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Once saved always saved is a false doctrine..

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    #62
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.
    kelly1 said:
    Jesus never promised that our struggle against sin would cease when we decide to follow Him.
    Correct. We are in the war until the day of our departure to be with Him.
    Why did Christ pray for Peter if He was already saved?
    Because that is the infallible means God uses to keep us saved. Christ is our Great High Priest, continually representing us before His Father. God has predestined the ends - the salvation of everyone of Christ's sheep. He also has appointed the means - the work of the Holy Spirit in regenerating us, sanctifiying us, comforting us; Christ's atonement for our sins on Golgotha, His resurrection and ascension to be our High Priest, His coming again to receive us to Himself forever; our persevering in the faith, despite any falls into sin. None of these things can fail. None of His sheep will be lost, for He will keep His part, and will make sure we keep ours.

    Look at the golden chain of salvation in:
    Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

    No link missing from eternity past to eternity to come.

    Remember the terms of the New Covenant:
    Jeremiah 31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

    Our salvation is not on the terms of the Old Covenant - 'Do this and live', which covenant no mere man could keep. The New Covenant is one where God ensures that we keep it: He writes it on our hearts. Result: I will be their God, and they shall be My people..


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    #63
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.
    Run to da hills
    So in other words there is a different rule book for those who are "saved"

    There certainly IS a different rule for the saved………they are saved by God’s Grace and ALL their sins are forgiven by God through NO merit on their part!!!
    ....while the unsaved continue under God's Judgement for their sins!!!

    Run to da hills
    So in other words there is a different rule book for those who are "saved" and have backslid and have deliberately disobey the Gospel, ie stealing, getting Drunk, and having having unlawful sex despite the fact that it clearly states in 1Corrinthians 6 verse 9 11 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God".

    Yes, all your past, present and future sins are forgiven when you are saved…….and ‘the unrighteous’ in 1 Cor 6:9-11 are the unsaved!!

    The ONLY alternative proposition is that your eternal destiny is determined by your state of sin at the moment of your death…..and because ANY sin cannot be tolerated by God, EVERYONE is either doomed (because they will have SOME unrepented sin) or a concept like Purgatory will be required to purge unrepented sins.

    There is NO ‘half-way house’ that is possible between the concepts of being PERMANENTLY saved at a particular point during your life....... or being saved by PURGING your ‘minor sins’ after your death!!!!

    The Bible makes NO reference to the possibility of purging your sins….and it doesn't distinguish between 'minor' and 'major' sins.....

    .......therefore OSAS is the ONLY biblically supported means of salvation from ALL sin!!!


    Run to da hills
    Quoting from James again, sin builds up and when full blown brings forth death.

    Yes, sin can cause physical death!!!


    Run to da hills
    "A new person in Christ" knows well when he sins against god, he is convicted and will almost immediately ask God for forgiveness,

    Yes, you will be able to identify the major sins (from a Human perspective)……but there will be many sins that you won’t even remember……but they will ALL be an affront to God……..and the ONLY way that they can be forgiven is because you are permanently saved…..and ALL your past, present and future sins were forgiven when you were saved.


    Run to da hills
    however as time goes on the Backslider he may be tempted, sin eventually starts to dominate his life to such an extent that he even forgets the fact that he was ever saved in beginning, he no longer fellowships, attends church or reads the bible, this was my case for almost 20 years, However I was fortunate that I was led into a situation that I had to cry out to God for forgiveness, I heard his voice and followed him. Others would have been less fortunate.

    IF somebody forgets that they were ever saved then the fact they were ever saved may be in doubt.

    Either way, IF you are correct, and future sin will ‘unsave’ you, then you had better get ready for a spell in Purgatory (or even a permanent abode in Hell) when you die….because that last lustful thought about your hospital nurse will mean that you will die in unrepented sin….and you seem to believe that unrepented sin will not be forgiven by God!!!!


    Originally Posted by J C
    And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

    Run to da hills
    This verse would explain that no other person can take away your salvation, for example, The Christians that were burnt alive at the stake in their millions by the crusaders of the Church of Rome for denying its teachings. No matter what destruction that was caused to their physical bodies their souls was saved and in Gods hands.

    The verses indicate that God gives eternal life to the saved and they shall NEVER perish …..as well as no other person being able to take away your salvation.

    The people who died in the Crusades will have eternal life if they were saved BEFORE they died!!!


    Run to da hills
    Did the Lord Jesus teach that one moment of faith would guarantee eternal salvation? Speaking to His disciples as He was sending them out to preach the gospel and heal the sick, He warns them, “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: BUT HE THAT ENDURETH TO THE END SHALL BE SAVED." (Matt. 10:22)

    As time-bound creatures we are saved in a moment in time.

    The events in Mat 10:22 took place while Jesus was still alive…….and so the disciples could only be saved after the death and resurrection of Jesus. That was why Jesus told them that those who endured persecution and remained faithful to Him up to the end of His life would be saved!!!!


    Run to da hills
    In John 8:31-32 we see Jesus speaking to some Jews that the Bible says had believed in Him. Jesus tells these believers, “if ye continue in my word, then are ye My disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” Jesus tells these believers that THEY MUST CONTINUE in His word to come to know the truth and to be made free.

    AGAIN, these events all took place while Jesus was still alive…….and so the disciples could only be saved after the death and resurrection of Jesus. That was why Jesus told them that those who continued to remain faithful to Him up to the end of His life would be saved!!!!


    Run to da hills
    In Luke 8:13 we see Jesus in the process of explaining the parable of the sower to His disciples. He makes the point to them that there are some people who “believe” for a while but in time of temptation or trial, they fall away.

    Luke 8:13 states “They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away”

    These are the unsaved people who claim to be Christians, who are full of outward show but who “have no root” …….because they haven’t believed on Jesus Christ to save them.


    Run to da hills
    Can this statement be any plainer from our Lord? Here we need to ask ourselves a question, can someone fall away from something if they had never been there in the first place?

    ……but the people in Lk 8:13 are not falling away from salvation…….they are falling away from the Word of God that they have superficially accepted.


    Run to da hills
    It doesn’t appear that Jesus believed that one moment of faith would guarantee eternal salvation as many teachers today believe and teaching.

    ALL our sins are an equal affront to God......and they are forgiven through no merit on our part......
    .........so WHY do you have such a problem with God's forgiveness of sin after we are saved?

    As time-bound creatures we can only be saved in a moment in time....and IF we are saved ....then we ARE (logically) saved!!!

    Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


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    #64
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Not sure.
    J C wrote: »
    Run to da hills
    So in other words there is a different rule book for those who are "saved"

    There certainly IS a different rule for the saved………they are saved by God’s Grace and ALL their sins are forgiven by God through NO merit on their part!!!
    ....while the unsaved continue under God's Judgement for their sins!!!
    I certainly agree with you that the unsaved are under Gods Judgement however I believe Sin is Sin and to knowingly carry on a life of sinning after being clensed by the blood of Christ (Saved) will certainly be judged by the same scriptures. We have only one rule book and that is the Word of God where it states that "the wages of sin is death".
    J C wrote: »
    Yes, all your past, present and future sins are forgiven when you are saved…….and ‘the unrighteous’ in 1 Cor 6:9-11 are the unsaved!!
    When I accepted Christ at first (Became born again), all my sins were forgiven, My present sins are forgiven when I aknowledge them in a confessional (not to an other man) directly to Jesus who is my mediator. It is an extremly dangerous thing to assume my future sins will be forgiven, or to carry out a sinful act as mentioned already and assume that "God will forgive me in the future, im saved anyway"

    Read the parable of the 10 virgins, a classic example showing how dangerous it is to be unprepared, How dangerous it is to not be right with god all the time.

    "Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight a cry was heard: "Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!" Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said to the wise, "Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out." But the wise answered, saying, "No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves." And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. Afterwards the other virgins came also, saying, "Lord, Lord, open to us!" But he answered and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you." Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming".’ [Matthew 25.1-13 NKJV]

    The five that had no oil were the ones that would have fallen back into the world and were not prepared, ie they were living in sin, ie caught out.

    J C wrote: »
    Quoting from James again, sin builds up and when full blown brings forth death.

    Yes, sin can cause physical death!!!
    Im afraid, this is spiritual death! We all die a physical death! The wages of sin is death!.


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    #65
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.
    Originally Posted by J C
    There certainly IS a different rule for the saved………they are saved by God’s Grace and ALL their sins are forgiven by God through NO merit on their part!!!
    ....while the unsaved continue under God's Judgement for their sins!!!

    Run for da hills
    I certainly agree with you that the unsaved are under Gods Judgement

    ……and I would also point out that the saved are under God’s Grace.....and they therfore are NOT under God's Judgement for ANY sins??


    Run for da hills
    I believe Sin is Sin and to knowingly carry on a life of sinning after being clensed by the blood of Christ (Saved) will certainly be judged by the same scriptures. We have only one rule book and that is the Word of God where it states that "the wages of sin is death".

    Sin is sin ……. and it causes physical death…….which applies to both the saved and the unsaved.

    ………and being saved is the only means for the forgiveness of ALL sin!!!

