Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

monument · 14-01-2015 7:03pm

lxflyer wrote: »

So do you think it acceptable that a much greater number of people on board the buses should facilitate a smaller group of tram users by having to endure a longer journey?

If all the buses are kept as before Luas started then everybody is going to be slower... is that better?

lxflyer wrote: »

There will have to be a 24 hour public transport gate - nothing less is going to work.

Indeed, my point is that the RPA still won't say this officially, not even to their transport counterparts in other state agencies and bodies.

lxflyer wrote: »

I still find it utterly disgraceful that no analysis of the negative impact on bus services was made at the time of the Railway Order application.

I agree. I can't agree stronger.

The railway order process should have looked at everything -- including the safety and flow for walking and cycling, bus priority so buses are no worse off as much as possible, the taxi rank relocation, detail of car access and any other street layout etc changes needed or wanted.

What happened was like giving a developer permission for a big shopping centre or housing development and telling them to sort out the transport arrangements on your own.

lxflyer wrote: »

Right - try that on any Thursday, Friday or Saturday night when taxis cause mayhem. Do you seriously think that is going to change?

It's perfectly possible for southbound buses to share the entire section from College Street to Nassau Street with LUAS - with no bus stops on that section and only pedestrian lights that's not going to cause unnecessary delays.

I don't see why northbound buses could not share Nassau Street either, with the stops on Suffolk Street removed thereby removing any sticking point.

Camden St to Dame St will need to be looked at sooner or later with the amount of buses on it and a growing amount of cycling on it, with a long-time substandard design -- bicycles are 30% of the traffic on the carriageway at the junction of Dame St and George's St!

Here's a number of things which could be done, from total revamp to the minimum:

(A) A BRT-like route with access to car parks and drop offs etc
(B) A limited amount of bus gates points to stop through traffic
(C) Removal of most parking and revamp lanes etc
(D) Fixing of lanes, removal of some parking, relocation of loading
(E) Enforcement of current clearways, bus/cycle lanes etc

LXFlyer · 14-01-2015 8:31pm

nowecant wrote: »

At least the new conta flow Bus lane at the bleeding horse will help improve the times. http://www.dublincycling.ie/cycling/bleeding-horse-contraflow-open-1100-wed-14th-jan-2015 The are also making Pierce Street a double bus lane.

While I understand that it will certainly cause difficulty moving traffic away from Suffolk street and eventually full pedestrianisation (hopefully) of college green i believe it is inevitable and the right thing to do.

I think BT and the owners of Trinity Street should simply redevelop them as shops/retail. (Does the council own Dury Street????) Give them notice that over the next 3 years (??) that traffic will keep finding it harder to access these areas, through removal of access and increasing the wait times at red lights to give better access for pedestrians.

I don't think you are going to get full pedestrianisation of College Green - it is too important and critical as a public transport artery.

You could certainly get the northern half converted into a plaza, with two lanes retained on the southern and eastern sides to allow buses access Dame Street and Grafton Street.

I wish you good luck in getting the car parks closed - DCC have shown no desire to do that whatsoever.

nowecant · 14-01-2015 8:38pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I wish you good luck in getting the car parks closed - DCC have shown no desire to do that whatsoever.

I would settle for complete removal of onstreet parking in that area in the short term and increasing the widths of the footpaths. Diliveries should also be limited to the very early morning, same as it is on Grafton Street.

I think this would even improve the driving experience for many by taking away unepected bottlenecks when people are trying to parallel park and hold up traffic or with badly parked delivery vans on Exchequer Street

nowecant · 14-01-2015 8:45pm

This might also be of interest, i remember seeing it a while back http://irishcycle.com/2014/01/20/artist-impressions-of-key-city-centre-streets/

EDIT:
http://irishcycle.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/NTA-city-centre-report.pdf
Specifically page 63 and the text arround it.

It should be noted however that DCC distanced themselves from this report (Irish times article) but i recon it was just flying the kite

cgcsb · 15-01-2015 12:51am

lxflyer wrote: »

Well I don't see why the far greater number of bus passengers should have a longer journey to facilitate fewer tram passengers. If not then Suffolk Street and Church Lane come back into the equation northbound, and then onto the south side of College Green which could become a two way bus lane.

One would hope not - it is significantly slower via Camden Street.

