Once saved always saved is a false doctrine..

J C · 09-11-2007 8:55pm

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Eternal security implies a 'license' to sin without consequences, Eternal security is detrimental to the cause of Christ and those who teach eternal security advance the cause of Satan.

Salvation forgives my sins......but I retain a sinful body that I need to control with the assistance of the Holy Spirit!!!
.....and NOBODY sins without consequences.....in this World for the saved and the unsaved......and in the next World for the unsaved!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

"Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men".Matthew 5:13
note that Christ is speaking to His disciples here, ie the saved and not the world.

.....the point that you have missed is that salt NEVER loses it's flavour.......but IF it did it would become useless and incapable EVER of restoration.....and that is why OSAS is valid!!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" Matthew 7:21notice it's not enough merely to know that he is Lord (or even to call him that), but we must "do" the will of God.

Empty words are obviously useless......but we are still saved ONLY by faith....and our actions follow on from that salvation!!!:D

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Luke 9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
it is interesting that Christ used the term "cast away"- this term is used by the apostle Paul in I Cor. as well, and refers to the special punishment of an apostate believer.

Jesus is referring to fact that even somebody who owned the whole world would still die and suffer eternal perdition if he is not saved!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God". Acts 14:22
the early church knew it was important to CONTINUE in the faith. They didn't merely hold an evangelistic crusade, and send the folks on their way with an easy-believism message, they CONFIRMED the souls of the disciples and exhorted them to "CONTINUE IN THE FAITH". (Doesn't this sound so contrary to the watered-down gospel that is preached today)

The obligation to live in accordance with Christian principles is there for all saved people.......but their salvation is secure from Satan!!

Run_to_da_hills · 11-11-2007 5:06pm

Not sure.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I disagree with you here.

Eternal security allows me to live my life without the shackles of law or rules.

I live life according to the promptings of the Holy Spirit and prayer for the ability to discern the Spirits will.

We are being transformed into the image of Christ, by the Holy Spirit. I'm not there yet, I will sin, but I don't have to get my knickers in a twist over whether or not I'm saved.

I know this because my heart lies with God. My lifestyle shows that and the fruits of teh spirit bears it.

Brian and JC I gather that both of you have no problem that your salvation is secure because both of you are willing to keep up the faith, I am not talking about the Christian who stumbles and gets back up again in his walk with Christ. In this topic I am referring to those who deliberatly turns their back on Christ, ie reject the word of God after being initially saved. Ie those that are living that have "forgotten that they have been saved" in the first place.

J C wrote: »

.....the point that you have missed is that salt NEVER loses it's flavour.......but IF it did it would become useless and incapable EVER of restoration.....and that is why OSAS is valid!!!!!!

You are wrong!!!!! The salt of the Dead Sea has the unique characteristics of loosing its flavour.

All the minerals in the water settle to the bottom of the sea. The salt of the water is suspended in the water and along the shore there is a white salty mineral. This area is very warm year round and the water of the Dead Sea is very warm. At night when the air cools the minerals along the shore crystallize and is salty to the taste. When the sun comes out there is a chemical reaction in which this mineral looses its salty flavor. This mineral becomes of no value. It is a waste product of the Dead Sea.

When Jesus was teaching the people while on the mountain He drew their attention to this truth of the salt loosing its flavor and not being of any value. It is possible that the people understood His illustration.

Jesus was not talking about the factory produced yellow pack salt.

J C wrote: »

Jesus is referring to fact that even somebody who owned the whole world would still die and suffer eternal perdition if he is not saved!!

Paul warns us in Timothy “For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, and in their eagerness to be rich some have wandered away from the faith.” 1 Timothy 6:10

J C wrote: »

The obligation to live in accordance with Christian principles is there for all saved people.......but their salvation is secure from Satan!!

Thats what Satan would like all saved people to believe, but infact Salvation is secure only for those that endureth to the end.