    As Rom 6:23 says “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”


    Run for da hills
    When I accepted Christ at first (Became born again), all my sins were forgiven, My present sins are forgiven when I aknowledge them in a confessional (not to an other man) directly to Jesus who is my mediator.

    The saved should avoid sin and repent of it whenever possible….because they love God.......and NOT because their eternal destiny is at stake. Other reasons to avoid sin include the prevention of scandal to fellow Christians and the unsaved, the avoidance of the temporal punishment that it may trigger and because of the physical and psychological trauma (including accelerated disease and physical death) that it may cause the Backslider and their fellow man!!!
    ......BUT 'backsliding' will NOT 'unsave' somebody, who is already saved!!!!


    Run for da hills
    It is an extremly dangerous thing to assume my future sins will be forgiven, or to carry out a sinful act as mentioned already and assume that "God will forgive me in the future, im saved anyway"

    A presumption that you can be saved later, would be dangerous all right.

    One of the reasons why we can be confident that OSAS is valid is because there is no valid alternative.

    The ONLY alternative proposition is that a person's eternal destiny is determined by their state of sin at the moment of death…..and because ANY sin cannot be tolerated by God, EVERYONE is either doomed under this proposition (because they will have SOME unrepented sin) or a concept like Purgatory will be required to purge these unrepented sins in order to save them.

    There is NO ‘half-way house’ that is logically possible between the concepts of being PERMANENTLY saved at a particular point during your life or being saved by PURGING your unrepented sins after your death!!!!

    The Bible makes NO reference to the possibility of purging your sins….and therefore OSAS is the ONLY biblically supported means of salvation!!!


    Run for da hills
    Read the parable of the 10 virgins, a classic example showing how dangerous it is to be unprepared, How dangerous it is to not be right with god all the time.

    "Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight a cry was heard: "Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!" Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said to the wise, "Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out." But the wise answered, saying, "No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves." And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut. Afterwards the other virgins came also, saying, "Lord, Lord, open to us!" But he answered and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you." Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming".’ [Matthew 25.1-13 NKJV].
    The five that had no oil were the ones that would have fallen back into the world and were not prepared, ie they were living in sin, ie caught out.

    I agree that it is very dangerous to not always be prepared for death and not 'to be right with God'.......so HOW do we become 'right with God'?
    We become 'right with God' by being saved .......by believing on Jesus Christ....who died ONCE to atone for ALL sin......
    ......and similarly, when a person is saved there is a ONCE-OFF forgiveness of ALL of their sins.

    You are NOT saved and saved again and saved again and again and again......you are saved once and forever!!!

    The parable cautions us against not being ready whenever God calls us……..because we have put off being saved.
    There is no evidence from the parable that the wise virgins were any more virtuous or less sinful then the foolish virgins…….they were ALL virgins ….and they ALL slumbered and slept, while they waited for the bridegroom.
    The ONLY difference between the two groups was that the wise virgins were prepared for the wedding when the bridegroom arrived……and the reason the other virgins were foolish was because they had no oil in their lamps……and they missed the wedding feast because they had gone off to get oil at the very time the bridegroom arrived.
    Similarly the unsaved may not get the opportunity to be saved, if they don’t get saved while they can “for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming”.

    So the message is that the unsaved should ‘fill their lamps’ and get saved today!!


    Run for da hills
    Im afraid, this is spiritual death! We all die a physical death! The wages of sin is death!.

    We all die physically, because our physical bodies retain their sinful state, even after we are saved…..and that is why our salvation hasn’t conquered physical death!!!

    Salvation has FULLY conquered spiritual death for the saved…..and that is why salvation is spiritual and eternal ….and OSAS is valid!!!


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    #66
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Not sure.
    J C wrote: »
    Originally Posted by J C
    There certainly IS a different rule for the saved………they are saved by God’s Grace and ALL their sins are forgiven by God through NO merit on their part!!!
    I agree all my sins are forgiven up to the point of being saved
    by grace however after being saved It is up to me to chose to live for Christ for the rest of my live. If I backslide unchecked to such an extent I will no longer be living my life for Christ as a Christian but will be living my life for myself and will loose it in the next. "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it" Mark 8:35 Being saved dose not mean it is all over, that you can
    sit back and relax for the rest of your days.


    J C wrote: »
    and I would also point out that the saved are under God’s Grace.....and they therefore are NOT under God's Judgment for ANY sins??
    Of course the saved are under Gods Judgment for any sins that they knowingly commit without repenting, this is like spitting in the face of Christ. In fact a saved person can fall back in sin to such an extent that he even forgets the fact that he was saved in the first case. “Let us (believers) labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief”—Heb. 4:11.

    It is possible for saved people to backslide and fall from grace. “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift (saved) and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost (sanctified), And have tasted the good word of God (obedient disciples) and the powers of the world to come (the supernatural), If they shall fall away (apostatize or fall from grace) to renew them again to repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame”—Heb. 6:4–6.

    This teaches the possibility that one saved and sanctified, can fall from grace. It does not teach, however, that if one is saved and sanctified, and backslides, falls from grace, he cannot be saved again. It is clear that when one falls, or apostatizes, there is the danger his heart will become so hard he will not repent, or to renew him to repentance. (As it was my case for 20 years) Jesus says, “I tell you nay, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish”—Luke 13:3. There is no salvation short of repentance. If one comes repenting he can be saved. If his heart is so hard he will not repent, there is no possibility of salvation.
    J C wrote: »
    As Rom 6:23 says “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
    The Bible says, “The soul that sinneth it shall die”—Ezek. 18:4. Man loses spiritual life by sinning which means dying. When a man sins, or dies spiritually he will be blotted out of the book of life. “And the Lord said unto Moses, whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book”—Exodus 32:33. “Behold therefore the goodness and the severity of God: on them which fell severity, but toward thee goodness; if thou continue in his goodness; otherwise thou shall also be cut off”—Rom. 11:22.

    This makes it clear that it is possible for the soul to sin after being born again, converted, and saved. It also teaches that it is possible for a believer in Christ to fall from grace, be cut off, and lost forever.

    When one disobeys God, he will be blotted from, or have his part, or name taken out of the book of life (Rev. 22:18–19). God’s work makes it clear that “whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire”—Rev. 20:15.

    Run for da hills
    When I accepted Christ at first (Became born again), all my sins were forgiven, My present sins are forgiven when I acknowledge them in a confessional (not to an other man) directly to Jesus who is my mediator.
    J C wrote: »
    The saved should avoid sin and repent of it whenever possible….because they love God and NOT because their eternal destiny is at stake. Other reasons to avoid sin include the prevention of scandal to fellow Christians and the unsaved, the avoidance of the temporal punishment that it may trigger and because of the physical and psychological trauma (including accelerated disease and physical death) that it may cause the Backslider and their fellow man!!!
    ......BUT 'backsliding' will NOT 'unsave' somebody, who is already saved!!!!
    I agree with you that if one loved God with all their heart they should not knowingly sin, it spits in the face of Christ, and will also send your soul to hell if left unchecked.

    [/QUOTE]
    A presumption that you can be saved later, would be dangerous all right.
    J C wrote: »
    You have admitted that this would be dangerous, in fact it is detrimental and is putting God to the test. One of the greatest tricks of Satan is to "put it off", i.e Ask god for forgiveness in time to come, ie. "I know that I can get away with this, Ill ask God for forgiveness LATER ON MAY NEVER COME, ie "But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?".
    J C wrote: »
    One of the reasons why we can be confident that OSAS is valid is because there is no valid alternative.

    The ONLY alternative proposition is that a person's eternal destiny is determined by their state of sin at the moment of death…..and because ANY sin cannot be tolerated by God, EVERYONE is either doomed under this proposition (because they will have SOME unrepented sin) or a concept like Purgatory will be required to purge these unrepented sins in order to save them.
    There is a valid alternative, HELL!, A true Christian will follow Christ, they will know his voice (My sheep hear my voice John 10:27) and abide in him like the parable of the vine, they understand Christ by reading his word, fellowshipping with other Christians. They know they are following Christ and feel his love.

    On the other hand the Backslider no longer feels this relationship with Christ that he first felt, his heart is hardened towards God, He no longer fellowships, attends Church or reads the word, he no longer feels guilty when he sins and in fact he often has pleasure doing these things, and perhaps the most importantly he has absolutly no interest in God's Plan to Bring Lost Sinners to Christ for Salvation . This is a classic case of the withered vine branch that is cut off and thrown into the fire to be burnt.

    God will never forget or forsake this person and will always forgive him no matter how far back he has fallen as long as he lives (Prodigal Son). God forbid, that person if he dies in his sin in that state. Purgatory is a dirty lie of the Devil and dose not exist. There is not one mention in the Word of God about a place called Purgatory!


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    #67
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Not sure.
    RTDH, good post and nice quotes showing that salvation can be lost. Pity about you statements on Purgatory. There are two consequences of sin: guilt and temporal punishment. When God forgives, He forgives the guilt and without this forgiveness we would suffer eternal punishment. Suffering in this life and Purgatory is temporal punishment. We must be purged of all stain of sin and attachments to sin before we can enter Heaven. See http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html and http://www.rosary-center.org/ll48n6.htm

    God bless,
    Noel.


