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FTP - Functional Threshold Power....how big is yours!!

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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    lol

    Don't know LOL.

    I fvcking hate Italians after fight club.

    (You can hook the videos up to a Computrainer via Golden Cheetah and that enforces absolute wattages for the 1-10 RPE, hurts)


  • Registered Users Posts: 767 ✭✭✭duffyshuffle


    tunney wrote: »
    Don't know LOL.

    I fvcking hate Italians after fight club.

    (You can hook the videos up to a Computrainer via Golden Cheetah and that enforces absolute wattages for the 1-10 RPE, hurts)

    I thought you were slagging using them. I use them every week or so, when a session fits the plan will sub it in. A Very Dark Place is good, Hell Hath no Fury which is the 2 x 20 is a killer. Angels has grown on me too.

    When i've the Edge and PT set up, i'll look at hooking up golden cheetah, using the watts off tacx at the moment for zones


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    I thought you were slagging using them. I use them every week or so, when a session fits the plan will sub it in. A Very Dark Place is good, Hell Hath no Fury which is the 2 x 20 is a killer. Angels has grown on me too.

    When i've the Edge and PT set up, i'll look at hooking up golden cheetah, using the watts off tacx at the moment for zones

    I was slagging you.

    Doesn't mean I don't like them :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 767 ✭✭✭duffyshuffle


    Ready (finally have a PT - don't ask...) to test tomorrow night. Have a Garmin Edge 500 and a power tap sl+. Did a spin on Saturday with it and had no issues. Had to locate satellites and spin a small bit before it would calibrate on the garmin edge.

    Do I need to calibrate every time with this combo?
    Should I leave auto-zero on the whole time?
    When using on the turbo, do you just turn GPS off on Edge?
    Do I need to warm up on turbo for a while before calibrating like on Tacx?

    Will do the test as prescribed in Coggan/Allen book. Anything else I need to make sure I do and don't do so my figures are all correct? E.g. stay cool with fan...

    Thanks

    PS its been quiet on re-tests, any updates anyone?


  • Registered Users Posts: 286 ✭✭dx22


    User|Starting FTP|Current FTP|Watts/kg|Target FTP|Target Watts/kg|Test|Unit
    Jackyback|284watts|284watts|4.17|325watts|5.00|T20+T20*0.95|Power2Max PM
    NWM2|285watts|294.5watts|3.46|310watts|3.7|T5+T20*0.95|Powertap SL+
    pgibbo|232watts|260watts|3.56|300watts|4.35|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max PM
    twonpelota|250 watts|250 watts|3.2|300watts|4.4|T5+T20*0.95|SRM
    Fazz|255 watts|270.75 watts|3.99|300 watts|4.4|T5+T20*0.95|Computrainer
    Nerraw|216 watts|216 watts|3.33|280 watts|4.3|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
    shotgunmcos|318 watts|325 watts|4.23|330watts|4.4|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
    RedB|230 watts|230 watts|2.55|290 watts|3.5|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow
    BennyMul| 253 watts |253 watts |3.4|290watts|4|T5+T20*0.95|Powertap SL2+
    Bobblehead_jr|345 watts|345 watts|4.9|390 watts|5.6|T5+T20*0.95| iBike iPro
    Macanri|237 watts|237 watts|3.22|?280watts|4.0|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow T2200
    Bambaata|322 watts|322 watts|4.17|340?watts|4.75|T5+T20*0.95|Power2Max PM
    dx22|239 watts|239 watts|3.07|300watts|4.28|T5+T20*0.95|Tacx Flow T2200



    Long time lurker first time poster in this particular thread (had to figure out all the terminology!)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,121 ✭✭✭Fazz


    Ready (finally have a PT - don't ask...) to test tomorrow night. Have a Garmin Edge 500 and a power tap sl+. Did a spin on Saturday with it and had no issues. Had to locate satellites and spin a small bit before it would calibrate on the garmin edge.

