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Eircode discussion
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I think one major failure of Eircode design has been to completely overlook the human element.
BoatMad I completely disagree with your statement that in a computer centric system, all services such as Eircode should be computer centric.
It seems obvious and elementary to me that any system requiring participation from the public should be public oriented first, and as technically adapted to fulfil its economic purpose as possible, second.
For implementation to work, the public need to be on board, not just companies. And so far, this uninteresting and irrelevant string of digits has not been adopted by the public. I can only judge from my own social environment of course, of neighbours, friends, family, and colleagues. So far, and still, I am the only person in that sample to know and use my Eircode. In my bubble, I would estimate a 50/50 ratio of people who "know they must have an Eircode and don't give a toss", and people who have forgotten all about it, and never even checked theirs.
My bubble is pretty broad and wide ranging as regards ages/generations, socioeconomic background, etc...
None of them are interested. None of them understand its purpose. Most of them would speculate that it's just another way for the government to find you for tax purposes.
Had it been intended to be used backstage, by companies, with no involvement of the public, I would not be criticizing it, obviously.
Had it embraced a logical, meaningful, and useful structure as outlined by plodder, I firmly believe it would by now have been implemented.0 -
I find it laughable and almost amazing that people want a post code that facilitates companies doing marketing analysis or whatever.
Eircode is a post code, a method of dealing with Irelands significant non-unique address issue , and such an issue has allowed An Post to enjoy certain advantages over couriers and other delivery business, that Eircode seeks to correct , Also it can be used by emergency services to remove confusion.
The main criticism advanced here and elsewhere ( leaving aside the rant bridage), is that Eircode is not in the form of a human inspect-able hierarchical code structure. ( leaving aside how such physical hierarchy is to be established).
This to me,, is a huge advantage of Eircode, The principles of modern Data Protection, are that information provided by me to someone else, is only used for the purposes that I agree to. in This regards Eircode is a suitable post code, thats all and thats all it should be . Eircode is a method of whereby I agree to provide YOU with a unique reference to my postal address for the purposes that I decide , nothing else.
IN fact if I was doing it , it would be completely random, the sort code was a sop to AN Post. That way the code would only be meaningful to companies that licensed the GeoDirectory and this provides controls on its use. IN this regard its rather like LOC8
To suggest that a code should be built that facilitates inspection by humans, then allows unscrupulous operators to build non official databases, blanket mail areas, or just lets a nosy parker , discover what part of the country I live in , perhaps down to a town land. No thanks to that
Legitimate companies that wish to use Eircodes for data analysis , have to ask me to agree to that , secondly they can easily interrogate GeoDirectory and build appropriate " analysis areas", right down to Townland if necessary ( since they can extract such information) . They can also use the Geo Co-ords, to build any spatial analysis area if they wish
Hence to suggest that Eircode cant be used for this purpose, simply , because , joe nosey parker public, cant manual interrogate the code, is one of Eircodes biggest advantages
On a purely technical basis , Hierarchical namespaes , tend to result in very long , difficult to remember structures, and they are inefficient as "blocks" of that namespace are inherently allocated even when no use is made of them. Furthermore to avoid transcription errors , arising from manual inspection, you really need the last identifier to be unique, or else the code can legitimately point to an address in a completely different area. This would result in either huge ( comparatively ) namespaces or the issue where due to population growth, certain hierarchies get used up. IN this regard a comparison between IPv4 and IPv6 internet addressing shows the issues around hierarchical addressing and the huge increase in namespace code size to handle increasing numbers and still retain some sense of physical hierarchy. ( which is requires in IP routing)
There is no technical or use advantage in having a human inspectable code , humans dont sort deliveries , computers do0 -
Really? I'm sure some companies will license Eircode to do just that.I find it laughable and almost amazing that people want a post code that facilitates companies doing marketing analysis or whatever.
You couldn't be more wrong about this. Eircode is a threat to privacy more than it is beneficial from a privacy pov. Your point seems to be that a random code discloses no information, but what you forget is that "nosey parkers" can lookup the code for free and pinpoint your exact location. There is no avoiding this with a monolithic code like what you are suggesting below (at least Eircode has one level of structure to it). But, the one level of structure that Eircode has, was crippled by the crazy design of the routing keys.Eircode is a post code, a method of dealing with Irelands significant non-unique address issue , and such an issue has allowed An Post to enjoy certain advantages over couriers and other delivery business, that Eircode seeks to correct , Also it can be used by emergency services to remove confusion.