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    #68
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Not sure.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    RTDH, good post and nice quotes showing that salvation can be lost. Pity about you statements on Purgatory. There are two consequences of sin: guilt and temporal punishment. When God forgives, He forgives the guilt and without this forgiveness we would suffer eternal punishment. Suffering in this life and Purgatory is temporal punishment. We must be purged of all stain of sin and attachments to sin before we can enter Heaven. See http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html and http://www.rosary-center.org/ll48n6.htm

    God bless,
    Noel.
    Purgatory is just as dangerous a docterine as OSAS, Believers in the Christ of Scripture have no fear of Purgatory. "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him".1 Thessalonians 5:9-10.

    Should God choose to chastise his unruly children, it will be in this lifetime, for at death we go to our eternal home (Ecc. 12:5). Christians cannot accept the concept of Purgatory, Although the offering of indulgences is perhaps no longer a major source of of income, it still serves the purpose of creating and maintaining dependency on the Catholic church to ease the consequences of sin. This is just as dangerous as OSAS. THERE IS ONLY ONE CONSEQUENCE OF SIN AND THAT IS DEATH!. "The wages of sin is death"!, (Spiritual death and eternal seperation from God). but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." ( Romans 6:23 KJV)

    Purgatory defeats the whole purpose of Christ dying on the cross. All of mankind’s sins have been paid for by Christ at the Hill of Cavalry in Jerusalem. This is where Jesus hung on a cross and paid the great price. Jesus paid for the sins of the vilest wretched sinner and all that sinner needs to do to be saved is to admit their sin and turn to Christ in faith for the forgiveness of their sins, believing that Christ and Christ alone can save.


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    #69
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Not sure.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Purgatory is just as dangerous a docterine as OSAS
    How is it dangerous? We need to be purified from actual sin and attachment to sin before we are fit to enter Heaven.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Should God choose to chastise his unruly children, it will be in this lifetime, for at death we go to our eternal home (Ecc. 12:5).
    Is this a biblical quote? My bible is nothing like that.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Purgatory defeats the whole purpose of Christ dying on the cross.
    Not at all. Christ's passion and death won for us forgiveness of the guilt of sin and won for us God's grace. That's not to say that we won't be punished. If it's not in this life, it will be in the next.
    Matthew 5:26. Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence [the prison] till thou repay the last farthing.

    From an apologetics site:
    When someone repents, God removes his guilt (Is. 1:18) and any eternal punishment (Rom. 5:9), but temporal penalties may remain. One passage demonstrating this is 2 Samuel 12, in which Nathan the prophet confronts David over his adultery:

    "Then David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’ Nathan answered David: ‘The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin; you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die’" (2 Sam. 12:13-14). God forgave David but David still had to suffer the loss of his son as well as other temporal punishments (2 Sam. 12:7-12). (For other examples, see: Numbers 14:13-23; 20:12; 27:12-14.)

    I don't wish to digress from the topic under discussion so I'll leave it as that.

    God bless,
    Noel.


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    #70
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Not sure.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    How is it dangerous? We need to be purified from actual sin and attachment to sin before we are fit to enter Heaven.

    Is this a biblical quote? My bible is nothing like that.

    Not at all. Christ's passion and death won for us forgiveness of the guilt of sin and won for us God's grace. That's not to say that we won't be punished. If it's not in this life, it will be in the next.



    From an apologetics site:



    I don't wish to digress from the topic under discussion so I'll leave it as that.

    God bless,
    Noel.
    As the OP of this thread I would agree with you that the subject of Purgatory is straying away from the subject of OSAS being a false docterine. However I believe both subjects are very much related. Satan will do anything in his power to make little of sin and will do anything to get people to die in it without repentance by his dirty lies, either by his "get out of Jail free" scam called purgatory, or other dirty tricks such as OSAS. The Bible clearly states, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die", Ezekiel 18:20 and again, "the wages of sin is death". Only jesus has the power to forgive and forget our sin in this life and definitally not in the next.

    Jesus forgives and forgets sin to those that repent and ask him for forgiveness now.

    "come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool".(Isaiah 1vs 18).

    "I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins". (Isaiah 43:25).

    Our lord dose not want anyone to be danmed even the most vilest of sinners, but all to come to repentance, this would include the unsaved and the saved that have fallen back into sin.

    "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3vs9)


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    #71
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.
    Run to da hills
    I agree all my sins are forgiven up to the point of being saved
    by grace however after being saved It is up to me to chose to live for Christ for the rest of my live. If I backslide unchecked to such an extent I will no longer be living my life for Christ as a Christian but will be living my life for myself and will loose it in the next.

    How MANY sins constitutes backsliding “unchecked to such an extent I will no longer be living my life for Christ as a Christian but will be living my life for myself and will loose it in the next.”???

    You seem to be implying that a few so-called ‘minor sins’ won’t affect your salvation…….but you will lose it with ‘more sins’ or ‘big sins’!!!!

    ALL sin is an affront to God…….BUT Jesus Christ has atoned for ALL sin ……and ALL we have to do to be saved is to believe on Jesus Christ !!!


    Run to da hills
    "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it" Mark 8:35 Being saved dose not mean it is all over, that you can
    sit back and relax for the rest of your days.

    ALL saved Christian can relax about their salvation…..
    …….but they cannot relax about their faith or their physical life…….because their faith drives them to witness for Jesus Christ to the unsaved……and many Christians have lost their physical lives for doing so!!!


    Run to da hills
    It is possible for saved people to backslide and fall from grace. “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift (saved) and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost (sanctified), And have tasted the good word of God (obedient disciples) and the powers of the world to come (the supernatural), If they shall fall away (apostatize or fall from grace) to renew them again to repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame”—Heb. 6:4–6.
    This teaches the possibility that one saved and sanctified, can fall from grace. It does not teach, however, that if one is saved and sanctified, and backslides, falls from grace, he cannot be saved again    .

    The above verses indicate that the saved who sin CANNOT be renewed through repentance…..BECAUSE they are already saved…..and Heb 6:9-11 indicates that they are STILL saved with full assurance of hope.
    “ But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
    For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
    And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:”
    …..and Heb 6:18-20 confirms that the hope (or belief) of the saved in their eternal destiny when they die, is guaranteed by Jesus Christ:-
    “That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
    Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
    Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.”


    Run for da hills
    It is clear that when one falls, or apostatizes, there is the danger his heart will become so hard he will not repent, or to renew him to repentance. (As it was my case for 20 years) Jesus says, “I tell you nay, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish”—Luke 13:3. There is no salvation short of repentance. If one comes repenting he can be saved. If his heart is so hard he will not repent, there is no possibility of salvation.

    Luke 13:3 is addressed to the UNSAVED…….who must repent and believe on Him in order to be saved!!!


    Run for da hills
    The Bible says, “The soul that sinneth it shall die”—Ezek. 18:4. Man loses spiritual life by sinning which means dying.

    Ezek 18:4 refers to the punishment of physical death upon the soul (or person) who sins.

    Please bear in mind that this was Old Testament times when the punishment under law for many sins was (physical) death……and nobody was saved at the time, because Jesus had not yet come on Earth….so the ONLY possible interpretation of this verse is that the person who sins shall physically die.


    Run for da hills
    “Behold therefore the goodness and the severity of God: on them which fell severity, but toward thee goodness; if thou continue in his goodness; otherwise thou shall also be cut off”—Rom. 11:22.
    This makes it clear that it is possible for the soul to sin after being born again, converted, and saved. It also teaches that it is possible for a believer in Christ to fall from grace, be cut off, and lost forever.

    Paul was referring to the unsaved members of the Gentile NATIONS being cut off here……and NOT the individually saved members of these nations ……..who were already saved ….. and therefore guaranteed to continue in their salvation.


    Run for da hills
    When one disobeys God, he will be blotted from, or have his part, or name taken out of the book of life (Rev. 22:18–19). God’s work makes it clear that “whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire”—Rev. 20:15.

    The punishment for adding to or taking from the words of prophecy in Revelation is eternal perdition under God’s Judgement……but such judgement doesn’t apply to saved people……who are under God’s grace.

    The people “not found written in the book of life” are the unsaved.


    Run to da hills
    Jesus paid for the sins of the vilest wretched sinner and all that sinner needs to do to be saved is to admit their sin and turn to Christ in faith for the forgiveness of their sins, believing that Christ and Christ alone can save.

    ….and if you do this you are saved ……once and for all!!!

    Have a look here for further elaboration of my point:-
    http://www.allaboutgod.com/once-saved-always-saved.htm


    Run to da hills
    God will never forget or forsake this person (a saved sinner) and will always forgive him no matter how far back he has fallen as long as he lives (Prodigal Son). God forbid, that person if he dies in his sin in that state.

    Either God forgives the saved sinner or He doesn’t!!!
    Could I point out that EVERY saved person will die as a sinner…….who has sinned AFTER being saved…….
    …….so either salvation blots out ALL sin (the OSAS position) …… or something like Purgatory IS required to save ANYBODY!!!!

