Law Firm Big 5 Salaries 2012

hopefullegal · 10-03-2012 8:10pm #1

Well guys

In the 3rd yr of a law degree. In the middle of all the summer internship for the Big 5 etc stuff.

Posting to find out what the starting salary is in the Big 5 if you're lucky enough win the legal lotto and get in!

I know there's a thread on this from 2009 but I'm guessing salary is much lower now.

So if anyone knows it would be great to know

NoQuarter · 10-03-2012 11:55pm

About 35k as far as I know but they vary.

hopefullegal · 11-03-2012 2:33am

Thanks NoQuarter. Do you know by how much they vary? Heard that Maples the best.

NoQuarter · 11-03-2012 10:47am

maples is 42k as far as i know. The are all around 35k otherwise.

Procrastastudy · 11-03-2012 2:59pm

Not bad considering a friend of mine started with a Solicitors in the UK on £19K - I assume it was a reasonble sized company as she has a good degree from Cambridge.

That may have been a training salary as I know she got a bump to £35K after a while. Maybe its not all doom and gloom here!

Jev/N · 11-03-2012 3:57pm

Don't got by salary alone.

Some of the highly paying positions will make you work (extremely hard) for that, others are more realistic.

If you can, do an internship. You'll get a proper sense about the place before you have to choose.

hopefullegal · 11-03-2012 4:18pm

Thanks GCDLawstudent and Jev/N.

I know what you mean 35k+ doesn't mean a lot if you're working a 70hr week.

I'd be interested in hearing opinions on each of the firms as places to work as well as the salaries.

I've heard from people who did the A&L internship that they a seemed good to work for. Think their pay is at the lower end. But I'd prefer a place with a better culture and training.

This is assuming I even get my foot in the door of any of them!

Procrastastudy · 11-03-2012 5:00pm

If Ireland starts to come inline with the UK expect £40K sterling to be a good wage based on a 50/60 hour week! Let hope it doesn't

NoQuarter · 11-03-2012 5:10pm

hopefull legal, come back and ask if you manage to secure an internship, at least that way you will be in with a good chance of getting a traineeship! If you cant get the internships, you will need more than luck to get into the firms!

impr0v · 11-03-2012 5:16pm

The above salaries are all trainee salaries, rather than starting salaries for newly-qualified lawyers. The big five paid in or about 50k to new qualifiers, last I heard.

hopefullegal · 11-03-2012 7:31pm

NoQuarter just want to have all the info so I'm fully informed

. Seeing if the pay differential between London (which is completely transparent in salary info for trainees and NQs on rollonfriday.co.uk) and Dublin (which has zero transparency on a firm by firm basis) means I should focus all my efforts on London.

Impr0v I've actually heard from fairly reliable sources that NQs are 60-65k. I could be wrong though!

It would be great to put together a comprehensive list of starting and NQ salaries here. Information is power and all that! No idea why the Dublin firms are so secretive...

josephotoole91 · 12-03-2012 7:20pm

A&L was €35,000 in 2010 according to a friend who got a TC. Could be more or less now.

FreudianSlippers · 12-03-2012 9:53pm

Should have become a solicitor :eek:

On a serious note: do the "boutique firms" pay more or less than the big 5? I've always wondered what the draw is from the big 5 (other than it looking good on your CV and likely very good basic training).

mitzicat · 12-03-2012 10:30pm

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

If Ireland starts to come inline with the UK expect £40K sterling to be a good wage based on a 50/60 hour week! Let hope it doesn't

being from a private college GCD, have you tried/been successful for internships?

johnnyskeleton · 12-03-2012 11:33pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

On a serious note: do the "boutique firms" pay more or less than the big 5? I've always wondered what the draw is from the big 5 (other than it looking good on your CV and likely very good basic training).

So, let's recap: other than the higher salaries, the prestiege on your cv and the top class training, there really is no other reason to choose the big firms over small firms.

FreudianSlippers · 12-03-2012 11:37pm

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

So, let's recap: other than the higher salaries, the prestiege on your cv and the top class training, there really is no other reason to choose the big firms over small firms.

Excellent recap of my question, I must say. What is the pay comparison? Presumably you can get excellent training in smaller firms and it's not exclusive to the big 5?

