My maiden DART voyage

Padraig Mor · 22-09-2014 9:57am #1

An irregular visitor to Dublin, I usually stay very centrally. For a visit this weekend though, lack of availability due to the All Ireland pushed me out to a hotel in Ballsbridge. So, for the first time ever, I used the DART! My experience was as follows:

We planned to get the 16.25 from Connolly to Lansdowne Road (with the train continuing to Greystones). Having checked Irish Rail’s site for real time info, we arrived in good time at Connolly and got our tickets. The departures boards indicated that the 16.25 to Greystones would leave from Platform 6. Arrived to the platform at 16.22. The electronic sign at the (busy) platform listed the next train as leaving in approx. 35 minutes, destined for Bray. This was presumably the scheduled 16.56 service. No mention of the 16.25. A quick flip out of the trusty smartphone showed the 16.25 to Greystones still listed for Connolly. So we waited. And waited. Along with quite a large crowd of confused looking people. No announcements were made. 16.25 came and went. Out with the phone again – the 16.25 listing had now disappeared. The platform sign still just listed the 16.56 to Bray.

Enter “the uncertainty”: did I get this right – surely I can navigate a train station?; did the train leave early?; maybe I should go downstairs and find a staff member – but what if the train arrives while I’m gone? (we were under time pressure and waiting for the 16.56 would put our plans in disarray). Eventually, about 7/8 minutes late, a train approached – no announcements, no change in the platform signage. Getting closer, we could see all its destination boards read “Na Clocha Liatha”. Having a cupla focail, I knew that this was of course Greystones (and presumably our train). The signs remained in Irish though and didn’t cycle to English, meaning the vast majority of locals and tourists of course did not know where this train was headed (still no announcement or change to platform signs). As the doors opened, it was obvious quite a few people didn’t know whether to board or not. We stood near the doors. An American lady called in asking where the train was headed; we answered but I don’t think she heard us as she called in again to an Irish Rail staff member who happened to be walking through that section of the carriage. His response as the doors closed in her face? He laughed at her! I’m sure she’ll be singing the praises of Irish public transport to her countrymates…. At the next two stations, the platform signage again gave no mention of where this ‘ghost train’ was headed, although it was listed at Grand Canal Dock and Lansdowne Road (where we got off).

As I said, I hadn’t used the DART before. Is this level of unreliability, incompetence and downright ignorance normal?

foggy_lad · 22-09-2014 11:00am

The Irish Rail Answer is usually "Did you get to your destination?"

"If yes then what are you whinging about?"

You can make a complaint to Irish Rail about your experience and they might be able to explain the situation to you.

Padraig Mor · 22-09-2014 11:19am

foggy_lad wrote: »

The Irish Rail Answer is usually "Did you get to your destination?"

"If yes then what are you whinging about?"

You can make a complaint to Irish Rail about your experience and they might be able to explain the situation to you.

Yes, I'll be sending it on to them but don't expect much TBH. I realise that not everything will run according to plan all the time, but what annoyed and surprised me Saturday was the combination of things happening that shouldn't have, i.e. train late & no platform signage & no announcement & real time info disappearing & all info in Irish & rude staff member. One of these things happening isn't something to get worked up about (except for staff member), but ALL of them happening together shouldn't really occur! (And this is separate from Dublin Bus RTPI which I found to be hopeless, but that's for another thread).

devnull · 22-09-2014 12:07pm

Was this on Friday?

Last Friday's service was an aberration and I've already sent in a complaint about it.

I know there was a points failure but the complete lack of announcements and the incorrect information being given out really annoyed the hell out of a lot of people.

I could have got the bus but instead I was stuck at Howth Junction for half an hour.

Padraig Mor · 22-09-2014 12:09pm

devnull wrote: »

Was this on Friday?

Last Friday's service was an aberration and I've already sent in a complaint about it.

I know there was a points failure but the complete lack of announcements and the incorrect information being given out really annoyed the hell out of a lot of people.

No, Saturday afternoon.

devnull · 22-09-2014 12:20pm

With regards to the trains destination displays being incorrect, unfortunately the Asian built trains have had issues with their passenger information systems ever since they were introduced, and frequently break, don't work at all, have blank screens but announcements , don't have announcements but have screens, don't know where they are going or get stuck.

The only trains with PIS I trust are the German built units.

goingnowhere · 22-09-2014 1:36pm

The issue here was the platform display did not display the train

This is highly unusual

devnull · 22-09-2014 1:56pm

To be fair there was more than that issue, the way it was handled was a problem as well and the lack of information.

I accept that things go wrong from time to time, but Irish rail seem to be particularly bad at dealing with said situations of late on my daily commute.

Muahahaha · 22-09-2014 4:49pm

Thats the nub of it really. If something in the system breaks down the vast majority of people don't have a problem with that provided they get information about it so they can reassess their journey and decide if they need to switch to bus or taxi.

Anytime I'm in London I always notice how the Tube staff are really proactive about passing information to customers. Sometimes you see gangs of them standing in a station fielding questions from passengers on route info, delays, handing out Tube route maps, all that stuff. You see whiteboard signs up telling you what the service is like on each line and advice on alternate routes if something has broken down. You notice how Londoners almost expect these break downs and delays but at the same time so long as they have current info they don't get annoyed about it, they just replan their journey using the information provided and get on with things. Its a shame Irish Rail couldn't take a leaf out of their book.

devnull · 22-09-2014 5:19pm

That was my gripe on Friday.