    Kelly1 is consistent in his belief in salvation through works…..which involve virtue and confession in this life and purgatory in the next.
    This belief in Purgatory isn’t supported Biblically …… but it is a consistent position for somebody who believes in salvation through works.

    Your position, however, is some kind of hybrid between salvation by faith AND works.
    You seem to believe that somebody is saved through faith alright ……but then you seem to think that they ‘run the gauntlet’ of sin and repeated repentance (which is a form of ‘works’) for the rest of their lives …….and as everyone will die with some un-repented sin, all would appear to be doomed under your scenario…..unless you adopt Kelly’s mechanism for the purging of un-repented sin after death……which is some kind of ‘Purgatory’!!!
    The logically consistent position for somebody who believes in salvation through faith alone is OSAS....and denial of 'eternal security' is an acceptance of salvation through (at least some) 'works'!!!


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    #72
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Not sure.
    J C wrote: »
    You seem to be implying that a few so-called ‘minor sins’ won’t affect your salvation…….but you will lose it with ‘more sins’ or ‘big sins’!!!!.
    We seem to be going around in circles over this. Backsliding is a gradual process, It starts off with minor sins and disobedience, submitting to Satan more and more as he takes control over your mind. When he has complete control of your mind you no longer live for Christ but lives for him and then suffers the consequences by losing your salvation.
    J C wrote: »
    ALL sin is an affront to God…….BUT Jesus Christ has atoned for ALL sin ……and ALL we have to do to be saved is to believe on Jesus Christ.
    I agree with you that you MUST be saved, Its up to the person to chose to remain saved and not fall back after that.
    J C wrote: »
    ALL saved Christian can relax about their salvation…..
    …….but they cannot relax about their faith or their physical life…….because their faith drives them to witness for Jesus Christ to the unsaved……and many Christians have lost their physical lives for doing so!!!
    I never heard such rubbish, If anything the Christian should be ON EDGE, AWAKE, SOBER, and definitely NOT relaxed!, Again Read 1 Peter 5vs8 to "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" This includes ANYBODY, saved and unsaved. We all have that appointment with death and lose our "physical lives" at ANY TIME (Hebrews 9:27) It is up to us to be AWAKE with God at all times and not fall back into sin least we be caught out.

    J C wrote: »
    The above verses indicate that the saved who sin CANNOT be renewed through repentance…..BECAUSE they are already saved…..but Heb 6:9-11 indicates that they are STILL saved with full assurance of hope..
    It is true, a person cannot be saved "again and again", once saved our lord NEVER FORGETS that person and will always take him back again only when he confesses, 1john1vs9.
    J C wrote: »
    "except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish” Luke 13:3
    There is no salvation short of repentance. If one comes repenting he can be saved. If his heart is so hard he will not repent, there is no possibility of salvation. [/B]

    Luke 13:3 is addressed to the UNSAVED…….who must repent and believe on Him in order to be saved!!! ..
    Luke 13:3 is addressing both the unsaved and the backslider because both of them will suffer the consequences and die in their sin.
    J C wrote: »
    Ezek 18:4 "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" refers to the punishment of physical death upon the soul (or person) who sins.[/B]..
    . It refers to SPIRITUAL death, we all die a physical death.

    J C wrote: »
    The punishment for adding to or taking from the words of prophecy in Revelation is eternal perdition under God’s Judgement……but such judgement doesn’t apply to saved people……who are under God’s grace...
    Of course it dose, so you are implying that any saved Tom Dick and Harry can go around and butcher the word of god and get away with it, this is the exact reason that there are hundreds of corrupted and perverted versions of the Bible in existent to-day. Any one saved or unsaved will be made accountable for interfering with the Word of God and will suffer the consequences.
    J C wrote: »
    The people “not found written in the book of life” are the unsaved.
    I agree 100% on this one.
    J C wrote: »
    .....and if you do this you are saved ……once and for all!!!.
    That’s what Satan would like to lead you to believe,
    J C wrote: »

    Either God forgives the saved sinner or He doesn’t!!! Could I point out that EVERY saved person will die as a sinner…….who has sinned AFTER being saved…….so either salvation blots out ALL sin (the OSAS position) …… or something like Purgatory IS required to save ANYBODY!!!! .
    As I already stated, Purgatory is a dirty lie of the Devil, just like OSAS, You are SAVED ONCE, it is up to you to endure your relationship with Christ to the very end after that.

    http://www.bebaptized.org/Oncesaved.htm
    http://www.geocities.com/1christlover/OSAS-1Tim-James.html
    J C wrote: »
    Kelly1 is consistent in his belief in salvation through works…..which involve virtue and confession in this life and purgatory in the next.
    This belief in Purgatory isn’t supported Biblically …… but it is a consistent position for somebody who believes in salvation through works.
    Your position, however, is some kind of hybrid between salvation by faith AND works. .
    Kelly1's beliefs is based on salvation through the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church which involves works.

    I believe I am saved through faith in Jesus Christ alone and what he did by dying on the cross to saved my soul. However it is not all over. Sin which seperates me from Christ will always be apart of my life right to the day I die and it is up to me to keep check of it, (If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us, If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1vs8/9 ) It is up to me to endure to the end and not fall away.

    From what I gather you are implying that a person once saved need not keep check of his sins as he goes through life once he is saved because it is a "form of works" and he can sit back and relax because he will not lose his salvation.


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    #73
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Not sure.
    JC and RTDH, could I be very cheeky and ask why the two of you can't agree on wheter OSAS is true? Could it be you aren't qualified to interpret scripture for yourselves in the same way that I'm not qualified? I dare suggest that you're missing half of the picture i.e. Sacred Tradition. There, I've said it now :)


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    #74
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Not sure.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    JC and RTDH, could I be very cheeky and ask why the two of you can't agree on wheter OSAS is true? Could it be you aren't qualified to interpret scripture for yourselves in the same way that I'm not qualified? I dare suggest that you're missing half of the picture i.e. Sacred Tradition. There, I've said it now :)
    What the two of us can agree on is that we are both saved, ie we are both Born Again believers and have both accepted Christ as our saviour.

    What we cannot agree on is that if we fall away or neglect our faith, ie backslide. I believe that I will be made accountible for this and will suffer the concequences while JC believes that this will make no difference to his initial calling. Either way of this dispute between OSAS being true or false, If we both endure to the end we have no worries of losing our salvation.


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    #75
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    What the two of us can agree on is that we are both saved, ie we are both Born Again believers and have accepted Christ as our saviour.

    What we cannot agree on is that if we fall away or neglect our faith, ie backslide. I believe that I will be made accountible for this and will suffer the concequences while JC believes that this will make no difference to his initial calling. Either way of this dispute between OSAS being true or false, If we both endure to the end we have no worries of losing our salvation.


    Well said. :)

    Not a doctrine to divide on.


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    #76
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Not sure.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Either way of this dispute between OSAS being true or false, If we both endure to the end we have no worries of losing our salvation.
    Agreed, you're playing safe so to speak. JC would seem to think that somehow Christ will save him from himself as though his free will were taken away (sorry if I have this wrong). Unfortunately OSAS isn't true and leads to laxity and a false sense of security worthy of a deceipt of the devil.

    God bless,
    Noel.


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    #77
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Not sure.
    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    Well said. :)

    Not a doctrine to divide on.
    But the truth of the matter does is important to know, is it not? Don't you see the danger of OSAS? Salvation can be lost without realizing it etc. It's a Calvinist invention isn't it? Call me a hair splitter, but I think it really does matter when you're dealing with the salvation of souls.

    God bless,
    Noel.


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    #78
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    I really don't think so.

    You can say: OSAS then be lazy and don't worry.

    On the reverse no OSAS live in fear and be legalistic.

    On the first the Christian understands that they have a responsibilty to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and to follow Christs teachings, which include but are not limited to: helping the poor and preaching the gospel.

    On the second it is the same, don't worry about works and legalism just follow the Holy Spirit and obey Christs teachings.

    Either way a true Christian will be recognized by the fruits of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.


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    #79
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.
    Run to da hills
    We seem to be going around in circles over this. Backsliding is a gradual process, It starts off with minor sins and disobedience, submitting to Satan more and more as he takes control over your mind. When he has complete control of your mind you no longer live for Christ but lives for him and then suffers the consequences by losing your salvation.

    IF a person is saved, Satan can have no hold on him/her……because he/she is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

    The situation you are describing isn’t ‘backsliding’ but that of an unsaved person ‘sliding’ deeper into sin.....and Satan's clutches!!!!


    Run to da hills
    the Christian should be ON EDGE, AWAKE, SOBER, and definitely NOT relaxed!, Again Read 1 Peter 5vs8 to "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" This includes ANYBODY, saved and unsaved.

    The devils devouring DOESN’T include everybody (i.e. the saved and the unsaved).
    The devil is the adversary of the saved (and Jesus Christ) for the eternal lives of the unsaved.
    Satan can ONLY devour the unsaved…….and it is the duty of the saved to remain ‘awake and sober’ like a lifeguard to try and help save the lost from Satan’s clutches!!!!