EDIT: sorry that's way more snarky sounding than I meant it :P If pay is consistent and training is consistent, is the only draw the prestige?

Procrastastudy · 13-03-2012 12:18am

mitzicat wrote: »

being from a private college GCD, have you tried/been successful for internships?

I'm planning on going down the Barrister route - so my contact making is slightly different. I did have an intership sorted in Ghana of all places but I managed to do my back and had to defer a couple of exams so I'm stuck in Ireland for the summer. (Heading off next year though!) Have to admit this was more for the experiance of Ghana than of working for a lawyers firm. It's rather an odd setup there; you wear your suit to work and you are a solicitor - you then stick your wig on and head into court as a barrister.

Digression aside I dont think I'd stand much chance I just don't have the interest in the solicitor route - although some of the posts ref NQ salaries are tempting :P I'm also 32 so I think I might be a bit past in regards to someone they can mold the way they want!

impr0v · 13-03-2012 12:19am

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

EDIT: sorry that's way more snarky sounding than I meant it :P If pay is consistent and training is consistent, is the only draw the prestige?

On-site canteens.

More seriously, there are one or two mid-size firms that buck the trend but pay is generally better in the big five. There is generally more prestige work for bigger clients, and facilities are usually better. More opportunity to specialise. Training is, I would imagine but don't know for sure, significantly better - the smaller firms can't afford to dedicate the same resources to trainee programs.

There are obviously downsides to big-firm life too.

hopefullegal · 13-03-2012 12:29am

Is A&L still 35k?

Sangre · 13-03-2012 12:39am

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

If Ireland starts to come inline with the UK expect £40K sterling to be a good wage based on a 50/60 hour week! Let hope it doesn't

Not if you move to a decent City firm. Any young solicitor/NQ I know who has moved to has done so for a salary far in excess of that.

hopefullegal wrote: »

Impr0v I've actually heard from fairly reliable sources that NQs are 60-65k. I could be wrong though!

About 10k lower for the top 5. Somewhere like Maples might pay that though.

Edit: I wouldn't focus on trainee salary too much. Make sure you look at NQ salary as well. Don't be afraid to ask this if you've any offers. Its hard to difference the big firms but a couple of grand over the course of your training contract isn't something to worry about too much.

DaleWinton · 13-03-2012 2:19am

I know who the Big 5 are but always wondered how do they rank within that 5.

I'm guessing number one is Arthur Cox and number 5 is William Fry but out of A&L, McCanns and Mops who would be seen as 3rd, 4th and 5th?

Blackrockcomet · 13-03-2012 3:35am

It's very difficult to rank the big 5 as who's no.1 depends on which area you choose. A&L Goodbody have a superior funds team to the other 4 but MOP's tax department would be regarded as better. I believe that McCann Fitz might be the biggest firm based on personnel but I could be wrong.

NoQuarter · 13-03-2012 9:09am

Blackrockcomet wrote: »

It's very difficult to rank the big 5 as who's no.1 depends on which area you choose. A&L Goodbody have a superior funds team to the other 4 but MOP's tax department would be regarded as better. I believe that McCann Fitz might be the biggest firm based on personnel but I could be wrong.

I assume he meant arrange by salary, what with the thread thats in it!

johnnyskeleton · 13-03-2012 4:09pm

FreudianSlippers wrote:

Excellent recap of my question, I must say. What is the pay comparison? Presumably you can get excellent training in smaller firms and it's not exclusive to the big 5?

I don't think there is much dispute that the top five firms and a few medium sized boutique operations pay far better than smaller firms. If 35k is the going rate for the big firms, nothing or the law society minimum seems de regiour for small firms.

As to the quality of training, of course you can get excellent, perhaps better training in a small firm than in a large firm, but that in a sense is missing the point - the perception is that the big firms provide better training and that is a big draw. The perception, albeit not the reality, is that having worked on a €100m, 500 page contract for a complex lease that a residential conveyance should be easy, or that working on a massive commercial litigation file makes a circuit court dispute seem easy. They are differet skills and both require different training - indeed the training provided by a top 5 firm could be useless in a general practice. But the perception is that the training is better, and I suppose there is less liklihood of being a glorified legal secretary in a larger firm.

EDIT: sorry that's way more snarky sounding than I meant it :P If pay is consistent and training is consistent, is the only draw the prestige?

