Gerry Adams, Leader of Opposition

3ndahalfof6 · 21-02-2011 8:19pm

Adrian009 wrote: »

But what's the point of a united Ireland?

Especially when a united country called Ireland already exists?

Over one hundred years of northern unionism has shown that about a million people in Northern Ireland do not want to join the Irish state. Fair enough, say we. We're in no hurry to shove them in.

the island is called Ireland split into two populated areas trying to come together to create a united Ireland.

Adrian009 · 21-02-2011 8:19pm

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

the island is called Ireland split into two populated areas trying to come together to create a united Ireland.

But WHY?

Wolfe Tone · 21-02-2011 8:20pm

Adrian009 wrote: »

Despite the fact that they supported the murder of thousands of our fellow Irish people?

Thats a disingenuous way to look at it.

stuckin · 21-02-2011 8:21pm

I'm sorry Adrian, but you have nothing but double standards...

Adrian009 wrote: »

I know he's Irish, but he's from Northern Ireland, not Ireland. Surely he should at least live here if he's gonna be elected? And seeing as he lives in West Belfast (UK) then why the hell does he have an Irish passport? Since when?

He has an Irish passport like anyone else from the 6 counties who wants one. That has been the case since the Belfast Agreement in 1998

Adrian009 wrote: »

But he's not even an Irish NATIONAL! He's an Irishman from the UK! Sure as hell its an issue!

Adrian009 wrote: »

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Whats your opinion on the president being from the north? Everyone on this island is entitled to be an Irish citizen.

Sure, but nobody on this island is entitled to support or condone murder.

Adrian009 wrote: »

FG can go on all they want about the Big Fella, but I want to hear their big plans for fixing the economy.

So you have no issue with the President (from Belfast) being considered an Irish citizen but you do have a problem with Gerry (from Belfast) being considered Irish
You don't have a problem with the President being President of Ireland despite the fact that she's born in Belfast, but you do have a problem with Gerry being a TD because he's born in Belfast
You do have a problem with SF not outright condemning violence in every situation, but you don't have a problem with FG not outright condemning violence in every scenario.

Adrian009 · 21-02-2011 8:21pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Thats a disingenuous way to look at it.

Why, because calling it murder inconvinences Sinn Fein?

3ndahalfof6 · 21-02-2011 8:23pm

Adrian009 wrote: »

But WHY?

why is it split or why is it going to be a united Ireland or why is the island called Ireland

it was a loaded question.

Wolfe Tone · 21-02-2011 8:25pm

Adrian009 wrote: »

Why, because calling it murder inconvinences Sinn Fein?

Because you are firing away with those figures and claims and making no mention of the context in which they occurred.

Adrian009 · 21-02-2011 8:25pm

stuckin wrote: »

I'm sorry Adrian, but you have nothing but double standards...

He has an Irish passport like anyone else from the 6 counties who wants one. That has been the case since the Belfast Agreement in 1998

So you have no issue with the President (from Belfast) being considered an Irish citizen but you do have a problem with Gerry (from Belfast) being considered Irish
You don't have a problem with the President being President of Ireland despite the fact that she's born in Belfast, but you do have a problem with Gerry being a TD because he's born in Belfast
You do have a problem with SF not outright condemning violence in every situation, but you don't have a problem with FG not outright condemning violence in every scenario.

Okay, didn't know he had an Irish passport. To the best of my knowledge he had a British one.

No, I never had a probelm with Mary been President. As far as I know, despite been from the north, she was never a member of the IRA or supported them via Sinn Fein, for instance.

Gerry on the other hand at the very least endorsed the IRA and continues to do so today. I cannot see why I should vote for a man who excuses the murder of so many Irish people.

Adrian009 · 21-02-2011 8:26pm

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

why is it split or why is it going to be a united Ireland or why is the island called Ireland

it was a loaded question.

No, its quite simple. What is the point of a united Ireland?

3ndahalfof6 · 21-02-2011 8:30pm

Adrian009 wrote: »

No, its quite simple. What is the point of a united Ireland?

Ah OK that's the bit you want answered, at this moment and time its to finish off the job that was started,

that's all.

Adrian009 · 21-02-2011 8:31pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Because you are firing away with those figures and claims and making no mention of the context in which they occurred.