I got on the train to Malahide and went all the way to Howth Junction as normal and the only message I read on the displays at the time of departure from Connolly was that services between Howth Junction and Howth were suspended and also all the Howth services showed as terminating at Howth Junction and all Malahides terminating at Malahide.

So of course people get on the Malahide train expecting to go to stations on that branch. We get to Kilbarack just over 10 minutes later and then we are stuck for almost 10 minutes before the driver says the line is closed and there will be a short delay. Another half an hour goes past and still we're sitting at Kilbarack. Yet the display on the platform continues to say "Services are suspended between Howth Junction and Howth"

Not a single announcement at Kilbarack either, nothing from the driver in the half an hour, until I use the remaining 5% of my battery that I was saving to look-up twitter and find out actually the line to Malahide was closed even before I got on the train, yet at this stage almost an hour after closure, the displays still were still only mentioning suspensions on the Howth branch. If I had known that before getting on the train I'd just have got the bus.

Ironically I today found out I had a friend on the Howth service behind who wanted to get off at Kilbarack, but ended up being stabled in Raheny for a while, because their train bound for Howth Junction couldn't go any further because we were blocking the line on a so called open line according to the displays.

I don't expect miracles and I realise that points failures do happen. But the fact was I spent 40 minutes stuck in Kilbarack with all the kids on the platform exhibiting anti-social behaviour with no announcements, incorrect information, and what felt like a can't be bothered attitude.

As a fellow passenger said, the fact that it was culture night and tours were happening at the station around the same time everything went crazy didn't show tourism in the city in the best light.

Mikros · 22-09-2014 8:16pm

Sounds about normal to me.

It's not so much that I expect the trains to work 100% of the time, but when there is a problem or delay the information provided to passengers is usually either non-existent, poor, incomprehensible or conflicts with the information displays. I still find myself wandering between platforms in Connolly at times with no idea if and where a delayed train is actually going to appear. Have no idea how tourists manage in those situations.

mickydoomsux · 22-09-2014 9:23pm

The funniest things about all of this?

The staff are equally in the dark in most of these situations with delays etc. No one in CTC ever picks up a phone to tell staff on the ground that trains are delayed/broken down or whatever.

The first we hear is usually from members of the public.

I've had trains sitting on platforms 40 minutes after scheduled departure at their starting station on the line i work on and knew nothing about it until i rang CTC to find out where the train was when it didn't show up.

This has been brought up to management numerous times and apparently it isn't the job of CTC staff to let other staff know about delays unless you contact them and ask them about it.

devnull · 22-09-2014 9:44pm

What I don't understand is if they were able to tell people on twitter and on their website, how comes they were not able to make announcements or update the station displays?

Even half an hour after they updated the website, the information on the displays was still out of date.

Rashers72 · 22-09-2014 11:55pm

Friday was a disaster alright. I was delayed 88 minutes at Connolly. Incredible lack of announcements. At least I had a phone number for the Connolly information desk, but they told me to leave my seat on the packed train, and go find a staff member on the platform, as the information desk had guess what.....no information. For an entire 88 minutes??? Come on. We deserve better. 95% of the time services, and staff, are fine. But when things go wrong, they just completely drop the ball. I have never had a good experience during a service failure, and in all cases, there is one theme....poor communication.
I would be interested to hear what staff think...are the customers being unreasonable to expect some information? Or are the lines of communication within IE simply so bad, that frontline staff don't care anymore? Just curious...rant over!

beauf · 23-09-2014 12:17am

Padraig Mor wrote: »

...As I said, I hadn’t used the DART before. Is this level of unreliability, incompetence and downright ignorance normal?

Most of the time there is no problem.

Is this the way its handled when there is a problem, no info, poor signage etc.

Most definitely.

WomanSkirtFan8 · 23-09-2014 12:55am

Padraig Mor wrote: »

An irregular visitor to Dublin, I usually stay very centrally. For a visit this weekend though, lack of availability due to the All Ireland pushed me out to a hotel in Ballsbridge. So, for the first time ever, I used the DART! My experience was as follows:

We planned to get the 16.25 from Connolly to Lansdowne Road (with the train continuing to Greystones). Having checked Irish Rail’s site for real time info, we arrived in good time at Connolly and got our tickets. The departures boards indicated that the 16.25 to Greystones would leave from Platform 6. Arrived to the platform at 16.22. The electronic sign at the (busy) platform listed the next train as leaving in approx. 35 minutes, destined for Bray. This was presumably the scheduled 16.56 service. No mention of the 16.25. A quick flip out of the trusty smartphone showed the 16.25 to Greystones still listed for Connolly. So we waited. And waited. Along with quite a large crowd of confused looking people. No announcements were made. 16.25 came and went. Out with the phone again – the 16.25 listing had now disappeared. The platform sign still just listed the 16.56 to Bray.

Enter “the uncertainty”: did I get this right – surely I can navigate a train station?; did the train leave early?; maybe I should go downstairs and find a staff member – but what if the train arrives while I’m gone? (we were under time pressure and waiting for the 16.56 would put our plans in disarray). Eventually, about 7/8 minutes late, a train approached – no announcements, no change in the platform signage. Getting closer, we could see all its destination boards read “Na Clocha Liatha”. Having a cupla focail, I knew that this was of course Greystones (and presumably our train). The signs remained in Irish though and didn’t cycle to English, meaning the vast majority of locals and tourists of course did not know where this train was headed (still no announcement or change to platform signs). As the doors opened, it was obvious quite a few people didn’t know whether to board or not. We stood near the doors. An American lady called in asking where the train was headed; we answered but I don’t think she heard us as she called in again to an Irish Rail staff member who happened to be walking through that section of the carriage. His response as the doors closed in her face? He laughed at her! I’m sure she’ll be singing the praises of Irish public transport to her countrymates…. At the next two stations, the platform signage again gave no mention of where this ‘ghost train’ was headed, although it was listed at Grand Canal Dock and Lansdowne Road (where we got off).