The only choice at this point is some people have slower bus journeys or everyone, bus and tram have a slower journey

LXFlyer · 15-01-2015 1:07am

cgcsb wrote: »

The only choice at this point is some people have slower bus journeys or everyone, bus and tram have a slower journey

And at the risk of repeating myself - the greater number of people who are on the buses are being discommoded - please explain to me the logic of that? You're suggesting that it's better to favour less people, i.e. the tram users.

Where is there proof that trams would be slowed? There would be no bus stops and there are no tram stops on Lower Grafton Street and Nassau Street so I don't see the issue.

I've never noticed any particular queue of buses heading south on that stretch of road.

Suffolk Street yes, in the opposite direction, but that's because of bus stops. Take those stops out and you would improve the flow.

cgcsb · 15-01-2015 9:09pm

lxflyer wrote: »

And at the risk of repeating myself - the greater number of people who are on the buses are being discommoded - please explain to me the logic of that? You're suggesting that it's better to favour less people, i.e. the tram users.

Where is there proof that trams would be slowed? There would be no bus stops and there are no tram stops on Lower Grafton Street and Nassau Street so I don't see the issue.

I've never noticed any particular queue of buses heading south on that stretch of road.

Suffolk Street yes, in the opposite direction, but that's because of bus stops. Take those stops out and you would improve the flow.

I didn't say that luas should get priority over all buses, I said we don't have a choice. Luas bxd is happening. If every bus in Dublin continues to use that route along with very long trams, it'll only take one red light to have a queue stretching the length of D2

Carawaystick · 22-01-2015 2:17am

nowecant wrote: »

While I understand that it will certainly cause difficulty moving traffic away from Suffolk street and eventually full pedestrianisation (hopefully) of college green i believe it is inevitable and the right thing to do.

You do know there is a tram line being built through College green, making it almost the opposite of inevitable that full pedestrianization of College Green will ever happen?

monument · 22-01-2015 3:32pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

You do know there is a tram line being built through College green, making it almost the opposite of inevitable that full pedestrianization of College Green will ever happen?

Trams and pedestrianisation works well in many European cities.

A few examples here: https://voony.wordpress.com/2012/10/23/transit-as-part-of-the-urban-fabric/

It's not full pedestrianisation, but I've seen it work in a few cities and it works well in many others.

Aard · 22-01-2015 4:30pm

The tramway in Nice goes through Place Massena at grade with little fuss.

AngryLips · 22-01-2015 5:51pm

monument wrote: »

Trams and pedestrianisation works well in many European cities.

A few examples here: https://voony.wordpress.com/2012/10/23/transit-as-part-of-the-urban-fabric/

It's not full pedestrianisation, but I've seen it work in a few cities and it works well in many others.

I think the pedestrian right-of-way like some of those in the link and similar to the concourse outside the GPO (which I know isn't really a pedestrian ROW at all) could work really well for College Green. Does anyone know if the specs for this section of the city as part of BXD works has detailed what the streetscape here will look like?

Aard · 22-01-2015 7:06pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Does anyone know if the specs for this section of the city as part of BXD works has detailed what the streetscape here will look like?

Afaik it's left up to DCC.

nowecant · 10-06-2015 2:59pm

Its not full pedestrianisation but it looks like a great start

http://irishcycle.com/2015/06/10/public-imput-wanted-on-major-dublin-city-centre-transport-plan/

The full report "Dublin City Centre Transport Study - 2015" is here http://www.dublincity.ie/TransportStudy

qweerty · 10-06-2015 3:07pm

nowecant wrote: »

Its not full pedestrianisation but it looks like a great start

http://irishcycle.com/2015/06/10/public-imput-wanted-on-major-dublin-city-centre-transport-plan/

The full report "Dublin City Centre Transport Study - 2015" is here http://www.dublincity.ie/TransportStudy

Hasn't this been proposed so many times before? How likely is an ineffectual city council going to be able to push this through against likely opposition.

nowecant · 10-06-2015 3:17pm

I would not expect many of their suggestions to be put in place in the proposed timeframe, but any progress is better than none. Pedestrianization of Suffolk Street, 24 hour bus gate on college green, widening of footpaths. Building coach parking facilities outside the city centre. all great moves

LXFlyer · 10-06-2015 3:53pm

qweerty wrote: »

Hasn't this been proposed so many times before? How likely is an ineffectual city council going to be able to push this through against likely opposition.

