Man Vs Black belt Woman?

sxt · 10-09-2010 12:24am #1

I know that katie Taylor would beat the hell out of most men her size but she is a professional fighter, one of the best in the world

I was speaking to a girl in work today and she was convinced that when a girl becomes a black belt in martial arts ,which her friend is, than she would have the beating of any untrained man of her equilvalent weight?

Does anyobody think this is possible

opinion guy · 10-09-2010 12:25am

To be honest I think more important is the discipline of the black belt rather than the sex of the fighter

Sid_Justice · 10-09-2010 12:32am

In what context? Street fight? MMA fight? Matching guys and girls up on weight isn't really that worth while either. You could get a 145 lb guy who could tear the arms of a 145 lbs woman.

I don't know enough aobut boxing to speculate how katie taylor would do with a a male, like she'd obviously knock the head of a beginner or intermediate boxer but put her in the ring with a male of her own age and weight and experience and she may not win. I'm going to go as far and say the guy would probably win due to size, if we gave her a 10 kg weight advantage maybe it would be fairer.

SO is the girl fighting a skinny muscle-less junkie hand bag thief or what?

I would also say a black belt in TKD (which seems the most popular ma for a girl to get a blaclbekt in my experience) to be almost completely and utterly worthless in either scenario.

sxt · 10-09-2010 12:34am

The girl in question was taekwondo but she said it didn't matter...I am probably wrong here but can't you get a black belt without ever sparring/ fighting? or being strong? Is it all about learning off moves?

sxt · 10-09-2010 12:42am

Sid_Justice wrote: »

In what context? Street fight? MMA fight? Matching guys and girls up on weight isn't really that worth while either. You could get a 145 lb guy who could tear the arms of a 145 lbs woman.

I don't know enough aobut boxing to speculate how katie taylor would do with a a male, like she'd obviously knock the head of a beginner or intermediate boxer but put her in the ring with a male of her own age and weight and experience and she may not win. I'm going to go as far and say the guy would probably win due to size, if we gave her a 10 kg weight advantage maybe it would be fairer.

SO is the girl fighting a skinny muscle-less junkie hand bag thief or what?

I would also say a black belt in TKD (which seems the most popular ma for a girl to get a blaclbekt in my experience) to be almost completely and utterly worthless in either scenario.

Okay yeah, say a Woman Black belt in any fighting disipline is against a skinny muscle-less junkie of similar weight ...I presume the woman would still need to have been in countless riglourless hours of sparring in order to defeat someone that is alot stronger?

opinion guy · 10-09-2010 12:49am

sxt wrote: »

Okay yeah, say a Woman Black belt in any fighting disipline is against a skinny muscle-less junkie of similar weight ...I presume the woman would still need to have been in countless riglourless hours of sparring in order to defeat someone that is alot stronger?

You've never fought a female Aikidoka so. They have a natural advantage over males with a lower centre of gravity and greater flexibility

10-09-2010 12:51am

sxt wrote: »

The girl in question was taekwondo but she said it didn't matter...I am probably wrong here but can't you get a black belt without ever sparring/ fighting? or being strong? Is it all about learning off moves?

Black belt in Taekwonda and Karate and most / many other disciplines is next to useless against someone fairly handy naturally. This lady seems a right numpty anyway, the better you get at any martial art or self defence the more you realise how vulnerable you are. You are correct about getting a black belt without sparring in many disciplines. I did kick boxing for a while years ago (I was not too good at it), we used to spar with each other. Few of the other folks had black belts in Karate, they didn't really rate it. In saying that a few other folks had 3rd, 4th Dan grades in Karate, they'd take your head off before you knew what was going on.

a World Champion kickboxer, at the peak of his physical powers and he was a big strong lean athlete, throughout the book he repeatedly gets in fights and whatnot, most of the time he conveys the fact that before a scrap he never ever counted his chickens.

Loads of folk who have never done any self defence reckon that after a year or two at it you'll be Jackie Chan and invincible, not true at all.