As I said, I hadn’t used the DART before. Is this level of unreliability, incompetence and downright ignorance normal?

no its not normal. I'm usually in dublin on Friday afternoons on a fairly regular basis and that doesn't usual happen with that particular train. Usually they run like clockwork and on time. So you probably just got caugt out unintentionlly.

LXFlyer · 23-09-2014 8:38am

mickydoomsux wrote: »

The funniest things about all of this?

The staff are equally in the dark in most of these situations with delays etc. No one in CTC ever picks up a phone to tell staff on the ground that trains are delayed/broken down or whatever.

The first we hear is usually from members of the public.

I've had trains sitting on platforms 40 minutes after scheduled departure at their starting station on the line i work on and knew nothing about it until i rang CTC to find out where the train was when it didn't show up.

This has been brought up to management numerous times and apparently it isn't the job of CTC staff to let other staff know about delays unless you contact them and ask them about it.

devnull wrote: »

What I don't understand is if they were able to tell people on twitter and on their website, how comes they were not able to make announcements or update the station displays?

Even half an hour after they updated the website, the information on the displays was still out of date.

Rashers72 wrote: »

Friday was a disaster alright. I was delayed 88 minutes at Connolly. Incredible lack of announcements. At least I had a phone number for the Connolly information desk, but they told me to leave my seat on the packed train, and go find a staff member on the platform, as the information desk had guess what.....no information. For an entire 88 minutes??? Come on. We deserve better. 95% of the time services, and staff, are fine. But when things go wrong, they just completely drop the ball. I have never had a good experience during a service failure, and in all cases, there is one theme....poor communication.
I would be interested to hear what staff think...are the customers being unreasonable to expect some information? Or are the lines of communication within IE simply so bad, that frontline staff don't care anymore? Just curious...rant over!

This is really where Irish Rail still cannot get it right.

Interestingly precisely the same problem has been highlighted this morning in an article on the BBC News website.

Passenger Focus (the UK statutory passenger watchdog) have published a survey which has found exactly the same problem - worth watching the video on the link below as I suspect it will resonate with quite a few passengers here.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-29317630

Rail passengers 'dissatisfied' with delay information

A third of rail passengers are happy with the way their train company deals with delays or cancellations, a survey has suggested.

Passenger Focus's survey said rail customers found Twitter had better information than station staff.

The passenger watchdog carried out the survey of 1,020 passengers who had a delay in the previous seven days for the Office of Rail Regulation (ORR).

ORR said improvements had been made by rail companies, but more were needed.

The results of the passenger survey were sent to the train companies.

One customer who completed the survey said: "I'd have liked an announcement from a human, rather than numbers on a board."

I've noticed from some of the new direct award/refranchising agreements that some of the UK train operating companies have committed to issuing platform staff with tablets to try to improve the information flow to customers.

To me it sounds like you would need an extra body in CTC whose specific task is to deal with getting information in these circumstances out to frontline staff.

devnull · 23-09-2014 10:40am

Things are not perfect in the UK by any means with regards to passenger information during disruption, but by and large they are handled better than they are by Irish Rail in my experience.

I live in hope that Irish Rail one day will have passenger information systems that are similar to your average UK large Town/City stations, but I can't see it happening for a while.

The Irish Rail screens show minimum information in comparison. If you compare Connolly with any major city in the UK it's so far behind it's unreal.

LXFlyer · 23-09-2014 11:39am

devnull wrote: »

Things are not perfect in the UK by any means with regards to passenger information during disruption, but by and large they are handled better than they are by Irish Rail in my experience.

I live in hope that Irish Rail one day will have passenger information systems that are similar to your average UK large Town/City stations, but I can't see it happening for a while.

The Irish Rail screens show minimum information in comparison. If you compare Connolly with any major city in the UK it's so far behind it's unreal.

I would agree about the PIS screens - at the moment they can't put train lengths onto them as the system does not have that capability, however there are green shoots, as I've noticed that the main departures board in Heuston is now displaying train lengths (presumably this is controlled locally in the station).

However, when it comes to managing disruption and related communications, I would certainly be of the opinion that they seem to find it as difficult across the water as they do here to deal with unplanned disruptions. Looking at various transport forums will tell you that, as there are numerous threads about people being left completely in the dark, missing trains, etc. due to a complete lack of proper information.

devnull · 23-09-2014 12:51pm

It's not just the lack of train lengths, is just the sheer limitations of them due to only two lines of information being shown, having long and wide two line displays is useless.

Much better to have a sign like this on every platform like even in the average sized Towns in the UK, since they hold a far bigger amount of info at a time.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/northyorkshire/content/images/2007/11/16/paris_gallery_1_353x470.jpg

On Island Platforms where there is a train going out on each side, you then stick a general information screen in the middle between either platforms display, showing a table of departures by default, or disruption information if it's happening.

