. Using that as a debating point is arguing from outliers. I've noted women who dont want kids break down into a few camps. The majority being younger women who cant imagine ever wanting them, who then change their mind 180 degrees at say 29, or when they meet someone they want to have kids with(lots of men would be similar). Women who may have had some interest early on, but as they get older and it never happened it doesnt really bother them. Women who just dont have nor ever had that need. Like I contend they're outliers so dont really figure as much in the debate.

StormWarrior · 18-06-2010 5:15pm

But IMHO my argument that women are more concerned about relationships and their social status among their peers is more tied up in relationships is pretty easy to see. Any objective viewing of western culture and its media will show that pretty easily. Read any mainstream periodical, website, TV programme or film aimed at women and discussions and/or representations of relationships, romantic, social and familial feature very strongly. In many cases there's little else. The cliched and very popular "chick" lit/flick in the vast majority of cases focuses on such subject matter. Very popular "dick":D lit/flicks rarely do.
Do you deny that the media output when it comes to women audiences and content providers doesn't heavily weight towards such subject matter? Seriously? Walk into any book shop and read the most popular books and magazines. Walk into any cinema/DVD store and get back to me on that one. Do you deny that women are more concerned and talk about relationships more than men as a general rule?
Just because the media put alot of this stuff out for women doesn't mean that most women are into this. The TV, magazines etc that you say are aimed at women, I would say are aimed at a certain type of woman rather than women in general. I don't know anyone who's into chick flicks or chick lit. Just the same as things that are aimed at men aren't aimed at all men. I mean, just because some men like Top Gear, doesn't mean that the majority of men are really into cars.

Its the case to one degree or other all over the world. Not an argument as the majority of women(and men) do want children. The world increases its population by one million per week. There's a reason for that. Using that as a debating point is arguing from outliers. I've noted women who dont want kids break down into a few camps. The majority being younger women who cant imagine ever wanting them, who then change their mind 180 degrees at say 29, or when they meet someone they want to have kids with(lots of men would be similar). Women who may have had some interest early on, but as they get older and it never happened it doesnt really bother them. Women who just dont have nor ever had that need. Like I contend they're outliers so dont really figure as much in the debate.

The increase in population probably has more to do with the fact that some couples, especially in the less developed countries are producing 5 - 12 kids each. And then only due to religion/lack of contraception/the women not being able to get jobs/generally not having a choice or not even thinking to question it. In the western world more and more women every year are choosing not to have kids.

Maybe you just need to find some different types of women to meet/associate with.

SeanKev · 18-06-2010 5:21pm

Giselle wrote: »

If you're thick enough to marry some money obsessed, selfish, lazy, greedy, out for themselves golddigger (female or male) then you probably will pay for it in a million ways before you have to sort out a divorce settlement.

Luckily most people are a bit more discerning.

Have to agree, In a few years I might have to make that decision (marriage) hopefully with my current girlfriend.

I love her and she loves me and I know for a fact that she'd have a little bit of respect, that if we were to finish. She wouldn't be a spiteful bitch and financially rape me.

If children are in the picture, she deserves money because she would be my child/children's mother, less likely to be working and she would be the woman that I love, and respect.

Wibbs · 18-06-2010 5:22pm

StormWarrior wrote: »

There could be any number of reasons for that, it's become an accepted myth in popular culture (I would say mainly because of Hollywood films) that it's women who are obsessed with commitment.

It's a myth that many buy into. The money goes where the myths are. Yes it influences it, but the need is there.

I'm actually really surprised it's the other way around in Ireland as I just haven't seen that in real life.

Now this is my humble, but I would say Ireland though on the surface has been quite the misogynist country(sometimes very) it's run at grass roots level by women as much as if not more so than men. Not unlike the US. Defo the case somewhere like Italy. Now this is a very small sample of course, but comparing Irish ex girlfriends with non Irish, I didn't notice the usual AH "foridn birds are all gorgeous" guff, but I did notice that Irish women were more likely to have set ideas about how relationships would go. Like I say though thats a small sample.