The old saying a little knowledge is a dangerous thing applies so so much to self defence in my opinion.

rom · 10-09-2010 12:53am

I think you can only solve this one with top trumps cards for the two parties :rolleyes:

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10-09-2010 12:54am

opinion guy wrote: »

You've never fought a female Aikidoka so. They have a natural advantage over males with a lower centre of gravity and greater flexibility

Aikido is a great example, most people doing it would puke their guts up at the thought of actually poking someone's eye out or breaking a finger / arm. It takes years to accustom oneself phychologicaly to inflict that sort of damage to somone.

sxt · 10-09-2010 1:30am

opinion guy wrote: »

You've never fought a female Aikidoka so. They have a natural advantage over males with a lower centre of gravity and greater flexibility

I Have no doubt that a fully commited Aikoka artist would beat a a man of a similar size..but I don't think that would be the norm

FruitLover · 10-09-2010 2:32am

sxt wrote: »

when a girl becomes a black belt in martial arts ,which her friend is, than she would have the beating of any untrained man of her equilvalent weight?

A) If a woman gets attacked, I'd imagine it's not likely that she'll be of equivalent weight to her attacker. Anyway, a man of equivalent weight would probably have more strength where it counts (plus any man who goes around attacking women presumably has plenty of experience in violence).

Not all black belts are equal (I mean this in terms of both the grade and the person) so it's impossible to say definitively that a 'black belt' is of 'x' capability. One black-belt might be a natural fighter, train hard, keep fit, etc. The next might have plodded through their gradings, see their martial art as more as a by-the-numbers routine than a fighting art, not think defensively when out and about, etc.

In summary: it's possible, but unlikely.

sxt wrote: »

The girl in question was taekwondo but she said it didn't matter...I am probably wrong here but can't you get a black belt without ever sparring/ fighting? or being strong? Is it all about learning off moves?

It's entirely possible (and common) for people to get to a black belt level in a martial art without being a proficient fighter. Whether this happens or not depends on the person, the club, the instructor(s), the organization and possibly even the martial art itself. There's (still) an awful lot of mysticism about the 'black belt' and martial arts in general that leads people to believe that a couple of years in a dojo will lead to abilities to defeat 5 armed baddies with a few twirling kicks and backwards somersaults (flaming tomahawks optional).

Doug Cartel · 10-09-2010 8:01am

opinion guy wrote: »

You've never fought a female Aikidoka so. They have a natural advantage over males with a lower centre of gravity and greater flexibility

Have you ever fought a female Aikidoka? Like actually fought, with hard contact?

yomchi · 10-09-2010 8:38am

RoverJames wrote: »

Black belt in Taekwonda and Karate and most / many other disciplines is next to useless against someone fairly handy naturally.

What if the black belt was also fairly handy naturally. Gotta love some of the wild generalisations that get flung around this forum from time to time. What experience have you got yourself?

yomchi · 10-09-2010 8:39am

sxt wrote: »

I know that katie Taylor would beat the hell out of most men her size but she is a professional fighter, one of the best in the world

Katie is an amateur fighter, not professional.

Pontificatus · 10-09-2010 8:42am

Too many variables. It almost doesnt matter if said person is a man or a woman, what matters is whether they can defend themselves in a live environment ie not on the mats with control and compliant opponents.

Katie Taylor (as would alot of boxers) would smash a man of similar weight and possibly a lot of heavier men simply because she trains in an actual combat sport against non compliant opponents.

conor678 · 10-09-2010 9:05am

My 2 cents is that in this hypothetical situation that if the lady in question is a black belt in a MA that actively trains in aliveness situations, i.e. spars regularly in training, such as Judo, BJJ or afaik Shokotan and Kempo (not 100% but think there's a karate that promotes regular sparring in order to move up ranks, open to correction here though) then the lady regularly trains in active situations so it is plausible that she could handle herself. For example wither throw the attacker, submit or choke him.
Tae Kwon Do not so much

Charlie3dan · 10-09-2010 9:14am

It's not the art and it's not the grade, it's the individual.

So no, not every female black belt will be able to handle any untrained man of the same weight.

Craptacular · 10-09-2010 9:38am

Pontificatus wrote: »

Katie Taylor (as would alot of boxers) would smash a man of similar weight and possibly a lot of heavier men simply because she trains in an actual combat sport against non compliant opponents.