The main criticism advanced here and elsewhere ( leaving aside the rant bridage), is that Eircode is not in the form of a human inspect-able hierarchical code structure. ( leaving aside how such physical hierarchy is to be established).
This to me,, is a huge advantage of Eircode, The principles of modern Data Protection, are that information provided by me to someone else, is only used for the purposes that I agree to. in This regards Eircode is a suitable post code, thats all and thats all it should be . Eircode is a method of whereby I agree to provide YOU with a unique reference to my postal address for the purposes that I decide , nothing else.
That's a bit like An Post arguing that postal addresses should be a random code, rather than hierarchically organised as they are, because people other than themselves might (unscrupulously) gain some benefit from it.IN fact if I was doing it , it would be completely random, the sort code was a sop to AN Post. That way the code would only be meaningful to companies that licensed the GeoDirectory and this provides controls on its use. IN this regard its rather like LOC8
To suggest that a code should be built that facilitates inspection by humans, then allows unscrupulous operators to build non official databases, blanket mail areas, or just lets a nosy parker , discover what part of the country I live in , perhaps down to a town land. No thanks to that
It's ludicrous, and symptomatic of the attitude that postcodes don't belong to the public in any meaningful way. Instead, you are expected to use them in the restricted way intended, and then pay for all real uses after that.
The Postcode implementation board rightly argued that postcodes shouldn't be private or hidden. They should be open and usable by anyone who wants to. They shouldn't have to pay a rent-seeking toll for the privilege. By all means, for certain genuinely useful value added services, pay for them, but not in principle just to decode a jumbled up code.
As above, it's a big advantage for the people who want to monetise it, but not for the public.Legitimate companies that wish to use Eircodes for data analysis , have to ask me to agree to that , secondly they can easily interrogate GeoDirectory and build appropriate " analysis areas", right down to Townland if necessary ( since they can extract such information) . They can also use the Geo Co-ords, to build any spatial analysis area if they wish
Hence to suggest that Eircode cant be used for this purpose, simply , because , joe nosey parker public, cant manual interrogate the code, is one of Eircodes biggest advantages
Not true. Hierarchical codes aren't necessarily longer (the one I suggested is the same size as Eircode). They are easier to remember because there is more meaning associated with them (eg GY might represent Galway) even the following characters would be meaningful in the sense that they represent specific areas.On a purely technical basis , Hierarchical namespaes , tend to result in very long , difficult to remember structures, and they are inefficient as "blocks" of that namespace are inherently allocated even when no use is made of them. Furthermore to avoid transcription errors , arising from manual inspection, you really need the last identifier to be unique, or else the code can legitimately point to an address in a completely different area. This would result in either huge ( comparatively ) namespaces or the issue where due to population growth, certain hierarchies get used up.
Not sure what your point is here. IPv6 was devised primarily to increase the number of possible internet addresses. I don't see the relevance to this discussion.IN this regard a comparison between IPv4 and IPv6 internet addressing shows the issues around hierarchical addressing and the huge increase in namespace code size to handle increasing numbers and still retain some sense of physical hierarchy. ( which is requires in IP routing)
But, as other posters have pointed out, humans are expected to remember and use them. It was a fatal mistake not to recognise this in the design of Eircode. And as has been pointed out, small businesses shouldn't be forced to pay for software to solve an artificially created problem. I understand why someone who wants to make money from selling such software would disagree though.There is no technical or use advantage in having a human inspectable code , humans dont sort deliveries , computers do
It is ludicrous that this conversation is taking place after the project is rolled out.0 -
Really? I'm sure some companies will license Eircode to do just that.
No issue, with that, licensing acts as a control , but its not the primary purpose of a postal code, and even more so , its not the primary purpose if Eircode.You couldn't be more wrong about this. Eircode is a threat to privacy more than it is beneficial from a privacy pov. Your point seems to be that a random code discloses no information, but what you forget is that "nosey parkers" can lookup the code for free and pinpoint your exact location. There is no avoiding this with a monolithic code like what you are suggesting below (at least Eircode has one level of structure to it). But, the one level of structure that Eircode has, was crippled by the crazy design of the routing keys.
any code, hierarchical , linear, of just a hash key, can be looked up if the facilities are provided. But a human readable key can be interrogated without any control. whereas a Eircode must have a computerised lookup which can be controlled ( using the licensing system ) Eircode discloses very little information on casual inspection unlike hierarchical codes. Thats a very good thingThat's a bit like An Post arguing that postal addresses should be a random code, rather than hierarchically organised as they are, because people other than themselves might (unscrupulously) gain some benefit from it.
