Everything HPAT and Medicine 2012

Taco Chips · 05-08-2012 6:48pm

nogivingup wrote: »

Oh because you are so knowledgable because you have friends in Medicine? How would you know if there was mention of LC points or not? Were you there? No. Was I there? Yes.
When I said ridiculed, I meant in a far more good-natured way than all of you are all taking it to mean.

.....

Also, in relation to Honours Maths, it doesn't consume that much more time than other subjects. It does not deserve an extra 25 points. Also, I think it's a shame that people with 575+Honours Maths will be claiming to have 600 points, when others with 6 A1s in Options an Languages had to work far harder to receive the same score.

I'm giving an anecdote that contradicts your story. No need to get so touchy and defensive. I don't see why you would want to be in this context anyway.

I suppose the people I know doing med have a bit more cop on than you, since they have better things to do than make jokes about the LC, which is irrelevant in college anyway. Perhaps this is why you don't know them?

nogivingup · 05-08-2012 7:59pm

Taco Chips wrote: »

I'm giving an anecdote that contradicts your story. No need to get so touchy and defensive. I don't see why you would want to be in this context anyway.

I suppose the people I know doing med have a bit more cop on than you, since they have better things to do than make jokes about the LC, which is irrelevant in college anyway. Perhaps this is why you don't know them?

I think you'll find that I do know them- me being one of the Meds that you have met!

Guys, you're all too highly strung, chill out a bit!
I still maintain that under 550 is a bit of a joke. Like, we have to maintain some standards, right?

MedGirl17 · 05-08-2012 8:05pm

nogivingup wrote: »

Oh because you are so knowledgable because you have friends in Medicine? How would you know if there was mention of LC points or not? Were you there? No. Was I there? Yes.
When I said ridiculed, I meant in a far more good-natured way than all of you are all taking it to mean.

Also, Darksider, you are naive if you are shocked by such elitism.

Also, the later post about people with 400 points studying Medicine abroad: how many of these people do you know personally? I doubt you know any, not many exist. You seem to be ignoring the fact that for each of these students, there are hundreds with 580+ points that study in Irish Universities and get excellent degrees.

Also, in relation to Honours Maths, it doesn't consume that much more time than other subjects. It does not deserve an extra 25 points. Also, I think it's a shame that people with 575+Honours Maths will be claiming to have 600 points, when others with 6 A1s in Options an Languages had to work far harder to receive the same score.

Just about the honours maths comment-I would have been a fairly average student when it came to maths, B's on a very good day but C's normally. I decided to sit Honours for the Leaving because I knew I wouldn't fail and, let's be honest, the more Honours subjects you manage to do the better. I found it did take up a lot more time than my other Honours subjects. If it wasn't for the 25 extra points, I probably just would have dropped to Ordinary level simply to lighten the work load. I think in a case like mine, the 25 extra points is a good idea as it does encourage you to work at maths, especially if your level of maths isn't great. I probably won't even get them as my maths grade won't be one of my top six, but it's still nice to know that if one of my subjects goes really wrong, all that work won't be wasted !

dcam · 05-08-2012 11:00pm

[/QUOTE]

Patchy~ wrote: »

Well I dunno, if someone can get 6 A1s should they not be able for HL maths? Personally I'm hoping for a C3/D1 in it to offset geography which went badly, but overall I'll probably only end up with a 5-10 net gain in points from it.

On one hand the reality is that maths takes up a lot more time and was my most difficult subject by a million miles, but if you're extremely maths-orientated you won't even need the incentive I guess.

My opinion is that subjects like maths/French should be worth more for courses like engineering/languages, thats how the French system works, and it makes so much more sense - but I guess it has its flaws too, e.g. someone who doesnt get to do applied maths being at a huge disadvantage in competing for their course even if they were able for it.

I don't think it's really a case of being able for it or not though. I think it's forcing a lot of students going for high points courses such as dentistry, veterinary medicine etc. into doing HL so that they're in with a decent shot of getting their course. In my opinion that's wrong if their course has very little maths in it. Also a lot of you are saying that HL maths takes up more time than your other subjects and that it's a lot more difficult but there are also those who find other subjects such as languages very difficult eg. a few people who were in school with me who had dyslexia said that French was by far the most difficult subject for them and that it took up a lot more time than their other subjects, however they won't receive extra points for French. I think a system such as Patchy suggested where extra points are only given if they are relevant to your third level course is the fairest for everyone.