No she doesn't. She trains and competes against people who have agreed to comply with rules. When was the last time she had someone kick her knee or throw a knee into her ribs?

That said I've no doubt Katie would kick my ass and I'm considerably bigger than her. She, as far as I can remember, grew up sparring with blokes and can undoubtedly take a dig and keep coming.

As for the original question, it depends entirely on the two individuals.

Pontificatus · 10-09-2010 10:01am

Craptacular wrote: »

No she doesn't. She trains and competes against people who have agreed to comply with rules. When was the last time she had someone kick her knee or throw a knee into her ribs?
.

I cant tell whether you're being serious or not. Think about what i meant by compliant opponent.

NG-DOC · 10-09-2010 10:15am

sxt wrote: »

I Have no doubt that a fully commited Aikoka artist would beat a a man of a similar size..but I don't think that would be the norm

I presume you mean a female Aikoka who is fully committed could defeat a male who wasn't trained in in "aikido match" or whatever the term is?

If you are suggesting that a female trained in aikido would beat an untrained man of similar size in a real life street fight/organized full contact fight. I'm afraid i'm definitely going to have to call you out on that one.

Doug Cartel · 10-09-2010 10:21am

NG-DOC wrote: »

If you are suggesting that a female trained in aikido would beat an untrained man of similar size in a real life street fight/organized full contact fight. I'm afraid i'm definitely going to have to call you out on that one.

For the record my issue was that sxt had framed his/her statement as if a woman's physiology actually gives her an advantage when using aikido in a fight.

All other things being equal, being bigger and stronger is always an advantage.

RedXIV · 10-09-2010 10:33am

When I used to train (years and years ago) in TKD, we used to do an awful lot of self-defence and other stuff that didn't really go along with the general syllabus of TKD. But I can remember when I was starting, at a good size (about 6ft4, 100KG) that there were two black belts girls that had been training for years and they were not able to do any of the self defence moves that had been taught to them to someone my size.

On the flip side, we went to another club for a sparring exercise and i had been in the club for about a year. Little bit cocky and they paired me up against this STUNNING black belt (think she was a 2nd Dan). Well she kicked me around the place, I couldn't even lay a finger on her.

I think she would have been fine but shows that from the 3 from my memory, only one would be ok fighting a man

Craptacular · 10-09-2010 10:35am

Pontificatus wrote: »

I cant tell whether you're being serious or not. Think about what i meant by compliant opponent.

I think what you mean is an opponent who will not just stand there and be hit but will try to punch and won't be holding back on the punches.

What I'm saying is that, while such an opponent is no picnic, they are still compliant in a way as they are agreeing only to punch and only to target certain areas and to take a break after a few minutes. Remove this compliance and, while the odds are still in Katie's favour, it's not so clear cut.

tallaght01 · 10-09-2010 10:46am

When I've dealt with women who've been attacked, one of the most common things they say to me is "I just froze".

It's not just about the body. It's about the head. A guy attacking a woman is likely trying to do some very bad things to her, which would add much more of a psychological edge to the proceedings than if you're a bloke who's being started on by some skanger who's just trying to be the big man in front of his mates.

Having said that, my bird is a 2nd degree BB in TKD and dealt out some whoop ass to a guy who tried to attack her on holidays.

antybots · 10-09-2010 11:02am

Hi,

I've just joined this forum and I've been reading a lot of posts on various topics. From what I can gather it seems that if I ever get in a fight in the street, I will prevail if :

A) I practice some form of ground fighting no matter who I am against.
b) I do no martial art at all and I'm fighting against someone who does a TMA.
c) I'm not a woman fighting a man.

Obviously I'm being a bit tongue in cheek, but I do find these opinions that 'joe average wins against useless TMA' really generalistic.

My own 2 cents are as follows :

There are so many variables to take in to account that it is impossible to state who would win any fight. Anybody can beat anybody else given differing circumstances and because you can never determine what circumstances are going to happen during a fight, saying who would beat who is just guesswork.
It just depends on the people involved.