Well this time it's not just DCC - the NTA are involved as well.

monument · 10-06-2015 4:25pm

qweerty wrote: »

Hasn't this been proposed so many times before? How likely is an ineffectual city council going to be able to push this through against likely opposition.

This has not been proposed before by the city council or the NTA or any such official body -- a draft of this report was leaked and reported last year.

nowecant · 10-06-2015 4:34pm

The biggest single change will be the bus gates on (or close to) Bachelors Walk and Georges Quay.

I also note that in many cases they are banning taxis from using certain routes, so it will be just bus/luas/bike/pedestrian I can imagine that will cause uproar!

From the quick look I have had at the report my only issue is that it seems to be a bit more focused on the south side and docklands. I understand that this is the core but the North side does seem to come out second best

seamus · 10-06-2015 4:36pm

qweerty wrote: »

Hasn't this been proposed so many times before? How likely is an ineffectual city council going to be able to push this through against likely opposition.

It's been proposed by many interest groups and architectural/civil engineering groups.

It's the first time it's been seriously proposed by the local council and NTA.

Chances are the proposal is a bit of an overreach, which they expect to get scaled back when car park owners and the ilk of Mattie McGrath start having conniptions about it.

I can see George's Quay causing a lot of consternation here, people really use it very heavily for getting onto the N4. I don't think the closure of college green will be that big a deal for the taxi drivers. In the end it just means they'll have to take slightly longer routes around. Ching ching.

monument · 10-06-2015 4:51pm

I have not read the full report yet but it seems that the draft more clearly outlined new inner orbtal routes, while the full report does not and includes more details.

The new report seems to make even the Liffey Cycle Route look non-radical. But it also makes that plan even more attractive / workable for buses.

hmmm · 10-06-2015 9:37pm

Good job banning the taxis - there are so many in the city centre now that they are glueing up many of the bus lanes.

Aard · 10-06-2015 9:42pm

^I'm sensing another Red Light Camera or two will be gracing Dublin's streets

Carawaystick · 10-06-2015 11:23pm

nowecant wrote: »

24 hour bus gate on college green

How about a 24 hour bus service first?

Aard · 10-06-2015 11:29pm

When the 24hr bus/luas/bike street is implemented, a lot of space will have been given over to a much enlarged footpath/square and of course the Luas tracks. There will be a bike lane for the first time. There won't be much room left over for anything other than buses. Anyway at those off-peak hours, there's very little reason to be using College Green to drive through the city centre since there's so little traffic elsewhere.

sdanseo · 11-06-2015 2:36am

Spent the evening typing up a submission on the proposed changes reported in the journal. Have a degree in the transport area so I can add some letters and maybe they'll read it.

TLDR -

Reverse traffic on SSG West, allow taxis and buses turn left from Cuffe Street, travel the length and join Dawson Street sharing the Luas surface. This replaces the lost rank at SSG North and the informal rank at Suffolk Street/Grafton Street

Provide proper BRT-style bus shelters, seating and other infrastructure on Westmoreland Street (in the same vein as shown in their mock up of D'Olier Street)

Provide more paving on the Ulster Bank / Books Upstairs side of College Green and sacrifice some on the northern side

Share poles for traffic signals - there's a huge number of them in that mock-up.

Wide-as-possible footpaths all round

Oh, and the Gardaí will actually have to foot patrol so that the junkies don't take up residence. I't a disgrace the way the city is at the minute, they treat O'Connell Street and the redeveloped areas up there like their doorstep.

I've also yet to read the full report but by what monument says my 2-page submission may look like a tribunal report by the time I'm done.

trellheim · 11-06-2015 10:05am

this is typical stupidology.

The correct thing to do here is to provide the correct public transport links - like MN and DU BEFORE these things are done.
just running a single tram line to Broombridge is not the same thing

LXFlyer · 11-06-2015 10:11am

trellheim wrote: »

this is typical stupidology.

The correct thing to do here is to provide the correct public transport links - like MN and DU BEFORE these things are done.
just running a single tram line to Broombridge is not the same thing

While DART Underground may happen it's still going to be a long time away.

So in the meantime do we just let the bus service, which is, and will remain for some considerable time to come, the backbone of our public transport system, get slower and slower in the city centre.