Possibly, but that's a bit like speculating that if a barristers chambers had an equal admissions policy and paid a liveable wage to new entrants, wouldn't it be a good thing for new entrants. Of course it would, but that assumption is not a partiularly good reason to be in favour of a chambers system. So too it is unwise to assume pay and training are the same in big firms and small firms, leadig to the conclusion that there is little attraction for the big firms.

FreudianSlippers · 13-03-2012 4:43pm

I suppose my logic (personally) would be, get into a medium boutique firm where you can get more personal training and good money rather than be another faceless newbie.

Point taken about being a glorified legal secretary though.

johnnyskeleton · 13-03-2012 5:16pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I suppose my logic (personally) would be, get into a medium boutique firm where you can get more personal training and good money rather than be another faceless newbie.

Well yes, I mean the ideal would be to work in a firm that is not so big that you are a faceless work drone but not so small that you are pigeon holed into one area, where there is sufficient responsibility given to you to be able to learn fully with the security of an overseeing partner to make sure nothing goes wrong, top dollar without massive hours and nice friendly co-workers and a subsidised canteen.

However, from what can be pieced together from these threads in boards alone, that is very far from most people's experience of entering the legal profession. Moreover, this is very far removed from the historical reality too. It isn't all that long since securing a fee-paying apprenticeship (that is, you pay the solicitor-master and you work for them for free) was quite a hard thing to do, and securing a non-fee-paying or even a paid apprenticeship was the preserve of a select few firms.

blueythebear · 14-03-2012 12:28am

Having spoken to people who have apprenticed in big firms and small firms, I would say that although there are pros and cons to each.

In the big firms, you have the high wages and good likelihood of having a well paid job if you're kept on (which is MUCH more likely in a big firm, e.g. top 5 firms kept about 50% of their trainees this year). THe level of training is apparently hit and miss though depending on the particular partner in each rotation and as well as that, you do not get much in the way of responsibility. Also, there is very often a culture of staying late in the Office even if there is nothing to do. I know people who have stayed in the Office till 11 and 12 just because they didn't want to be the first to leave the Office. An extreme example, but indicative of the culture that is present in some firms.

In the smaller firms, you'll generally get alot more responsibility in terms of running your own files and meeting clients, etc. and you'll be expected to be able to do alot more on your own initiative. Downside is the pay and the fact that your Blackhall fees probably won't be paid. Also, when you qualify, it'll be very difficult to get a job in anything other than a small firm, who generally don't hire that often and certainly not newly qualifieds.

krd · 15-03-2012 5:44pm

blueythebear wrote: »

I know people who have stayed in the Office till 11 and 12 just because they didn't want to be the first to leave the Office. An extreme example, but indicative of the culture that is present in some firms.

It's called a "face time" culture. And it's fools gold to work for any firm who do it. When you breakdown how much you're being paid, it could be in and around minimum wage.

10 to 20 hours or real work in a week. And then 50 of pure arse kissing.

These firms also have a habit of chewing people up and spitting them out really quickly. They sack people for the sake of it. You have to survive on your "social skills" (ability to kiss ass, and not seem a threat to whoever the nearby psychopaths are). The descriptions of these places I've heard are awful. Everyone is terrified they're about to be sacked. Everyone is "working" excessive hours. They're more like religious cults with psychopathic leaders.

And I wouldn't believe talk of 50 or 60 thousand. These firms pay the minimum possible. People tend to exaggerate.

Of course. If you're pompous, psychopathic, like working practice that are so restrictive it's worse than prison, and that you have to spend all your time socialising with the pompous psychopaths you work with or risk getting the sack, then.....Maybe the big firm is the kind of place that would suit you down to the ground.

All that glitters, is not gold.

Procrastastudy · 15-03-2012 5:51pm

krd wrote: »

It's called a "face time" culture. And it's fools gold to work for any firm who do it. When you breakdown how much you're being paid, it could be in and around minimum wage.

10 to 20 hours or real work in a week. And then 50 of pure arse kissing.

These firms also have a habit of chewing people up and spitting them out really quickly. They sack people for the sake of it. You have to survive on your "social skills" (ability to kiss ass, and not seem a threat to whoever the nearby psychopaths are). The descriptions of these places I've heard are awful. Everyone is terrified they're about to be sacked. Everyone is "working" excessive hours. They're more like religious cults with psychopathic leaders.