TKD and Aikido seem to get a lot of stick on this forum. For what it's worth, I know a fair few ITF TKD blackbelts and while there are more than a few who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag, I also know more than a few who could bust you wide open. Again it depends on the persons attitude to fighting, not the art they are training.

I'm sure you could go through every martial art and find someone who is crap and someone who is great, so so you can't say what would work and what wouldn't as different things work for different people.

PS I've seen a few fights on the street and mostly the guys I knew who were martial artists won because they hit more often and with more accuracy than the dudes they were fighting, forcing the dude to cover up and end the fight (except one martial artist who fell over and got stomped into a coma).

I think the generalisations are harmful to people who are thinking of taking up a MA and come here looking for opinions.

Dermighty · 10-09-2010 12:10pm

sxt wrote: »

I know that katie Taylor would beat the hell out of most men her size but she is a professional fighter, one of the best in the world

I was speaking to a girl in work today and she was convinced that when a girl becomes a black belt in martial arts ,which her friend is, than she would have the beating of any untrained man of her equilvalent weight?

Does anyobody think this is possible

If the untrained man has aggression and cardio, she'll probably die.

If he does not, then she might be able to knock him out or pull off a choke/submission that he'd have no escape from.

I'll agree with the previous poster, this woman/girl sounds like an idiot.

HellsAngel · 10-09-2010 12:42pm

Sid_Justice wrote: »

I would also say a black belt in TKD (which seems the most popular ma for a girl to get a blaclbekt in my experience) to be almost completely and utterly worthless in either scenario.

yomchi wrote: »

What if the black belt was also fairly handy naturally. Gotta love some of the wild generalisations that get flung around this forum from time to time. What experience have you got yourself?

Yes Sid_Justice, what TKD experience have you got yourself?

HellsAngel · 10-09-2010 12:52pm

RoverJames wrote: »

Black belt in Taekwonda and Karate and most / many other disciplines is next to useless against someone fairly handy naturally. This lady seems a right numpty anyway, the better you get at any martial art or self defence the more you realise how vulnerable you are. You are correct about getting a black belt without sparring in many disciplines. I did kick boxing for a while years ago (I was not too good at it), we used to spar with each other. Few of the other folks had black belts in Karate, they didn't really rate it. In saying that a few other folks had 3rd, 4th Dan grades in Karate, they'd take your head off before you knew what was going on.

a World Champion kickboxer, at the peak of his physical powers and he was a big strong lean athlete, throughout the book he repeatedly gets in fights and whatnot, most of the time he conveys the fact that before a scrap he never ever counted his chickens.

Loads of folk who have never done any self defence reckon that after a year or two at it you'll be Jackie Chan and invincible, not true at all.

The old saying a little knowledge is a dangerous thing applies so so much to self defence in my opinion.

Contradicting yourself a bit there Rover ? Ok I'm posting this from a male perspective but like I stated in another discussion, TMA's such as Karate, TKD etc can give a guy the tools to defend yourself against Mr Average in striking. ( If it goes to the ground, your even as he knows little about ground grappling as Mr TMA does. Sorry but it's the truth )

Sid_Justice · 10-09-2010 1:43pm

yomchi wrote: »

Katie is an amateur fighter, not professional.

katie is a professional athlete competing in the sport of amateur boxing, she's on a irish sports council scholarship. it's not the same as being a professional soccer player but she's getting paid to train and that's my view on it.

Mr Cawley · 10-09-2010 1:58pm

katie taylor would knock out an average non trained man easily, she'd turn/step/swivel away from your attack and put one on your jaw before you'd blink!

10-09-2010 2:09pm

HellsAngel wrote: »

Contradicting yourself a bit there Rover ? Ok I'm posting this from a male perspective but like I stated in another discussion, TMA's such as Karate, TKD etc can give a guy the tools to defend yourself against Mr Average in striking. ( If it goes to the ground, your even as he knows little about ground grappling as Mr TMA does. Sorry but it's the truth )

How am I contradicting myself ? I reckon a black belt in karate is not great but I would highly rate the higher grades. Also earlier when I mentioned about someone naturally handy not being bothered by a black belt in karate I was referring to folk with a black belt who were not otherwise handy or aggressive. About my own experience, not much really, 2 years kick boxing which I have already said I was not good at, a weekend or two at krav maga. I would be quite street wise and have only been in one physical altercation in my near 30 years of city dwelling.