You then replace those ugly bank of two blue screens in the station with two LED ones, the first and second showing departures, but allowing the first to change to a 2 page layout during disruption, allowing the second screen to show the latest information.

The only thing I wouldn't change too much is the main screens in Connolly, I'd just add an extra one to show later departures which again can also revert to disruption information if need be.

There are ways to improve PIS at stations even when things are running properly. The fact that in the capitals main station you can only see the next dart in either direction from the main departures board, but you can see the list of trains on the blue screens, but not where they are stopping is very poor, the whole provision of information needs to be overhauled, but as I say I don't expect it to happen.

Hilly Bill · 23-09-2014 1:35pm

lxflyer wrote: »

This is really where Irish Rail still cannot get it right.

Interestingly precisely the same problem has been highlighted this morning in an article on the BBC News website.

Passenger Focus (the UK statutory passenger watchdog) have published a survey which has found exactly the same problem - worth watching the video on the link below as I suspect it will resonate with quite a few passengers here.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-29317630

I've noticed from some of the new direct award/refranchising agreements that some of the UK train operating companies have committed to issuing platform staff with tablets to try to improve the information flow to customers.

To me it sounds like you would need an extra body in CTC whose specific task is to deal with getting information in these circumstances out to frontline staff.[/QUOTE]

There is, text and e-mail alerts get sent to some managers phones and certain e-mail accounts, thats how the twitter account gets them. With the points failure in Howth Jct ( AGAIN ), all that would have been said was the nature of the fault, it wouldnt say how long the delay would be only maybe an estimated time .
How this info gets passed on to the passengers is where the breakdown occurs, some will do all they can to keep the passengers informed, others will be a bit shy about it or havent been properly informed by their managers etc. There is no excuse for the lack of announcements on trains as the driver is in contact with ctc and can give reqular updates every 5 minutes or so if needed. If they havent received any updates then they cant just repeat what they know already. Its the same in stations, announcements can be made and signs put up on the ticket machines and staff on the ground informing people of the delays or lack of service before they buy tickets.

Hilly Bill · 23-09-2014 1:42pm

devnull wrote: »

It's not just the lack of train lengths, is just the sheer limitations of them due to only two lines of information being shown, having long and wide two line displays is useless.

Much better to have a sign like this on every platform like even in the average sized Towns in the UK, since they hold a far bigger amount of info at a time.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/northyorkshire/content/images/2007/11/16/paris_gallery_1_353x470.jpg

On Island Platforms where there is a train going out on each side, you then stick a general information screen in the middle between either platforms display, showing a table of departures by default, or disruption information if it's happening.

You then replace those ugly bank of two blue screens in the station with two LED ones, the first and second showing departures, but allowing the first to change to a 2 page layout during disruption, allowing the second screen to show the latest information.

The only thing I wouldn't change too much is the main screens in Connolly, I'd just add an extra one to show later departures which again can also revert to disruption information if need be.

There are ways to improve PIS at stations even when things are running properly. The fact that in the capitals main station you can only see the next dart in either direction from the main departures board, but you can see the list of trains on the blue screens, but not where they are stopping is very poor, the whole provision of information needs to be overhauled, but as I say I don't expect it to happen.

The big boards will tell you where the trains stop at. It its a dart then you know it stop at all stops its destination. There is also a full timetable on the wall by the coffee dock plus time tables for you to take away.
There is a screen by the big telly in Connolly and the barrier that will tell you when the next train North and Southbound is and its current location.

Hilly Bill · 23-09-2014 1:46pm

devnull wrote: »

Things are not perfect in the UK by any means with regards to passenger information during disruption, but by and large they are handled better than they are by Irish Rail in my experience.

I live in hope that Irish Rail one day will have passenger information systems that are similar to your average UK large Town/City stations, but I can't see it happening for a while.

The Irish Rail screens show minimum information in comparison. If you compare Connolly with any major city in the UK it's so far behind it's unreal.

They are not in a competition with the Uk so it doesnt matter. What other info do you want displayed?

devnull · 23-09-2014 1:54pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The big boards will tell you where the trains stop at. It its a dart then you know it stop at all stops its destination. There is also a full timetable on the wall by the coffee dock plus time tables for you to take away.
There is a screen by the big telly in Connolly and the barrier that will tell you when the next train North and Southbound is and its current location.

It's all very well if you are starting your Journey at Connolly, but not everybody is and there are a lot of interchanging passengers there and for tourists, it's downright unfriendly.

Just as well they're not in competition with the UK, since if they were they'd come somewhere close to zero in comparison for provision of on platform information.

There is absolutely zero provision for showing proper disruption information on the PIS at Connolly, scrolling it every now and then in place of departures or where a train stops doesn't count. the fact is a two line display on a platform trying to share all information which ideally should be on separate or much larger screens with proper details is a half arsed way of giving proper info.

Hilly Bill · 23-09-2014 2:04pm

devnull wrote: »

It's all very well if you are starting your Journey at Connolly, but not everybody is and there are a lot of interchanging passengers there and for tourists, it's downright unfriendly.

Just as well they're not in competition with the UK, since if they were they'd come somewhere close to zero in comparison for provision of on platform information.

All the platform screens tell you where a train stops. Do you want the blue screens to not only list the next 10 or so trains and their platform departure but to list every stop along the way as well? Surely a departure for Bray,Greystones, Maynooth, Howth, Malahide and Drogheda etc is sufficient enough without having to list the next train to all the intermediate stops along the way as well.
How is it unfriendly for tourists? when they go to Howth they ask which train? If the go to Skerries, they ask which train, if they want to go to Kildare they get given directions to Hueston.
There isnt a lot more that can be done unless you want them to lead them by the hand to their destination.