    Run to da hills
    We all have that appointment with death and lose our "physical lives" at ANY TIME (Hebrews 9:27) It is up to us to be AWAKE with God at all times and not fall back into sin least we be caught out.

    …..there you go again, with a (partially) ‘works based’ salvation!!!!

    EVERYBODY is in a state of sin AT ALL TIMES…….so HOW are you going to be saved IF you are going to be judged on your sinful state when you die?

    The people who hold to a full ‘works based’ salvation ALSO recognise that EVERYONE will have unrepented sins when they die……and they have introduced the concept of Purgatory to purge these sins.

    The people who hold to a full ‘faith based’ salvation believe that ALL sins are forgiven at the moment a person is saved (including all future unrepented sins).

    Your position however, means that we would NEITHER have the assurance of ‘eternal security’ through faith NOR the ability to purge unrepented sin through works……

    …….it is.the ‘worst of both possible worlds’ so to speak……and effectively denies the possibility of salvation by EITHER ‘works’ OR ‘faith’!!!!:)


    Run to da hills
    It is true, a person cannot be saved "again and again", once saved our lord NEVER FORGETS that person and will always take him back again only when he confesses, 1john1vs9.

    Of course, the Christian strives to avoid sin…..and confesses and repents of any sin that they may be aware that they have committed…..and anyone who denies they are a sinner is a liar…….
    ……..BUT a person’s salvation does NOT depend on repenting of EVERY sin ……because the saved are under God’s Grace ……. they are NOT under His Judgement………which would condemn them for their sins…..IF they weren’t saved!!!


    Run to da hills
    Luke 13:3 (except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish) is addressing both the unsaved and the backslider because both of them will suffer the consequences and die in their sin.

    Luke 13:3 was addressed to the unsaved.

    To be saved you MUST repent and believe on Jesus Christ to forgive all of your sin.
    Once you are saved you SHOULD repent of sin to avoid further temporal punishment for it and to avoid scandal and because you love God and are sorry for the affront that you have caused to Him and your fellow man!!!


    Run to da hills
    Of course it dose, so you are implying that any saved Tom Dick and Harry can go around and butcher the word of god and get away with it, this is the exact reason that there are hundreds of corrupted and perverted versions of the Bible in existent to-day. Any one saved or unsaved will be made accountable for interfering with the Word of God and will suffer the consequences.

    Any saved Tom, Dick or Harry WON’T ‘mess’ with the Word of God………because they are indwelt by God’s Holy Spirit they respect it's veracity!!

    ………but they WILL ‘get away with’ sin……after all, that IS what being saved is all about!!!!

    Fact:- Jesus Christ came to save SINNERS!!!
    Fact:- We are undeserving of salvation!!!
    Fact:- We are saved as sinners through no merit on our part!!


    Run to da hills
    It is up to me to endure to the end and not fall away.

    You make it sound like an endurance test or a marathon!!!:)

    Salvation is a loving relationship between God and Man…….and NOT a loveless marathon marriage of convenience and endurance!!!

    …….and your salvation is not ‘up to you’…….but an UNMERITED free gift from God …..


    Run to da hills
    From what I gather you are implying that a person once saved need not keep check of his sins as he goes through life once he is saved because it is a "form of works" and he can sit back and relax because he will not lose his salvation.

    Of course, a Christian will ‘reign in’ his sinful inclinations…….for the love of God and his fellow man……but NOT because he will lose his (already assured) salvation!!!!!!


    Kelly1
    JC and RTDH, could I be very cheeky and ask why the two of you can't agree on wheter OSAS is true? Could it be you aren't qualified to interpret scripture for yourselves in the same way that I'm not qualified? I dare suggest that you're missing half of the picture i.e. Sacred Tradition.

    You could be very cheeky......and I will be equally cheeky, and ask you :-
    Where does the Bible refer to ‘Sacred Tradition’ as a means of salvation?:confused:

    ……and BTW, a Christian indwelt by the Holy Spirit, IS fully qualified to interpret Holy Scripture……you cannot get a better teacher than God Himself, after all!!!:)


    Run to da hills
    What the two of us can agree on is that we are both saved, ie we are both Born Again believers and have both accepted Christ as our saviour.

    What we cannot agree on is that if we fall away or neglect our faith, ie backslide. I believe that I will be made accountible for this and will suffer the concequences while JC believes that this will make no difference to his initial calling. Either way of this dispute between OSAS being true or false, If we both endure to the end we have no worries of losing our salvation.

    A fair and reasonable summary……….only I won’t be merely ‘enduring’ to the end ……I will be joyously proclaiming the reality of God’s saving grace and my assured salvation to all who will listen!!!!

    …….and thanking God for having saved a wretch like me DESPITE my sinful condition!!!!

    I often think that some Christians make Christianity (and the avoidance of sin) look like a terrible sacrifice……when the reality is that it is a great source of joy and consolation.

    The fact that the Sovereign God of the Universe loved ME personally so much that He died on the cross to set aside ALL MY SINS never ceases to amaze me!!!

    …….and if anybody thinks that avoiding sin is drudgery…….just think of what your life could be like if you embrace sin…….
    ……you could be forever looking over your shoulder for a policeman to arrest you for theft or awaiting the moment when a jealous husband will wreak vengeance on you for committing adultery with his wife or end up dreading when she will turn up at your door claiming that you are the father of her child!!!!!

    Equally you could be enslaved by work without rest 24/7 or be apprehensively awaiting somebody ‘settling scores’ with you for your last violent attack on him!!!
    Sin could also see you in a doctor’s surgery awaiting the prognosis for any number of life-threatening or incurable illnesses caused by your sexual incontinence or you could be awaiting arraignment before the courts for debts that you incurred through sinful greed.
    …..or you could just end up being a lonely old person abandoned by everyone who might have loved you, because you had been so sinfully selfish…..that you have become a parody of your hatred for both God and man!!!

    The wages of sin IS a nightmare of death and disease…….and the only known antidote to sin is God’s free gift of salvation……..which is eternal !!!

    It’s a ‘no brainer’ to choose salvation over sin!!!!!

    Salvation is where Man’s free will to love and God’s sovereign ability to save MEET!!!

    ……and let there be not doubt about God’s ability AND willingness to save ALL who believe on Him!!!

    I love you all!!!:)


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    #80
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Mmm...popcorn.

    diverted,
    Scofflaw


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    #81
    Binomate
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,783 ✭✭✭Binomate


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    Either way a true Christian will be recognized by the fruits of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
    Yeah, you're right. I believe that every other religion is full of grumpy, evil, non-believers as well. I completely agree with you. Christianity is the only way in to the kingdom of heaven.


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    #82
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Not sure.
    J C wrote: »
    IF a person is saved, Satan can have no hold on him/her……because he/she is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

    The situation you are describing isn’t ‘backsliding’ but that of an unsaved person ‘sliding’ deeper into sin.....and Satan's clutches!!

    The unsaved CANNOT BACKSLIDE deeper into sin and the Satans clutches, they are CONDEMED already! They never came to the truth in the first place so how can they backslide?.

    "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God". John 3:18
    J C wrote: »
    The devils devouring DOESN’T include everybody (i.e. the saved and the unsaved).
    The devil is the adversary of the saved (and Jesus Christ) for the eternal lives of the unsaved.
    Satan can ONLY devour the unsaved…….and it is the duty of the saved to remain ‘awake and sober’ like a lifeguard to try and help save the lost from Satan’s clutches!!!!!!
    The Devil is the adversary end of story, to the saved and unsaved and is quite capable of manipulating the minds of the saved, we are WARNED as in Ephesians to protect ourselves from his tactics.

    "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil, for we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high, wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand" Ephesians 6vs12.
    J C wrote: »
    The people who hold to a full ‘works based’ salvation ALSO recognise that EVERYONE will have unrepeated sins when they die……and they have introduced the concept of Purgatory to purge these sins. The people who hold to a full ‘faith based’ salvation believe that ALL sins are forgiven at the moment a person is saved (including all future unrepeated sins). Your position however, means that we would NEITHER have the assurance of ‘eternal security’ through faith NOR the ability to purge un repented sin through works!! it is. the ‘worst of both possible worlds’ so to speak……and effectively denies the possibility of salvation by EITHER ‘works’ OR ‘faith’!

    When someone is initially "saved" by grace it is by faith alone in Jesus Christ and not by any works. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV
    However Gods plan to the saved in fact dose involve "works" such as preaching the Gospel to the unsaved and helping the needy. "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" James 2:14 This verse is telling us that when you have faith in God it will be seen in your works. See Ephesians 2:8-10. It does not say or imply that your good works produce salvation.