Canard · 05-08-2012 11:12pm

dcam wrote:

I don't think it's really a case of being able for it or not though. I think it's forcing a lot of students going for high points courses such as dentistry, veterinary medicine etc. into doing HL so that they're in with a decent shot of getting their course. In my opinion that's wrong if their course has very little maths in it. Also a lot of you are saying that HL maths takes up more time than your other subjects and that it's a lot more difficult but there are also those who find other subjects such as languages very difficult eg. a few people who were in school with me who had dyslexia said that French was by far the most difficult subject for them and that it took up a lot more time than their other subjects, however they won't receive extra points for French. I think a system such as Patchy suggested where extra points are only given if they are relevant to your third level course is the fairest for everyone.

Thats true, but those courses already have a huge point requirement. The only alternative though would be to put some kind of cap on that since a B3 = 100 points, anything above that is also only 100 points, which is still unfair.

I know its not only dyslexic people who have trouble with French, but I'd estimate that a lot more people without dyscalculia have trouble with maths and/or just don't see the point in doing HL because it doesnt come naturally to them. Compared to French (or any subject at all) there was a tiny amount doing HL maths. Also, in the same way that you mentioned it's unfair that people have to have HL maths for Dentistry and other mathsless courses, almost everyone needs to pass English, Irish, Maths and a third language, so it's not a huge extra disadvantage anyway. Annoying, but I wouldn't say it's the end of the world, 580+ is a challenge anyway.

dcam · 05-08-2012 11:24pm

I agree with a lot of what you're saying in my opinion though it isn't inevitable for dentistry to reach 605+ points in the very near future due to the bonus maths points which is a bit absurd as it would make HL maths pretty much an entry requirement for dentistry although not an official one I know.

JDOC1996 · 05-08-2012 11:43pm

Hey everyone,
I'm going into 5th year, and I badly want medicine. I'm just wondering, what are some good materials I can buy to study for the Hpat? I'm going to treat it like an 8th subject. I've also heard that a Hpat is being brought in for dentistry and veterinary, is this true?

dcam · 06-08-2012 12:02am

JDOC1996 wrote: »

Hey everyone,
I'm going into 5th year, and I badly want medicine. I'm just wondering, what are some good materials I can buy to study for the Hpat? I'm going to treat it like an 8th subject. I've also heard that a Hpat is being brought in for dentistry and veterinary, is this true?

If you're going into 5th year you still have loads of time to study for the HPAT so don't stress out too much. There are talks of abolishing the HPAT so I wouldn't be in any rush to buy study aids until it's certain that the HPAT will still exist in 2014. However if it is still around by then I would suggest buying the two sample ACER papers as they give you a good idea of the layout, style of question etc. I also did the meden**y package which I found very useful for section three, but to be honest I didn't feel it made that much of a difference to section one and section two on the day maybe that's just me though. Sixth year is loads of time to start a prep course though. Confidence in your own ability and a calm level head on the day of the HPAT play a huge role on the day too, easier said than done I know. As for dentistry and veterinary I've heard rumours about the HPAT being brought in for other science courses as far as I know though no such action has been taken yet.

Darksider · 06-08-2012 12:36am

JDOC1996 wrote: »

Hey everyone,
I'm going into 5th year, and I badly want medicine. I'm just wondering, what are some good materials I can buy to study for the Hpat? I'm going to treat it like an 8th subject. I've also heard that a Hpat is being brought in for dentistry and veterinary, is this true?

Here's some tips I gathered from practising for the hpat this year, hope they help :P

Section 1: Never ever base an answer off assumptions. Before you answer a section 1 question, quickly ask yourself 'is this answer beyond the scope of the passage?'. If it is then that's probably the wrong answer.

Section 2: This section is pretty difficult to improve on. All I can advise is that whilst you're practising, make a note of any emotional adjectives you don't understand and learn their meanings. Eg. many people might not know the meaning of words like convivial, derisive, disparaging etc but these can come up in section 2.

Section 3: Work your ass off at this one. If you put the time in you'll be able to get an outstanding result in it. At the beginning it can seem hopeless and you might think 'this just makes no sense to me' but eventually you begin seeing the patterns and they are repeated constantly.

General tips: Just try not to burn yourself out on it. 5th year is actually quite an early time to start so don't work at it so hard that you begin resenting the test. You need to have a very positive attitude whenever you practise for it and even more-so when you actually sit it.

I did med entry too, I didn't actually find the sit in course all that helpful but the online materials are a godsend.