    Do I need to calibrate every time with this combo?
    Should I leave auto-zero on the whole time?
    When using on the turbo, do you just turn GPS off on Edge?
    Do I need to warm up on turbo for a while before calibrating like on Tacx?

    Will do the test as prescribed in Coggan/Allen book. Anything else I need to make sure I do and don't do so my figures are all correct? E.g. stay cool with fan...

    Thanks

    PS its been quiet on re-tests, any updates anyone?


    So how did you get on???

    I haven't had a retest since, but know my power is up a good bit recently so looking forward to next one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 767 ✭✭✭duffyshuffle


    Fazz wrote: »
    So how did you get on???

    I haven't had a retest since, but know my power is up a good bit recently so looking forward to next one.

    I've has a few spins on the PT including the test on the turbo.

    For the test I did 305W for 5 mins then 263W for the 20 mins. So looks like i'm 250W FTP. I pushed hard and felt it was a pretty well paced maximal effort.

    However, outdoors i've got totally different level of readings. A few days before that I held 297W for 20min effort at a steady effort, nowhere near max out, and last week I held 306W for a 20min effort while pushing hard in parts of it.

    I had been using auto-zero (or whichever one doesn't include zeroes while not spinning - now including it) and auto-pause on my garmin so they're now switched off but the above efforts didn't include stopping or descending IIRC.

    Do others find the variation in turbo vs outdoor that much?

    With a Garmin 500, do you use the auto zero to include zeroes?

    I'm racing Naas duathlon Sunday so we'll see what kind of 20min/30min AP I hold there to compare to turbo figures.


  • Registered Users Posts: 428 ✭✭big mce


    For those of us who don't have power meters (and won't be getting one any time soon as I've spent 2012's pocket money and it's only April) how wrong, or by how much of a margin of error is using HR going to be. Has anyone compared their threshold HR to their power. Can you do the T5 and T20 and then multply Avg HR * 0.95.

    I understand it won't be as good as your FTP but would it be fair indicator?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,121 ✭✭✭Fazz


    big mce wrote: »
    For those of us who don't have power meters (and won't be getting one any time soon as I've spent 2012's pocket money and it's only April) how wrong, or by how much of a margin of error is using HR going to be. Has anyone compared their threshold HR to their power. Can you do the T5 and T20 and then multply Avg HR * 0.95.

    I understand it won't be as good as your FTP but would it be fair indicator?

    T5 and T20 and Avg HR * .95 to get what? FTP in HR ?
    Don't think it means anything..

    For me, I do know roughly where my Power is for a given HR, assuming I'm in a certain gear and pushing a certain cadence.
    It can vary substantially when not, and also varies from start of session to end of session - i.e HR rises the more effort is prolonged at certain watts assuming decent intensity.

    So no, HR is not as accurate in my experience.
    Any numbers guessed would be just that. Guesswork.

    Regarding training with power, it's not needed but can help.

    There's nothing wrong with training by heart rate zones.
    You will not know your wattage, or watts per KG but what difference does that really make?
    You will know you're working hard based on being in Threshold/VO2 Max Zones and can train from there.

    But no, you cannot say I can do 20 mins at xxx heart rate therefore my watts are probably between xxx and xxx. It doesn't work like that.
    Everyone's HR is different, massively so in some cases.
    Take BTH, the man can hit sick heart rate levels I couldn't even touch.
    Does that mean he's at a higher intensity, or faster, or working harder? No.
    Heart rate is individual and very much so, just like heart rate zones.

    I've learned this only recently myself to be honest.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭BTH


    Fazz wrote: »
    Take BTH, the man can hit sick heart rate levels I couldn't even touch.
    Does that mean he's at a higher intensity, or faster, or working harder? No.

    Eh, yes it does. Man up Fazz!!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,454 ✭✭✭ Miles Embarrassed Ubiquity


    big mce wrote: »
    For those of us who don't have power meters (and won't be getting one any time soon as I've spent 2012's pocket money and it's only April) how wrong, or by how much of a margin of error is using HR going to be. Has anyone compared their threshold HR to their power. Can you do the T5 and T20 and then multply Avg HR * 0.95.