Okay, explain then the context of Bloody Friday, Enniskillin and the murder of Jean McConville, all actions acknowledged by the IRA. How did they help to convince people of the necessity of a United Ireland?

Adrian009 · 21-02-2011 8:33pm

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

Ah OK that's the bit you want answered, at this moment and time its to finish off the job that was started,

that's all.

I truely do not understand what you mean by the above.

I point out for the record that a majority of the people of Northern Ireland, and the overwhelming majority of the people of Ireland, do not support the unification of the two.

Wolfe Tone · 21-02-2011 8:34pm

Adrian009 wrote: »

I truely do not understand what you mean by the above.

I point out for the record that a majority of the people of Northern Ireland, and the overwhelming majority of the people of Ireland, do not support the unification of the two.

Thats not true, have a vote for a UI on an all island basis and we would be unified.

stuckin · 21-02-2011 8:37pm

Adrian009 wrote: »

What I mean is what I want to hear from FG and every candidate is a good plan for the economy.
If Enda had been a member of an outlawed terrorist organisation or supported it I'd think very carefully about giving him a vote.
But he did neither.
Gerry Adams has consistently supported the IRA, and is believed by most Irish people to have been on the IRA army council. Even if he was not, the fact that he supported an organisation who murdered thousands of Irish people gives me pause about supporting any SF candidate while he is party leader.
I mean, how sick would it be to place a man who supported the mass-murder of Irish people as a REPRESENTATIVE of the Irish people???

FG do support the mass murder of Irish people, they support Michael Collins as their hero. Whatever way you look at the situation, Michael Collins supported the firing of the first shots of the civil war. The civil war which led to the deaths of between 1000 and 3000 deaths on the republican side alone.

All I'm saying is that there is distinct double standards applied to political parties in this country. Labour are another example, no one asks about some of the leaders of Labour and they're connections with Sinn Fein The Workers Party, other wise known as Official Sinn Fein, who had connections with the Official SF. I'm not saying that I think they should be, but you can use the same degrees of separation depending on your persuasion.

Quite frankly I would like to see an end to these endless political cheap shots about peoples history, everyone has things from their past they want to white wash, lets get on with the issues rather than the beauty pageant style attacks.

On Adams as opposition. Yeah he might not be the best on economics, but thats what the Finance spokesman will be for. The leader of the party isn't always the most educated on every matter that comes before the Dail, otherwise there would be no need for spokesmen on individual sectors. I think as a whole, Adams would make a very good leader of the opposition, better than any hypocritical FF member being leader of the opposition

Adrian009 · 21-02-2011 8:37pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Thats not true, have a vote for a UI on an all island basis and we would be unified.

We did, it was the 1998 all-island vote on the Belfast Aggreement. Over 75% of all voters supported it. If this were not the case it would not have won.

Wolfe Tone · 21-02-2011 8:39pm

Adrian009 wrote: »

We did, it was the 1998 all-island vote on the Belfast Aggreement. Over 75% of all voters supported it. If this were not the case it would not have won.

Ah jeez. That wasnt a vote against a UI. Or for a UI, it was for a peaceful framework to achieve a UI

Adrian009 · 21-02-2011 8:42pm

stuckin wrote: »

FG do support the mass murder of Irish people, they support Michael Collins as their hero. Whatever way you look at the situation, Michael Collins supported the firing of the first shots of the civil war. The civil war which led to the deaths of between 1000 and 3000 deaths on the republican side alone.

All I'm saying is that there is distinct double standards applied to political parties in this country. Labour are another example, no one asks about some of the leaders of Labour and they're connections with Sinn Fein The Workers Party, other wise known as Official Sinn Fein, who had connections with the Official SF. I'm not saying that I think they should be, but you can use the same degrees of separation depending on your persuasion.

Quite frankly I would like to see an end to these endless political cheap shots about peoples history, everyone has things from their past they want to white wash, lets get on with the issues rather than the beauty pageant style attacks.