    The people who hold full based salvation have this illusion that they have a "blank cheque" written from God and can go around for the rest of their lives believing they are immune from their dirty sinful carnal habits. On the other hand I believe all my future sins are forgiven only if I confess them and remain living the rest of my life in accordance to Gods plan.
    J C wrote: »
    Of course, the Christian strives to avoid sin…..and confesses and repents of any sin that they may be aware that they have committed…..and anyone who denies they are a sinner is a liar…….
    ……..BUT a person’s salvation does NOT depend on repenting of EVERY sin ……because the saved are under God’s Grace ……. they are NOT under His Judgement………which would condemn them for their sins…..IF they weren’t saved!!!!
    All sin is of the Devil to both to the saved or unsaved and will be punished even more so for the "saved" that has sinned after his initial calling because he knows well that he is transgressing against God.
    J C wrote: »
    Luke 13:3 was addressed to the unsaved.
    To be saved you MUST repent and believe on Jesus Christ to forgive all of your sin.
    Once you are saved you SHOULD repent of sin to avoid further temporal punishment for it and to avoid scandal and because you love God and are sorry for the affront that you have caused to Him and your fellow man.
    Are you are talking of a non existent "temporal punishment"? Do I smell purgatory??
    J C wrote: »
    It is up to me to endure to the end and not fall away.
    You make it sound like an endurance test or a marathon!!!
    Salvation is a loving relationship between God and Man…….and NOT a loveless marathon marriage of convenience and endurance!!!.
    You have obviously never read 1 Corinthians 9

    "Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.

    "Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize".
    J C wrote: »
    and your salvation is not ‘up to you’…….but an UNMERITED free gift from God
    Your salvation is up to you, If do not continue to walk in Gods plan after you are initially saved you will suffer the consequences."And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matthew 25vs30
    J C wrote: »
    A fair and reasonable summary……….only I won’t be merely ‘enduring’ to the end ……I will be joyously proclaiming the reality of God’s saving grace and my assured salvation to all who will listen!!!!
    Again but this time KJV. "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air", 1 Corintians9

    And But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.Matthew 24 vs13.
    J C wrote: »
    The wages of sin IS a nightmare of death and disease…….and the only known antidote to sin is God’s free gift of salvation……..which is eternal !!! .
    The wages of Sin is Death, end of story, to both the saved and unsaved. The only known antidote to sin is REPENTANCE to and pleading to God for forgiveness each time you are convicted of it.


  • Options
    #83
    mismi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3 ✭mismi


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    The comment from PDN in previous thread reminded me of a docterine I believe is false, ie once saved always saved. (OSAS) I believe a Christian can loose their salvation if they delibertly engages in sinful activity and refuse to repent and if he dies in his sin he is worse off than someone who has never known Christ in the first place. IE. "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth".(Matthew 25:30) However I believe no matter how bad a person has fallen away our lord will always accept a repentant sinner.

    I believe that if someone continues to engage in a sinful activity and feels no remorse or sorrow for it, if they use the Gospel to hide behind to make themselves LOOK like they are a struggling Christian as so many of us are...then they probably were never a True Believer to begin with. I do believe that if you are truly repentant and active Christian that no matter how hard it is to fight your sin - you will do so - sooner or later and you will be truly sorrowful for your sins. But once you have been convicted of your sins and are truly repentant you are saved - no matter how many times you sin afterwards. There must be a posture of sincere repentance that is practiced though.


  • Options
    #84
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.
    Originally Posted by J C
    The situation you are describing isn’t ‘backsliding’ but that of an unsaved person ‘sliding’ deeper into sin.....and Satan's clutches!!

    Run for da hills
    The unsaved CANNOT BACKSLIDE deeper into sin and the Satans clutches, they are CONDEMED already! They never came to the truth in the first place so how can they backslide?.

    Please read what I said……….I said that the unsaved can SLIDE deeper into sin and Satan’s clutches!!

    …….obviously only the saved can BACKSLIDE!!!:)


    Run for da hills
    The Devil is the adversary end of story, to the saved and unsaved and is quite capable of manipulating the minds of the saved, we are WARNED as in Ephesians to protect ourselves from his tactics.

    "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil, for we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high, wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand" Ephesians 6vs12.

    The Devil is the adversary of the saved……….for the eternal lives of the unsaved!!!

    ….and WHAT is the ‘whole armour of God’ ?

    …surely it is being saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God!!!:cool:


    Run for da hills
    When someone is initially "saved" by grace it is by faith alone in Jesus Christ and not by any works. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV
    However Gods plan to the saved in fact dose involve "works" such as preaching the Gospel to the unsaved and helping the needy. "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" James 2:14 This verse is telling us that when you have faith in God it will be seen in your works. See Ephesians 2:8-10. It does not say or imply that your good works produce salvation.

    I agree that good works don’t produce salvation……so WHY do you believe that ‘works’ are required to restore your salvation when you sin AFTER you are saved?

    We are saved through FAITH…….and we perform works BECAUSE we are saved!!!

    Faith is the CAUSE of our salvation …….and works are the RESULT!!!:)


    Run for da hills
    The people who hold full (faith) based salvation have this illusion that they have a "blank cheque" written from God and can go around for the rest of their lives believing they are immune from their dirty sinful carnal habits. On the other hand I believe all my future sins are forgiven only if I confess them and remain living the rest of my life in accordance to Gods plan.

    I have already said that we are NOT immune from our sins…….we will suffer physical punishment (up to and including physical death) for them.

    The problem that you have with believing that your sins are only forgiven if you confess them ALL is the same problem that all ‘works’ based believers have…….so HOW will your unrepented sins be forgiven after you die???


    Run for da hills
    All sin is of the Devil to both to the saved or unsaved and will be punished even more so for the “saved” that has sinned after his initial calling because he knows well that he is transgressing against God.

    …..so if we take that belief to it’s logical conclusion we would all be better off postponing our salvation until our last dying breath…….or, even better still, have somebody else praying for us AFTER we die to have our sins remitted!!!!


    Run for da hills
    Are you are talking of a non existent "temporal punishment"? Do I smell purgatory??

    The temporal punishment for sin (death, disease, disaster, destruction of mind and body, etc) is very real……..and you receive this punishment WHILE YOU ARE STILL ALIVE……
    .........unlike Purgatory…..which (‘works’ based believers) think they will endure AFTER they die (in order to 'purge' their inevitable unrepented sins)!!!


    Run for da hills
    If do not continue to walk in Gods plan after you are initially saved you will suffer the consequences."And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matthew 25vs30

    The ‘unprofitable servant’ obviously was NEVER saved ……..and he didn’t bother to promote the things of God in either his own life and the lives of others!!!!


    Run for da hills
    Again but this time KJV. "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air",

    Yes, we should contend for Jesus against the works of the Devil…….and we have the certainty of our salvation to support us!!!!


    Run for da hills
    The wages of Sin is Death, end of story, to both the saved and unsaved. The only known antidote to sin is REPENTANCE to and pleading to God for forgiveness each time you are convicted of it.

    The wages of sin is physical death………and the gift of God is eternal life for those who believe on Him!!!:)


  • Options
    #85
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Not sure.
    J C wrote: »
    and WHAT is the ‘whole armour of God’ ?
    Continue on to the next verse of Ephesians 14 to 17 it describes the Armour of God.

    "Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness, and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace, Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God":
    J C wrote: »
    I agree that good works don’t produce salvation……so WHY do you believe that ‘works’ are required to restore your salvation when you sin AFTER you are saved?
    We are commanded to preach the Gospel to the unsaved.these are works of which we are Judged on, hense "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matthew 25vs30.
    J C wrote: »
    We are saved through FAITH…….and we perform works BECAUSE we are saved!!! Faith is the CAUSE of our salvation …….and works are the RESULT!!!:
    and again, we are Judged on those works, ie helping the poor etc,
    Read the Story (Not parable) of Lazarus and the Rich man (luke 16).
    "What does it profit, my brethren, though a man say he has faith, and have not works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what does it profit? Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone". (James 2:14-17) Martin luter himself had difficulty with this verse.
    J C wrote: »
    I have already said that we are NOT immune from our sins…….we will suffer physical punishment (up to and including physical death) for them.

    The problem that you have with believing that your sins are only forgiven if you confess them ALL is the same problem that all ‘works’ based believers have…….so HOW will your unrepented sins be forgiven after you die???
    The Holy Spirit cannot operate in the life of the person if there is sin present, If the Holy Spirit leaves that person it leaves a void and satan returns and takes control again, he looses interest in reading the Bible, he no longer prays or has fellowship,attends church backsliding is a process. It is not something that comes "overnight" The Backslider has accumilated so much sin in his life that he no longer feels guilty when he sins, this is the dangerous stage of that person dying in his sins. In fact a Backslider can become in a WORSE position than he was before he was saved...

    Read Matthew 12:43-45

    "When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none, Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first

    A saved Person who is "walking with christ" day to day knows exactly where he stands.
    J C wrote: »
    [
    All sin is of the Devil to both to the saved or unsaved and will be punished even more so for the “saved” that has sinned after his initial calling because he knows well that he is transgressing against God.

    …..so if we take that belief to it’s logical conclusion we would all be better off postponing our salvation until our last dying breath…….or, even better still, have somebody else praying for us AFTER we die to have our sins remitted!!!!
    It is best not to fall back at all and suffer the concequences.

    J C wrote: »
    Are you are talking of a non existent "temporal punishment"? Do I smell purgatory??