In an event of a disruption, a display board get placed on the concourse in Connolly stating the nature of the disruption along with announcemets.

Heisenberg1 · 23-09-2014 2:12pm

mickydoomsux wrote: »

The funniest things about all of this?

The staff are equally in the dark in most of these situations with delays etc. No one in CTC ever picks up a phone to tell staff on the ground that trains are delayed/broken down or whatever.

The first we hear is usually from members of the public.

I've had trains sitting on platforms 40 minutes after scheduled departure at their starting station on the line i work on and knew nothing about it until i rang CTC to find out where the train was when it didn't show up.

This has been brought up to management numerous times and apparently it isn't the job of CTC staff to let other staff know about delays unless you contact them and ask them about it.

What's funny about that is that you waited 40 minutes before you made a call here in lies the problem. Do station inspectors and the likes not get text messages about delays they should be passing this on to frontline staff.

Heisenberg1 · 23-09-2014 2:50pm

mickydoomsux wrote: »

The funniest things about all of this?

The staff are equally in the dark in most of these situations with delays etc. No one in CTC ever picks up a phone to tell staff on the ground that trains are delayed/broken down or whatever.

The first we hear is usually from members of the public.

I've had trains sitting on platforms 40 minutes after scheduled departure at their starting station on the line i work on and knew nothing about it until i rang CTC to find out where the train was when it didn't show up.

This has been brought up to management numerous times and apparently it isn't the job of CTC staff to let other staff know about delays unless you contact them and ask them about it.

What's funny about that is that you waited 40 minutes before you made a call here in lies the problem. Do station inspectors and the likes not get text messages about delays they should be passing this on to frontline staff.

n97 mini · 23-09-2014 4:06pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

In an event of a disruption, a display board get placed on the concourse in Connolly stating the nature of the disruption along with announcemets.

The top of that display board is lower than head height and is easily missed as it gets lost in a crowd. It's also no use to anyone not coming in the Luas end, as that is where it is positioned -- anyone coming up the stairs from the front/back door (IFSC side) or indeed from another platform will not see it.

Last Friday no trains were travelling north of Harmonstown, that sign was out, yet the main display board showed all services as normal.

The main display board is where everyone looks first when they come into Connolly.

LXFlyer · 23-09-2014 4:12pm

Without getting into nitty gritty of individual details, I think it is fair comment to say that there could be a significant improvement in the quality of information passed on to operational staff and passengers in the event of an unplanned disruption.

Anyone trying to claim otherwise is kidding themselves.

The current platform displays are also outdated and are in need of renewal, as the information that they provide really isn't as complete as people might expect these days.

This obviously would need to be connected into the signalling system and how this is done is a whole different kettle of fish. The ongoing re-signalling projects may facilitate an improvement, I don't know.

I don't think it unreasonable to compare Irish Rail with UK TOC's - in structure they are quite similar, so coming along and saying "we don't compete with them" is a rather daft argument.

But again, like Dublin Bus, all these things require funding and that's another battle to be fought.

Hilly Bill · 23-09-2014 5:11pm

n97 mini wrote: »

The top of that display board is lower than head height and is easily missed as it gets lost in a crowd. It's also no use to anyone not coming in the Luas end, as that is where it is positioned -- anyone coming up the stairs from the front/back door (IFSC side) or indeed from another platform will not see it.

Last Friday no trains were travelling north of Harmonstown, that sign was out, yet the main display board showed all services as normal.

The main display board is where everyone looks first when they come into Connolly.

Its hard to miss to be honest its placed in the middle at the barrier end.

n97 mini · 23-09-2014 5:13pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Its hard to miss to be honest its placed in the middle at the barrier end.

It's hard to see from platform 5, 6 or 7!

Hilly Bill · 23-09-2014 5:16pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Without getting into nitty gritty of individual details, I think it is fair comment to say that there could be a significant improvement in the quality of information passed on to operational staff and passengers in the event of an unplanned disruption.

Anyone trying to claim otherwise is kidding themselves.

The current platform displays are also outdated and are in need of renewal, as the information that they provide really isn't as complete as people might expect these days.

This obviously would need to be connected into the signalling system and how this is done is a whole different kettle of fish. The ongoing re-signalling projects may facilitate an improvement, I don't know.

I don't think it unreasonable to compare Irish Rail with UK TOC's - in structure they are quite similar, so coming along and saying "we don't compete with them" is a rather daft argument.

But again, like Dublin Bus, all these things require funding and that's another battle to be fought.

It is unreasonable, this is Ireland not the UK. Does Irish Rail compete with those in the UK? No it doesnt. Why not compare it to France, Belgium, Algeria while you are at it? or the Congo.

Hilly Bill · 23-09-2014 5:20pm

n97 mini wrote: »

It's hard to see from platform 5, 6 or 7!

You would have to pass it to get there wouldnt you and the displays on them platforms would show the disruptions. You do realise that the board is for that location only dont you and not for the whole station?

devnull · 23-09-2014 5:30pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Surely a departure for Bray,Greystones, Maynooth, Howth, Malahide and Drogheda etc is sufficient enough without having to list the next train to all the intermediate stops along the way as well.