It's ludicrous, and symptomatic of the attitude that postcodes don't belong to the public in any meaningful way. Instead, you are expected to use them in the restricted way intended, and then pay for all real uses after that.
They DONT belong to the " public", mine essentially belongs to me, and I control its dissemination ( as best I can)The Postcode implementation board rightly argued that postcodes shouldn't be private or hidden. They should be open and usable by anyone who wants to. They shouldn't have to pay a rent-seeking toll for the privilege. By all means, for certain genuinely useful value added services, pay for them, but not in principle just to decode a jumbled up code.
The actual monetary value is entirely subject to change, the principle that the database must be licensed is a very goodone.
"people" dont need to decode postcodes, we use computers for that.As above, it's a big advantage for the people who want to monetise it, but not for the public.
The licensing is primarily to cover the adminsitratiuion of Eircode and updating GeoDirectory ( and paying the OSI and ANpost)
I agree the costs of access are too high, but thats a different debateNot true. Hierarchical codes aren't necessarily longer (the one I suggested is the same size as Eircode). They are easier to remember because there is more meaning associated with them (eg GY might represent Galway) even the following characters would be meaningful in the sense that they represent specific areas.
I have no desire that you can determine anything from my postcode, unless I specifically agree to give it to you for a defined purpose. I also disagree with county location codes on car numbers plates too.
The reason IPv6 was brought in was to address the issues of restricted adders space due to ipv4 inefficient hierarchical structure, only 18% of IPv4 address where in use in 2014, yet the top levels were fully exhaustedNot sure what your point is here. IPv6 was devised primarily to increase the number of possible internet addresses. I don't see the relevance to this discussion.But, as other posters have pointed out, humans are expected to remember and use them. It was a fatal mistake not to recognise this in the design of Eircode. And as has been pointed out, small businesses shouldn't be forced to pay for software to solve an artificially created problem. I understand why someone who wants to make money from selling such software would disagree though.
Oh for goodness sake its a 7 digit number, can you remember your mobile phone number, I can remember my name bank account number ( 8 digits) , my phone , my eircode. ( and I suffer from a number sequencing disorder )It is ludicrous that this conversation is taking place after the project is rolled out.
whats ludicrous is people arguing that Eircode isn't fit for its intended purpose, when it clearly is, arguing that the GPO doesn't have a eircode, that Google or satnavs arnt implementing it , or that logistics software isn't implementing it , or that every day its increasing its usage , the ranters are like Commical Ali" as the US tanks rolled over his foot.
"No No Eircode is flawed, No, Smoking doesnt cause cancer", rant rant as more and more Eircode uses appear every day
Nothing is perfect , but Eircode clearly works for what it was intended0 -
With respect, the primary purpose of eircode has never been clear, and that is probably at the root of most of these issues.No issue, with that, licensing acts as a control , but its not the primary purpose of a postal code, and even more so , its not the primary purpose if Eircode.
I think the reasoning above is naive. Commercial licenses are not a good way to drive information security, and it doesn't address at all, the point that an Eircode itself is a unique identifying token, and will circulate completely independently of the license system. Eg when you enter your Eircode on a website, you have published a token containing a pointer to your house to someone who has no relationship with Eircode.
any code, hierarchical , linear, of just a hash key, can be looked up if the facilities are provided. But a human readable key can be interrogated without any control. whereas a Eircode must have a computerised lookup which can be controlled ( using the licensing system ) Eircode discloses very little information on casual inspection unlike hierarchical codes. Thats a very good thing
The main point you are missing is that with a hierarchical code, the owner has more control. If I want to tell you what county I live in, I give you the first two characters. If I want to disclose a finer grained location then I give you the next piece. With that I know that nobody can determine my exact address. If I am looking up a store location on Lidl's website, this might be what I do. If I am replying to a survey, it might be what I do. But, I only disclose my full code to someone who actually needs to know exactly where I live (if they need to deliver something or visit my house) and I expect them to take appropriate care with that information.