People keep complaining that our city's bus service is unreliable, and the city centre is a major source of the delays to it.

Something has to give, and the arrival of LUAS BXD means that whatever happens the status quo cannot continue.

dubhthach · 11-06-2015 10:56am

I imagine of course part of the longer term thinking with removing traffic from College green is that it would also free up road space if they were ever revised the proposed "LUAS to Lucan" which if memory serves me right was to have ran down Dame Street/College Green.

Luas%20Line%20F%20Map%20V2%201008.map.jpg

Luas%20Line%20F%20Map%20V2%201008.map.jpg

LXFlyer · 11-06-2015 11:37am

I don't see that line ever happening.

It doesn't offer any speed improvement over the 25a/25b bus to/from South Lucan and frankly would cause more congestion than it would solve.

crushproof · 11-06-2015 1:42pm

This has crossed my mind alot in the past. To make College Green pedistrianised, would it be possible to build a bus tunnell from Dame Street, with entry/exits at Westmoreland and D'Olier Streets?
Could even fit in an underground bus interchange. I know in Brisbane (obviously not the same situation as it is a new city), almost the entire bus service in the city centre is underground, with tunnels and interchanges at couple of points around the centre.
And of course the height of Double deckers may be an issue....but it would be good to see.

Then again, as long as they get rid of those dam trees I've been happy.

Aard · 11-06-2015 1:52pm

Underground services. Also I don't really see any problem with buses ag grade through College Green.

qweerty · 14-06-2015 2:08pm

It's probably not in the remit of the transport study, but I feel Dublin is peculiarly unembracing of the river that runs through it, and the study proposes few solutions. Narrow and uneven footpaths run beside it with tall and unattractive buildings on either side. The Northern and Southern cores really only open up at O'Connell and Capel bridges. Bachelors Walk offers the only engagement with the Liffey.

Delighted by the idea of pedestrianising the northern corner of Stephen's Green. Likewise, the proposed changes to Westmoreland Street: as well as the attractiveness of the buildings being underrated (incidentally, while I wouldn't advocate their removal, the trees that line it are partly responsible), it is the principal pedestrian route from one side of the City to the other and the narrow footpaths at present mean it is poorly equipped to perform that role.

Seems odd that the central pivot point of the City - the point where the North-South-West axis meets - is a commercial bank.

Conscious that the footpaths could hardly be widened, removal of on-street parking and bike parking facilities from South William Street would be welcome.

Without considering the consequences, I would instinctively encourage pedestrianising Wicklow and Exchequer streets, and certainly Dame Lane.

There remains an issue with a lack of a central pedestrian halting area. Stephen's Green partly performs that role but is too detached. Depending on what Central Bank is converted to, its forecourt could be redesigned to provide it.

Given that the study was investigating transport links, it's perhaps understandable that no attention was paid to the changing nature of cities in general. But I feel an integrated study with a wider focus may have been desirable.

sdanseo · 14-06-2015 2:22pm

qweerty wrote: »

It's probably not in the remit of the transport study, but I feel Dublin is peculiarly unembracing of the river that runs through it, and the study proposes few solutions. Narrow and uneven footpaths run beside it with tall and unattractive buildings on either side. The Northern and Southern cores really only open up at O'Connell and Capel bridges. Bachelors Walk offers the only engagement with the Liffey.

Delighted by the idea of pedestrianising the northern corner of Stephen's Green. Likewise, the proposed changes to Westmoreland Street: as well as the attractiveness of the buildings being underrated (incidentally, while I wouldn't advocate their removal, the trees that line it are partly responsible), it is the principal pedestrian route from one side of the City to the other and the narrow footpaths at present mean it is poorly equipped to perform that role.

Seems odd that the central pivot point of the City - the point where the North-South-West axis meets - is a commercial bank.

Conscious that the footpaths could hardly be widened, removal of on-street parking and bike parking facilities from South William Street would be welcome.

Without considering the consequences, I would instinctively encourage pedestrianising Wicklow and Exchequer streets, and certainly Dame Lane.

There remains an issue with a lack of a central pedestrian halting area. Stephen's Green partly performs that role but is too detached. Depending on what Central Bank is converted to, its forecourt could be redesigned to provide it.