And I wouldn't believe talk of 50 or 60 thousand. These firms pay the minimum possible. People tend to exaggerate.

Of course. If you're pompous, psychopathic, like working practice that are so restrictive it's worse than prison, and that you have to spend all your time socialising with the pompous psychopaths you work with or risk getting the sack, then.....Maybe the big firm is the kind of place that would suit you down to the ground.

All that glitters, is not gold.

Sounds like most work places outside of the Public Sector to me :P The only difference in the PS is shorter hours to be fair!

Strawberry Fields · 15-03-2012 5:57pm

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Sounds like most work places outside of the Public Sector to me :P The only difference in the PS is shorter hours to be fair!

For most of that I thought he was talking about financial services, same game.

krd · 15-03-2012 6:29pm

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Sounds like most work places outside of the Public Sector to me :P The only difference in the PS is shorter hours to be fair!

The private sector varies greatly. Some places if your well in, you can turn up at 11 and leave by 4 - and if you're well out in the same places they'll expect you to work the sh1ttiest hours, on the sh1ttiest days.

There are some "face time" tricks to make it look like you're there when you're not.

1. Switch off the screen saver on your computer.
2. Put a jacket over your seat.
3. Leave a set of your car keys on the desk - or at least a set of car keys.

Make it look like you're there when you're not.

I've heard, that for the big firm law stuff in London. All of the stuff is boiler plate. They just red pen through what is and isn't applicable. And the rest of the time is purely bollox "face time" - ass kissing clients - looking smort in a smort suit. Etc.

The firms sack people for the sake of sacking them, because it gives a little share price bump to announce and execute "cost cutting" - doesn't matter they hire replacements nearly straight away - blood letting for the sake of blood letting seems to give the "water voles" of the market a hard on.

And I've heard too, that even the big firms think their own lawyers are sh1te, and hire in the small firms to do the niggly bits.

xoxyx · 15-03-2012 9:50pm

Just to elaborate on a point made earlier on about the top 5: the salaries may be higher, but the salary : hours worked ratio may be a hell of a lot lower. Having worked in one of the topper of the top 5, I remember a NQ calculating that he was earning lower than minimum wage - the number of hours he worked vs. his yearly salary had him coming out with just over €7.50 p/h. (Can't remember exactly, but his charge out rate at the time was approx. €220 p/h.) While it does depend on the department you get into, my experience is that 8am - 10pm two or three months in a row is not unusual. You can forget about work/life balance - work/work balance is a hard enough trick to manage and, realistically - if you really want to make a mark and move up through the ranks quickly - that's not going to change for at least 5 - 7 years.

In saying that, you would not believe the clout that, firstly, being accepted in a top 5 law firm, and, secondly, being kept on will give you. I think of it as The Devil Wears Prada" period. A few years of working in a big firm may kick start your career in a huge way, even if you decide not to stay on, as long as you leave on good terms.

A bonus for trainees getting into a top firm (that hasn't been mentioned) is the amount of support they get. I never know how trainees do it when they work in small offices without many, if any, peers. Guaranteed that in a big firm you'll have people in the same boat as you and people who did it all a year before, and there tends to be a huge support network.

I've seen this all from a good few angles and this stage, and I'd just say to be wary of considering jobs based on how much you'll get paid for them, without considering how much they might take from you. While times have changed, you can still qualify and earn pots of money - but the top firms aren't successful because they pay so much. They are well versed in utilising the top talent that they hire to their full extent and they will ensure that you earn your every cent that you make.

But, with that cheerful note, I wish you the best of luck! There are still plenty of opportunities out there, but make sure you think of yourself along the way!!

krd · 15-03-2012 10:41pm

xoxyx wrote: »

In saying that, you would not believe the clout that, firstly, being accepted in a top 5 law firm, and, secondly, being kept on will give you. I think of it as The Devil Wears Prada" period. A few years of working in a big firm may kick start your career in a huge way, even if you decide not to stay on, as long as you leave on good terms.

Yes.."good terms"...........Bad terms is having the wrong psychopath on your tail. And they can come after you, and get their rat faced little helpers, after you for a very long time.