JDOC1996 · 06-08-2012 1:24am

Thanks guys. Yeah, I was looking through some UMAT questions, sections 1 and 2 are alright, but I thought section 3 just looked almost un-doable haha. Also, how much study were you medheads doing in 5th year? Ye seem like the ones to ask :P

MtHanrahan · 06-08-2012 8:38am

JDOC1996 wrote: »

Thanks guys. Yeah, I was looking through some UMAT questions, sections 1 and 2 are alright, but I thought section 3 just looked almost un-doable haha. Also, how much study were you medheads doing in 5th year? Ye seem like the ones to ask :P

I posted some section 3 advice at www.mthanrahan.blogspot.com for a reader in a similar situation as you.

Regarding comments about bonus points for H maths that extra points should reward the extra work, this is not true. The extra points get students to stay in Higher level. The highest achievers don't put in extra work into maths compared to other subjects. If you like and are good at maths then it requires very little work. Extra points for talent = a bias in the system. Anyway people should realize that the extra points were not introduced with medicine in mind.

nogivingup · 06-08-2012 1:41pm

MtHanrahan wrote: »

JDOC1996 wrote: »

Thanks guys. Yeah, I was looking through some UMAT questions, sections 1 and 2 are alright, but I thought section 3 just looked almost un-doable haha. Also, how much study were you medheads doing in 5th year? Ye seem like the ones to ask :P

I posted some section 3 advice at www.mthanrahan.blogspot.com for a reader in a similar situation as you.

Regarding comments about bonus points for H maths that extra points should reward the extra work, this is not true. The extra points get students to stay in Higher level. The highest achievers don't put in extra work into maths compared to other subjects. If you like and are good at maths then it requires very little work. Extra points for talent = a bias in the system. Anyway people should realize that the extra points were not introduced with medicine in mind.

Very well said! This is only going to reward the top performers further- they will get both the A1 in Maths and the extra points- and punish the average students, as they are unlikely to receive the full 25 points, leaving those better at Maths will a massive lead.

greatshakes · 06-08-2012 8:31pm

To suggest somebody with less than 550 points will struggle in medicine is pure rubbish. What about the graduate entry route in medicine. Half the medical places in the state will be graduate entry soon. I know two people going down this route after getting far less then 550 points in their leaving cert and both are extremely bright. There is no doubt in my mind they will qualify in four years time on the accelerated degree as top quality doctors. What about the people who have gone to the UK and Eastern Europe for years with far less than 550 and have qualified as doctors!

marienhof · 06-08-2012 9:24pm

Anyone stressing out about results next wednesday ? cant believe its all gonna be over :O :O

dcam · 06-08-2012 11:03pm

marienhof wrote: »

Anyone stressing out about results next wednesday ? cant believe its all gonna be over :O :O

I can't stop thinking about it! It's literally on my mind 24/7. Still it will be good to know either way.

CookieMonster.x · 07-08-2012 6:17pm

Hi everyone,
I am hoping to get into medicine (2013 entry) and was just looking for a few tips.
I know the Irish system pretty well. With regards to the HPAT, I am going to get the M*d*ntry course. How often and for how long should I practice? Any hints/tricks anyone has come across that come in handy?
Now I don't really know the UK system well at all. Initially I was just going to apply to Queen's in Belfast as ultimately I would rather be in Ireland however I have heard that Irish students get free fees in Scotland so I am looking into that now as well as England. I have signed up to sit the UKCAT in October. Does anyone know how similar it is to the HPAT? Would I be ok by just preparing with M*d*ntry or would I need to use other resources? Also what is a good score on the UKCAT? What, roughly, would one need to get to have a chance of getting an interview?
I have ordered several prospectuses so I will be going through them (I know it's a bit late however I am already pretty sure of the colleges I will be applying to).
If anyone could enlighten me that would be great. Any past experiences/hints/extra information would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you!

Darksider · 07-08-2012 6:27pm

CookieMonster.x wrote: »

Hi everyone,
I am hoping to get into medicine (2013 entry) and was just looking for a few tips.
I know the Irish system pretty well. With regards to the HPAT, I am going to get the M*d*ntry course. How often and for how long should I practice? Any hints/tricks anyone has come across that come in handy?
Now I don't really know the UK system well at all. Initially I was just going to apply to Queen's in Belfast as ultimately I would rather be in Ireland however I have heard that Irish students get free fees in Scotland so I am looking into that now as well as England. I have signed up to sit the UKCAT in October. Does anyone know how similar it is to the HPAT? Would I be ok by just preparing with M*d*ntry or would I need to use other resources? Also what is a good score on the UKCAT? What, roughly, would one need to get to have a chance of getting an interview?
I have ordered several prospectuses so I will be going through them (I know it's a bit late however I am already pretty sure of the colleges I will be applying to).
If anyone could enlighten me that would be great. Any past experiences/hints/extra information would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you!

