Good discipline.What is it?

We are human beings not Valium fueled Emotional sponges. I think we as teachers tolerate too much in the classrooms. Health and welfare legislation applies to us. We act as if it doesnt. If you were in a workplace and a colleague/subordinate flung something at you-what would happen? If this was a second or third incident . (Everyone can have a once off). You would not be permitted back in the work place on Health and welfare grounds. An evaluation (psychological) would be insisted upon. Believe it or not-all we can do is ask for a psych report!
Contrast what happens in schools?
What if in your workplace you had a small cohort who slowed down work by say 20%? What would happen? Im under no illusions about how difficult it is to fire people but there are ways. I do accept that under 15 -you should bend over backwards to keep kids in but Im scratching my head as to why we have to put up with molly coddling at senior level?

But the Key thing for discipline in schools is to have a good Principal and in my experience they remove their bxxxx before they take the job. Mostly.

Armelodie wrote: »

@? I don't think its that simple.

Its not the same as any normal workplace... you are in loco parentis to the children... would parents at home put their child out on the street for misbehaviour. Shouldn't the school be a mirror of society? Exclusion into the prison system hasn't really got us anywhere. I heard today that 6/10 of children who have a parent in prison wind up in prison themselves.

Does the student have a learning problem or does the teacher have a teaching problem?

It is our workplace. Age of criminal consent is 10 ie you can be charged with a crime because you know right from wrong. The Health and Welfare act applies in school. You cant just park it. All laws apply in schools. We excuse atrocious behavior by pretending its not a workplace. Im not sure where you got-the send pupils home? I never advocated that by Principals, You obviously have a process. Its not instantaneous
I also think its quite a leap to relate people going to prison and expulsions. A tiny % of students expelled end up in prison. Taking away your freedom or telling you you cant go to a particular school are worlds apart.

Excluding kids is a last resort but it has to be done. They other kids who are willing to behave-deserve an Education not their teachers spending ten minutes trying to get x to do straight forward tasks. The expelled kid has rights too-but not unlimited, Its up to the state to provide back up for these kids but failing that-its up to the school to educate the overwhelming majority who want to work and remove out those who dont. Not all dossers-just those who wont work and want to stop others from working.
If I was a decent kid having my education destroyed by bad behavior-what would you say to me?

The local Parentis argument is weak. Teachers and parental roles are not interchangeable. There is some over lap but not all that much. I deal with 25 plus for a start. They deal with what 2? So My role will allow me to do stuff a parent cant because of numbers etc and same for a parent

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

It is our workplace. Age of criminal consent is 10 ie you can be charged with a crime because you know right from wrong. The Health and Welfare act applies in school. You cant just park it. All laws apply in schools. We excuse atrocious behavior by pretending its not a workplace. Im not sure where you got-the send pupils home? I never advocated that by Principals, You obviously have a process. Its not instantaneous
I also think its quite a leap to relate people going to prison and expulsions. A tiny % of students expelled end up in prison. Taking away your freedom or telling you you cant go to a particular school are worlds apart.

Excluding kids is a last resort but it has to be done. They other kids who are willing to behave-deserve an Education not their teachers spending ten minutes trying to get x to do straight forward tasks. The expelled kid has rights too-but not unlimited, Its up to the state to provide back up for these kids but failing that-its up to the school to educate the overwhelming majority who want to work and remove out those who dont. Not all dossers-just those who wont work and want to stop others from working.
If I was a decent kid having my education destroyed by bad behavior-what would you say to me?

The local Parentis argument is weak. Teachers and parental roles are not interchangeable. There is some over lap but not all that much. I deal with 25 plus for a start. They deal with what 2? So My role will allow me to do stuff a parent cant because of numbers etc and same for a parent

Well essentially I would take the view that the 'workplace' arguement is weaker than the loco parentis arguement. In saying all that though I've never been physically threatened and I think I manage to get those who are interested onto the next stage!

Well ok then lets follow the logic of the said emboldened statement and broaden it a bit..
If I was a decent kid having my education destroyed by someone with a Special Educational Need (adhd or a disruptive form of Autism) that took a lot of a teachers time ..would it be proper to have this student removed 'for the greater good'?