A bonus for trainees getting into a top firm (that hasn't been mentioned) is the amount of support they get. I never know how trainees do it when they work in small offices without many, if any, peers. Guaranteed that in a big firm you'll have people in the same boat as you and people who did it all a year before, and there tends to be a huge support network.

The "huge support network" is the rest of the religious cult. Work hard and don't complain....There's a slice of that pie in the sky, just as long as you hold out long enough. Don't complain....keep that vacant look on your face, along with that waxy joyless perma smile.

I've seen this all from a good few angles and this stage, and I'd just say to be wary of considering jobs based on how much you'll get paid for them, without considering how much they might take from you. While times have changed, you can still qualify and earn pots of money

Yes...."pots of money" just at the end of that rainbow.....Have some Koolaid kiddo....the money wagon is comin' just around the corner. Chooo Chooo

- but the top firms aren't successful because they pay so much.

Why are they so "successful"?............If they don't pay so much.......I mean on this thread, they were making out people could start on 50, 60 thousand....if they don't pay so much, why are people saying things like that.

No one is starting on 50 to 60k.....NO FCUKING ONE.....

They are well versed in utilising the top talent that they hire to their full extent and they will ensure that you earn your every cent that you make.

They bleed you f'ing dry........And what makes you think you're so "talented"?..because they told you so...because they gave you a little money - and it was a little money. Are any of these people extraordinarily talented in any way really - and I don't mean they won a running and jumping medal somewhere before starting work for the firm.

"I'm talented...I look the business in a suit....I put in "face time"....the people I work with are my "support network"...They're my "friends".......They'd never stick a knife in my back.....Just as long as I'm careful enough not to upset anyone and keep "fitting in".....And it's nothing like being in a George Orwell novel.... nothing at all like that....I'm a free person...In the free market....hurrah for Aviva Stadium, rugby and the free market....nothing at all like the Soviet Union....nothing at all like that"

But, with that cheerful note, I wish you the best of luck! There are still plenty of opportunities out there, but make sure you think of yourself along the way!!

Yes....Indeed......Keep looking after Number 1

hopefullegal · 15-03-2012 11:08pm

Krd there's nothing wrong with making legitimate criticism of the top 5 firms. But tone down the language a bit.

Out of interest were you a trainee in one yourself once?

Oh and I don't think anyone was suggesting that any trainees are starting on 50/60k.

xoxyx · 15-03-2012 11:13pm

krd wrote: »

Good points.

Totally know where you're coming from in addressing everything I said. After all, I said all those things in a cautionary spirit. For example:

krd wrote: »

Yes.."good terms"...........Bad terms is having the wrong psychopath on your tail. And they can come after you, and get their rat faced little helpers, after you for a very long time.

This is true. I saw one associate leave the firm after four years' PQ experience and she found it very hard to get another job. She is extremely bright and good at her job, but she didn't fit into the mentality being an earthy person concerned with reducing air miles and eating organic 'cause it's good for the planet (not 'cause it's good for your image / skin). The legal circle in Ireland is a small one, and lots of people are friends with people who will block you if you piss them off. (That's in an extreme enough case - but happens to people who join top firms and leave on bad terms.)

However, it's not all as bad as you make out.

xoxyx wrote: »

A bonus for trainees getting into a top firm (that hasn't been mentioned) is the amount of support they get. I never know how trainees do it when they work in small offices without many, if any, peers. Guaranteed that in a big firm you'll have people in the same boat as you and people who did it all a year before, and there tends to be a huge support network.

krd wrote: »

The "huge support network" is the rest of the religious cult. Work hard and don't complain....There's a slice of that pie in the sky, just as long as you hold out long enough. Don't complain....keep that vacant look on your face, along with that waxy joyless perma smile.

That's not a good way to look at things. The "huge support network" is comprised, mostly, of trainees. They may be well on the way to joining "the cult", but they're not there yet. And believe me, they complain a-plenty. This is a period where they (IMO) should be soaking up everything they can get -- but, if they're not at a stage where they can distinguish between a job that will work for them and a job that they can work for, then this is a fault of their education.

xoxyx wrote: »

I've seen this all from a good few angles and this stage, and I'd just say to be wary of considering jobs based on how much you'll get paid for them, without considering how much they might take from you. While times have changed, you can still qualify and earn pots of money

krd wrote: »

Yes...."pots of money" just at the end of that rainbow.....Have some Koolaid kiddo....the money wagon is comin' just around the corner. Chooo Chooo

Yes "pots of money". And I used that phrase deliberately. The point I was making is that there still is an opportunity to make many monies. It's harder than it once was - but it's still there. NQS still may propel themselves into high salaried positions if they think outside the box and work hard (I see it all the time as the Top 10 have been hiring for the past year and a half and then some and there are some serious opportunities for promotion in the lower 5).