On Adams as opposition. Yeah he might not be the best on economics, but thats what the Finance spokesman will be for. The leader of the party isn't always the most educated on every matter that comes before the Dail, otherwise there would be no need for spokesmen on individual sectors. I think as a whole, Adams would make a very good leader of the opposition, better than any hypocritical FF member being leader of the opposition

You and I cannot do anything about the Civil War. Its over, and just about out of living memory. The Troubles happened in our lifetime. And Adams stance on the rights of a private army to kill at will who it will goes right to the heart of his credibility as a candidate. How can he be a credible upholder of Irish law when he cannot bring himself to condem the murders of Irish people? He either does, or does not.

Adrian009 · 21-02-2011 8:44pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Ah jeez. That wasnt a vote against a UI. Or for a UI, it was for a peaceful framework to achieve a UI

And it contained the concept that only by democratic means will such an entity come to exist. There is just not enough support for it, north or south, outside of SF homelands.

Wolfe Tone · 21-02-2011 8:45pm

Adrian009 wrote: »

And it contained the concept that only by democratic means will such an entity come to exist. There is just not enough support for it, north or south, outside of SF homelands.

/sigh

Every major party in the south supports a UI.

Adrian009 · 21-02-2011 8:48pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

/sigh

Every major party in the south supports a UI.

Sure, as an aspiration. Its not an issue that is at the heart of most Irish voters however, only members of SF. Perhaps its another hold-over from the past we should dump? After all, what good has chasing a united Ireland ever done us?

DonalK1981 · 21-02-2011 8:51pm

EithneMasterson wrote: »

Would hate to see Gerry adams get in...................we have had theives liars cheats wimps...................do we really need Murderer to the list

If he is a murderer why isn't or wasn't he convicted? By that logic Tony Blair, George Bush Sr. & Jr. and every other army chief/head of state can be called murderer. I will give my support to any body but Fianna Fail as they let this country down. To call any one a murderer, who hasn't been convicted of such, leaves yourself open to being sued for libel or slander. The whole 30 years of 'troubles' or 'war' whatever you label it, hopefully can be left in the past now. The people involved on both sides did terrible things, I don't agree with them, nor do I condone them, but I do understand that they believed in their respective causes. The entry of Sinn Fein or the equivalent loyalist political wings, into peaceful politics where something constructive can be achieved is and should be welcomed.

stuckin · 21-02-2011 8:51pm

Adrian009 wrote: »

You and I cannot do anything about the Civil War. Its over, and just about out of living memory. The Troubles happened in our lifetime. And Adams stance on the rights of a private army to kill at will who it will goes right to the heart of his credibility as a candidate. How can he be a credible upholder of Irish law when he cannot bring himself to condem the murders of Irish people? He either does, or does not.

The principal still remains. FG believe that in certain circumstances taking up arms is acceptable. So do SF. Now if you want to vote on the basis that they not support any violence, then I suggest you vote for Senator Norris if he runs for President, he is someone who actually sticks to the opinion of "no violence ever". Me, I feel that given the right circumstances violence can be a means to an end. If you disagree with that then fine, but you can't paint one side with that massive brush without getting the others as well.

As I say, FG are perfectly entitled to hold Collins as their hero and SF are perfectly entitled to say that the IRA were justified in some of their actions. I'm not going to judge either of them on those issues, because you're right, I wasn't there during the civil war, nor was I in the 6 counties during the war. Had I been there, I might have a differing view of them. All I can do, is base them on their policies they present at the moment and what they say they will do in the future

3ndahalfof6 · 21-02-2011 8:54pm

Adrian009 wrote: »

I truely do not understand what you mean by the above.

I point out for the record that a majority of the people of Northern Ireland, and the overwhelming majority of the people of Ireland, do not support the unification of the two.

well its good to see somebody finally stumped you (not hurting your limbs of course) what is this thread going to do if you go to the shop.

as for a united Ireland vote, I guess we will just have to wait and see,
when it happens

just like we will see what is going to happen if Ireland have to default, after spending the rest of the money they borrow still tyring to prop up the banks.

whats your take if the situation goes south and this has to happen, or do you think we should wait till it happens so we know its going to happen.

