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M17/M18 - Gort to Tuam [open to traffic]

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    #3812
    Geogregor
    Registered Users Posts: 397 ✭✭Geogregor


    Schadenfreudia wrote: »
    That takes eons! Many of our 18th country houses are built of limestone and still in perfect condition.
    red bull wrote: »
    Castle's and round towers built centuries ago of limestone are still standing and many occupied.

    OK, I got the message.
    I was taking too much of a geographer, or even geologist, approach, long term one ;)


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    #3813
    aw
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭aw


    marno21 wrote: »
    Surprised they didn't take the opportunity to create a fully free flow junction in the middle of absolutely nowhere where land costs are not high.

    The rejigged soon to be signalised roundabout must have cost nearly as much.

    Coming late into this discussion, I'm curious about this...

    Why would they not have considered this at design time?

    Is there a known reason that the current design was chosen?

    Would the free-flow method be significantly better - better enough to justify the land costs?

    Or was it a shortsighted decision that will lead to costly changes in a few years?


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    #3814
    m17
    Registered Users Posts: 4,322 ✭✭✭m17


    aw wrote: »
    Coming late into this discussion, I'm curious about this...

    Why would they not have considered this at design time?

    Is there a known reason that the current design was chosen?

    Would the free-flow method be significantly better - better enough to justify the land costs?

    Or was it a shortsighted decision that will lead to costly changes in a few years?
    The could have went with a whirlpool layout,with all that cheap land


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    #3815
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    aw wrote: »
    Why would they not have considered this at design time?

    Low projected traffic volumes - this isn't the M50 crossing the N6.


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    #3816
    paul2013
    Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭paul2013


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Low projected traffic volumes - this isn't the M50 crossing the N6.

    Them brainy architects that have flooded Ireland with water could have easily built a junction like the Junction 12 for Ennis on the M18 or like Junction 9 for Shannon Airport on the N18


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    #3817
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Schadenfreudia wrote: »
    Surprised they didn't take the opportunity to underground the ESB wires at the junction.

    The re-jigged pylons must have cost nearly as much.

    The esb would have had to buy land to fence off where the wires transitioned from overground to underground.
    They might have had to cpo the land, and there go your savings.


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    #3818
    D Trent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,341 ✭✭✭D Trent


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    The esb would have had to buy land to fence off where the wires transitioned from overground to underground.
    They might have had to cpo the land, and there go your savings.

    Why can't the lines transition within the confines of the junction on NRA's /TII's land ?


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    #3819
    Schadenfreudia
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Schadenfreudia


    m17 wrote: »
    The could have went with a whirlpool layout,with all that cheap land

    That would have been nice for Ireland's only autobahnkreuz. :)


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    #3820
    mackerski
    Registered Users Posts: 2,278 ✭✭✭mackerski


    paul2013 wrote: »
    Them brainy architects that have flooded Ireland with water could have easily built a junction like the Junction 12 for Ennis on the M18 or like Junction 9 for Shannon Airport on the N18

    But why? Those are crappy junctions, even worse than what we are getting:

    http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/52.8269/-8.9351
    http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/52.7262/-8.8780

    In no way would you want a junction like that on a motorway-motorway connection (no, I'm not keen on the stack either).


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    #3821
    Geogregor
    Registered Users Posts: 397 ✭✭Geogregor


    Schadenfreudia wrote: »
    That would have been nice for Ireland's only autobahnkreuz. :)

    It is quite funny that it is located that far from main population centre of the island ;)

    Sure, the design might not perfect but with the traffic levels predicted here the current junction should handle the traffic without problems.


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    #3822
    Schadenfreudia
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Schadenfreudia


    Geogregor wrote: »
    It is quite funny that it is located that far from main population centre of the island ;)

    Sure, the design might not perfect but with the traffic levels predicted here the current junction should handle the traffic without problems.

    Easy to fix if that's required in the next 30 years - which is highly unlikely.

    Remember they built junctions like that on the M50 originally - now that was daft!


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    #3823
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,353 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Schadenfreudia wrote: »
    Easy to fix if that's required in the next 30 years - which is highly unlikely.

    Remember they built junctions like that on the M50 originally - now that was daft!


    There is still four of them on Cork's South Ring.

    In Dublin, signalised roundabouts were upgraded to full free flow. In Cork at grade signalised roundabouts were upgraded to grade separated signalised roundabouts.

    Why didn't they decide to build a full freeflownjunction here. No point in building a motorway if you are going to put roundabouts at major interchanges


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    #3824
    Schadenfreudia
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Schadenfreudia


    marno21 wrote: »

    Why didn't they decide to build a full freeflownjunction here. No point in building a motorway if you are going to put roundabouts at major interchanges

    Well, that's a wee bit OTT!

    I guess roundabouts are cheaper....and we don't like to overspend on infrastructure, do we?


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    #3825
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,353 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Schadenfreudia wrote: »
    Well, that's a wee bit OTT!

    I guess roundabouts are cheaper....and we don't like to overspend on infrastructure, do we?

    Slightly OT, but look at Waterford. A motorway (M9) with free flowing traffic at 120km/h. All dumped into a pair of roundabouts. If you are going to the expense of building a motorway you should have equally high quality, high capacity junctions to deal with the motorway traffic.

    Same story here, free flowing traffic at 120km/h should not have to use a roundabout to change between roads. AADT does not come into this, if traffic volumes justify a motorway then they surely justify a free flow junction.


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    #3826
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    marno21 wrote: »
    AADT does not come into this, if traffic volumes justify a motorway then they surely justify a free flow junction.