Those are the points I feel I can address. While I agree with some of your sentiment, I think you're going a bit too far and you are amplifying arguments that have already been made without any grounding.

Jev/N · 16-03-2012 12:26am

krd wrote: »

Rabble

Seriously, who pissed in your Cornflakes this morning?

Thirdfox · 16-03-2012 12:02pm

krd wrote: »

It's called a "face time" culture. And it's fools gold to work for any firm who do it. When you breakdown how much you're being paid, it could be in and around minimum wage.

10 to 20 hours or real work in a week. And then 50 of pure arse kissing.

These firms also have a habit of chewing people up and spitting them out really quickly. They sack people for the sake of it. You have to survive on your "social skills" (ability to kiss ass, and not seem a threat to whoever the nearby psychopaths are). The descriptions of these places I've heard are awful. Everyone is terrified they're about to be sacked. Everyone is "working" excessive hours. They're more like religious cults with psychopathic leaders.

And I wouldn't believe talk of 50 or 60 thousand. These firms pay the minimum possible. People tend to exaggerate.

Of course. If you're pompous, psychopathic, like working practice that are so restrictive it's worse than prison, and that you have to spend all your time socialising with the pompous psychopaths you work with or risk getting the sack, then.....Maybe the big firm is the kind of place that would suit you down to the ground.

All that glitters, is not gold.

At one point I was working around 70 billable hours a week (so probably spending around 90 hours over 6 days). Was it hell? Not really, it was a lot of work but I enjoyed the big case.

I find it offensive that you would say that people who work long hours are there for the "arse-kissing" or that that's all that's needed to survive/thrive.

I genuinely enjoy working with the team and department, we get to look at huge deals that affect the country and the partners/associates/trainees who work alongside me/who I work for are all dedicated and knowledgeable professionals. You may be there till 12 but hey, the job needs to be done.

Certainly, if you don't enjoy the legal work you shouldn't be in one of these firms. But if you don't enjoy legal work you probably shouldn't be working in the legal industry.

Yes you can get huge hours, you may be limited in time for other things, but it is a choice and many of my fellow trainees were able to leave at reasonable hours (6ish). It depends on departments and whether it's the peak season or not. I did not encounter one person who was simply in the office for the sake of being there, rather than being there to do a job.

Some benefits of working long days:
1. you appreciate the weekends and holidays more
2. you get to save a lot of money since you're in the office all day

So, in conclusion - big 5 isn't for everyone, do try and get an internship to see if it's for you. Some people get a buzz off closing a multi-million euro deal at 5am in the morning. Horses for courses

But I don't think it's fair to paint a picture of the firms as being a backstabbing political game of sorts. People don't get far by being unprofessional and hard work is rewarded. Face-time amounts for little if you have no substance to back it up.

mitzicat · 16-03-2012 12:09pm

Thirdfox wrote: »

At one point I was working around 70 billable hours a week (so probably spending around 90 hours over 6 days). Was it hell? Not really, it was a lot of work but I enjoyed the big case.

I find it offensive that you would say that people who work long hours are there for the "arse-kissing" or that that's all that's needed to survive/thrive.

I genuinely enjoy working with the team and department, we get to look at huge deals that affect the country and the partners/associates/trainees who work alongside me/who I work for are all dedicated and knowledgeable professionals. You may be there till 12 but hey, the job needs to be done.

Certainly, if you don't enjoy the legal work you shouldn't be in one of these firms. But if you don't enjoy legal work you probably shouldn't be working in the legal industry.

Yes you can get huge hours, you may be limited in time for other things, but it is a choice and many of my fellow trainees were able to leave at reasonable hours (6ish). It depends on departments and whether it's the peak season or not. I did not encounter one person who was simply in the office for the sake of being there, rather than being there to do a job.