Adrian009 · 21-02-2011 8:56pm

DonalK1981 wrote: »

If he is a murderer why isn't or wasn't he convicted? By that logic Tony Blair, George Bush Sr. & Jr. and every other army chief/head of state can be called murderer. I will give my support to any body but Fianna Fail as they let this country down. To call any one a murderer, who hasn't been convicted of such, leaves yourself open to being sued for libel or slander. The whole 30 years of 'troubles' or 'war' whatever you label it, hopefully can be left in the past now. The people involved on both sides did terrible things, I don't agree with them, nor do I condone them, but I do understand that they believed in their respective causes. The entry of Sinn Fein or the equivalent loyalist political wings, into peaceful politics where something constructive can be achieved is and should be welcomed.

I've always wondered why, despite threatening to sue, Adams has never in fact brought a case to court against anyone who claims he is/was an member of the IRA.

My point is that even if he was not, he has been a staunch IRA supporter since he first came to public view. He has not condemed a single IRA action, or offered information that would lead to the arrest of members of the orgainisation. Despite the fact that he claims to represent the people of Ireland, the organisation he has supported killed thousands of Irish people.

So we are now in the position similar to having David Irving (Nazi apoligist) elected to the Knesset (Israeli Dail). That is, having Gerry Adams, IRA apoligist, representing Irish people in the Dail. Except those that he thought the IRA were right in killing.

Adrian009 · 21-02-2011 8:57pm

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

well its good to see somebody finally stumped you (not hurting your limbs of course) what is this thread going to do if you go to the shop.

as for a united Ireland vote, I guess we will just have to wait and see,
when it happens

just like we will see what is going to happen if Ireland have to default, after spending the rest of the money they borrow still tyring to prop up the banks.

whats your take if the situation goes south and this has to happen, or do you think we should wait till it happens so we know its going to happen.

I cannot persuade myself that they best course out of this mess lies with a party who okay'd the killing of other Irish people.

3ndahalfof6 · 21-02-2011 8:58pm

Adrian009 wrote: »

Sure, as an aspiration. Its not an issue that is at the heart of most Irish voters however, only members of SF. Perhaps its another hold-over from the past we should dump? After all, what good has chasing a united Ireland ever done us?

how hard it is to get it and when we do try to hold on to it with both hands.

3ndahalfof6 · 21-02-2011 9:00pm

Adrian009 wrote: »

I cannot persuade myself that they best course out of this mess lies with a party who okay'd the killing of other Irish people.

OK so which party are you standing for, you must be, you slipped the question.

Adrian009 · 21-02-2011 9:03pm

stuckin wrote: »

The principal still remains. FG believe that in certain circumstances taking up arms is acceptable. So do SF. Now if you want to vote on the basis that they not support any violence, then I suggest you vote for Senator Norris if he runs for President, he is someone who actually sticks to the opinion of "no violence ever". Me, I feel that given the right circumstances violence can be a means to an end. If you disagree with that then fine, but you can't paint one side with that massive brush without getting the others as well.

As I say, FG are perfectly entitled to hold Collins as their hero and SF are perfectly entitled to say that the IRA were justified in some of their actions. I'm not going to judge either of them on those issues, because you're right, I wasn't there during the civil war, nor was I in the 6 counties during the war. Had I been there, I might have a differing view of them. All I can do, is base them on their policies they present at the moment and what they say they will do in the future

The only Irish army I recognise is Oglaigh na hEireann, the Irish Defense Forces. To the best of my knowledge so do all the Irish political parties, except Sinn Fein, who supported the Provisional IRA. Who only 'deactivated' five years ago. Who killed a lot of Irish people.

Adrian009 · 21-02-2011 9:04pm

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

how hard it is to get it and when we do try to hold on to it with both hands.

But your 'we' appears to be totally out of step with the majority of people north and south.

Adrian009 · 21-02-2011 9:08pm

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

OK so which party are you standing for, you must be, you slipped the question.

I don't support any party. I vote for the least worst candidates, hoping they do their best. I cannot vote for Sinn Fein because they are unapoligetic about the IRA's mass murders of Irish people.

3ndahalfof6 · 21-02-2011 9:12pm

Adrian009 wrote: »

But your 'we' appears to be totally out of step with the majority of people north and south.

It does to you and I can understand that the better I get to know you,

but to flog this to death is not the way to go, when people vote on the issue then and only then can the reasons how or why be answered.