"And ye shall be hated of all men for My Name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved" (Matthew 10:22).

wolfsbane · 11-11-2007 6:22pm

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Run_to_da_hills said:

I am not talking about the Christian who stumbles and gets back up again in his walk with Christ. In this topic I am referring to those who deliberatly turns their back on Christ, ie reject the word of God after being initially saved. Ie those that are living that have "forgotten that they have been saved" in the first place.

That's a helpful clarification. It takes us to the issue of what you understand happens to such folk:
1. Are they able to repent again and be re-saved?
2. Are they forever beyond hope?
3. What percentage of true Christians become unsaved?
4. What do you say to the many who have made a profession of Christian faith but then fell into adultery, drunkeness, theft, etc?

I think answers to those questions will lead us well on in our search for the truth about OSAS.

Run_to_da_hills · 11-11-2007 6:49pm

Not sure.

wolfsbane wrote: »

Run_to_da_hills said:

That's a helpful clarification. It takes us to the issue of what you understand happens to such folk:
1. Are they able to repent again and be re-saved?
2. Are they forever beyond hope?
3. What percentage of true Christians become unsaved?
4. What do you say to the many who have made a profession of Christian faith but then fell into adultery, drunkeness, theft, etc?

I think answers to those questions will lead us well on in our search for the truth about OSAS.

Answers,
1/ You are saved once, you can repent of your sin and be braught back to your relationship with God as with the case of the prodigal son. (Sin seperates us all from God, saved or unsaved. those that believe OSAS dont seem to understand this)

2/No, No matter how far someone falls back into sin they can never go too far however we are told that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is an unforgivible sin. "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. (Matthew 12vs31)

3/Matthew would state that the precentage would be high for those that become "unsaved", "For many are called, but few are chosen". (Matthew 22vs 14) Also "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able" (Matthew 7vs13).

4/I would have been of this category myself. If I had not repented and come back I would have died in my sins and would have been condemed more than any unsaved person because I knew what was right.

wolfsbane · 12-11-2007 10:26pm

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

I had said:It takes us to the issue of what you understand happens to such folk:
1. Are they able to repent again and be re-saved?
2. Are they forever beyond hope?
3. What percentage of true Christians become unsaved?
4. What do you say to the many who have made a profession of Christian faith but then fell into adultery, drunkeness, theft, etc?

Run_to_da_hills answers,

1/ You are saved once, you can repent of your sin and be braught back to your relationship with God as with the case of the prodigal son.

If a truly saved man can fall away, what then do these Scriptures tell us?
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

Sin seperates us all from God, saved or unsaved. Those that believe OSAS dont seem to understand this)

I understand it. The sin of a son is disciplined by his Father; the sin of those not sons is dealt with by the Judge. One results in renewed repentance; the other in eternal damnation.

Are you saying that every sin in thought, word and deed that we may fall into daily unsaves us? How many times have you been unsaved this week? Or have you not sinned for years?

2/No, No matter how far someone falls back into sin they can never go too far however we are told that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is an unforgivible sin. "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. (Matthew 12vs31)

See above. If the saved can be lost, it is permanent. Then the any sin and blasphemy Christ referred to means those commited by sinners before their conversion, not after.

3/Matthew would state that the precentage would be high for those that become "unsaved", "For many are called, but few are chosen". (Matthew 22vs 14) Also "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able" (Matthew 7vs13).

All who hear the gospel are called to repentance, but only the elect will obey it.

Notice that those not able are only they who seek to enter the road to eternal life, not those already on it.

Nothing here about anyone becoming "unsaved".

4/I would have been of this category myself. If I had not repented and come back I would have died in my sins and would have been condemed more than any unsaved person because I knew what was right.

Exactly - but because you were a true Christian, you did repent. It is not possible that God would abandon you to your folly. He either brings you to repentance or He removes you from your sin:
1 Corinthians 11:30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

God does what ever it takes to keep us from being condemned like the rest of the world.