    I understand it won't be as good as your FTP but would it be fair indicator?

    That calculation for FTP does not work for HR
    Problem with using hr on short sets or intervals is that it takes time to bring it up to threshold level. For example say you have a session with 4x5min bursts @ threshold effort, well power you can dial in straight away whilst hr will take a while to get to threshold levels and by the time you hit it the interval it could be close to over and the effort could work out below or over the required effort.
    Using hr on longer races from OLY upwards or longer intervals could prove useful though. Do you have a recent race over 45mins when you were flat out? Failing that a test you could do is an all out ride (ideally turbo for controlled conditions) from 45 to 60mins to identify what your threshold hr is on the bike. At least that way whilst racing or longer sets/intervals you will have an idea of what % of your threshold hr you are working at. Better than nothing but not ideal for shorter intervals due to delay in getting hr up.
    From riding with power i have a good idea of what power i can hold at threshold hr and a power range i can hold in each hr zone.

    Hope that helps


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭shotgunmcos


    I don't have a power meter and again this year I'll use HR (and RPE) to judge my IM pace/output

    To keep it simple. Take T5+T20 and capture your AVGHR for the T20. Its not exact but it will be a pretty good estimate at what your LTHR is and is a decent enough place to work out your zones from. Derive your IM pace zone from it and practice the pace on your long rides. Listen to your body and judge the pace by 'feel' as well as what the HRM is telling you.

    Again not exact but I'd base my IM pace on approx 80-90% of my LTHR with an intention to stay closer to 80% and using 90% as a strict ceiling.

    My IM bike split last year was roughly 83% avg of LTHR


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,454 ✭✭✭ Miles Embarrassed Ubiquity


    I don't have a power meter and again this year I'll use HR (and RPE) to judge my IM pace/output

    To keep it simple. Take T5+T20 and capture your AVGHR for the T20. Its not exact but it will be a pretty good estimate at what your LTHR is and is a decent enough place to work out your zones from. Derive your IM pace zone from it and practice the pace on your long rides. Listen to your body and judge the pace by 'feel' as well as what the HRM is telling you.

    Again not exact but I'd base my IM pace on approx 80-90% of my LTHR with an intention to stay closer to 80% and using 90% as a strict ceiling.

    My IM bike split last year was roughly 83% avg of LTHR

    Would you not require a longer period of time for testing. I have read a longer test of 45mins to 60mins should be used to determine threshold hr.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭shotgunmcos


    Would you not require a longer period of time for testing. I have read a longer test of 45mins to 60mins should be used to determine threshold hr.

    Yep a longer test would be more accurate but a 60 min LTHR test would be torture and affect sessions for the next couple of days


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭peter kern


    and whats wrong with that once in a while ?
    whats more |"specific' than a 40k tt at oly distance pace ???


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    peter kern wrote: »
    and whats wrong with that once in a while ?
    whats more |"specific' than a 40k tt at oly distance pace ???

    And a 40km at oly distance pace is useful how in determining your FTP Peter?

    A 40km TT yes, at oly distance pace. no.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,454 ✭✭✭ Miles Embarrassed Ubiquity


    Yep a longer test would be more accurate but a 60 min LTHR test would be torture and affect sessions for the next couple of days

    I know the training impact it would have alright compared to a T5+T20. The fact is you would not be repeat testing as much/if any over a season compared to your typical FTP testing which you would do throughout the season.
    I just think the 20mins is too short to determine an accurate threshold hr for the bike and that a 60min threshold test as a once off would be worth the trade off to get an accurate threshold number to work off.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭peter kern


    And a 40km at oly distance pace is useful how in determining your FTP Peter?
    i said its tri specific ;-)
    and its not more guessing than doing the coggan protocol if you use your own brain rather than given formulas.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭shotgunmcos


    peter kern wrote: »
    and whats wrong with that once in a while ?
    whats more |"specific' than a 40k tt at oly distance pace ???