Chris89 · 10-09-2010 2:27pm

NG-DOC wrote: »

I presume you mean a female Aikoka who is fully committed could defeat a male who wasn't trained in in "aikido match" or whatever the term is?

If you are suggesting that a female trained in aikido would beat an untrained man of similar size in a real life street fight/organized full contact fight. I'm afraid i'm definitely going to have to call you out on that one.

This + 1000.

I'm notsure if aikido has a competitive element. To be honest any footage ive seen is of 10-15 seemingly compliant martial artists, running aimlessly at some old guy and letting him flip them over.

Fights (not talking about fight sports, but cringe at people saying street fight) are won and lost by either a huge haymaker or a load of lads jumping in. Unfortunately, the Jackie chane esque scenes that most of you seem to expect, are a load of bollocks and would never happen in the real world.

Katie taylor would beat my ass up. Some girl with sick wrestling would beat me up, same for Thai and kickboxing. But not aikido or similar. No way.

cowzerp · 10-09-2010 3:59pm

Your average muppet on the street who would windmill till he gassed out would beat the snot out of most Black belt women, In saying that the women in theory should be able to beat females who are the aggressors, the likes of Katie Taylor handles males of a very good standard in Boxing and would not go in the category im writing about here and would bust most lads faces into mush quite quickly, then the victim would prob get beaten again by males who would step in to give the women beater another going over for been a creep.

Craptacular · 10-09-2010 4:23pm

cowzerp wrote: »

Your average muppet on the street who would windmill till he gassed out would beat the snot out of most Black belt women.

Presumably if BB women can't beat average muppets then BB men will have similar problems with muppets that are bigger than them? So martial arts are a waste of time (except boxing because Katie Taylor is a girl and she could beat average muppets)?

cowzerp · 10-09-2010 4:25pm

Craptacular wrote: »

Presumably if BB women can't beat average muppets then BB men will have similar problems with muppets that are bigger than them? So martial arts are a waste of time (except boxing because Katie Taylor is a girl and she could beat average muppets)?

Martial arts? depends which 1, lots would struggle in a real fight-mainly the non competitive pressure tested ones, So Thai would be ok, Boxing, BJJ, Sanshou-i'm not going to name everything that actually fights with some reality involved!!

Craptacular · 10-09-2010 4:31pm

But female BBs in those martial arts would be destroyed by an average muppet? And, since we're not being sexist, presumably male BBs in those arts would get the snot kicked out of them by a muppet bigger than them who windmills until he gasses out?

Chris89 · 10-09-2010 4:34pm

To continue my post about the female aikido bb. The same would be the case for a male as far as I'm concerned.

There is martial arts. And there is fighting.

I may not hold an aikido blackbelt. But I reckon I could knock someone out or end a fight quickeR than they could. Whether they were male or female. and I'm
not even that good at boxing.

And to craptacular (ironic), I don't know if you are trying to play devils advocate. But your last post attemps to poke at cowzers argument without presenting one of it's own. Everyone can ask loaded questions. Weak.

My uncle has his own kenpo karate school. I may not agree with a lot of the techniques they use, but I know fr sure that he would kick the **** out of me. Not by utilising the dragon claw. But by decking me too hard in the nut.

There's a huge difference in my opinion, with sparring at te end of your aikido class. And an actual fight. Huge. Massive. Gargantuan.

Jayo_M · 10-09-2010 4:40pm

Chris89 wrote: »

There's a huge difference in my opinion, with sparring at te end of your aikido class. And an actual fight. Huge. Massive. Gargantuan.

The same could be said about amateur boxing and BJJ, no?

Craptacular · 10-09-2010 4:42pm

Chris89 wrote: »

I don't know if you are trying to play devils advocate. But your last post attemps to poke at cowzers argument without presenting one of it's own. Everyone can ask loaded questions. Weak.

Well pardon me. I didn't realise I'd broken the Rules of the Internet.