I think lately the terminology has changed from 'challenging behaviour' to 'behaviour that challanges'... As I said, is it the learning problem or the teaching problem that should be addressed? Sure there is a process and a code of behaviour in every school but isn't it incumbent on us to question what triggered the behaviour, what makes a student act out in one particular class. As we all know, most days we chose our battles to some extent, so we dont blindly follow every single rule. I think if you are dealing with kids its not quite the same as dealing with adults. There's always other developmental factors at play.

I think under 15/16 you must be careful about expulsions but that doesnt mean it should not happen. However at 17/18 if you are still acting up then I tend to agree with expulsion. The majority have rights. No students right to an education is unlimited and I have seen kids despair over having to be in a class where a good third of the time is taken up with clowns. I have seen their grades go down because they cant get attention because Johnny rotten wastes so much time.
You always look for ways to instill behavior and discipline but in 5th and 6th year in most schools (not middle class areas) there are at least ten toe rags running circles around a system. Some of these kids do have special needs but even in those cases I have seen them turn on/off the special need when it suits. Im really talking about ADHD.

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

The vast majority of students dont have special need or autism for that matter.

Exactly my point... the vast majority of pupils don't misbehave either.

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

The vast majority of disruptive puipls dont have special needs. I never put that in my question nor was it implied.

Yes you never implied it... however.. as I said following on from your emboldened statement "If I was a decent kid having my education destroyed by bad behavior-what would you say to me?"
What would you say to the same kid who was having their education destroyed by another 'demanding' student who requires a lot of personal teacher time.

What would you seek to do with this 'disruptive' student? You may indeed argue that the two situations require or deserve different strategies. But as I questioned earlier.. 'Does the student have a learning problem or do you have the teaching problem'. In the case of the student with an SEN I'm sure you would do your best to seek out help and try new strategies or maybe ask a few colleagues how they include the student better within the lesson. Why then is it the first port of call to blame the misbehaving student rather than question our own teaching approaches. As I have posed the question earlier.. why do some students chose to act out in our classes but wouldn't look sideways in another class.

If you say it is a 'management' issue of non-support ( or 'loosing their ba&&s' as you put it')... Shouldn't it be also a whole school approach with all teachers involved.

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

True-its worth exploring the causes of disruption but we are in a chronically underfunded system. I would love to send many kids to a psychologist but you know and I know there is feck all access.

It's worth exploring the causes of disruption because we are in a chronically underfunded system. Notice your next sentence pointed the solution towards the 'outsourcing approach' i.e. sending the kid to a psychologist. I agree that class size is a factor (probably the msot limiting factor these days)... however if you take it to the other extreme and you had, say, a class of 5 pupils (we can dream!) with one disruptive kid. I bet you and I would do a heck of a lot more talking and discussing with that 1 pupil to get to the root of the misbehaviour. Back to the current extreme of a class of 30.. why should we act differently towards that one student who disrupts the class.. just because of class size?

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

So I dont regard my question as answered. Many kids disrupt for the sheer joy of it-knowing the " only kids" attitude will see them safely in the system. They often will get jobs where they know this behavior would not be tolerated. Bleeding hearts want inclusion of disruptive pupils at the cost of the majority. Same bleeding hearts wont fund system properly. The Minority do not have the right to disrupt the majority. Despite bending over backwards-many will continue to act the clown . You know in your heart that you and I would be making much more progress without the clowns. You can be an acrobat in class and they will still disrupt. In fact group work allows them to let rip. They want to entertained and the new Jc seems to give into that attitude. If only life was always entertaining!
True-its not the same as dealing with Adults but the line of accepting poor behavior has shifted too much., Too many bleeding hearts -who are safely not teaching or in middle class schools are propagating this false inclusion.
Though I respect your opinions and dont count you as a bleeding heart.

I totally agree that the new 'sexy' JC is pushing for more edutainement where it'll be all singing and dancing without the foundations (or boring stuff) that just has to be learned off by rote. The more we pander to this the more the student expects to be entertained rather than educated.
I know only too well that there are a few students who do act out for the sheer fun of it, but I always have to ask if it's just my class (why is this) or if it's in all classes... is this a cue for all teachers to get together, surely someone must have an idea! We're stuck with these students whether we like it or not.