Wibbs · 18-06-2010 5:53pm

StormWarrior wrote: »

Just because the media put alot of this stuff out for women doesn't mean that most women are into this. The TV, magazines etc that you say are aimed at women, I would say are aimed at a certain type of woman rather than women in general.

They're aimed by advertisers at as many of their target audience as possible. The biggest "average" and slice of the pie they can find. If they didnt appeal to or reflect that target audience they would lose money and die.

I don't know anyone who's into chick flicks or chick lit.

Again you're arguing from subjectivity. I dont know many women who are into that stuff either, but I acknowledge that many many women are by their continued popularity.

Just the same as things that are aimed at men aren't aimed at all men. I mean, just because some men like Top Gear, doesn't mean that the majority of men are really into cars.

A lot of men like cars and a lot of men like top gear. Its the biggest TV export the BBC produces and its audience is majority male. Car shows for women are thin on the ground. This does not suggest all men like cars, nor that all men dont, but it does suggest many many more men do.

The increase in population probably has more to do with the fact that some couples, especially in the less developed countries are producing 5 - 12 kids each. And then only due to religion/lack of contraception/the women not being able to get jobs/generally not having a choice or not even thinking to question it. In the western world more and more women every year are choosing not to have kids.

Or waiting until its too late. In any case our intrinsic biological purpose is to grow up, make little copies of our DNA, raise them to do the same and die. We subvert many impulses like this and that is growing, but its a biggy and the vast majority of men and women in the world expect at some stage to settle down and have kids.

Maybe you just need to find some different types of women to meet/associate with.

I know and have known a lot of women in my time, both as mates and lovers. People do vary quite a bit but IME a large majority veer around the centre. Just like men.

Mike 1972 · 19-06-2010 3:53pm

Quackles wrote: »

I got married at 24 and I would do it again in a heartbeat. I guess it's because to me, marriage is for life,

Contradict yourself much ?

Prof.Badass · 19-06-2010 3:59pm

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Contradict yourself much ?

I think she meant if she could go back in time and make the decision again she would still do it, and not that she wishes to get married a second time.

bnt · 19-06-2010 5:31pm

Personally, I think marriage or not isn't really the problem - considering how common divorce is. If you look back in history, you start seeing why we have a formal institution of marriage. How many times, in real life and in stories, do we see how a marriage is more important to the Parents than to the bride and groom? They could happily run off to the Gretna Green Registry Office, but the Parents want that big ceremony and party. Look at what happens in e.g. Pakistan (arranged marriages), and the picture becomes clearer. It's a good way to seal a peace treaty between two warring tribes: how can we fight if our kids are married?

These days, it seems to me that there are clear advantages to marriage where there are children involved. In addition to the legal and social aspects, marriage sends a clear message, to all involved, that you're trying to make a long-term commitment to the raising of the children. That's the idea, though I know it's not that simple ...

I don't have kids, and don't want any, but that doesn't mean I'm against the idea of romance, relationships and marriage. If I was worried about any financial implications, I'd draw up a pre-nuptial agreement. However, my wish to not have children, compounded by a lack of looks and money, means that a romance, relationship or marriage is highly unlikely. :rolleyes:

Elliemental · 19-06-2010 6:14pm

SugarHigh wrote: »

I'm not afraid of commitment or against long term relationships but I just don't see why someone would get married outside of religious reasons.

It just seems like you are setting yourself up for hassle if you the relationship goes sour while not really adding anything to the relationship if it works out.

Then there is damage to your bank balance if it goes tits up.
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/2460/1276778988090.jpg

The very idea of marraige brings me out in a cold sweat, tbh. These days it seems that it is nothing more than a vanity project and an excuse to make people buy you lots of presents.

Does anyone else think getting married is just a very bad idea.

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