My point is simple. It's sexist garbage to claim that a female BB would be beaten by an average muppet but not extend that to male BBs and if we extend it to male BBs then martial arts are a waste of time. Otherwise we'll just have to forget the sexism and open minds to the possibility that there are female BBs out there who could hand out a beating to an average muppet if the situation arose.

Chris89 · 10-09-2010 4:53pm

Jayo_M wrote: »

The same could be said about amateur boxing and BJJ, no?

About bjj yeah, cause when we roll/spar there's no striking so it's not a fight. I can't remember the last time I saw an armbar outside coppers. Same way you wouldn't see anyone catching a real punch and making one of those flips like I see aikidos do on YouTube.

But surely amateur boxing is pretty close to a streetfight? A good boxer, male or female or even shemale would wreck me, or most lads who don't box r similar.

Chris89 · 10-09-2010 4:56pm

Craptacular wrote: »

Well pardon me. I didn't realise I'd broken the Rules of the Internet.

My point is simple. It's sexist garbage to claim that a female BB would be beaten by an average muppet but not extend that to male BBs and if we extend it to male BBs then martial arts are a waste of time. Otherwise we'll just have to forget the sexism and open minds to the possibility that there are female BBs out there who could hand out a beating to an average muppet if the situation arose.

Men are stronger than women. Fact

some martial arts are rubbish in a real fight. My opinion.

I'm not sexist.

Corcioch · 10-09-2010 5:04pm

sxt wrote: »

The girl in question was taekwondo but she said it didn't matter...I am probably wrong here but can't you get a black belt without ever sparring/ fighting? or being strong? Is it all about learning off moves?

You can get a black belt in Tae Kwon Do without even being able to effectively kick above your waist.

I practiced TKD for several years before moving on . . .to Judo . . .and while TKD is a very enjoyable sport if you compete . . .and is an enjoyable exercise for man and women . . . . it is not taught anymore in my experience as a martial art, it nothing like Krav or BJJ or Judo etc . .

I would go so far as to say its an enjoyable sport but thats about it imo.

But like many have said here, its not so much the art as mostly the artist that makes the difference. . . .but its not 100% the artist either to be fair, the art and what is learned, taught and practiced does make some difference, ill illustrate what I mean with an example.

Take 2 good strong agressive individuals, fairly equal . . . .send one off to train at TKD, be it ITF or WTF . . .send the other off to Mauy Thai . . . . .after a year or two of hard training I know who my money would be on . . . .the one with the tough shins!!!!!!! lol

And all belts are good for is holding your trousers up . . . . . B Lee.

Craptacular · 10-09-2010 5:39pm

Chris89 wrote: »

Men are stronger than women. Fact

some martial arts are rubbish in a real fight. My opinion.

I'm not sexist.

Yes, most men are stronger than most women but we're discussing black belts against average muppets. Assume for a second it's a black belt in one of the arts that are not, in your opinion, rubbish in a real fight. Since you brought up strength are you now suggesting that training is useless if the untrained opponent is stronger?

NG-DOC · 10-09-2010 6:04pm

Craptacular wrote: »

Yes, most men are stronger than most women but we're discussing black belts against average muppets. Assume for a second it's a black belt in one of the arts that are not, in your opinion, rubbish in a real fight. Since you brought up strength are you now suggesting that training is useless if the untrained opponent is stronger?

I can't speak for chris, but clearly if you take an average well built 90kg man who is strong, versus experienced tae kwon do black belt who is 60kg and frail, it's pretty obvious who's going to get crushed. So in my opinion yes training is useless to some extent depending on the size of the person.

This argument for the most part has turned ridiculous because there is so many variables to a fight it's ridiculous. oh what if he's big and has a hat, oh what if the woman is strong but the man has big hands, what if the man gets kicked in the nuts but it doesn't really hurt and the woman has a black belt in karate. We could do this all day.

My opinion is, the majority of men, black belt or not, will more than likely be able to beat up any woman, black belt or not, if they really wanted to.

Chris89 · 10-09-2010 6:09pm

NG-DOC wrote: »

I can't speak for chris, but clearly if you take an average well built 90kg man who is strong, versus experienced tae kwon do black belt who is 60kg and frail, it's pretty obvious who's going to get crushed. So in my opinion yes training is useless to some extent depending on the size of the person.