Romans 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:

“ For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

J C · 18-11-2007 7:26pm

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Brian and JC I gather that both of you have no problem that your salvation is secure because both of you are willing to keep up the faith, I am not talking about the Christian who stumbles and gets back up again in his walk with Christ. In this topic I am referring to those who deliberatly turns their back on Christ, ie reject the word of God after being initially saved. Ie those that are living that have "forgotten that they have been saved" in the first place.

NOBODY who is saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit "forgets that they have been saved !!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

You are wrong!!!!! The salt of the Dead Sea has the unique characteristics of loosing its flavour.

All the minerals in the water settle to the bottom of the sea. The salt of the water is suspended in the water and along the shore there is a white salty mineral. This area is very warm year round and the water of the Dead Sea is very warm. At night when the air cools the minerals along the shore crystallize and is salty to the taste. When the sun comes out there is a chemical reaction in which this mineral looses its salty flavor. This mineral becomes of no value. It is a waste product of the Dead Sea.

When Jesus was teaching the people while on the mountain He drew their attention to this truth of the salt loosing its flavor and not being of any value. It is possible that the people understood His illustration.

The mineral rich waters of the Dead Sea are saturated with Common Salt.
A plain reading of the cited verses of Scripture would indicate that Jesus was talking about Common Salt.......which adds it's flavour......even when it is diluted.
Common Salt is a very stable compound which can only be destroyed artificially by electrolysis. It can be detected, even at very low concentrations and it therefore is a very good analogy for the impact that Christians make on the world.

It was a rhetorical question that Jesus was posing.......when He said in Mt 5:13 "Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? "

On the one hand, Jesus was saying that Salt cannot be 're-salted'

......just like a saved Christian also cannot be ''re-saved' ........

......but as salt doesn't lose it's flavour by natural processes.....Christians cannot be 'unsaved' either!!!!

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Paul warns us in Timothy “For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, and in their eagerness to be rich some have wandered away from the faith.” 1 Timothy 6:10

…..and it continues on that such people “pierced themselves through with many sorrows.”

Paul is making the point that the things of this world ultimately fail to satisfy us ……and the next verse urges Timothy to avoid being caught up in worldly affairs……but it doesn’t cast any doubt on his ultimate salvation.
1Ti 6:11 But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness.

BrianCalgary · 19-11-2007 4:22pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Brian and JC I gather that both of you have no problem that your salvation is secure because both of you are willing to keep up the faith, I am not talking about the Christian who stumbles and gets back up again in his walk with Christ. In this topic I am referring to those who deliberatly turns their back on Christ, ie reject the word of God after being initially saved. Ie those that are living that have "forgotten that they have been saved" in the first place.
.

This I can agree on. Then the question begs itself of th eperson who does 'backslide' to such a degree, where they saved in the first place?

I think that it is an unanswerable question.

kelly1 · 19-11-2007 4:31pm

Not sure.

Personally I think this saved (past tense) business is a load of nonsense. Nobody knows until you die. Even St Paul was unsure of his salvation.

Phil 3:11 If by any means I may attain to the resurrection which is from the dead. 12 Not as though I has already attained, or were already perfect; but I follow after, if I may by any means apprehend, wherein I am also apprehended by Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended. But one thing I do: forgetting the things that are behind, and stretching forth myself to those that are before, 14 I press towards the mark, to the prize of the supernal vocation of God in Christ Jesus.

BrianCalgary · 19-11-2007 6:54pm

Phillipians 3
10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Pressing on Toward the Goal
12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
15All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

17Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you.

Paul is understanding taht we are all a work in progress. That while here on Earth we will not and cannot get to the Christlikeness that we desire.

That will only be attained on sharing His resurrection.

Quite in line with Romans 8:29
29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Run_to_da_hills · 20-11-2007 1:06am

Not sure.

J C wrote: »

NOBODY who is saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit "forgets that they have been saved !!!.

A person can very easily forget that they have been saved, infact they can forget the very sins that God has forgiven them from if they "return to their own vomit" as it is very well put in 2 peter22vs2.