Some benefits of working long days:
1. you appreciate the weekends and holidays more
2. you get to save a lot of money since you're in the office all day

So, in conclusion - big 5 isn't for everyone, do try and get an internship to see if it's for you. Some people get a buzz off closing a multi-million euro deal at 5am in the morning. Horses for courses

But I don't think it's fair to paint a picture of the firms as being a backstabbing political game of sorts. People don't get far by being unprofessional and hard work is rewarded. Face-time amounts for little if you have no substance to back it up.

Agreed. That's the way it is in any billable industry. People have a modicum of intelligence know that being able to bill 70 hours in a week is excellent, business is good. It's how you make your money, or, if a lowly trainee/newly qualified, show you are essential. People who complain about poor work/life balance at the beginning of a law career should find a new profession. I fear some of this is chalked up to young people who were coddled by their mammies and now can't hack it in the real world.

McCrack · 16-03-2012 12:13pm

Thirdfox out of interest what is a typical length of day for the various levels (trainee, associate and partner) in a big firm? I have always and continue to work in small practices so I have really no idea. I have certainly heard anecdotally from colleagues that there are often 5 am finishes in these places and back in again for 9 or 10 am.

johnfás · 16-03-2012 12:30pm

McCrack wrote: »

Thirdfox out of interest what is a typical length of day for the various levels (trainee, associate and partner) in a big firm? I have always and continue to work in small practices so I have really no idea. I have certainly heard anecdotally from colleagues that there are often 5 am finishes in these places and back in again for 9 or 10 am.

I generally work about 8:30 - about 6:30. Obviously in the waves and troughs that can vary a bit. 5am finishes do exist, but are rarities generally caused by something unforeseen. You might get a week of them and then not experience it again for 9 months. Obviously periodically you are in until after 10 if there is a major issue that has arisen. The FaceTime argument is pure nonsense.

shaneybaby · 16-03-2012 12:43pm

mitzicat wrote: »

Agreed. That's the way it is in any billable industry. People have a modicum of intelligence know that being able to bill 70 hours in a week is excellent, business is good. It's how you make your money, or, if a lowly trainee/newly qualified, show you are essential. People who complain about poor work/life balance at the beginning of a law career should find a new profession. I fear some of this is chalked up to young people who were coddled by their mammies and now can't hack it in the real world.

While I agree with the sentence before it i'm not sure the last part is quite fair. Just because you work 70/80 hours a week every week doesn't make you someone who can 'hack it'. There's nothing macho about spending your entire 20's and/or 30's being involved in big deals and shiney offices.

I realised a little too late how doing those hours can affect your life, relationships and your health. I'm not some hippy sh1t who thinks we should all be out working the fields and feeding butterflys and i still run a decent time on a mile but there HAS to be a work life balance. I saw it in the last industry i worked where 70 hour weeks were the norm, great money nice offices, the works. i saw the divorces and mental breakdowns that went with it when things started to catch up on people. Yup i made enough cash to last me and maybe for some people that money is enough reward. Enjoy the cut and trust of being in a commercial firm (like me;) but make sure the rest of it doesn't pass you by (unlike me;)

(Maybe i'm having a epiphany like yer man in Goldman Sachs or something;)

Thirdfox · 16-03-2012 1:21pm

McCrack wrote: »

Thirdfox out of interest what is a typical length of day for the various levels (trainee, associate and partner) in a big firm? I have always and continue to work in small practices so I have really no idea. I have certainly heard anecdotally from colleagues that there are often 5 am finishes in these places and back in again for 9 or 10 am.

johnfás wrote: »

I generally work about 8:30 - about 6:30. Obviously in the waves and troughs that can vary a bit. 5am finishes do exist, but are rarities generally caused by something unforeseen. You might get a week of them and then not experience it again for 9 months. Obviously periodically you are in until after 10 if there is a major issue that has arisen. The FaceTime argument is pure nonsense.

Sounds about right - I'd be getting out at 7 but only start at 9 so quite similar to Johnfas there.

As for partners/associates it really depends. You have those who burn the midnight oil (i.e. still there when I'm gone at 11) and those who encourage us to leave at 6 when they're gone too.

I've never had a 5am finish but one trainee did. So it is rare - it's only at the end of big cases when, like johnfas says, something pops up that must be dealt with before the deal is signed at 9 the next morning etc.