You'll want to do some work experience in a medicine related field for inclusion in the personal statement, eg. volunteer in a nursing home. Get working on that ASAP since the medicine application deadline is around mid-October if I'm not mistaken.

For UKCAT scores I think you need something like high 700s or better in all sections. Get practising on that now as well because you'll need that done before the deadline also.

I don't think hpat practise materials would be ideal for ukcat. They're both aptitude tests and some of the subject matter is similar but they differ a lot and you'd be better using materials that are targeted specifically for the ukcat.

marienhof · 07-08-2012 7:08pm

dcam wrote: »

I can't stop thinking about it! It's literally on my mind 24/7. Still it will be good to know either way.

Yeah thats true just hoping for the best at this stage

were u planning on going?:D

hollingr · 07-08-2012 7:48pm

fewtinsoffroth wrote: »

Independant Academy, I don't know why really. I'd heard so many complaints about the madentry from people who had paid such an insane amount of money and scored like 80, but considering the amount of people who probably sit that one you'll get people who are going to score poorly regardless.

I think getting the results early will be encouraging to study for the last 5 weeks regardless if the score is good or bad :pac:

I think with med entree you get out of it what you put in. A lot of people just assume because they've forked out a couple hundred euros and done a few prep exams that they're suddenly going to get 200+, since everyone says it's the best and you improve so much with it. You don't get anything out of it without some hard graft.

The other thing with it is it's up to you to time keep, and if you aren't strict on yourself you will get inflated grades and won't have your rhythm right for the actual exam.

I don't think practise for section 2 does much of anything, but Section 1 and 3 has techniques and "problem types" that you can prepare for.

You should put far more effort into analysing the questions you got wrong, and how you could do them faster/better in the future, than on just skimming through the tests and fretting/gloating over your percentile scores.

Darksider · 07-08-2012 8:02pm

hollingr wrote: »

I think with med entree you get out of it what you put in. A lot of people just assume because they've forked out a couple hundred euros and done a few prep exams that they're suddenly going to get 200+, since everyone says it's the best and you improve so much with it. You don't get anything out of it without some hard graft.

The other thing with it is it's up to you to time keep, and if you aren't strict on yourself you will get inflated grades and won't have your rhythm right for the actual exam.

I don't think practise for section 2 does much of anything, but Section 1 and 3 has techniques and "problem types" that you can prepare for.

You should put far more effort into analysing the questions you got wrong, and how you could do them faster/better in the future, than on just skimming through the tests and fretting/gloating over your percentile scores.

One thing for anyone who does the course - don't be disheartened by any percentiles online or estimated results from the sit in course. I was very let down when I got an email from them a few weeks after the course saying 'actual test percentile: x, estimated hpat percentile: y' because the result wasn't great but I ended up doing better than what they estimated. If a dunce like me can do it, so can you!

tweetybird4848 · 07-08-2012 9:56pm

Darksider wrote: »

nogivingup wrote: »

Oh because you are so knowledgable because you have friends in Medicine? How would you know if there was mention of LC points or not? Were you there? No. Was I there? Yes.
When I said ridiculed, I meant in a far more good-natured way than all of you are all taking it to mean.

Also, Darksider, you are naive if you are shocked by such elitism.

Also, the later post about people with 400 points studying Medicine abroad: how many of these people do you know personally? I doubt you know any, not many exist. You seem to be ignoring the fact that for each of these students, there are hundreds with 580+ points that study in Irish Universities and get excellent degrees.

Also, in relation to Honours Maths, it doesn't consume that much more time than other subjects. It does not deserve an extra 25 points. Also, I think it's a shame that people with 575+Honours Maths will be claiming to have 600 points, when others with 6 A1s in Options an Languages had to work far harder to receive the same score.

Yes I know of 2 people in final year abroad, one in sudan, the other in romania. Both were in the 400s. I also know a guy who went to india to do dentistry who was also in the 400s. He graduated and is currently working on the exams needed to work over here.

Anyways, as long as I get admission I couldn't care less for futile internet arguments. I only need 505 points anyways :L

Darksider as a matter of interest what combined hpat and points are you aiming for? Also nogiving up, I found your remarks petty and ridculious. The leaving cert is more a measure of memory then anything else and it is simply untrue to say that anyone with points lower then 550 would be unable for medicine.