I look forward to the vote for a united Ireland and the next time we talk about this you will have 1 million new brothers and sisters.

and some good roads.

DonalK1981 · 21-02-2011 9:36pm

Adrian009 wrote: »

I know he's Irish, but he's from Northern Ireland, not Ireland. Surely he should at least live here if he's gonna be elected? And seeing as he lives in West Belfast (UK) then why the hell does he have an Irish passport? Since when?

The Irish Constitution allows anyone from the 32 counties stand for election.

johnmcdnl · 22-02-2011 3:14am

Adrian009 wrote: »

I cannot persuade myself that they best course out of this mess lies with a party who okay'd the killing of other Irish people.

sure hasn't every irish party been part responsible for the killing of irish people..

civil war anyone??

aren't labour and the OIRA conencted as well when you go back??

so basically all Irish parties have been responsible for killing other Irish people.. - just that FF/FG/Lab's involvement was a few years before SFs and most people can't rememebr the civil war now so it's not an issue is it???

ok - the greens haven't - we'll give them that much..

and I'm going to have to go here to prove a point - guns and guerrilla warfare is basically what brought the English to the treaty table back in the 1921 - if the provos had won and gotten a united Ireland would we hold them as national heroes today like we hold Collins today???

What the IRA did in the troubles is no different to what Collins and the IRA back in the war of independence did - yet is anyone going to say that Collins and DeValera should never have been let sit anywhere near the Dáil because of their past criminal activities...

after all Collins and Dev and the whole lot of the IRA back then were committing treason as well as murdering which is also against the law isn't it??? why is this any different to the situation today???

Adrian009 · 22-02-2011 3:40am

johnmcdnl wrote: »

sure hasn't every irish party been part responsible for the killing of irish people..

civil war anyone??

aren't labour and the OIRA conencted as well when you go back??

so basically all Irish parties have been responsible for killing other Irish people.. - just that FF/FG/Lab's involvement was a few years before SFs and most people can't rememebr the civil war now so it's not an issue is it???

ok - the greens haven't - we'll give them that much..

and I'm going to have to go here to prove a point - guns and guerrilla warfare is basically what brought the English to the treaty table back in the 1921 - if the provos had won and gotten a united Ireland would we hold them as national heroes today like we hold Collins today???

What the IRA did in the troubles is no different to what Collins and the IRA back in the war of independence did - yet is anyone going to say that Collins and DeValera should never have been let sit anywhere near the Dáil because of their past criminal activities...

after all Collins and Dev and the whole lot of the IRA back then were committing treason as well as murdering which is also against the law isn't it??? why is this any different to the situation today???

The difference today is we have a country of our own and, via the Good Friday aggreement, a political solution that over 75% of people north and south voted for. The IRA never gave people a choice. And a united Ireland has never been achieved by their means or any other.

I take your point, but there's nothing I can do about the war of independence or civil war. I can, however, make a choice about voting for a political party that endorsed murder as a political tool, despite widespread lack of support north and south. There is a reason that Sinn Fein's vote has gone up while the IRA were wound down. That means that if Sinn Fein is ever to become a real player in Irish politics (as opposed to Northern Irish politics), it has to renounce all that, just as Fianna Fail did in 1926. Mind you, that means they'll probably become Fianna Fail ...

Hannibal · 22-02-2011 3:55am

Adrian009 wrote: »

The difference today is we have a country of our own and, via the Good Friday aggreement, a political solution that over 75% of people north and south voted for. The IRA never gave people a choice. And a united Ireland has never been achieved by their means or any other.

I take your point, but there's nothing I can do about the war of independence or civil war. I can, however, make a choice about voting for a political party that endorsed murder as a political tool, despite widespread lack of support north and south. There is a reason that Sinn Fein's vote has gone up while the IRA were wound down. That means that if Sinn Fein is ever to become a real player in Irish politics (as opposed to Northern Irish politics), it has to renounce all that, just as Fianna Fail did in 1926. Mind you, that means they'll probably become Fianna Fail ...