    The temporal punishment for sin (death, disease, disaster, destruction of mind and body, etc) is very real……..and you receive this punishment WHILE YOU ARE STILL ALIVE unlike Purgatory which (‘works’ based believers) think they will endure AFTER they die
    Anyone can also suffer from death, disease, disaster, destruction of mind and body whether they sin or not or whether they are saved or not. I dont know where you are getting this from.
    J C wrote: »
    If do not continue to walk in Gods plan after you are initially saved you will suffer the consequences."And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matthew 25vs30

    The ‘unprofitable servant’ obviously was NEVER saved ……..and he didn’t bother to promote the things of God in either his own life and the lives of others!!!!
    The parable of the unprofitable servant is about Judgment based on what you do with what you've been given.
    J C wrote: »
    The wages of Sin is Death, end of story, to both the saved and unsaved. The only known antidote to sin is REPENTANCE to and pleading to God for forgiveness each time you are convicted of it.

    The wages of sin is physical death………and the gift of God is eternal life for those who believe on Him.
    Dont forger there is such thing as the second death! But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


  • Options
    #86
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Continue on to the next verse of Ephesians 14 to 17 it describes the Armour of God.

    "Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness, and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace, Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God":
    We are commanded to preach the Gospel to the unsaved.these are works of which we are Judged on, hense "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matthew 25vs30.
    .......just the characteristics of being saved and indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    and again, we are Judged on those works, ie helping the poor etc,
    Read the Story (Not parable) of Lazarus and the Rich man (luke 16).
    "What does it profit, my brethren, though a man say he has faith, and have not works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what does it profit? Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone". (James 2:14-17) Martin luter himself had difficulty with this verse.

    I do not deny the importance of good works........

    ......but we are SAVED through FAITH…….and we perform works BECAUSE we are saved!!!
    Faith is the CAUSE of our salvation …….and works are the RESULT!!!:
    It would be 'putting the cart before the horse' to hold that works are the CAUSE of our salvation!!!
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    The Holy Spirit cannot operate in the life of the person if there is sin present, If the Holy Spirit leaves that person it leaves a void and satan returns and takes control again, he looses interest in reading the Bible, he no longer prays or has fellowship,attends church backsliding is a process. It is not something that comes "overnight" The Backslider has accumilated so much sin in his life that he no longer feels guilty when he sins, this is the dangerous stage of that person dying in his sins. In fact a Backslider can become in a WORSE position than he was before he was saved...

    Read Matthew 12:43-45

    "When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none, Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first

    The Holy Spirit PERMANENTLY indwells the saved person (who has a sinful body that eventually physically dies)!!!

    The man in Mt 12:43-45 was possessed and cured of his possession .....but he wasn't saved.....and so he remained 'fair game' for re-possession by demons!!!

    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    A saved Person who is "walking with christ" day to day knows exactly where he stands.

    It is best not to fall back at all and suffer the concequences.

    A saved person knows that s/he is saved!!!

    It is certainly best to AVOID sin.......but the just man 'falls' one hundred times a day!!!!

    It is one of the ironies that the unsaved generally think of themselves as 'good people' not in need of salvation while the saved think of themselves as 'sinful people' not deserving of salvation!!!

    Funny thing, but the 'sinful wretches' who are saved, tend NOT to be judgemental or legalistic......they are just glad to be saved......and they are more than happy to leave the judgement of the unsaved and the outworking of the Moral Law to God!!!
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Anyone can also suffer from death, disease, disaster, destruction of mind and body whether they sin or not or whether they are saved or not. I dont know where you are getting this from.

    The sinful bodies of BOTH the saved AND the unsaved suffer from death, disease, disaster, destruction of mind and body......it is a result of the Fall......but it's effects can be increased by a sinful lifestyle.
    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    The parable of the unprofitable servant is about Judgment based on what you do with what you've been given.
    The parable of the unprofitable servant is about Judgment based on what you DON'T do with what you've been given.....and the unsaved DON'T avail of the offer of salvation......and are thus 'unprofitable' to God!!

    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Dont forget there is such thing as the second death! But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    .......and such as these were many Christians BEFORE they were saved!!!

    EVERYONE suffers (the first) death....and AFTERWARDS the saved enter everlasting life.....with the unsaved suffering the second death of eternal perdition!!!

    .....just remember ....... you gotta have FAITH.....and everything else will follow!!!

    .......I will be away in Europe for the next week......God Bless you all!!


  • Options
    #87
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Not sure.
    J C wrote: »
    I do not deny the importance of good works.but we are SAVED through FAITH and we perform works BECAUSE we are saved!!! Faith is the CAUSE of our salvation …….and works are the RESULT!!!:
    It would be 'putting the cart before the horse' to hold that works are the CAUSE of our salvation!!!!!
    Faith without works is DEAD quoting from James again.
    J C wrote: »
    The Holy Spirit PERMANENTLY indwells the saved person (who has a sinful body that eventually physically dies)!!!!!!!!

    The Prodigal Son also clearly refutes both strands of OSAS.

    In Luke 15vs11to32, we learn that the younger of two sons desired to depart from the Father’s presence and be with the prostitutes. After he spent all his money and was in great distress, he came to his senses (v. 17). He then turned from his sins (repented), was willing to admit that he had sinned and went back into the presence of the Father to work for (or serve) him. This resulted in a feast of celebration. The Father said:

    "And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
    For this my son was DEAD, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry". Luke 23,24.

    From Jesus’ teaching we learn:

    (1) A true son of the Father can become spiritually dead and lost because of sinning.

    (2) No man plucked the Prodigal out of the Father’s hand, but the Father let him walk away to his own spiritual harm, even to the place where he became lost.

    (3) The Father did not strike the Prodigal dead physically before he became spirituallylost.

    (4) The Prodigal was sealed until the day of redemption, like other children of God, but he still died and became spiritually lost because of wild living and sexual immorality.

    (5) The Father’s love for his son didn’t prevent him from becoming spiritually dead and lost through sin.

    (6) The Father always remained faithful, but sin still put God’s son to death.

    (7) The Father didn’t leave or forsake him, but he left and forsook the Father. The Father let him go.

    (8) After he repented, he became alive again, which implies his spiritual condition went as follows: spiritually alive—then spiritually dead or lost—then spiritually alive again.

    The important point the Father was emphasizing in verses 24 and 32 was the complete reversal of the Prodigal’s spiritual condition, now that he repented. He went from dead to alive again, which is equated in the same sentence as going from lost to found. Hence, there is great reason to rejoice over such a sinner that repents, as already mentioned two separate times in this same chapter.

    It also shows he got saved again through repentance after he became lost.

    Similarly, Rom. 11:23 says, "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again." Rom. 11:23
    J C wrote: »
    It is certainly best to AVOID sin but the just man 'falls' one hundred times a day!!!!!!!!!
    Its best to avoud sin because it causes Spiritual DEATH!
    J C wrote: »

    The sinful bodies of BOTH the saved AND the unsaved suffer from death, disease, disaster, destruction of mind and body......it is a result of the Fall......but it's effects can be increased by a sinful lifestyle.
    I would agree with you there, certainly a sexually permiscous person will have a higher chance of pick up STDs than someone with one partner (Profided his/her partner is faithful!). Or someone involved in serious drug dealing or robbery has more chance of being bumped off.

    Judas Iscariot went astray from his former condition of being saved and also clearly refutes any strand of OSAS

    If Judas was never saved then Jesus sent an unsaved man along with the rest of the Twelve, to preach his gospel, heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse leprosy and drive out demons (Mt. 10:7,8)! Mk. 3:14,15 state that the Twelve, including Judas, were given spiritual authority by Jesus to drive out demons.

    Would Jesus give an unsaved man the same type of spiritual authority along with the unquestionably saved apostles, to likewise be his holy representative? Never!!!

    For a person to say that Judas was never saved is to say, unwittingly, that Jesus chose a child of the devil to be his holy representative, which is borderline blasphemy.

    Judas was once a saved man who preached the Gospel, healed the sick, then went astray and ended up in eternal fire, after he betrayed Jesus and committed suicide.

    Judas once had eternal life like the rest of the Twelve! In spite of this, he was doomed to destruction after his death. There was no OSAS for the Apostle Judas and likewise to anyone else who falls away.

    Enjoy Europe.


  • Options
    #88
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.
    Run to da hills
    Faith without works is DEAD quoting from James again.

    I agree…………BUT that doesn’t disprove my Biblically based contention that Faith is the CAUSE of our salvation …….and works are the RESULT!!!!


    Run to da hills
    The Prodigal Son also clearly refutes both strands of OSAS.

    In Luke 15vs11to32, we learn that the younger of two sons desired to depart from the Father’s presence and be with the prostitutes. After he spent all his money and was in great distress, he came to his senses (v. 17). He then turned from his sins (repented), was willing to admit that he had sinned and went back into the presence of the Father to work for (or serve) him. This resulted in a feast of celebration. The Father said:

    "And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: For this my son was DEAD, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry". Luke 23,24.

    The parable of the Prodigal Son is about a fallen Humanity, separated from God through their own foolishness. It illustrates God’s unending love for us, no matter what we have done…..and His willingness to save us once we repent and turn to Him in faith!!!

    We are DEAD and lost BEFORE we are saved…..but what amazing grace that saved a (sinful) wretch like me!!!:D


    Run to da hills
    From Jesus’ teaching we learn:

    (1) A true son of the Father can become spiritually dead and lost because of sinning.