Mad Shark · 07-08-2012 10:30pm

tweetybird4848 wrote: »

Darksider as a matter of interest what combined hpat and points are you aiming for? Also nogiving up, I found your remarks petty and ridculious. The leaving cert is more a measure of memory then anything else and it is simply untrue to say that anyone with points lower then 550 would be unable for medicine.

Well said

dcam · 07-08-2012 10:38pm

marienhof wrote: »

Yeah thats true just hoping for the best at this stage were u planning on going?:D

I'll take med anywhere I can get it have all 5 down on the CAO. What about you?

nogivingup · 07-08-2012 11:47pm

tweetybird4848 wrote: »

Darksider as a matter of interest what combined hpat and points are you aiming for? Also nogiving up, I found your remarks petty and ridculious. The leaving cert is more a measure of memory then anything else and it is simply untrue to say that anyone with points lower then 550 would be unable for medicine.

Guys, you'd swear I suggested that no-one without 600 points got in. 550 isn't a great Leaving Cert, it's not that hard to achieve. I don't see what excuse anyone who thinks they're capable of Medicine has to not get 550. Illness during the year- sure. But simply not doing enough work? If they can't do enough work to get 550 they won't do enough work to be good doctors. A good Leaving Cert requires far more than a good memory- one must be intelligent, determined and diligent, all characteristics required of Med students, surely?

QueenOfLeon · 08-08-2012 12:23am

nogivingup wrote: »

Guys, you'd swear I suggested that no-one without 600 points got in. 550 isn't a great Leaving Cert, it's not that hard to achieve. I don't see what excuse anyone who thinks they're capable of Medicine has to not get 550. Illness during the year- sure. But simply not doing enough work? If they can't do enough work to get 550 they won't do enough work to be good doctors. A good Leaving Cert requires far more than a good memory- one must be intelligent, determined and diligent, all characteristics required of Med students, surely?

I'm sorry but almost every statement you've made here is ridiculous imo...

nogivingup · 08-08-2012 12:25am

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

I'm sorry but almost every statement you've made here is ridiculous imo...

Tell me, what's ridiculous about the last comment, oh wise one?

Canard · 08-08-2012 12:41am

The thing jumping out at me personally is that the people who set the requirements for Medicine felt that 480 was fine, yet you're out bashing people who got 70 points over it as being average...

QueenOfLeon · 08-08-2012 12:42am

nogivingup wrote: »

Tell me, what's ridiculous about the last comment, oh wise one?

Ok...

nogivingup wrote: »

550 isn't a great Leaving Cert, it's not that hard to achieve.

Its basically straight A's, in a wide range of subjects. Only a low percentage of people in the country achieve this or above. It is obviously hard to achieve, or else everyone would be getting it.

nogivingup wrote: »

I don't see what excuse anyone who thinks they're capable of Medicine has to not get 550.

Plenty of things. You could be excellent at everything medical related, but up to half of your LC subjects are languages. You don't need to be fluent in French to be a doctor, but not being good at languages will set you back in getting >550, as 3 are compulsory for almost all colleges.

It also might be easier to achieve >550 if you have plenty of money for grinds, books etc. Someone brought up the point a while ago (in the HEAR thread, I think) that people from disadvantaged areas might have less time to study due to having to get a part time job, helping more around the house, than people from more well off backgrounds who may not have to worry about that sort of thing.

nogivingup wrote: »

If they can't do enough work to get 550 they won't do enough work to be good doctors.

People are generally much more motivated to work at subjects they enjoy, like those they would encounter in medicine. Just because someone doesn't do well in some Leaving Cert subjects doesn't mean they aren't capable of working at something else.

On a more personal note, I could point out people in my class who got below 550 in the LC and who have not done badly in exam since. Then there are others who got up to 600 who are repeating exams in August with some having to repeat the year.

nogivingup wrote: »

A good Leaving Cert requires far more than a good memory- one must be intelligent, determined and diligent, all characteristics required of Med students, surely?

Yes, but on a much higher scale for medicine. Everyone has to up their game, whether you got 500 or 600, and everyone getting results like that in the LC is capable of doing the work for medicine. Your LC results are not relevant, its the work you put in in the course that matters.

KoolAidRelic · 08-08-2012 12:55am

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

Plenty of things. You could be excellent at everything medical related, but up to half of your LC subjects are languages. You don't need to be fluent in French to be a doctor, but not being good at languages will set you back in getting >550, as 3 are compulsory for almost all colleges.

Seeing as you only need a HC3 in the languages, it's kind of irrelevant. A student who's weak at languages and chooses to count half of them for their points deserves the consequences.