J C wrote: »

The mineral rich waters of the Dead Sea are saturated with Common Salt.
On the one hand, Jesus was saying that Salt cannot be 're-salted'
......just like a saved Christian also cannot be ''re-saved' ........

......but as salt doesn't lose it's flavour by natural processes.....Christians cannot be 'unsaved' either!!!!!!!.

They did not have a periodic table of elements back in those days, the dead sea was known as the "Salt Sea" (Genisis 14vs3) and as I said before, the salt that was exposed at the edge of this sea lost its flavour,and this is what Jesus was talking about, ie It cannot be "re-salted". A Christian cannot be "re-saved" but a backslider who has truely repented can be "grafted back" (Romans 11:23)

"Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover a multitude of sins" (James 5:19,20)

Note: If the backslider does not get corrected, his soul will perish with spiritual death. That is not everlasting life. The word wanders also means to sever or fall away from the truth, to be led astray into error and sin.

The word from also means of departing, of fleeing, of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed. Clearly, this is about brethren who are no longer saved. The word turns also means to cause to return, to bring back to the love and obedience of God. That's part of what I'm trying to do with this web page. The word save also means to preserve one who is in danger of destruction. The word death is the same one in 1:15 above and it also means with the implied idea of future misery in hell, the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell

I cannot find even one shred of evidence that OSAS is true. Almost as amazing was the way the OSAS teachers distorted Bible passages to fit into the OSAS teaching. I found their distortions so unfounded and false that I could not even begin to comprehend how they could interpret passages the way they do

If God didn’t want us to be able to choose He would not have given us the gift of freewill. It is this gift which places us above the animals. It is this gift which allows us to choose to either worship God or not worship God. It is this gift, and only this gift, which allows us to truly love Him like a son. It is this gift which proves that ‘once saved, always saved’ must be wrong.

If we are saved in spite of ourselves then there is no freewill. If there is no freewill then the Bible is wrong! I don’t believe that the Bible is wrong

kelly1 wrote: »

Personally I think this saved (past tense) business is a load of nonsense. Nobody knows until you die. Even St Paul was unsure of his salvation.

Not true, YOU MUST BE SAVED.

You MUST be a born-again Christian. I don't care how much you may think you're doing for God, or in Jesus' name, it will all amount to absolutely NOTHING if you die in your sins without Christ (John 8:24). The Bible makes this clear in Matthew 7:21-23, "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

kelly1 · 20-11-2007 11:32am

Not sure.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Not true, YOU MUST BE SAVED. You MUST be a born-again Christian.

I am born again because I was baptised. And no I don't have to be a born-again Christian, thanks.

Anyway I think this whole argument between you and JC is getting a bit silly really. There are heaps of passages in scripture that show that salvation can be lost so JC is wrong and you are wrong because being saved isn't a one time event. Our salvation depends on the state of our soul at the moment you die. If you die in a state of grace you are then saved, otherwise you're damned. It's that simple.

Time for me to unsubcribe from this thread methinks.

God bless,
Noel.

Run_to_da_hills · 20-11-2007 12:40pm

Not sure.

kelly1 wrote: »

I am born again because I was baptised. And no I don't have to be a born-again Christian, thanks.

Anyway I think this whole argument between you and JC is getting a bit silly really. There are heaps of passages in scripture that show that salvation can be lost so JC is wrong and you are wrong because being saved isn't a one time event. Our salvation depends on the state of our soul at the moment you die. If you die in a state of grace you are then saved, otherwise you're damned. It's that simple.

You MUST be born again in spirit, baptism is merely a symbol, the very words of Jesus himself. "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God". John 3vs3
Also "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God". The Water being spoken about here is the water which is broken at natural birth of all babies.

The Catholic Church is a system of man-made doctrines, find out for yourself. It is a system of religion, not of God. Salvation is NOT found in any religion, it is found only in a Personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Getting baptized won't give you the new birth. Getting baptized does only one thing and that is getting you wet.