With Eircode, it's all or nothing. You have to give the full seven character code to everyone, even in cases where they don't want to know where you live. In those cases, it is actual hassle, because you are providing personal information that they don't want. They don't want the hassle of having to look after it.
Right, they belong to you - not to Eircode or An Post.They DONT belong to the " public", mine essentially belongs to me, and I control its dissemination ( as best I can)
Ironically, a more flexible design could have provided some information for free and other information at a cost higher than what they are charging because it would only be used by businesses that really need it.
The licensing is primarily to cover the adminsitratiuion of Eircode and updating GeoDirectory ( and paying the OSI and ANpost)
I agree the costs of access are too high, but thats a different debate
A one size fits all policy has to sell it for less than they might otherwise make in some segments.
It's a seven character code, not a 7 digit number. Structured information is easier to remember than random information. There's plenty of research on this, but people get to recognise combinations of letters as symbols or tokens in themselves.Oh for goodness sake its a 7 digit number, can you remember your mobile phone number, I can remember my name bank account number ( 8 digits) , my phone , my eircode. ( and I suffer from a number sequencing disorder )
I'm sure if I tried hard enough I could remember it. But, I definitely won't remember my own and my parents one down the road. Or the mother in law's 40 miles away. What benefit would memorising any of them be? I remember my bank ac number, my credit card number because I use them all the time.0 -
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With respect, the primary purpose of eircode has never been clear, and that is probably at the root of most of these issues.
The primary purpose of Eircode was to deal with the issue of non unique addresses that is peculiar to Ireland. This was seen as a major disadvantage to the development of the courier business, emergency services etc. It was not seen by AN Post as an advantageI think the reasoning above is naive. Commercial licenses are not a good way to drive information security, and it doesn't address at all, the point that an Eircode itself is a unique identifying token, and will circulate completely independently of the license system. Eg when you enter your Eircode on a website, you have published a token containing a pointer to your house to someone who has no relationship with Eircode.
Licensing, commercial or not, is ONE way to try and control information security. If you can deduce nothing from the code in itself , then to decode it you need GeoDirectory. Thats goodThe main point you are missing is that with a hierarchical code, the owner has more control. If I want to tell you what county I live in, I give you the first two characters. If I want to disclose a finer grained location then I give you the next piece. With that I know that nobody can determine my exact address. If I am looking up a store location on Lidl's website, this might be what I do. If I am replying to a survey, it might be what I do. But, I only disclose my full code to someone who actually needs to know exactly where I live (if they need to deliver something or visit my house) and I expect them to take appropriate care with that information.
The purpose of Eircode and any postal code , is to provide a unique identifier to your mailing address not your location per se
[/QUOTE]
With Eircode, it's all or nothing. You have to give the full seven character code to everyone, even in cases where they don't want to know where you live. In those cases, it is actual hassle, because you are providing personal information that they don't want. They don't want the hassle of having to look after it[/QUOTE]
the point is that a postal code is supplied to be a identifier to you , not your town land, mail is delivered to you after all
if you want to debate the " lidl" type nonsense, sure just select your nearest town from a scrolling list easy pleasy . Postal codes are not primarily designed for that application. If Lidl were to license geodirectories, theres are number if options open to them to locate your nearest store, including fully automated lookup, based on you browser giving out your relocation , or merely using you rIP address
Partial Eircode debates , im afraid its just nonsense0 -
With respect, the primary purpose of eircode has never been clear, and that is probably at the root of most of these issues.
The primary purpose of Eircode was to deal with the issue of non unique addresses that is peculiar to Ireland. This was seen as a major disadvantage to the development of the courier business, emergency services etc. It was not seen by AN Post as an advantageI think the reasoning above is naive. Commercial licenses are not a good way to drive information security, and it doesn't address at all, the point that an Eircode itself is a unique identifying token, and will circulate completely independently of the license system. Eg when you enter your Eircode on a website, you have published a token containing a pointer to your house to someone who has no relationship with Eircode.