QueenOfLeon · 08-08-2012 12:59am

KoolAidRelic wrote: »

Seeing as you only need a HC3 in the languages, it's kind of irrelevant. A student who's weak at languages and chooses to count half of them for their points deserves the consequences.

If you don't want to count any of them, you'd then have to do 9 honour subjects in total, which would be a bit excessive.

nogivingup · 08-08-2012 1:12am

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

Ok...

Its basically straight A's, in a wide range of subjects. Only a low percentage of people in the country achieve this or above. It is obviously hard to achieve, or else everyone would be getting it.

Plenty of things. You could be excellent at everything medical related, but up to half of your LC subjects are languages. You don't need to be fluent in French to be a doctor, but not being good at languages will set you back in getting >550, as 3 are compulsory for almost all colleges.

It also might be easier to achieve >550 if you have plenty of money for grinds, books etc. Someone brought up the point a while ago (in the HEAR thread, I think) that people from disadvantaged areas might have less time to study due to having to get a part time job, helping more around the house, than people from more well off backgrounds who may not have to worry about that sort of thing.

People are generally much more motivated to work at subjects they enjoy, like those they would encounter in medicine. Just because someone doesn't do well in some Leaving Cert subjects doesn't mean they aren't capable of working at something else.

On a more personal note, I could point out people in my class who got below 550 in the LC and who have not done badly in exam since. Then there are others who got up to 600 who are repeating exams in August with some having to repeat the year.

Yes, but on a much higher scale for medicine. Everyone has to up their game, whether you got 500 or 600, and everyone getting results like that in the LC is capable of doing the work for medicine. Your LC results are not relevant, its the work you put in in the course that matters.

Realistically, not everyone in the country is attempting to get Medicine/ other high-point courses, therefore not everyone is going to be working hard enough to get Medicine-worthy points.
Personally, I see no issue with the previous system, it was far fairer to simply to be based upon one standardised exam- the Leaving Cert. But now that we have the HPAT, I think that they should retain standards.
I think that 550 is quite a reasonable score, all you need is one A1 and 5 A2s, which is not a huge demand. 500 can be achieved with no As- hardly demanding at all. That can be achieved with little work.
With regard to motivation in subjects they don't like- it is not as if they're going to love every aspect of Medicine, they're still going to have to study subjects that they don't really like. Your suggestion that this is a reasonable excuse not to work is just ridiculous.

QueenOfLeon · 08-08-2012 1:17am

nogivingup wrote: »

With regard to motivation in subjects they don't like- it is not as if they're going to love every aspect of Medicine, they're still going to have to study subjects that they don't really like. Your suggestion that this is a reasonable excuse not to work is just ridiculous.

I didn't say not liking a subject is an "excuse" not to work. Some people don't have an aptitude for languages, and even getting a good result like a B will let them down a bit. It doesn't mean they're not capable of doing well at subjects in medicine, which is what you're suggesting.

nogivingup · 08-08-2012 1:23am

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

Ok...
People are generally much more motivated to work at subjects they enjoy, like those they would encounter in medicine. Just because someone doesn't do well in some Leaving Cert subjects doesn't mean they aren't capable of working at something else.

See, from what I can gather, what you're saying is that people aren't as motivated to work for the Leaving Cert because they don't like the subject matter and will be motivated in Medicine because they will like the subject matter?
So you are saying that they'll work harder and do better if they like the subject matter, whereas they will not work as hard and not do as well if they do not like the subject matter.
Justifying not working.

KoolAidRelic · 08-08-2012 1:23am

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

If you don't want to count any of them, you'd then have to do 9 honour subjects in total, which would be a bit excessive.

So then count just one, and do 8. A very common number, especially if you include dropping to pass Irish.

nogivingup · 08-08-2012 1:26am

KoolAidRelic wrote: »

So then count just one, and do 8. A very common number, especially if you include dropping to pass Irish.

Ya, and surely even one lacking a natural ability in languages can manage an A2, which is all they would need to get 550.

QueenOfLeon · 08-08-2012 1:29am

nogivingup wrote: »

See, from what I can gather, what you're saying is that people aren't as motivated to work for the Leaving Cert because they don't like the subject matter and will be motivated in Medicine because they will like the subject matter?
So you are saying that they'll work harder and do better if they like the subject matter, whereas they will not work as hard and not do as well if they do not like the subject matter.
Justifying not working.

Maybe you should read that statement in the context it was posted - in response to this statement by you:

nogivingup wrote: »

If they can't do enough work to get 550 they won't do enough work to be good doctors

You're saying if someone can't work enough to get 550, they can't work enough to be doctors.