Given that the study was investigating transport links, it's perhaps understandable that no attention was paid to the changing nature of cities in general. But I feel an integrated study with a wider focus may have been desirable.

Westomoreland and D'Olier Streets are thankfully unique in that they have ample capacity in terms of width to be narrowed to two vehicular lanes each way and the rest converted to O'Connell-Street style paving and, hopefully, added bus infrastructure.

The rest of the area isn't as lucky. South William Street and Exchequer Street should both ideally be pedestrianised, but they provide one of only perhaps three access routes to a number of car parks and also provide for taxis to pick-up and drop-off. If this can no longer happen, taxis will clog other streets (look at Camden Street on a busy Saturday, a regular motorist would be foolish not to take another route).

I think in order to make a civic plaza we needed a plan to remove all vehicles from College Green - but thanks to the location of Trinity College this was never really going to be possible. There just aren't enough alternative routes for public transport to take.

qweerty · 14-06-2015 2:40pm

sdanseo wrote: »

Westomoreland and D'Olier Streets are thankfully unique in that they have ample capacity in terms of width to be narrowed to two vehicular lanes each way and the rest converted to O'Connell-Street style paving and, hopefully, added bus infrastructure.

The rest of the area isn't as lucky. South William Street and Exchequer Street should both ideally be pedestrianised, but they provide one of only perhaps three access routes to a number of car parks and also provide for taxis to pick-up and drop-off. If this can no longer happen, taxis will clog other streets (look at Camden Street on a busy Saturday, a regular motorist would be foolish not to take another route).

Interesting point.

I actually think a Dublin centre devoid of cars would counter intuitively detract in some way, so not overly dismayed.

I think in order to make a civic plaza we needed a plan to remove all vehicles from College Green - but thanks to the location of Trinity College this was never really going to be possible. There just aren't enough alternative routes for public transport to take.

I, ofc, forgot to mention the role Trinity College plays in that regard. Aware, as you say, of the difficulty of creating space for a central plaza (that's the word I was searching for!), a combination of TCD, Dubh Linn Gardens, Stephen's Green, Merrion Square, Temple Bar, Parnell Square (post-development) and the Central Bank forecourt would seem capable to me of providing the need for, to coin a term, pedestrian set-down zones. (Distinct lack on the North Side, tho.) While sorely lacking for public events like the SSM marriage result, I actually think a large central plaza might be unattractive in frequently wet and dreary Dublin.

monument · 14-06-2015 3:02pm

qweerty wrote: »

Interesting point.

I actually think a Dublin centre devoid of cars would counter intuitively detract in some way, so not overly dismayed.

Why exactly?

Btw it would be devoid of cars, only very limited areas will be devoid of cars.

qweerty wrote: »

.. I actually think a large central plaza might be unattractive in frequently wet and dreary Dublin.

Amsterdam and Copenhagen have similar rain fall as Dublin -- indeed, Copenhagen also gets harsh, colder winters.

Copenhagen had similar weather-related excuses from retailers and other who opposed their now more extensive network of pedestrian-only streets.

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't see that line ever happening.

It doesn't offer any speed improvement over the 25a/25b bus to/from South Lucan and frankly would cause more congestion than it would solve.

I agree re the route and I don't think the route is optimal. But in fairness, to/from South Lucan would be a small percent of overall number of passangers

LXFlyer · 14-06-2015 3:26pm

monument wrote: »

I agree re the route and I don't think the route is optimal. But in fairness, to/from South Lucan would be a small percent of overall number of passangers

I think that South Lucan would be a major part of their business case, but being honest about it, I think this route would a complete waste of money. The areas served by it alone can be served far better by the bus network. South Lucan and Liffey Valley all have an excellent bus service via the N4. I'm not convinced that this would improve the lot of Ballyfermot commuters either, and the James' Street and Thomas Street corridor has a very good bus service as it is.

The route would be far too slow and the extended on-street running just too much on that corridor.

In this case it is far better to focus on improving the bus services where possible, and developing P & R on the rail line as that service increases, and getting DART Underground up and running.

LXFlyer · 14-06-2015 3:37pm

qweerty wrote: »

Conscious that the footpaths could hardly be widened, removal of on-street parking and bike parking facilities from South William Street would be welcome.

Without considering the consequences, I would instinctively encourage pedestrianising Wicklow and Exchequer streets, and certainly Dame Lane.