    The parable was used by Jesus Christ PRIMARILY to illustrate the mercy and love of God …….and it is only tangentially relevant to salvation
    As the resultant products of God's Direct Creation of Adam and Eve, we are ALL children of God…….some spiritually dead and lost……others spiritually alive and saved!!!


    Run to da hills
    (2) No man plucked the Prodigal out of the Father’s hand, but the Father let him walk away to his own spiritual harm, even to the place where he became lost.

    The Prodigal son wasn’t in the father’s hand to begin with…….he was obviously a very headstrong (and fallen) young man…..who eventually realised the insanity of his position and lifestyle ….. and came to his senses…….and turned with repentance and faith to his father in order to change his lifestyle.


    Run to da hills
    (3) The Father did not strike the Prodigal dead physically before he became spiritually lost.

    …and God does not physically kill the spiritually lost either…….otherwise, as everyone is originally lost, nobody would be saved.
    God is ever patient……but He allows us all to suffer the physical consequences of our lifestyles and our sinful acts....and those of others.
    Some people, like the Prodigal, realise that they need to change and they decide to be saved……while others continue on their (not so) ‘merry ways’!!!


    Run to da hills
    (4) The Prodigal was sealed until the day of redemption, like other children of God, but he still died and became spiritually lost because of wild living and sexual immorality.

    ……The Prodigal didn’t actually exist……..it was just a parable to illustrate the mercy and love of God!!!


    Run to da hills
    (5) The Father’s love for his son didn’t prevent him from becoming spiritually dead and lost through sin.

    ….just like God’s love for EVERY Human DOESN’T save them…….unless they repent and believe on Him to save them!!!


    Run to da hills
    (6) The Father always remained faithful, but sin still put God’s son to death.

    …..God is faithful and just……saving all who believe on Him and judging all who don’t…........
    .....and EVERY person physically dies because of the effects of sin.


    Run to da hills
    (7) The Father didn’t leave or forsake him, but he left and forsook the Father. The Father let him go.

    ……just like Adam forsook God……but God didn’t forsake Mankind …..but remained faithful to His promise to send a Saviour for Humanity, the man Jesus Christ!!!


    Run to da hills
    (8) After he repented, he became alive again, which implies his spiritual condition went as follows: spiritually alive—then spiritually dead or lost—then spiritually alive again.

    The Prodigal Son was 'lost' and 'became alive again' to his father…….just like Humanity is lost but individuals can become alive again to God by being saved!!!


    Run to da hills
    The important point the Father was emphasizing in verses 24 and 32 was the complete reversal of the Prodigal’s spiritual condition, now that he repented. He went from dead to alive again, which is equated in the same sentence as going from lost to found. Hence, there is great reason to rejoice over such a sinner that repents, as already mentioned two separate times in this same chapter.

    There is of course great reason to celebrate when a sinner repents and is saved under OSAS……but IF his next sin were to unsave him (as you maintain) then there would be no reason to bother celebrating……you would need to wait until Judgement Day to really find out if he was saved at all!!!!:eek::)


    Originally Posted by J C
    It is certainly best to AVOID sin but the just man 'falls' one hundred times a day!!!!!!!!!

    Run to da hills
    Its best to avoid sin because it causes Spiritual DEATH!

    It is best to be saved from sin by believing on Jesus Christ ……and to avoid sin thereafter to minimise the effects of the Fall on your life!!!
    The saved are spiritually alive and the unsaved are spiritually dead……but they BOTH occupy sinful bodies……and the bodies of the saved will only become glorious after Christ’s return!!!


    Originally Posted by J C
    The sinful bodies of BOTH the saved AND the unsaved suffer from death, disease, disaster, destruction of mind and body......it is a result of the Fall......but it's effects can be increased by a sinful lifestyle

    Run to da hills
    I would agree with you there, certainly a sexually permiscous person will have a higher chance of pick up STDs than someone with one partner (Profided his/her partner is faithful!). Or someone involved in serious drug dealing or robbery has more chance of being bumped off.

    …and that is one of the reasons why BOTH the saved and the unsaved should avoid sin!!!!!

    …..but a 'squeaky clean' life will be all in vain for the unsaved, unless the believe on Jesus Christ to save them!!!


    Run to da hills
    Judas Iscariot went astray from his former condition of being saved and also clearly refutes any strand of OSAS

    If Judas was never saved then Jesus sent an unsaved man along with the rest of the Twelve, to preach his gospel, heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse leprosy and drive out demons (Mt. 10:7,8)! Mk. 3:14,15 state that the Twelve, including Judas, were given spiritual authority by Jesus to drive out demons.

    Would Jesus give an unsaved man the same type of spiritual authority along with the unquestionably saved apostles, to likewise be his holy representative? Never!!!

    Never!!.... Never!!.... Never!!!.......now where did I hear that word before???:eek::D

    Anyway, the ability to cast out demons in Jesus Christ’s name prior to His death and resurrection was not confined to any particular group, as Lk 9:49 illustrates “and John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.”

    As I have already said NOBODY could be saved before Jesus had died on the cross for sin…..so NOBODY, including Judas and the other eleven apostles, were saved when Jesus sent them forth in Mt 10:5.


    Run to da hills
    For a person to say that Judas was never saved is to say, unwittingly, that Jesus chose a child of the devil to be his holy representative, which is borderline blasphemy.

    Jesus has NO saved people to choose from before He died…..and Jesus even confirmed that PETER was an unsaved ‘child of the devil’ in Mt 16:23 “But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.”
    … it is actually incorrect, to believe that people were saved BEFORE Jesus Christ had died to save them!!!:)


    Run to da hills
    Judas was once a saved man who preached the Gospel, healed the sick, then went astray and ended up in eternal fire, after he betrayed Jesus and committed suicide.

    Judas may well have done good works under the power and authority of Jesus Christ .......but neither he nor any of the other Apostles were saved BEFORE Jesus died!!!


    Run to da hills
    Judas once had eternal life like the rest of the Twelve! In spite of this, he was doomed to destruction after his death. There was no OSAS for the Apostle Judas and likewise to anyone else who falls away

    There was no OSAS for Judas because he was never saved in the first place!!!:D


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    #89
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    JC and RTDH, could I be very cheeky and ask why the two of you can't agree on wheter OSAS is true? Could it be you aren't qualified to interpret scripture for yourselves in the same way that I'm not qualified? I dare suggest that you're missing half of the picture i.e. Sacred Tradition. There, I've said it now :)
    Since you haven't (yet) answered my question to you in post #95 of the Discovering the Truth thread, let me post it here again as it deals directly with your assertion:
    kelly1 said:

    Quote:
    James 5 shows that priests had the power to forgive sins

    14 Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church

    I'm sorry not to have responded to your most interesting posts earlier, but I have been busy on another thread and am now restricted by time.

    Let me ask two brief questions however:
    1. What version are you using that translates the Greek presbuteros as priests? The word means elders, not priests. The Greek for priests is hiereus.

    2. You originally said:     Quote:
    Up to the time of the Reformation, there was only one Christian Church whose teachings never changed (and still haven't changed).

    Of course you have forgotten the Eastern Church, which split with Rome long before the Reformation; and the many believer-only churches that were hounded to death by the RCC down the centuries before the Reformation. But the question I want to ask from your statement is this:
    Are all the teachings of the Popes infallible? If not, how do we know which ones are and which ones aren't? Does that not put you in at least as much difficulty as the Protestants?

    Thanks.


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    #90
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Not sure.
    Eternal security implies a 'license' to sin without consequences, Eternal security is detrimental to the cause of Christ and those who teach eternal security advance the cause of Satan.

    "Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men".Matthew 5:13
    note that Christ is speaking to His disciples here, ie the saved and not the world.

    "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" Matthew 7:21notice it's not enough merely to know that he is Lord (or even to call him that), but we must "do" the will of God.


    Luke 9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
    it is interesting that Christ used the term "cast away"- this term is used by the apostle Paul in I Cor. as well, and refers to the special punishment of an apostate believer.

    "Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God". Acts 14:22
    the early church knew it was important to CONTINUE in the faith. They didn't merely hold an evangelistic crusade, and send the folks on their way with an easy-believism message, they CONFIRMED the souls of the disciples and exhorted them to "CONTINUE IN THE FAITH". (Doesn't this sound so contrary to the watered-down gospel that is preached today)

    I Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. remember the letter is addressed to believers, and yet why all the warnings if there were/are no consequences.


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    #91
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Eternal security implies a 'license' to sin without consequences, Eternal security is detrimental to the cause of Christ and those who teach eternal security advance the cause of Satan.

    I disagree with you here.

    Eternal security allows me to live my life without the shackles of law or rules.

    I live life according to the promptings of the Holy Spirit and prayer for the ability to discern the Spirits will.


    We are being transformed into the image of Christ, by the Holy Spirit. I'm not there yet, I will sin, but I don't have to get my knickers in a twist over whether or not I'm saved.

    I know this because my heart lies with God. My lifestyle shows that and the fruits of teh spirit bears it.


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