I'm saying that even if someone can't or doesn't work enough to get 550, they can still work enough to be doctors.

No need to complicate it any further than that. I'm not going to argue the reasons as to why people might not get 550 in the Leaving Cert, I'm saying you can't suggest that anyone not getting 550 can't do well in medicine.

_LilyRose_ · 08-08-2012 1:37am

Sorry that this is a bit irrelevant to the current conversation! Is it true that when adding up HPAT and LC, even if you get over 560 your points are stopped(for want of a better word) and each 5 points extra you got count as 1 point. This is then added in with your HPAT score? So if you got 600 points plus a HPAT score of 180, you get 568+180=748 points?

Is this not a complete slap in the face to anyone who manages to get such extraordinarily high points??

dcam · 08-08-2012 1:38am

KoolAidRelic wrote: »

Seeing as you only need a HC3 in the languages, it's kind of irrelevant.

Would just like to point out that you don't need a HC3 in the languages you can do English, Irish and your third language all at ordinary level if you wish and I'm pretty sure you only need a D3 in the three of them. QueenOfLeon is correct nine LC subjects is still a major undertaking even if three of them are at ordinary level and if the student is weak at languages it will set them back even more.

nogivingup · 08-08-2012 1:40am

dcam wrote: »

Would just like to point out that you don't need a HC3 in the languages you can do English, Irish and your third language all at ordinary level if you wish and I'm pretty sure you only need a D3 in the three of them. QueenOfLeon is correct nine LC subjects is still a major undertaking even if three of them are at ordinary level and if the student is weak at languages it will set them back even more.

Because a D3 in a language is so difficult to achieve?

QueenOfLeon · 08-08-2012 1:42am

_LilyRose_ wrote: »

Sorry that this is a bit irrelevant to the current conversation! Is it true that when adding up HPAT and LC, even if you get over 560 your points are stopped(for want of a better word) and each 5 points extra you got count as 1 point. This is then added in with your HPAT score? So if you got 600 points plus a HPAT score of 180, you get 568+180=748 points?

Is this not a complete slap in the face to anyone who manages to get such extraordinarily high points??

Its from 550 upwards, so the max you could get before this year and the bonus points was 560 from the LC, now its 565.

The idea is to take the pressure off students to get 580-600 which would have been needed in the older system.

nogivingup · 08-08-2012 1:44am

_LilyRose_ wrote: »

Sorry that this is a bit irrelevant to the current conversation! Is it true that when adding up HPAT and LC, even if you get over 560 your points are stopped(for want of a better word) and each 5 points extra you got count as 1 point. This is then added in with your HPAT score? So if you got 600 points plus a HPAT score of 180, you get 568+180=748 points?

Is this not a complete slap in the face to anyone who manages to get such extraordinarily high points??

It's actually after 550! So 600 points is 560 (the extra 50 point count for 10, so 550+10=560) It is really unfair on those of us that work really hard to obtain such points but it's supposed to level the playing field for those that don't work as hard.
So 600 points+ HPAT 180
560+180= 740

Canard · 08-08-2012 1:51am

Yeah, because someone getting 550 is a slacker. Your posts reek of arrogance, I can't even take them seriously.

dcam · 08-08-2012 1:53am

nogivingup wrote: »

Because a D3 in a language is so difficult to achieve?

I never said it was extremely difficult to achieve but a student who struggles with languages would still have to put in a certain amount of study every day just to pass and this takes away from their points subjects. And even having to sit nine subjects when June comes around would be very draining and don't forget that English and Irish both have two exams very time consuming at exam time when you're not even counting them.

Darksider · 08-08-2012 3:16am

tweetybird4848 wrote: »

Darksider as a matter of interest what combined hpat and points are you aiming for? Also nogiving up, I found your remarks petty and ridculious. The leaving cert is more a measure of memory then anything else and it is simply untrue to say that anyone with points lower then 550 would be unable for medicine.

Well I'm hoping for 749 so I can get into dublin, but if I get 739 or more I will be perfectly happy even if I don't get my first choice.

nogivingup wrote: »

It's actually after 550! So 600 points is 560 (the extra 50 point count for 10, so 550+10=560) It is really unfair on those of us that work really hard to obtain such points but it's supposed to level the playing field for those that don't work as hard.
So 600 points+ HPAT 180
560+180= 740

Judging by your posts, you think medicine candidates should:
a) take up extra subjects so they can exclude ones they are weak at.
b) be able to manage at least an A2 in a subject with mere hard work.