The fact we cannot do that is a limitation of the current screens being utterly useless and being able to display very little information at once - the fact that a Siemens refurbished DART can display more characters at once on it's side display than the platform display that it stops at tells you all you need to know about the quality of screens on said platform.

How is it unfriendly for tourists? when they go to Howth they ask which train? If the go to Skerries, they ask which train, if they want to go to Kildare they get given directions to Hueston.

No I want to abolish the blue screens completely and replace them with something more modern such as can be found in the vast majority of UK stations in medium to Large Towns and cities.

The idea of any information screen is to inform, the problem is with the current screens to anyone with little knowledge of the system, they do not provide the answers to questions, any good information system should answer the publics questions, they should not create more questions that then need to be asked of staff, it should be designed to answer whatever questions someone new to the system would ask. If it requires someone to actually know the system well in the first place, it's not doing it's job.

The Blue screens need to be abolished with LED screens in their place like these:

Such screens allow an extra line which can be put to good use, for example, for Maynooth fast services, add an extra line saying "Non stop to Maynooth" , "Grand Canal Dock Station Closed" when closed for matches - where there is nothing to add, don't add it.

The platforms then get these style screens on them. With two screens per platform, one towards the front of the platform and another one half way down. This is especially relevant for improving information for platform 4 at Connolly, where the only display is right at the front of the train.

In areas such as Platform 6 and 7 at Connolly, you put a bank of three displays, in the middle of the roof covered area, left hand side one being Platform 7, middle one being list of departures, right hand side one being Platform 6. The middle one then converts to show service disruption when necessary or any other important messages. At the moment to see information for any other platforms when you alight on the DART on Platform 6 and 7, you need to walk all the way to Platform 5.

There isnt a lot more that can be done unless you want them to lead them by the hand to their destination.

In an event of a disruption, a display board get placed on the concourse in Connolly stating the nature of the disruption along with announcemets.

Yet such board did not appear on Friday.

I keep telling you, that not everyone uses the concourse at Connolly, there are huge amounts of people changing trains who will never go near the concourse and will be on the platforms at any one time, and disruption will happen when people are on the concourse.

The concouruse area actually is the bit that is not quite so bad as the rest of the station, it could be improved though by slightly decreasing the size of the screens to allow more in the same amount of space rather than just the next one DART in any direction, two commuter and two intercity. Something like this.

The last screen then shows any service or general information or upcoming disruption that can be tweaked to advertise special services and trains when not in use. The one before it then shows departures after the ones listed on the main boards or arrivals, whichever you choose. Straight away you make it quicker for someone to update screens without having to go and write some display board.

Of course not every station needs such information, for stations such as Pearse, Dun Lagohaire, and other stations with a large amount of non dart traffic calling at them, something like this in the concourse would suit

For Dart only stations perhaps the portrait style boards will not be needed, but if they are going to stick with the horiztonal style boards, then they could do with something that has at least 3-4 long lines (think current Dublin Bus RPTI screen style, just a little bigger text) rather than two short ones at present. Ideally a 4 line version of this.

devnull · 23-09-2014 5:43pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It is unreasonable, this is Ireland not the UK. Does Irish Rail compete with those in the UK? No it doesnt. Why not compare it to France, Belgium, Algeria while you are at it? or the Congo.

Nobody is competing with anyone.

I think looking at the quality of information and displays that provide it in other countries and seeing how it compares with what we have is pretty normal think to do. If things are handled better in different countries and they use some different solutions then I think it's extremely relevant to compare it.

The reason I used the UK for an example, is because that it's a country which over the last few years has changed a lot of it's passenger information displays at many stations which for the most part has improved the delivery of such information.

n97 mini · 23-09-2014 5:56pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You would have to pass it to get there wouldnt you and the displays on them platforms would show the disruptions. You do realise that the board is for that location only dont you and not for the whole station?

I came in on platform 4 and there was no mention on the PA of any delays. First I heard of it was a member of staff down in front of the ticket desks was shouting it out.

LXFlyer · 23-09-2014 6:31pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It is unreasonable, this is Ireland not the UK. Does Irish Rail compete with those in the UK? No it doesnt. Why not compare it to France, Belgium, Algeria while you are at it? or the Congo.

I'm sorry but this post is just plain daft.

Are you seriously suggesting that it is not good practice to compare the information systems of our nearest neighbours from whom most of our rules and regulations, and information practices have developed?

I seriously have to question your bona fides if you think looking at best practice on a similar railway operation and implementing it here is not a good idea.

All I'm reading in these posts of yours is a long list of counter-arguments in almost tit-for-tat style that try to imply that everything is fine, when it clearly isn't.

I'm quite happy to explain why things are the way they are, but not even I would try to say that things cannot be improved significantly and that IE cannot learn from best practice elsewhere.

I think you need to realise that things CAN and should be improved!

LXFlyer · 23-09-2014 6:42pm

devnull wrote: »

Yet such board did not appear on Friday.

I keep telling you, that not everyone uses the concourse at Connolly, there are huge amounts of people changing trains who will never go near the concourse and will be on the platforms at any one time, and disruption will happen when people are on the concourse.

The concouruse area actually is the bit that is not quite so bad as the rest of the station, it could be improved though by slightly decreasing the size of the screens to allow more in the same amount of space rather than just the next one DART in any direction, two commuter and two intercity. Something like this.

In the interests of fairness I'd have to point out that there was an information board up in the main concourse last Friday.