There remains an issue with a lack of a central pedestrian halting area. Stephen's Green partly performs that role but is too detached. Depending on what Central Bank is converted to, its forecourt could be redesigned to provide it.

sdanseo wrote: »

Westomoreland and D'Olier Streets are thankfully unique in that they have ample capacity in terms of width to be narrowed to two vehicular lanes each way and the rest converted to O'Connell-Street style paving and, hopefully, added bus infrastructure.

The rest of the area isn't as lucky. South William Street and Exchequer Street should both ideally be pedestrianised, but they provide one of only perhaps three access routes to a number of car parks and also provide for taxis to pick-up and drop-off. If this can no longer happen, taxis will clog other streets (look at Camden Street on a busy Saturday, a regular motorist would be foolish not to take another route).

I think in order to make a civic plaza we needed a plan to remove all vehicles from College Green - but thanks to the location of Trinity College this was never really going to be possible. There just aren't enough alternative routes for public transport to take.

Neither Exchequer Street nor Wickow Street really can be pedestrianised as they provide necessary access routes to a major car park. And I don't see that changing.

However I'm convinced that South William Street can be pedestrianised from the car park exit to Chatham Row. It would require a bit of rejigging of traffic flows, but I'm sure if there was a will to do it that it could be done.

College Green can not be fully pedestrianised - it would be disastrous from the perspective of public transport access to the city centre. Buses are and will remain the dominant form of public transport access to the city centre and as such it is imperative that they can get to the points that people want to go to. I think that the proposal as stands is probably the best compromise.

strassenwo!f · 14-06-2015 3:49pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't see that line ever happening.

I hope you're right, and that sense will prevail in the end.

If all the current plans from Government departments/agencies are to be realised, we would have the (i) DART Underground between Heuston and Pearse via St. Stephen's Green (which I, personally, hope will be rerouted to straighten it out and serve more people, rather than build a circuitous route and have a station beside a 22-acre park with no commuters, as is the current plan in St. Stephen's Green), (ii) the Lucan Luas, and (iii) the existing red LUAS.

This would result in Dublin, along the St. Stephen's Green to O'Connell Street axis having 3(three) East-West rail lines within just a kilometre of each other. An absurd situation.

But that is the current plan.

qweerty · 14-06-2015 3:56pm

monument wrote: »

Why exactly

Without slow-moving cars on the likes of South William Street, I feel a certain energy would be taken away from the city. But don't focus on that point, please.

Amsterdam and Copenhagen have similar rain fall as Dublin -- indeed, Copenhagen also gets harsh, colder winters.

Copenhagen had similar weather-related excuses from retailers and other who opposed their now more extensive network of pedestrian-only streets.

Lived in London for a while and felt Trafalgar Square, when it was empty during off-season or wet days, was a boring expanse. Were one to be created in Dublin, it would dominate the city. But I'm not particularly wedded to that opinion either.

bk · 14-06-2015 4:54pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Neither Exchequer Street nor Wickow Street really can be pedestrianised as they provide necessary access routes to a major car park. And I don't see that changing.

Well the full report actually mentions closing some car parks or turning them into dedicated bike parking and relocating them to new car parks further outside the core city center.

They don't specify which car parks, but I expect it could well be these ones.

While I'm aware some of these are private car parks, their owners might be open swapping them for a larger modern car park a little further out on government owned land.

Really they are in a terrible location and need to be moved.

qweerty wrote: »

Without slow-moving cars on the likes of South William Street, I feel a certain energy would be taken away from the city. But don't focus on that point, please.

LOL!! No way. I have a friend who owned a jewellery shop on South William Street. DCC as part of a trial turned the street into a pedestrian street for a day or two and it was a massive success. My friends shop did 5 times more business that day then usual!

But also the street was far nicer and more fun on that day. All the bars and restaurants put tables further out onto the street and their was a real exciting buzz on the street. Very continental European vibe.

The cars on that street are a complete disaster and the sooner they are gone the better.

qweerty · 14-06-2015 5:10pm

bk wrote: »

LOL!! No way. I have a friend who owned a jewellery shop on South William Street. DCC as part of a trial turned the street into a pedestrian street for a day or two and it was a massive success. My friends shop did 5 times more business that day then usual!