Licensing, commercial or not, is ONE way to try and control information security. If you can deduce nothing from the code in itself , then to decode it you need GeoDirectory. Thats goodThe main point you are missing is that with a hierarchical code, the owner has more control. If I want to tell you what county I live in, I give you the first two characters. If I want to disclose a finer grained location then I give you the next piece. With that I know that nobody can determine my exact address. If I am looking up a store location on Lidl's website, this might be what I do. If I am replying to a survey, it might be what I do. But, I only disclose my full code to someone who actually needs to know exactly where I live (if they need to deliver something or visit my house) and I expect them to take appropriate care with that information.
The purpose of Eircode and any postal code , is to provide a unique identifier to your mailing address not your location per se
[/QUOTE]
With Eircode, it's all or nothing. You have to give the full seven character code to everyone, even in cases where they don't want to know where you live. In those cases, it is actual hassle, because you are providing personal information that they don't want. They don't want the hassle of having to look after it[/QUOTE]
the point is that a postal code is supplied to be a identifier to you , not your town land, mail is delivered to you after all
if you want to debate the " lidl" type nonsense, sure just select your nearest town from a scrolling list easy pleasy . Postal codes are not primarily designed for that application. If Lidl were to license geodirectories, theres are number if options open to them to locate your nearest store, including fully automated lookup, based on you browser giving out your relocation , or merely using you rIP address
Partial Eircode debates , im afraid its just nonsense0 -
That was only one purpose. There are many others.The primary purpose of Eircode was to deal with the issue of non unique addresses that is peculiar to Ireland. This was seen as a major disadvantage to the development of the courier business, emergency services etc. It was not seen by AN Post as an advantage
Take the example you used. You were dead against the idea of marketing companies freely using a public postcode. But, when I said they would probably license Eircode, you said that is fine. In other words it's not about protecting privacy at all. So long as they are paying for access, you're fine with it.
Licensing, commercial or not, is ONE way to try and control information security. If you can deduce nothing from the code in itself , then to decode it you need GeoDirectory. Thats good
Sure, when you need to have something delivered you provide your full postcode.the point is that a postal code is supplied to be a identifier to you , not your town land, mail is delivered to you after all
IP addresses aren't great for locating people. My current IP address has me in the wrong country. No, the simplest thing would have been for us to have a multi level code, and each website would just ask for first 2, 5 or else full 7 chars of your code. Apart from saving key strokes, whenever someone asks for your full 7 char code, you would ask - do they really need that? With Eircode it's not possible to ask that question.if you want to debate the " lidl" type nonsense, sure just select your nearest town from a scrolling list easy pleasy . Postal codes are not primarily designed for that application. If Lidl were to license geodirectories, theres are number if options open to them to locate your nearest store, including fully automated lookup, based on you browser giving out your relocation , or merely using you rIP address0 -
Boatmad, your message seems to be : Eircode is great for commercial/economics purposes, all other debate is irrelevant nonsense.
Thing is, Eircode involves people, the public.
So the public's perception, people's level of comfort with the design of Eircode, are indeed hugely relevant.
And like Plodder put it, it was never clearly stated that Eircode was designed for the single purpose of increasing some companies' profit. (which is what it's about really, isn't it ?)
Maybe had the literature been clearer about its purpose, if you think that is its only purpose, people would not rant about it.0 -
Licensing, commercial or not, is ONE way to try and control information security. If you can deduce nothing from the code in itself , then to decode it you need GeoDirectory. Thats good
It may have had limited success 30 years ago. I think it won't be long before the complete location data gets into the wild however, and that genie will be out of the bottle.0 -
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Mountainsandh wrote: »Not with house owner's details linked as far as I know ?
He said houses location data. Your houses location is public, with or without an eircode
Eircode does not link homeowners data either, a company or an individual can decide to link a homeowner to an eircode in a database somewhere, as they can do now for all unique addresses in the world.0 -
He said houses location data. Your houses location is public, with or without an eircode
Eircode does not link homeowners data either, a company or an individual can decide to link a homeowner to an eircode in a database somewhere, as they can do now for all unique addresses in the world.
hhmm. My Eircode links to an identifier, as Mr M has a company registered to our address. I was a bit shocked that the name of our family should be overshadowed by the name of the company, it must be just company names coming up then.0 -
Mountainsandh wrote: »hhmm. My Eircode links to an identifier, as Mr M has a company registered to our address. I was a bit shocked that the name of our family should be overshadowed by the name of the company, it must be just company names coming up then.