    Nothing wrong with it. How would you derive your LTHR from that data, specificlly to establish zones for long distance?

    A flat out 40TT I get but an Oly dist 40TT is a reserved effort


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭peter kern


    i hope its ok if i dodnt answer that, as i have spend enough time on it to find my ways and . unfortunately coaching pays my bills.
    Sorry.
    The only thing i will say about 70% of my athletes i dodnt coach with zones.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    peter kern wrote: »
    i hope its ok if i dodnt answer that, as i have spend enough time on it to find my ways and . unfortunately coaching pays my bills.
    Sorry.
    The only thing i will say about 70% of my athletes i dodnt coach with zones.

    The pertinent question would be - is it the 30% that are successful?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,454 ✭✭✭mloc123


    peter kern wrote: »
    i hope its ok if i dodnt answer that, as i have spend enough time on it to find my ways and . unfortunately coaching pays my bills.
    Sorry.
    The only thing i will say about 70% of my athletes i dodnt coach with zones.

    Peter, your website is hosed. I would not recommend visiting it on a windows machine unless you like fake virus scanning software installed...


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭peter kern


    mloc123 wrote: »
    Peter, your website is hosed. I would not recommend visiting it on a windows machine unless you like fake virus scanning software installed...

    thank you !!!!!!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭peter kern


    tunney wrote: »
    The pertinent question would be - is it the 30% that are successful?

    90% of athletes what you might call successful are not given zones.


    ps what is success? the ones that win races or the ones that really perform to their personal best but dodnt have the talent to win ?

    winning is not necessarily what i call success.
    getting the best out of yourself is success to me.

    the athletes I have found to be successful that have trust in the first place and willing to try new stuff.
    the ones that usually under perform are mostly those who ask 100 different people for advice and think or worry to much.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    peter kern wrote: »
    90% of athletes what you might call successful are not given zones.


    ps what is success? the ones that win races or the ones that really perform to their personal best but dodnt have the talent to win ?

    winning is not necessarily what i call success.
    getting the best out of yourself is success to me.

    the athletes I have found to be successful that have trust in the first place and willing to try new stuff.
    the ones that usually under perform are mostly those who ask 100 different people for advice and think or worry to much.

    I've only ever experienced what I deem success once.
    One time at band camp at a race someone came over to me and said "Hallo Dave Tummy, how are you?" then they did a double take and said "Oh Dave Tunney is here today, this could be interesting". Oh how the memory of that day make me feel warm inside :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭peter kern


    ok but to be seen as a trouble maker you did not have to spend 10000 euro on gear .....;-)


  • Registered Users Posts: 428 ✭✭big mce


    So in summary, Do all out 5+20 tt and take LTHR from that, then lose tunney, i mean tummy and spend €1000 on gear. Big ask I think!:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    peter kern wrote: »
    ok but to be seen as a trouble maker you did not have to spend 10000 euro on gear .....;-)

    Nope. To be seen as a trouble maker all you have to do is DQ 4 people for cheating :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,454 ✭✭✭ Miles Embarrassed Ubiquity


    big mce wrote: »
    So in summary, Do all out 5+20 tt and take LTHR from that, then lose tunney, i mean tummy and spend €1000 on gear. Big ask I think!:)

    No I would go with a 45 to 60 min test best effort, it will give you more accurate results. It will hurt but there should be no need for re testing.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 428 ✭✭big mce


    No I would go with a 45 to 60 min test best effort, it will give you more accurate results. It will hurt but there should be no need for re testing.

    Thanks for this. When would be a good time to test, as I would assume the closer to Barcelona would be better as this value would be changing all the time as your getting fitter (hopefully!) throughout the season, or are you continously testing, going on long rides using this figure and sussing how you feel?


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