That's not saying that things could not be improved upon, but as I pointed out before, updating the platform PIS will depend upon the ability of any PIS to interact with the signalling systems in place.

devnull · 23-09-2014 7:01pm

lxflyer wrote: »

In the interests of fairness I'd have to point out that there was an information board up in the main concourse last Friday.

That's not saying that things could not be improved upon, but as I pointed out before, updating the platform PIS will depend upon the ability of any PIS to interact with the signalling systems in place.

Didn't notice anything at 7.30pm

My complaint was not in relation to the train running information and destination displays on the PIS, since I agree that is going to be controlled by signalling.

My issue was the manually added scrolling message about disruption which was incorrect and out of date since it displayed that trains were suspended between Howth Junction and Howth, even when they had been suspended on both the Howth and Malahide branches, this was still the case almost an hour later after such disruption occured.

LXFlyer · 23-09-2014 7:08pm

devnull wrote: »

Didn't notice anything at 7.30pm

My complaint was not in relation to the train running information and destination displays on the PIS, since I agree that is going to be controlled by signalling.

My issue was the manually added scrolling message about disruption which was incorrect and out of date since it displayed that trains were suspended between Howth Junction and Howth, even when they had been suspended on both the Howth and Malahide branches, this was still the case almost an hour later after such disruption occured.

Well that shouldn't be happening. Full stop.

devnull · 23-09-2014 7:20pm

I actually would have got the bus from Amiens Street but since the Malahide branch was running according to the displays whilst waiting for the 7.38 from Connolly (which was about 5 mins or so late) I thought I'd get it.

We got to Kilbarack about 8pm and were told the line was closed through Howth Junction for a few minutes, about 8.30pm we were told it would be 5-10 minutes more. We eventually got moving at about 8.40pm. Even during the 40 minutes we were waiting at Kilbarack the displays continued to say "Due to a points failure, services are suspended between Howth Junction and Howth." which was simply not the extent of the issue.

Looking at real time whilst we were at Kilbarack for 40 minutes, a train ahead of us was stuck at Howth Junction, the following train to Howth was stuck at Raheny for 30 minutes, and another train at Harmonstown and probably more down the line. For all intents and purposes basically nothing was moving at least Northbound during that time since there was a backlog of trains each sitting in a platform at a station building up, because another train was blocking the next station.

It was far more disruption than Howth branch services operating to and from Howth Jct (the displays actually showed "Howth Jct" rather than Howth for Howth trains, but it was impossible for them to get there as the line was blocked by stranded trains which were in turn blocked by other trains) and Malahide running as normal as the displays indicated.

Rashers72 · 23-09-2014 8:29pm

Went to drop by refund application into Connolly station this morning for last Fridays points failure.
Man in his early 60's I'd say in front of me came down on the train from Belfast, and wanted to get to Beaumont Hospital.
Older guy on the desk told him nothing to do with trains, and told him to 'go outside and ask around'. Welcome to Dublin, Irish Rail style! Strangely there is another guy on the desk who is brilliant, but then you have this twat treating a customer like that. I genuinely feel sorry for the staff in IE who actually care about their customers, and want to do a good job. There are too many staff simply undoing their good work, every day. Must be incredibly disheartening.

murphaph · 24-09-2014 9:20am

Irish Rail doesn't see itself as a transport company but rather a jobs club. That's the nub of the issue. Most of the staff and management don't really care about getting people from A to B.

Padraig Mor · 24-09-2014 9:43am

Hilly Bill wrote: »

In an event of a disruption, a display board get placed on the concourse in Connolly stating the nature of the disruption along with announcemets.

OP here. Having a sign on the concourse (there was none on Saturday) isn't much good when I'm *somewhere else*, checking the Irish Rail website which indicates everything is running swimmingly. In my case, I was at Busaras (alright, the Brewdock pub next door!) and chose DART from Connolly over bus from O'Connell St. If the correct information had been available *where it was needed*, I would have made a different choice.

the displays on them platforms would show the disruptions.

The displays on the platform on Saturday did not show any disruption. Hell, they didn't even list the train at all.

How is it unfriendly for tourists?

I would regard the Irish Rail "frontline" staff member I saw laughing at a tourist as the doors closed in her face to be pretty damn unfriendly.

Rashers72 wrote:

Older guy on the desk told him nothing to do with trains, and told him to 'go outside and ask around'. Welcome to Dublin, Irish Rail style!

Whatever about the lack of info etc I came across on Saturday (hey, **** happens), what shocked me was that staff member laughing at the poor confused woman. Frankly, I was embarrassed that she would be treated in such a manner in a country that panders to American tourists. Grounds for instant dismissal in my opinion.

As I said, this was my first time using DART and I started this thread to see if my experience was unusual occurrence. Seems like it wasn't. Anyway, I've sent a complaint to IR, although I don't expect much of a response.

Hilly Bill · 24-09-2014 10:55am

n97 mini wrote: »

I came in on platform 4 and there was no mention on the PA of any delays. First I heard of it was a member of staff down in front of the ticket desks was shouting it out.

You came in on Plat 4, where did you go then? out the station or where you looking to transfer trains?

Hilly Bill · 24-09-2014 11:02am

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm sorry but this post is just plain daft.

Are you seriously suggesting that it is not good practice to compare the information systems of our nearest neighbours from whom most of our rules and regulations, and information practices have developed?

I seriously have to question your bona fides if you think looking at best practice on a similar railway operation and implementing it here is not a good idea.