Does wearing a ring make a person married? Of course not! Likewise, baptism does NOT make anyone a Christian. You can get baptized all you want, it cannot merit you any favor with God.

What is baptism then? It is something God wants us to do AFTER we accept Jesus Christ as our Saviour. A person wears a wedding ring because he or she is ALREADY married. The ring is simply a symbol, it does NOT make you married, any more than getting baptized makes you a believer, It does NOT!!!

Listen to the words of the St Paul in 1st Corinthians 1:17 "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

kelly1 · 20-11-2007 1:32pm

Not sure.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Getting baptized won't give you the new birth. Getting baptized does only one thing and that is getting you wet.

Listen to the words of the St Paul in 1st Corinthians 1:17 "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

This verse seems to conflict with Mt 28. Maybe Paul is saying that he's not sent to baptise in his own name as opposed to being baptised in the name of The Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Did Jesus send the Apostles out to wet peoples heads? Do you think Jesus would ask them to do something useless?

And doesn't John 3 show that water is required for baptism?

5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

God bless,
Noel.

Run_to_da_hills · 20-11-2007 2:00pm

Not sure.

kelly1 wrote: »

This verse seems to conflict with Mt 28. Maybe Paul is saying that he's not sent to baptise in his own name as opposed to being baptised in the name of The Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Read the verse carefully, it is telling us to "teach all nations" then baptising them in that order. Ie those that are baptised are aware of what they are being preached. The Catholic Church and other religions do the exact oposite, ie they baptise first and then preach after.

kelly1 wrote: »

Did Jesus send the Apostles out to wet peoples heads? Do you think Jesus would ask them to do something useless?

To those that are unsaved it is only getting their heads wet. baptism is merely a symbol one partakes after they are saved, one must be consious of being saved before he/she is baptised. Christians get baptised after they have "repented" and made that solomn committment. There is no mention at all of Infant sprinkling baptism in scripture.

kelly1 wrote: »

5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God..

Again, every baby ever born on this planet has been born of water, When a woman gives birth "water is broken". Jesus was not talking about baptism here as all babies are "born in water" at birth.

JimiTime · 20-11-2007 2:18pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

[/B]Again, every baby ever born on this planet has been born of water, When a woman gives birth "water is broken". Jesus was not talking about baptism here as all babies are "born in water" at birth.

I am against infant baptism myself RTTH, however your explaination above is incorrect. The scripture does not say born of water. It says, born AGAIN of water and of holy spirit.

kelly1 · 20-11-2007 2:38pm

Not sure.

JimiTime wrote: »

... however your explaination above is incorrect. The scripture does not say born of water. It says, born AGAIN of water and of holy spirit.

Thanks Jimi, you saved me the trouble

Dangers of private interpretation again...

Run_to_da_hills · 20-11-2007 2:45pm

Not sure.

JimiTime wrote: »

I am against infant baptism myself RTTH, however your explaination above is incorrect. The scripture does not say born of water. It says, born AGAIN of water and of holy spirit.

Sorry I should have explained it better, the first time one is "born of water" is at the natural birth and the second time is of baptism and of the the Holy Spirit.

kelly1 · 20-11-2007 2:51pm

Not sure.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Sorry I should have explained it better, the first time one is born of water is at the natural birth and the second time is of baptism and of the the Holy Spirit.

Sorry, I'm not very clear on what you're saying.

1) Do you think water is necessary for baptism and 2) is baptism to you the same as being born again?

Run_to_da_hills · 20-11-2007 3:07pm

Not sure.

kelly1 wrote: »

Sorry, I'm not very clear on what you're saying.

1) Do you think water is necessary for baptism and 2) is baptism to you the same as being born again?