When the split occured in the IRA in 1969 a United Ireland was at the back of their minds, more so the ethnic clensing what nationalist people were subject to in the 6 counties. Do you realise the SF only started standing for elections in 1980's? this explains why their vote has gone up and the fact that many more younger voters are voting for them.
"Murder" was never used as a political tool. You ignore Bloody Sunday and the Ballymurphy massacres, internment then wonder why nationalists ever joined the movement in such numbers. SF are on course to be the largest party in the next Stormont elections, this alone shows Adams and McGuinness to be probably the best Irish politicians of our time considering when they entered politics they werent allowed a proper vote.
Four senior members of the Labour party were previously members of the OIRA by the way to add to the previous violence by FF and FG so its not only SF.

sandmanporto · 22-02-2011 3:58am

fine gael are just a more boring version of fianna fail. Id like to see a labour/sinn féin government for a change.

Adrian009 · 22-02-2011 4:01am

Dotsey wrote: »

When the split occured in the IRA in 1969 a United Ireland was at the back of their minds, more so the ethnic clensing what nationalist people were subject to in the 6 counties. Do you realise the SF only started standing for elections in 1980's? this explains why their vote has gone up and the fact that many more younger voters are voting for them.
"Murder" was never used as a political tool. You ignore Bloody Sunday and the Ballymurphy massacres, internment then wonder why nationalists ever joined the movement in such numbers. SF are on course to be the largest party in the next Stormont elections, this alone shows Adams and McGuinness to be probably the best Irish politicians of our time considering when they entered politics they werent allowed a proper vote.
Four senior members of the Labour party were previously members of the OIRA by the way to add to the previous violence by FF and FG so its not only SF.

I don't care about what SF do in Northern Ireland because I have no vote up there, so I cannot affect them on their home ground. In any case its not my country.

Which senior members of Labour were OIRA members? To the best of my knowledge, no members of FF or FG participated in the IRA in any of its forms during the Troubles. Current members of Sinn Fein did.

johnmcdnl · 22-02-2011 4:09am

Adrian009 wrote: »

The difference today is we have a country of our own and, via the Good Friday aggreement, a political solution that over 75% of people north and south voted for. The IRA never gave people a choice. And a united Ireland has never been achieved by their means or any other.

I take your point, but there's nothing I can do about the war of independence or civil war. I can, however, make a choice about voting for a political party that endorsed murder as a political tool, despite widespread lack of support north and south. There is a reason that Sinn Fein's vote has gone up while the IRA were wound down. That means that if Sinn Fein is ever to become a real player in Irish politics (as opposed to Northern Irish politics), it has to renounce all that, just as Fianna Fail did in 1926. Mind you, that means they'll probably become Fianna Fail ...

and since the GFA how many times have we heard of a PIRA bombing???

The provos never gave the people a choice - once again I can point to the war of independence - what political mandate had that but of course I can't use that as a proper argument because that was back then so it's somehow different...
SF's vote has gone up since the IRA wound down because most people now accept that what's happened in the past has happened and are willing to move on...
Hasn't the IRA already renounced violence and said it's time for peace to pave the way to a united Ireland or something to that decree?? What's the last bombing/killing that Gerry Adams or any SF member has condoned??

I'm not here trying to say that everything the IRA did was right or just but it happened.. are you saying that Tony Blair is a war criminal who shouldn't be allowed to be a politican because when he was PM of England when the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandals occured he was in charge and therefore was responsible for every last thing that every soldier ever did while on duty..

but was fighting back after Bloody Sunday, Interment so blatantly wrong??

what's different about Libyans/Egyptians/Tunisians etc etc fighting back today when they see oppression in the system.. the difference is that today they seem to be winning the fight themselves in a fortnight with no effort.. The Brits fought back against the IRA which caused most of the violence...

if Ghadafi in Libya starts fighting back and a war ensues for 2-3 years will Ghadafi be right just because the law that is in place today backs him?? will the protesters be "terrorist murders" and whatever else you call the want to call the IRA today.... will the political wing that emerges to try to get peace and a resolution through democracy be ridiculed and it's leaders called terrorists like Gerry Adams is???

Times have moved on - SF/IRA aren't fighting the Brits with guns anymore last time I checked the news - they've accepted the will and democratic voice of the people today - when will you accept this and move on??

Adrian009 · 22-02-2011 4:18am

johnmcdnl wrote: »

and since the GFA how many times have we heard of a PIRA bombing???