Oh and another "benefit" of working long hours - you never notice any traffic on the roads

I remember finishing work at 5:30 one day and getting on a jam-packed bus, felt so strange :P

As for work/life balance - I think it's a situation where you work hard and play harder. People are still involved in their sports teams here and can even be given time off to compete.

That's another benefit of working in the big 5 - generally your fellow trainees will be exceptional people in many fields, academia, sporting, etc.

Would I work 70 hours a week non-stop? Nope - that's why I didn't go to New York or London. It's definitely more manageable over here. That's where my conscious work/life balance decision was made -

"I could get 180,000 dollars a year plus bonuses in NY and slave away for 12 months 70-80 hours a week or get a lot less money, but also have free time to enjoy for myself while still doing "big" work that I'll find challenging and enjoyable".

hopefullegal · 16-03-2012 1:50pm

Thanks a lot for all the info guys. Seems that if you love what you do you don't mind the hours. Friends have said, like you have, that hours are dependent on the department, your partner, and the time of year.

Out of interest was one of the earlier posters correct when he/she said that NQ in the Big 5 are normally on 50k? It's much lower than the figures I've heard anecdotally. NQs in London seem to be on at least 60k sterling straight away.

Also I don't understand fully how your career progresses in the firms. Is it 3yrs trainee, a few yrs qualified, then a few yrs as a senior associate, and eventually if you're lucky, partner?

johnfás · 16-03-2012 1:58pm

hopefullegal wrote: »

Thanks a lot for all the info guys. Seems that if you love what you do you don't mind the hours. Friends have said, like you have, that hours are dependent on the department, your partner, and the time of year.

Out of interest was one of the earlier posters correct when he/she said that NQ in the Big 5 are normally on 50k? It's much lower than the figures I've heard anecdotally. NQs in London seem to be on at least 60k sterling straight away.

Also I don't understand fully how your career progresses in the firms. Is it 3yrs trainee, a few yrs qualified, then a few yrs as a senior associate, and eventually if you're lucky, partner?

There's no point comparing qualified salaries to London - its a different market. The cost of living in London will of course eat up alot of the difference too.

And yes, your training contract is generally 2.5-3 years. Look at bright water salary survey for salary projections.

josephotoole91 · 16-03-2012 2:22pm

Sorry to disappoint you hopefullegal but the bridge water salary survey for 2012 has the BEST paid NQ in Dublin on €47,000 pa. The highest paid partners are on €180,000. If that's not enough for you it's London or NYC for the big bucks! There are no partners on a mil a year here.

Thirdfox · 16-03-2012 4:22pm

I assume those are the salaried partners and not the equity ones. Equity partners can earn a lot more - though to get to the very top takes some doing!

purpleglory · 16-03-2012 4:42pm

That 180k figure must relate to salaried partners and even then it sounds quite low to me. Equity partners in some of the top 5 would be clearing a lot more than 180k after tax nevermind before tax

josephotoole91 · 16-03-2012 5:05pm

I seriously doubt there are partners in the Big 5 firms earning more than 180,000 after tax. That would mean 400,000 gross at least which seems unrealistic.

Also most NQs in the Big 5 would be on 45,000 max.

purpleglory · 16-03-2012 5:12pm

Those figures are just wrong. 45k max implies that after 3 years training some of the NQs are getting 7k more a year than they were before they went to blackhall. They are circa 55k and can be slightly more.

Sure some of the trainees in blackhall are on about 45k.

josephotoole91 · 16-03-2012 5:25pm

What firm pays trainees more than €40,000? I think most are still at €35,000 at the most after the pay cuts nearly all the big 5 imposed after the crash. Do you actually know personally of any trainee on more than that?

As many posters have said pay inc bonuses is in the mid to maybe at a stretch high forties. Unless you know the mythical NQ on €60,000 in Dublin

purpleglory · 16-03-2012 5:45pm

Maples pay at least 40k and more if what I hear is correct. I personally know of people on more than 35k and am myself as a trainee with one of the Big 5. All of these cuts in the crash have mostly been done away with by the firms and salaries have gone back up in the last couple of years. Not trying to get into an argument here but your figures are on the lowside

Law Firm Big 5 Salaries 2012

Comments