1) I dont believe water baptism is necessary for salvation, If we read in Acts, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved", Full imersion water baptism is merely a symbol as I mentioned before, it is like wearing a wedding ring after one is married and is usually done in public at churches.
2)No, I got baptised several months after I became bornagain.

kelly1 · 20-11-2007 3:13pm

Not sure.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

1) I dont believe water baptism is necessary for salvation, If we read in Acts, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved", Full imersion water baptism is merely a symbol as I mentioned before, it is like wearing a wedding ring after one is married and is usually done in public at churches.
2)No, I got baptised several months after I became bornagain.

I'm inclined to agree with you on point 1. Water is the norm for baptism but baptism by desire is possible.

Not on point 2 though. I belive they are the same thing. How does one become born again in your opinion? I accept Jesus as my Lord and Saviour but I don't believe this is being born again. That's what baptism is for.

Peace,
Noel.

Zombrex · 20-11-2007 3:35pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Our salvation depends on the state of our soul at the moment you die. If you die in a state of grace you are then saved, otherwise you're damned. It's that simple.

I said that ages ago but no one listened to me because I'm an atheist

BrianCalgary · 20-11-2007 4:43pm

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm inclined to agree with you on point 1. Water is the norm for baptism but baptism by desire is possible.

Not on point 2 though. I belive they are the same thing. How does one become born again in your opinion? I accept Jesus as my Lord and Saviour but I don't believe this is being born again. That's what baptism is for.

Peace,
Noel.

I used to have the same understnding as you on point 2 Noel. I was baptised as an infant and thought that was it, especially after making confirmation.

However when I was baptised as an adult about 7 years ago, the Holy Spirit came upon me. So I was born again of water and teh Holy Spirit at that time.

Since then spiritual life and ministry life has been quite amazing.

kelly1 · 20-11-2007 4:58pm

Not sure.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I used to have the same understnding as you on point 2 Noel. I was baptised as an infant and thought that was it, especially after making confirmation.

However when I was baptised as an adult about 7 years ago, the Holy Spirit came upon me. So I was born again of water and teh Holy Spirit at that time.

Since then spiritual life and ministry life has been quite amazing.

I'm still not clear on this. Are you equating baptism with being born again or are they separate events? If they are separate, how is one "born again"?

JimiTime · 20-11-2007 6:41pm

kelly1 wrote: »

Thanks Jimi, you saved me the trouble

Dangers of private interpretation again...

'Dangers'. Such fear Noel. What is it you are afraid of?

BrianCalgary · 20-11-2007 10:27pm

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm still not clear on this. Are you equating baptism with being born again or are they separate events? If they are separate, how is one "born again"?

Equating them. Jesus said that you have to be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus was baptised He was baptised with water and teh Holy Spirit descended on Him.

As with us, when we are baptised with water the Holy Spirit comes upon us. We are then born again. We have come out of the water, as a birth and the Holy Spirit then comes on us.

kelly1 · 20-11-2007 10:44pm

Not sure.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Equating them. Jesus said that you have to be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus was baptised He was baptised with water and teh Holy Spirit descended on Him.

As with us, when we are baptised with water the Holy Spirit comes upon us. We are then born again. We have come out of the water, as a birth and the Holy Spirit then comes on us.

clearly RTDH doesn't equate baptism with being born again as you can see from what he wrote:

You MUST be a born-again Christian
You MUST be born again in spirit, baptism is merely a symbol
Getting baptized won't give you the new birth.
What is baptism then? It is something God wants us to do AFTER we accept Jesus Christ as our Saviour.
baptism is merely a symbol one partakes after they are saved

So my question is this: If being born again means accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour, am I and every other Christian not therefore born again according to RTDH?

So why must I be "a Born-again Christian" instead of a Catholic or Evangelical etc?

BrianCalgary · 20-11-2007 11:10pm

kelly1 wrote: »

So my question is this: If being born again means accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour, am I and every other Christian not therefore born again according to RTDH?

So why must I be "a Born-again Christian" instead of a Catholic or Evangelical etc?

I never liked the term 'born-again Christian', It's redundant. If I'm a Christian I have been born again and if I have been reborn, it makes me a Christian.