Yes the geodirectory does have company names as far as I'm aware, if you register your company to your home address then you are putting that information in the public domain for anyone to access, sites like solocheck.ie etc will list the information for anyone to look up0 -
Mountainsandh wrote: »Not with house owner's details linked as far as I know ?
Pragmatically, Google has linked home addresses to individuals anyway. If I put my address into Google, within the first 20 results there are references to every adult who lives there.
In particular, www.missedcallireland.com gives home address and name given a phone number :- Google has indexed the names and addresses, and will return names/phone numbers given an address. I presume that site doesn't work for ex-directory numbers, but there are other public databases for Google to index on anyway.0 -
Just tried Google there, out of curiosity.
None of our names, or even neighbours', come up when googling the address. Mr M's company name comes up 2 pages in, but without any name attached, and a few obituaries come up, without immediate names of living people at a certain address. Some links to co Council planning applications might definitely identify some people around alright.
So my own address in any case, is still relatively private.
It means that if I enter my Eircode, linked to a form with my name and address, I am forever linking my Eircode to myself on the internet, in the event that the contents of the form are made publicly available.
Of course like mentioned above, with Data Protection laws this really shouldn't happen, bar hacking and leaks.
You know how it is though, for me it's similar to my phone number, I don't like to spread it around too much to these commercial outfits, too much small print to be read in a lot of cases to be sure you won't be getting junk from it.0 -
Mountainsandh wrote: »It means that if I enter my Eircode, linked to a form with my name and address, I am forever linking my Eircode to myself on the internet, in the event that the contents of the form are made publicly available.
Take eircode out of the equation and your statement is exactly the same, I'm not sure what relevance it has to eircode.
If you fill that same form in now without an eircode, you are "forever linking" your address to your name and probably your phone number etc etc. Eircode adds no extra risk0 -
Take eircode out of the equation and your statement is exactly the same, I'm not sure what relevance it has to eircode.
If you fill that same form in now without an eircode, you are "forever linking" your address to your name and probably your phone number etc etc. Eircode adds no extra risk
It does in the situations that had been alluded to, such as being asked an Eircode for purely statistical quick location purposes, in a survey for example, or by a shop. Whereas in these situations supplying an area code or part of a code would not support that link to private information.0 -
Mountainsandh wrote: »It does in the situations that had been alluded to, such as being asked an Eircode for purely statistical quick location purposes, in a survey for example, or by a shop. Whereas in these situations supplying an area code or part of a code would not support that link to private information.
When it comes to research they either want your exact address (like the CSO to pinpoint you) or they just want to know if you're urban or rural and maybe the county, the criteria for research is never people from area BT1 nor is it ever collated and presented as such. The criteria used is more like "urban, rural, young families, pre family, professionals, renters, empty nesters. Dublin, Midlands, west, south, north. Socio demographics such as ABC1 - C1C2
Eircode is your full address, if you don't want to give your full address and if the person requesting it isn't happy with just your routing key, then I would suspect they will take a townland or nearest town to get your general area.0 -
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But, presumably google is only indexing information that is already out there. I just googled my own address and a few others and basically nothing came back, which is good. If I enter the same addresses on google maps, then it brings me to those locations. Again, that's what I'd expect and it's not any surprising privacy violation.Pragmatically, Google has linked home addresses to individuals anyway. If I put my address into Google, within the first 20 results there are references to every adult who lives there.0 -
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Mountainsandh wrote: »It does in the situations that had been alluded to, such as being asked an Eircode for purely statistical quick location purposes, in a survey for example, or by a shop. Whereas in these situations supplying an area code or part of a code would not support that link to private information.
Sigh, in these cases, you are at your complete liberty to simply not divulge your Eircode.
To criticise Eircode, because it cant be used to profile you for statistical or marketing purposes is very bizarre in my opinion. To me its a great advantage of Eircode.0 -
Obviously, there are anomalies at the boundaries. Everyone understands that. But in over 90% of cases, your next door neighbor has the same postcode as you. With Eircode, everyone's postcode is different. That makes them harder to remember. It's a fairly simple point.marmurr1916 wrote: »I wouldn't assume that my neighbour's postcode would be the same because I live on the same street as them. The street I live on has houses numbered 1 to 85. It has different postcodes depending on your house number. You're assuming that every street is short enough to have its own postcode - that's not the case at all. And what happens with all the people who live near the boundaries of a postcode or postcode area? The nearest neighbour of someone who lives in AB30 might live in DD9, while someone who lives in AB39 is going to be at least 50 miles, maybe more, from someone who lives in AB38, while someone who lives in AB54 could have people who live in AB55, AB37 and AB36 as their nearest neighbours. Is it easier to get to IV51 from PH41 or from IV54?