Well if this is the case, why don't they put this simple hard work into the HPAT? It's an aptitude test designed to gauge your ability as a healthcare professional. Shouldn't someone who is 'capable of medicine' (getting over 550 by your definition apparently) also be able to get the HPAT score necessary for admission? I mean, surely even one lacking a natural ability in HPAT can manage an 85th percentile, which is all they would need to get in with 550.

finality · 08-08-2012 3:43am

Many people are passionate about medicine. When you're passionate about something it's a lot easier to work at it and to do well in it than if you're not.

What if someone got 3 A1s in the three sciences and then 3 B2s in German, English and Irish. That would give them 540. Are they unable for medicine because they had no interest in the languages and opted to put more work into science?

What about if someone got 6 A2s, getting 89% in each subject. 540. Obviously that's extremely unlikely, but I'm just trying to point out scenarios in which extremely intelligent and hardworking students might get under 550.

The bottom line is that to succeed in medicine, you DON'T need to excel in such a wide range of subjects as the leaving cert requires.

I think the main thing missing from your argument, nogivingup, is evidence showing that people who've gotten into medicine with under 550 LC points are not capable of succeeding in the course, or that they are consistently and significantly less likely to succeed than someone with over 550.

eyescreamcone · 08-08-2012 7:32am

Ask any doctor over 40 years of age how he/she did in the LC.
You might be surprised at the results they "achieved"

The equivalent of 550 would be at the upper end I would imagine.
And they still turned out to be excellent doctors...how come??

nogivingup · 08-08-2012 10:13am

Darksider wrote: »

Judging by your posts, you think medicine candidates should:
a) take up extra subjects so they can exclude ones they are weak at.
b) be able to manage at least an A2 in a subject with mere hard work.

Well if this is the case, why don't they put this simple hard work into the HPAT? It's an aptitude test designed to gauge your ability as a healthcare professional. Shouldn't someone who is 'capable of medicine' (getting over 550 by your definition apparently) also be able to get the HPAT score necessary for admission? I mean, surely even one lacking a natural ability in HPAT can manage an 85th percentile, which is all they would need to get in with 550.

1. The HPAT is an aptitude test, scores shouldn't differ with preparation. Obviously they do, and this is a flaw, but your post is just wrong on that count.
2. The Leaving Cert gauges your knowledge and ability- those that work hard do well, those that don't work hard don't do well.

You all seem to be missing the point- determination gets you high points, intelligence gets you high points, diligence gets you high points and, yes, a good memory gets you good points. You can hardly argue that these are things that a doctor doesn't need?

nogivingup · 08-08-2012 10:21am

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Ask any doctor over 40 years of age how he/she did in the LC.
You might be surprised at the results they "achieved"
The equivalent of 550 would be at the upper end I would imagine.
And they still turned out to be excellent doctors...how come??

You, thankfully, are speaking logically. You are forgetting, however, that the standards in the Leaving Cert are slipping and that top grades were FAR more difficult to achieve in the past when compared to recent years.

Leinsterr · 08-08-2012 4:40pm

I've read a sample UMAT test and it seems all right (apart from Section 3!!!). Are most people who take the HPAT doing honours English??? Just wondering does honours English help at all in the comprehensions. CHeers

Darksider · 08-08-2012 4:41pm

nogivingup wrote: »

Darksider wrote: »

Judging by your posts, you think medicine candidates should:
a) take up extra subjects so they can exclude ones they are weak at.
b) be able to manage at least an A2 in a subject with mere hard work.

Well if this is the case, why don't they put this simple hard work into the HPAT? It's an aptitude test designed to gauge your ability as a healthcare professional. Shouldn't someone who is 'capable of medicine' (getting over 550 by your definition apparently) also be able to get the HPAT score necessary for admission? I mean, surely even one lacking a natural ability in HPAT can manage an 85th percentile, which is all they would need to get in with 550.

1. The HPAT is an aptitude test, scores shouldn't differ with preparation. Obviously they do, and this is a flaw, but your post is just wrong on that count.
2. The Leaving Cert gauges your knowledge and ability- those that work hard do well, those that don't work hard don't do well.

You all seem to be missing the point- determination gets you high points, intelligence gets you high points, diligence gets you high points and, yes, a good memory gets you good points. You can hardly argue that these are things that a doctor doesn't need?

You get better at section 1 by learning to think critically. You get better at section 2 by learning to understand people's emotions better. The skills learned for section 3, I will admit, are totally worthless.

*Everything HPAT and Medicine 2012*

Comments

Everything HPAT and Medicine 2012