You can be a Christian without Baptism. You can be saved without Baptism. Salvation comes form a personal decision to turn your life over to Jesus and to accept God's gift of grace.

After this personal act, it should be followed up by an act of obedience, which is the public act of Baptism to show your intentions of a life in Christ.

I consider myself a Christian who goes to an Alliance church, and sometimes Baptist Church and less often Anglican and Catholic. I consider all those who profess Christ as brothers and sisters regardless of denomination.

I don't like the term Protestant, because I am not protesting anything, I am proclaiming Christ as Lord.

Make sense?

kelly1 · 20-11-2007 11:25pm

Not sure.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

You can be a Christian without Baptism.

I wouldn't entirely concur on that point because according to catholic theology nobody is born with sanctifying grace (except Jesus and Mary). Baptism being a sacrament erases original sin and gives the soul grace. Until we are baptised, we're neither God's children nor members of Christ's Body. You can't claim to follow Christ and not be baptised because this would go against God's will.

J C · 20-11-2007 11:39pm

Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.

Kelly1
I'm still not clear on this. Are you equating baptism with being born again or are they separate events? If they are separate, how is one "born again"?
Originally Posted by kelly1
5 Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God..

The KJV of Jn 3:5 says Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

The term ‘born again’ is ACTUALLY used by Jesus in Jn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
…… so what does it mean to be born again?

As I have said, this term first appears in the Bible in John chapter three ...
"There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." -John 3:1-7

To understand this Biblical term, it is necessary to understand that there are TWO BIRTHS.
The "first" birth is the PHYSICAL BIRTH when you were born into this world from your mother and father. When the Bible speaks of being "born of water," it is speaking about physical conception and birth in water (NOT baptism).
The "second" birth is a SPIRITUAL BIRTH, which means to be born of the "Spirit" (God's Holy Spirit).
Jesus confirms the nature of the two births in Jn 3:6 when He says that flesh is born of flesh and spirit is born of spirit.

This raises a couple of questions: Why does a person need to be born spiritually?...and, What is a "spiritual" birth?
The Bible teaches that man is created in the image of God. God manifests Himself to mankind in the Persons of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Likewise, mankind is composed of a body, soul, and spirit. Our body is the "tent" (i.e. the body is a temporary dwelling place) of the soul and the spirit.
Our soul is composed of the heart (to feel), the mind (to think), and the will (to decide).
Our spirit is dead in sin when we are born; that is, we are born devoid of God.
No person is ever born with God. The only exception is the Lord Jesus Christ Who came as God in the flesh (1st Timothy 3:16). Our spirit is dead in trespasses and sin the Bible says...
"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:" -Ephesians 2:1,2

The unsaved person cannot understand God...
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." -1st Corinthians 2:14

The reason why you need to be "spiritually" born is because you have never been spiritually born to begin with. So when the Bible speaks of being "born again," it actually means "born for the second time." You were born physically into this world, but you were born without the Spirit of God in your soul (spiritually dead).

Yes, God created you, but He gave you a free will to decide for yourself where you will spend eternity. God never forces anyone to accept Christ as their Savior, He simply offers a warm invitation to anyone who wants to have their sins forgiven and go to Heaven.
Salvation is a free gift (Romans 5:15), paid for by the precious blood of Jesus Christ (1st Peter 1:18,19). We must accept God's gift of eternal life or it WILL be forever forfeited when we leave this world (die).
To be "spiritually" born means that God's Holy Spirit "quickens" (or makes alive) your dead spirit. When you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior, trusting Him alone to forgive all your sins--then God the Father and God the Son come into your heart in the form of God the Holy Spirit (John 14:23). The "Holy Spirit" is "God within us."

I have God living in my soul as the Holy Spirit of God. I am not God, but I have God living in my body. The Godhead indwells every believer. The Holy Spirit of God guides me, comforts me, teaches me, rebukes me, chastises me, convicts me, encourages me, empowers me, loves me, strengthens me, and so much more. The Holy Spirit uses the Word of God to do these things.