But also the street was far nicer and more fun on that day. All the bars and restaurants put tables further out onto the street and their was a real exciting buzz on the street. Very continental European vibe.

The cars on that street are a complete disaster and the sooner they are gone the better.

Like I said, I don't really want to represent this side of the argument. But your example takes the street in isolation and on, what I presume is, a pleasant day. Taking it to an extreme (I'm aware of what monument emphasised above about only a small area being pedestrianised) if the whole of Dublin were pedestrianised, places that don't get much footfall would feel desolate at times. With your example, if surrounding streets such as Dame Street were pedestrianised as well, SW Street would receive less footfall. And, during off season, poor weather and lack of people would mean it could be quite empty. In theory, it could be pedestrianised seasonally, I guess.

But...I can absolutely see the other side too. So please, if you intend to respond, do so in the abstract rather than to dispute my claims specifically!

Aard · 14-06-2015 5:16pm

bk wrote: »

They don't specify which car parks [...] I'm aware some of these are private car parks

While ordinarily I would be reticent about CPO's and Part 8's etc, I think that if the council were to purchase some of these car parks (in particular the AA carpark) it would be a good use of local authority power.

Aard · 14-06-2015 5:21pm

qweerty wrote: »

Taking it to an extreme (I'm aware of what monument emphasised above about only a small area being pedestrianised) if the whole of Dublin were pedestrianised, places that don't get much footfall would feel desolate at times.

Nobody is interested in pedestrianising large expanses of the CBD/retail core, not least the council. There is an understanding for the need for delivery vehicle and bike access.

Anyway with several large institutions (Brown Thomas, Westbury and the likes) in the area that rely on vehicular access, it isn't feasible to fully pedestrianise yet even if full pedestrianisation was a goal.

qweerty · 14-06-2015 5:31pm

Aard wrote: »

Nobody is interested in pedestrianising large expanses of the CBD/retail core, not least the council. There is an understanding for the need for delivery vehicle and bike access.

Anyway with several large institutions (Brown Thomas, Westbury and the likes) in the area that rely on vehicular access, it isn't feasible to fully pedestrianise yet even if full pedestrianisation was a goal.

Like I implied, the example of total pedestrianisation was to prove a point, which is that: the more you pedestrianise, the thinner the footfall will be.

D.L.R. · 14-06-2015 5:31pm

Irish planners want to have their cake and eat it. They want to pedestrianise central Dublin, but don't want to pay for underground rail.

Build capacity underground in order to free up capacity overground. It ain't rocket science.

Aard · 14-06-2015 6:34pm

qweerty wrote: »

Like I implied, the example of total pedestrianisation was to prove a point, which is that: the more you pedestrianise, the thinner the footfall will be.

I don't think that is proven at all.

monument · 14-06-2015 6:37pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

Irish planners want to have their cake and eat it. They want to pedestrianise central Dublin, but don't want to pay for underground rail.

Build capacity underground in order to free up capacity overground. It ain't rocket science.

Copahagain did nearly the exact same thing -- their extensive pedestrianize came before building underground metro lines.

Nearly sure Amsterdam did the same in regards to restricting car use before building the supporting metro lines too, but would have to check that out.

The plans in Dublin support LRT, buses, cycling and walking.

cgcsb · 15-06-2015 10:36am

qweerty wrote: »

Like I implied, the example of total pedestrianisation was to prove a point, which is that: the more you pedestrianise, the thinner the footfall will be.

That's just silly. Currently we have to walk sidewards down south william street on any given day. Same on Westmoreland St/College green and the Dame st/George's st cross. Nobody is proposing total pedestrianisation.

Carawaystick · 15-06-2015 2:03pm

cgcsb wrote: »

That's just silly. Currently we have to walk sidewards down south william street on any given day. Same on Westmoreland St/College green and the Dame st/George's st cross. Nobody is proposing total pedestrianisation.

Sher Grafton st isn't fully pedestrianised, I used to have to dodge trucks and vans walking up it every morning on the way to work.

AlanG · 15-06-2015 2:14pm

It will be interesting what impact the closing of Clearys will have on the thinking of DCC. While a pedestrian city is great for tourists and some workers it is a disaster for many larger shops who target families. Not too many people with kids will come into town for shopping if they cant drive as you are limited to one or two bags on public transport. The city will become even more of a theme park and coffee destination.

Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

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