Two separate issues. Yes, I agree that people get used to code (prefixes), whatever they are. But, why not use logical connections when that is possible?The second part of a UK postcode doesn't refer to an area within NE1 or whatever.
No London postcode area starts with L or LN or LD or anything to do with the word London at all. Some start with NW (north-west London) although NE (which one might logically assume stands for north-east London if one didn't know otherwise) is used for Newcastle, Gateshead and many other towns, villages and rural areas surrounding them. Gateshead has its own council but was traditionally in Co. Durham, being south of the River Tyne, the traditional boundary between Co. Durham and the county of Northumberland...
Do the letters NW instantly make you think of London when you hear them? If you didn't know that NW in a postcode referred to part of London would you have guessed that it did? And once you learned that NW referred to north-west London, would you have guessed that NE referred to north-east London if you didn't already know otherwise?
The areas I'm discussing here are not trivial anomalies within the overall UK postcode system - they are either areas of significant population (greater London has over 8.6 million people, the Tyneside conurbation has a population of about 1.2 million people) or huge geographical extent (the IV postcode area is nearly as big as Connacht while BT covers all of Northern Ireland).
I don't see how or why someone living 80+ miles from either Belfast or Inverness should feel any greater local connection with a BTXX or IVXX postcode, or why this should make it more memorable than someone living 10 miles from Cork city centre with a TXX routing key. IV51 is Portree and the north-eastern part of the Isle of Skye. Does that area spring to mind when you read or hear the letters IV? Do Derry or Strabane or Enniskillen or Armagh or Newry spring to mind when you read or hear the letters BT? If they do, is it because you're familiar with the fact that the BT postcode area covers all of Northern Ireland from many years of exposure to this fact? Or do the letters BT have some innate properties or characteristics that make you instantly think of Northern Ireland even if you know nothing about UK postcodes?
The reason people associate NW with London, NE with Gateshead, BT with Strabane and IV with Skye is because they know these postcodes already, because they've learned them, not because there's some instantly recognisable connection with the local areas or towns they cover.
There's nothing peculiarly difficult about learning to associate T12 with parts of Cork city and its surrounds compared to learning to associate IV51 with Portree of northern parts of the Isle of Skye.
Because of the complicated history, London postcodes had to be grandfathered into the system (much the same as Dublin postcodes did in Eircode) but the situation should have been much simpler here. Give Dublin the "D" postcodes. Give Galway "G". Give Cork "C". Limerick "L". Why didn't we do that?
The answer is that they explicitly decided that (outside of Dublin) Eircodes should have as little connection to recognisable areas as possible. If that was a good idea, then we should just have gone with loc8 or some other geocode.0 -
With Eircode, everyone's postcode is different. That makes them harder to remember. It's a fairly simple point.
Everyone's mobile phone number is different. Few people have trouble remembering a ten-digit number, despite the fact that it almost certainly differs from the rest of their household, never mind their neighbour.
I can remember my Eircode. I have no idea what my neighbours' Eircodes are, and I don't care. Knowing their Eircodes wouldn't make it easier to remember mine.
I could ask my brother for the postcode of two streets away from him - he probably couldn't tell me. It would probably have the same prefix as his, but who cares? It's not like that makes it any easier for him to remember his.
His company moved office recently. The new office has a different postcode from the old one. What's he going to do? Memorise the new one. It's not rocket surgery.0 -
oscarBravo wrote: »Everyone's mobile phone number is different. Few people have trouble remembering a ten-digit number, despite the fact that it almost certainly differs from the rest of their household, never mind their neighbour.
I can remember my Eircode. I have no idea what my neighbours' Eircodes are, and I don't care. Knowing their Eircodes wouldn't make it easier to remember mine.