A person cannot understand the Bible without the presence of the Author, and God is the Author. When you become born again (or born for the second time), God's Holy Spirit comes into your body (1st Corinthians 3:16), never to leave (Hebrews 13:5), and you will understand many new things for the first time in your life...
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." -2nd Corinthians 5:17

It is ONLY through the Precious Word of God that anyone can be born-again. Surely, no one can born into this world again physically... there is no turning back the hands of time. However, you most certainly can be born again spiritually into God's family through the Spirit of Christ... "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Romans 8:9). The way we become "born again" is found in the Word of God...

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." -1st Peter 1:23
We are born again by the Word of God. Jesus is the Word of God (John 1:1,14: Revelation 19:13).

If you don't receive Jesus Christ and become a born again Christian, then you will end in Hell for all eternity (John 3:18, 36; Revelation 20:15; 21:8).

The GOOD NEWS (the Gospel) is that it is very EASY to have the second birth, i.e., a spiritual birth. God came down to this earth 2,000 years ago and took upon Himself the form of a man. That man was the Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14; 1st Timothy 3:16). Literally, the GODHEAD became incarnate (Colossians 2:9--King James Bible). Jesus was born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14). Jesus never sinned once (2nd Corinthians 5:21). Jesus died, was buried and rose again after three days (1st Corinthians 15:1-4). Jesus shed His blood to pay for all our sins (Colossians 1:14; 1st Peter 1:18,19), and applied that blood to the Mercy Seat in Heaven (Hebrews 9:24-26).

There are a few things you must accept to be saved:
1. You are a sinner under the condemnation of God's Law (Romans 3:10,23).

2. You are GUILTY, and deserve to go to Hell as punishment for your sins (Romans 3:19; 6:23; Revelation 21:8).

3. Jesus Christ, God in the flesh (God's Son), died upon the cross to pay for your sins (John 3:16-18; Romans 5:8). It is Jesus' blood that takes our sins away (1st John 1:7).

If you believe that Jesus is the Savior (the Christ) who paid for your sins, and you realize your sinful condition (and thus your need for a Savior), then you're ready to be born again.
All you need to do is repent (i.e., turn) to Jesus Christ in faith, believing upon Him to forgive your sins and save you... "Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."
You may pray if you'd like, but you don't have to. Salvation is of the heart (Romans 10:10). If you'd like to pray, simply ask Jesus to forgive your sins and tell Him that you're trusting Him as your Savior. It matters not exactly what you pray, just as long as you realize these two main truths:
1. You are a guilty sinner under the condemnation of God's Law!
2. Jesus is the Savior who shed His blood to take away your sins!

You might pray something like this...
Dear Jesus, I know that I am a sinner. I believe that you are the Son of God, the Savior, who shed your blood to pay for my sins. I now believe upon You as my personal Savior, and ask you to please forgive me of all my sins. Please save me and take me to Heaven when I die. Amen.

If you sincerely asked Jesus to forgive your sins, then you are now part of God's family. You could have just prayed, "God be merciful to me a sinner." The thief on the cross simply asked Jesus to "remember" him, and Jesus most certainly did. There is nothing "magic" about the words you pray, it is your faith (trust) in Jesus Christ that saves you. It is your faith that causes you to call upon Jesus to forgive your sins and take you to Heaven. God wants to save you more than you could ever want to be saved (2nd Peter 3:9). If you were sincere, then you are now a born-again Christian.

kelly1 · 20-11-2007 11:52pm

Not sure.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

There are many "Born again Christians" that chose to remain in the Catholic Church after they committed their lives others like myself have chosen to leave it. Paddy Monaghan would be an example of one who decided to remain in the RC, He would be one of those responsible for introducing the Alpha Courses to the Catholic Church. http://www.alphacourse.ie/alphainireland.htm.

OK, but what makes me (a Catholic) not "born again"?

Once saved always saved is a false doctrine..

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