The provos never gave the people a choice - once again I can point to the war of independence - what political mandate had that but of course I can't use that as a proper argument because that was back then so it's somehow different...
SF's vote has gone up since the IRA wound down because most people now accept that what's happened in the past has happened and are willing to move on...
Hasn't the IRA already renounced violence and said it's time for peace to pave the way to a united Ireland or something to that decree?? What's the last bombing/killing that Gerry Adams or any SF member has condoned??

I'm not here trying to say that everything the IRA did was right or just but it happened.. are you saying that Tony Blair is a war criminal who shouldn't be allowed to be a politican because when he was PM of England when the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandals occured he was in charge and therefore was responsible for every last thing that every soldier ever did while on duty..

but was fighting back after Bloody Sunday, Interment so blatantly wrong??

what's different about Libyans/Egyptians/Tunisians etc etc fighting back today when they see oppression in the system.. the difference is that today they seem to be winning the fight themselves in a fortnight with no effort.. The Brits fought back against the IRA which caused most of the violence...

if Ghadafi in Libya starts fighting back and a war ensues for 2-3 years will Ghadafi be right just because the law that is in place today backs him?? will the protesters be "terrorist murders" and whatever else you call the want to call the IRA today.... will the political wing that emerges to try to get peace and a resolution through democracy be ridiculed and it's leaders called terrorists like Gerry Adams is???

Times have moved on - SF/IRA aren't fighting the Brits with guns anymore last time I checked the news - they've accepted the will and democratic voice of the people today - when will you accept this and move on??

Because I cannot believe that people who supported the IRA can be good for Ireland.

There have been no PIRA bombings, true, but there have been murders by the IRA on people like MacCarthney and Quinn. Just because they have never been brought to justice yet does not mean they should always be unacountable for crime and/or supporting crimes. Otherwise why would we try people for crimes decades long after the fact, such as in the case of Catholic child abuse cases? People like that should never have been left in charge of such people in the first place. or the same reason I cannot support Sinn Fein because the same people who condoned and supported the IRA's murders are still running the party; I don't want to give them the chance to commit more crimes against Irish people.

Hannibal · 22-02-2011 3:59pm

Adrian009 wrote: »

I don't care about what SF do in Northern Ireland because I have no vote up there, so I cannot affect them on their home ground. In any case its not my country.

Which senior members of Labour were OIRA members? To the best of my knowledge, no members of FF or FG participated in the IRA in any of its forms during the Troubles. Current members of Sinn Fein did.

SF's home ground is the island of Ireland not just the north but the whole lot. Their head office is on Parnell Sq by the way.
I think Eamon Gilmore, Pat Rabbitte and Proinsias de Rossa are the more famous ones although they try gloss it over these days.
Check out what Charlie Haughey and Neil Blaney got upto in 1970 with the arms crisis. FG are a christian democratic party who pursued west-Brit policies through the troubles.

Adrian009 · 22-02-2011 6:10pm

Dotsey wrote: »

SF's home ground is the island of Ireland not just the north but the whole lot. Their head office is on Parnell Sq by the way.
I think Eamon Gilmore, Pat Rabbitte and Proinsias de Rossa are the more famous ones although they try gloss it over these days.
Check out what Charlie Haughey and Neil Blaney got upto in 1970 with the arms crisis. FG are a christian democratic party who pursued west-Brit policies through the troubles.

SF's main electoral base in the past thirty years has been in NI. Perhaps they may make significant gains in Ireland in this election, but the fact of the matter is the majority of the party and its leadership are Northern Irish, and view Irish issues there and here though northern eyes.

Well aware of Haughey and Blaney's exploits. Tell me more about the others. Not sure how to respond to your remark on FG except to say that they ran the state sucessfully during its first ten years, including sucessfully winning our only war as a state, and have been in government on and off since then. SF have yet to match this record.

K-9 · 22-02-2011 7:37pm

Dotsey wrote: »

SF's home ground is the island of Ireland not just the north but the whole lot. Their head office is on Parnell Sq by the way.
I think Eamon Gilmore, Pat Rabbitte and Proinsias de Rossa are the more famous ones although they try gloss it over these days.
Check out what Charlie Haughey and Neil Blaney got upto in 1970 with the arms crisis. FG are a christian democratic party who pursued west-Brit policies through the troubles.