All I'm reading in these posts of yours is a long list of counter-arguments in almost tit-for-tat style that try to imply that everything is fine, when it clearly isn't.

I'm quite happy to explain why things are the way they are, but not even I would try to say that things cannot be improved significantly and that IE cannot learn from best practice elsewhere.

I think you need to realise that things CAN and should be improved!

Baically you are saying that Irish Rail should meet the same standard as the Railway in the UK is that it?

Mikros · 24-09-2014 11:35am

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Baically you are saying that Irish Rail should meet the same standard as the Railway in the UK is that it?

Why shouldn't they?

Obviously there will be differences in funding, economy of scale, passenger numbers etc. but surely any company should be identifying best practice and looking to see what can implemented within their budget and control. "Good enough, most of the time" shows a real lack of vision.

Hilly Bill · 24-09-2014 11:56am

Mikros wrote: »

Why shouldn't they?

Obviously there will be differences in funding, economy of scale, passenger numbers etc. but surely any company should be identifying best practice and looking to see what can implemented within their budget and control. "Good enough, most of the time" shows a real lack of vision.

Nobody said good enough most of the time.

My point is, is the UK way the right way ? Is there a better way out there? There is always room for improvement but doing it the way of our neighbours just because they are larger doesnt make it the right way nor doing it the way some one on here wants either. Lets make sure it actually improves something first before changing it just because its done across the water.
Im all for change and improvement by the way

.

foggy_lad · 24-09-2014 12:13pm

I was on a few trains on that "black" friday and it was not just the Dart service that was in a heap. I boarded the 4pm Waterford to Dublin train in Carlow at 4.52, It was a few minutes late leaving Carlow but that is usually not an issue. this day it was an issue and because the train was delayed by a late timber train we got stuck in Athy waiting for the 4.40pm Dublin-Waterford train at 5.35pm, Then because of this delay there was a further delay(slow progress) on getting to Kildare. Instead of the advertised 58minutes this poxy train took 90 minutes to get to Heuston.

There were announcements from the driver but they were broken and garbled due to faulty equipment oh him moving from the microphone while speaking? making the announcements inaudible and completely useless.

Then I got to Connolly and got a train to Malahide, the first thing i noticed was the display in Connolly showed some trains from earlier in the afternoon and everything else as normal but I knew that was not the case.

There was only one person to ask at the ticket barrier and he had a tv behind him with all the real trains on it. asked when and where the next Malahide train was and he told me platform 6 in 5 minutes, got to the platform and the dart was pulling away! no information on the platforms but the displays for platform 7 indicated a train to Drogheda in 18 minutes so I got that. It was running about 10 miutes late in Malahide but no major delays.

Getting back to Dublin from Malahide was an absolute nightmare!the dart was supposed to leave at 7.45 but didnt leave till about 8.30 because of the signal fault at howth junction, then the poxy dart was delayed again at raheny station for another 15 minutes. announcements were inaudible or just garbled and gave no real information. the standard Dublin Bus accepting tickets but that is only of use if there are buses running!

If we were told in Malahide that it would take 45minutes to get going I would have got the bus that was leaving at around the same time but announcements were not made until that bus had left and the next one was in about 50minutes!

from Malahide they should have had buses leaving directly from outside the station at train times! as it was they failed miserably to communicate with passengers.

n97 mini · 24-09-2014 3:04pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You came in on Plat 4, where did you go then? out the station or where you looking to transfer trains?

What difference does it make! There were no announcements on any PA system, and similarly the main departures board showed everything was A-OK.

schemingbohemia · 24-09-2014 5:36pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

I was on a few trains on that "black" friday and it was not just the Dart service that was in a heap. I boarded the 4pm Waterford to Dublin train in Carlow at 4.52, It was a few minutes late leaving Carlow but that is usually not an issue. this day it was an issue and because the train was delayed by a late timber train we got stuck in Athy waiting for the 4.40pm Dublin-Waterford train at 5.35pm, Then because of this delay there was a further delay(slow progress) on getting to Kildare. Instead of the advertised 58minutes this poxy train took 90 minutes to get to Heuston.

There were announcements from the driver but they were broken and garbled due to faulty equipment oh him moving from the microphone while speaking? making the announcements inaudible and completely useless.

Then I got to Connolly and got a train to Malahide, the first thing i noticed was the display in Connolly showed some trains from earlier in the afternoon and everything else as normal but I knew that was not the case.

There was only one person to ask at the ticket barrier and he had a tv behind him with all the real trains on it. asked when and where the next Malahide train was and he told me platform 6 in 5 minutes, got to the platform and the dart was pulling away! no information on the platforms but the displays for platform 7 indicated a train to Drogheda in 18 minutes so I got that. It was running about 10 miutes late in Malahide but no major delays.

Getting back to Dublin from Malahide was an absolute nightmare!the dart was supposed to leave at 7.45 but didnt leave till about 8.30 because of the signal fault at howth junction, then the poxy dart was delayed again at raheny station for another 15 minutes. announcements were inaudible or just garbled and gave no real information. the standard Dublin Bus accepting tickets but that is only of use if there are buses running!

If we were told in Malahide that it would take 45minutes to get going I would have got the bus that was leaving at around the same time but announcements were not made until that bus had left and the next one was in about 50minutes!

from Malahide they should have had buses leaving directly from outside the station at train times! as it was they failed miserably to communicate with passengers.

Did you really go all the way from Carlow to Malahide to basically turn straight around and come straight back?

My maiden DART voyage

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