This argument for the most part has turned ridiculous because there is so many variables to a fight it's ridiculous. oh what if he's big and has a hat, oh what if the woman is strong but the man has big hands, what if the man gets kicked in the nuts but it doesn't really hurt and the woman has a black belt in karate. We could do this all day.

My opinion is, the majority of men, black belt or not, will more than likely be able to beat up any woman, black belt or not, if they really wanted to.

speak for me all you want, that's pretty much how I feel.

Craptacular · 10-09-2010 6:16pm

NG-DOC wrote: »

I can't speak for chris, but clearly if you take an average well built 90kg man who is strong, versus experienced tae kwon do black belt who is 60kg and frail, it's pretty obvious who's going to get crushed. So in my opinion yes training is useless to some extent depending on the size of the person.

Then I have to ask what is the point in anyone training in any martial art if the outcome of a fight with an untrained individual is pretty much down to size of the people fighting? Is it all just a big scam?

Chris89 · 10-09-2010 6:17pm

Craptacular wrote: »

Yes, most men are stronger than most women but we're discussing black belts against average muppets. Assume for a second it's a black belt in one of the arts that are not, in your opinion, rubbish in a real fight. Since you brought up strength are you now suggesting that training is useless if the untrained opponent is stronger?

You are answering this question yourself. Obviously if theartial art is good in a real fight and the individual is worth his salt as a black belt then he r she will win.

As Darragh said, there is a too many variables here to even consider arguing about it.

The only way to discuss it. Is to make generalizations. And we don't seemto be able to agree on them.

Chris89 · 10-09-2010 6:18pm

Craptacular wrote: »

Then I have to ask what is the point in anyone training in any martial art if the outcome of a fight with an untrained individual is pretty much down to size of the people fighting? Is it all just a big scam?

captain question strikes again.

NG-DOC · 10-09-2010 6:33pm

Craptacular wrote: »

Then I have to ask what is the point in anyone training in any martial art if the outcome of a fight with an untrained individual is pretty much down to size of the people fighting? Is it all just a big scam?

Well there is quite a lot of answers to this, but i'll try address some.

Training in martial arts can give you confidence, confidence in general is often key to avoiding conflict in the first place. Training also teaches you patients which can also be useful in conflict/conflict prevention.

Some people train martial arts for fitness

Some people train martial arts as a sport

I would also say that yes, quite a lot of martial arts are big scams, but that of course is circumstancial and depends entirely on the gym/dojo and it's marketing and what it's intending to teach.

Even brazilian jiu jitsu, considered for the most part to be the most superior martial art in terms of real life self defense, has it's flaws. There is no one system that you can learn that will result in instant victory in any street fight situation regardless of opponent.

People train martial arts for hundreds of reasons. maybe you could start a separate thread with that as the topic?

Finally, i never said it was all down to size. it's a critical factor for sure, but if a small man runs up behind a big man and smashes a bottle over his head, it kind of changes the situation. Yet again, the variables are far too many.

Craptacular · 10-09-2010 6:42pm

Chris89 wrote: »

You are answering this question yourself. Obviously if theartial art is good in a real fight and the individual is worth his salt as a black belt then he r she will win.

Except it can't be obvious as you and NG-DOC just agreed that it's the size of the dog in the fight that determines the winner. You can't have it both ways.

NG-DOC thanks for the long post but I'm not really looking to repeat the discussion on why people train. I think training and experience will stand to a person in a fight but obviously not everyone agrees.

(And just to keep Chris happy not a single question)

NG-DOC · 10-09-2010 6:45pm

Craptacular wrote: »

Except it can't be obvious as you and NG-DOC just agreed that it's the size of the dog in the fight that determines the winner. You can't have it both ways.

NG-DOC thanks for the long post but I'm not really looking to repeat the discussion on why people train. I think training and experience will stand to a person in a fight but obviously not everyone agrees.

(And just to keep Chris happy not a single question)

i didn't say that size was the only factor.

training experience definitely counts in a fight. but yet again, it's not the only factor.

are you starting to see the pattern here?

Man Vs Black belt Woman?

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