I could ask my brother for the postcode of two streets away from him - he probably couldn't tell me. It would probably have the same prefix as his, but who cares? It's not like that makes it any easier for him to remember his.
His company moved office recently. The new office has a different postcode from the old one. What's he going to do? Memorise the new one. It's not rocket surgery.
Absolutly , the memory argument is simply infantile. IN fact all the arguments advanced against Eircode are based on " perceived" issues, not real one, i.e. people are manufacturing obscure and almost bizarre scenarios and then claiming eircode isn't fit for purpose.
Really, There are certain technical aspects of Eircode that can be questioned. But the overall implementation , giving its role as a post code, is quite a reasonable implementation. ( licensing costs aside )0 -
Fixed that for you. Are you involved with Eircode as a matter of interest? You mentioned something about NDAs recently which suggests you might be.Absolutly , the memory argument is simply infantile. IN factmy opinion, all the arguments advanced against Eircode are based on " perceived" issues, not real one, i.e. people are manufacturing obscure and almost bizarre scenarios and then claiming eircode isn't fit for purpose.
Really, There are certain technical aspects of Eircode that can be questioned. But the overall implementation , giving its role as a post code, is quite a reasonable implementation. ( licensing costs aside )0 -
Fixed that for you. Are you involved with Eircode as a matter of interest? You mentioned something about NDAs recently which suggests you might be.
not specifically. I'm involved in mapping software .
PS, plea advance your alternative "facts" about Eircode, not ones that are perceived issues about nonsensical issues
lets cover things like
(a) Does Eircode represent a GeoDirectory entry correctly
(B) Does Eircode aid or solve the non unique address issue
(c ) Is eircode difficult to implement on modern computer systems
(d) is eircode difficult to remember , more so then anything else
etc etc
Not crazy stuff about marketing , statistis analysis uses, the GPO , etc0 -
When the question of google licensing Eircode came up, you seemed to suggest it was coming but you were restricted by an NDA from saying exactly when. Does that mean you work with google, if you don't work with Eircode.
Anyhow, the arguments have been made numerous times and it's only because some posters keep ignoring them, that they keep getting repeated. Memorability is important and being able to relate codes to areas (whether or not the codes themselves correspond to the area names) is also important.
Apart from that, the main value of an open structured postcode is that people can make use of it without having to artificially license and pay rent for a product or data set purely to decode something that shouldn't need to be decoded. Anyone who knows anything about IT, or has more than one brain cell can see this.
If you run a small business serving a particular set of areas, you can put a map on the wall of the areas you cover and you just look at the map and you can tell where your customers are without needing a database or software. It's quite simple really. If software adds value to that, brilliant. In some cases it will. In others it won't.0 -
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If you dont mind, I wont answer any more personal questions as to my work , thanks for understandingAnyhow, the arguments have been made numerous times and it's only because some posters keep ignoring them, that they keep getting repeated. Memorability is important and being able to relate codes to areas (whether or not the codes themselves correspond to the area names) is also important.
Its been argued by many that remembering a 7 digit alphanumeric code is not difficult, People remember codes that are important to them and in general use, Eircodes may or may not be in that criteria for different people. Arguably remembering a hierarchical code is no better.
In all, this is a very very weak argument against Eircode .Apart from that, the main value of an open structured postcode is that people can make use of it without having to artificially license and pay rent for a product or data set purely to decode something that shouldn't need to be decoded. Anyone who knows anything about IT, or has more than one brain cell can see this.
NO , I dont agree, in order to at least try and implement data protection laws, there is a need to have (a) fully anonymised codes and (b) control access to the underlying address database. Other wise you have uncontrolled telemarketing etc ( and you have some of this issue in the UK) , also you have post code lottery type issues as well. IN my view, technically, Id prefer a complete anonymised code.
Again you argument is around the commercial costs of licensing Eircode/GeoDirectories , that an entirely different argument and one that is under reviewIf you run a small business serving a particular set of areas, you can put a map on the wall of the areas you cover and you just look at the map and you can tell where your customers are without needing a database or software. It's quite simple really. If software adds value to that, brilliant. In some cases it will. In others it won't.
This is not the purpose of a post code. With eircode and a licensed copy of GeoDirectories its easy to to what you say. a very small business can just analyse the text address anyway and buy a box of thumbtacks !. Your issue is more a function of licensing costs not Eircode per say0
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