Well Haughey and Blaney are now gone and DeRossa has some role in Europe I think.

I'm not that aware of Gilmore and Rabbitte's history in the OIRA.

Reilly616 · 22-02-2011 8:16pm

K-9 wrote: »

Well Haughey and Blaney are now gone and DeRossa has some role in Europe I think.

MEP.

Hannibal · 22-02-2011 8:30pm

Adrian009 wrote: »

Well aware of Haughey and Blaney's exploits. Tell me more about the others. Not sure how to respond to your remark on FG except to say that they ran the state sucessfully during its first ten years, including sucessfully winning our only war as a state, and have been in government on and off since then. SF have yet to match this record.

Gilmore, DeRossa and Rabbitte were members of OSF/OIRA then name change OSF/OIRA/WP then name change WP then another name change DL then that group absorbed into Labour, a party which as you can see had various names all of which was under the Army Council of the Official IRA mainly with Cathal Goulding and Tomas MacGiolla as leaders and were funded by what can only be described as murky methods some of which involved leaders travelling to North Korea for money.
There's no more/less proof about Gilmore's activity than there is of Gerry Adams' just the establishment and gutter press wont run with certain stories about the Labour party. Joe Duffy and Pat Kenny might be easy to fool but the questions still remain.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2010/1018/1224281343708.html

K-9 · 22-02-2011 8:58pm

Dotsey wrote: »

Gilmore, DeRossa and Rabbitte were members of OSF/OIRA then name change OSF/OIRA/WP then name change WP then another name change DL then that group absorbed into Labour, a party which as you can see had various names all of which was under the Army Council of the Official IRA mainly with Cathal Goulding and Tomas MacGiolla as leaders and were funded by what can only be described as murky methods some of which involved leaders travelling to North Korea for money.
There's no more/less proof about Gilmore's activity than there is of Gerry Adams' just the establishment and gutter press wont run with certain stories about the Labour party. Joe Duffy and Pat Kenny might be easy to fool but the questions still remain.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2010/1018/1224281343708.html

What armed campaign did the OIRA partake in?

Hannibal · 22-02-2011 9:10pm

K-9 wrote: »

What armed campaign did the OIRA partake in?

the same armed campaign that the PIRA fought in. The only republican shots fired on Bloody Sunday was by an OIRA member. They were a marxist group who sought weapons from the USSR and were active from 1969 until mid 73, when a splinter group formed the INLA.

K-9 · 22-02-2011 9:48pm

Dotsey wrote: »

the same armed campaign that the PIRA fought in. The only republican shots fired on Bloody Sunday was by an OIRA member. They were a marxist group who sought weapons from the USSR and were active from 1969 until mid 73, when a splinter group formed the INLA.

Indeed, I was aware of their background.

It seems they ceased their armed campaign around 1973 and Gilmore joined at that time.

PomBear · 22-02-2011 10:19pm

K-9 wrote: »

Indeed, I was aware of their background.

It seems they ceased their armed campaign around 1973 and Gilmore joined at that time.

Indeed, he joined his college cumann in 1975 but read the lost revolution which would suggest they were not on ceasefire when they suggested so

Hannibal · 22-02-2011 10:30pm

K-9 wrote: »

Indeed, I was aware of their background.

It seems they ceased their armed campaign around 1973 and Gilmore joined at that time.

They only decommissioned last year or the year before, how were Gilmore's campaigns funded? robberies and forged money were the OIRA specialty up until recent years. I'm just surprised he's never been pressed more about his activities under the stewerdship of Goulding and MacGiolla

SafeSurfer · 22-02-2011 10:39pm

Dotsey wrote: »

They only decommissioned last year or the year before, how were Gilmore's campaigns funded? robberies and forged money were the OIRA specialty up until recent years. I'm just surprised he's never been pressed more about his activities under the stewerdship of Goulding and MacGiolla

Jeez thats terrible I wonder did they take money and arms from the Libyan dictator Gadaffi too or was that just the IRA?

Gerry Adams, Leader of Opposition

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