    Traffic volumes here do not justify motorways - the M6 was planned as a dualler.

    But hey, Celtic tiger, loadsamoney, etc.


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    #3827
    D Trent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,341 ✭✭✭D Trent


    Site selected
    http://galwaybayfm.ie/step-forward-for-controversial-motorway-service-station-between-athenry-and-oranmore/


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    #3828
    Irish_rat
    Registered Users Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭Irish_rat


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Traffic volumes here do not justify motorways - the M6 was planned as a dualler.

    But hey, Celtic tiger, loadsamoney, etc.

    It's called future proofing. In the NRA needs study manual it listed projections for traffic over a period of 20 years.

    Type 2 dual carriageway is short-sighted on a major inter-urban road. I think it's been a crucial aspect in the recovery of this country. The one thing the Celtic Tiger delivered.


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    #3829
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Irish_rat wrote: »
    It's called future proofing. In the NRA needs study manual it listed projections for traffic over a period of 20 years.

    So, what's the biggest projected traffic number for the M17-18?


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    #3830
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Traffic volumes here do not justify motorways - the M6 was planned as a dualler.

    But hey, Celtic tiger, loadsamoney, etc.
    Apart form the sign colour and speedlimit, what's the difference between a HQDC and motorway?


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    #3831
    Reuben1210
    Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭Reuben1210


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    Apart form the sign colour and speedlimit, what's the difference between a HQDC and motorway?

    Spacing of junctions, all junctions grade-separated, and any vehicles under 60cc not permitted, including bikes. In addition, no farm machinery permitted.


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    #3832
    aw
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭aw


    D Trent wrote: »
    Site selected
    http://galwaybayfm.ie/step-forward-for-controversial-motorway-service-station-between-athenry-and-oranmore/

    Would this not have been ideally located at or near the Rathmorrissy interchange, serving both routes?

    It seems Pat McDonagh has stolen a march on it for the M6.

    A literal feast or famine for service stations!


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    #3833
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,415 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    Apart form the sign colour and speedlimit, what's the difference between a HQDC and motorway?

    The cost.

    There was no need to build a full motorway spec road on the M6 west of Athlone as the traffic does not warrant it and never will. A grade separated dualler would have done at probably less than half the cost. It would also not have needed the toll.

    The M17/M18 is also overspecced and a grade speparated dualler would also have done the job - after all they will be extending northward with a dualler.


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    #3834
    red bull
    Registered Users Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭red bull


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    The cost.

    There was no need to build a full motorway spec road on the M6 west of Athlone as the traffic does not warrant it and never will. A grade separated dualler would have done at probably less than half the cost. It would also not have needed the toll.

    The M17/M18 is also overspecced and a grade speparated dualler would also have done the job - after all they will be extending northward with a dualler.

    There we go again, west of the Shannon is a different country


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    #3835
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,847 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    The cost.

    There was no need to build a full motorway spec road on the M6 west of Athlone as the traffic does not warrant it and never will. A grade separated dualler would have done at probably less than half the cost. It would also not have needed the toll.

    The M17/M18 is also overspecced and a grade speparated dualler would also have done the job - after all they will be extending northward with a dualler.

    But there is no physical difference between HQDC which was being built anyway and motorway. I'm not even sure the Ennis bypass section of the M18 was a HQDC and that got upgraded to motorway.


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    #3836
    m17
    Registered Users Posts: 4,322 ✭✭✭m17


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    So, what's the biggest projected traffic number for the M17-18?

    There right here


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    #3837
    m17
    Registered Users Posts: 4,322 ✭✭✭m17


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    The cost.

    There was no need to build a full motorway spec road on the M6 west of Athlone as the traffic does not warrant it and never will. A grade separated dualler would have done at probably less than half the cost. It would also not have needed the toll.

    The M17/M18 is also overspecced and a grade speparated dualler would also have done the job - after all they will be extending northward with a dualler.
    The m6 athlone to galway is one of the best motorways in the country


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    #3838
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    m17 wrote: »
    There right here

    Thanks, m17, but those are the projected 2014 numbers, not the projected 2034 numbers which apparently require a freeflow motorway junction.

    I am quite happy to see them overspecify this road - I just think folks saying this junction is underspecced should show some numbers.


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    #3839
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,415 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    m17 wrote: »
    There right here

    11,800 daily traffic to/from Limerick is less than 500 per hour or more than 7 seconds between cars. Hardly busy.

    How are these figures derived? Is there a published methodology? Is it the same methodology used to justify the Western Rail Corridor?


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    #3840
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,353 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Reuben1210 wrote: »
    Spacing of junctions, all junctions grade-separated, and any vehicles under 60cc not permitted, including bikes. In addition, no farm machinery permitted.

    All junctions on a HQDC are grade seperated. Vehicles under 50cc, bikes and tractors are permitted on a HQDC. A motorway is a HQDC with access restrictions.
    aw wrote: »
    Would this not have been ideally located at or near the Rathmorrissy interchange, serving both routes?

    It seems Pat McDonagh has stolen a march on it for the M6.

    A literal feast or famine for service stations!

    It was originally planned to be tacked onto the roundabout at Rathmorrissey. There seems to be someone in TII who really, really wants a service area between J19 and J17 on the M6. It's baffling why it's so important there's one there.
    Sam Russell wrote: »
    The cost.

    There was no need to build a full motorway spec road on the M6 west of Athlone as the traffic does not warrant it and never will. A grade separated dualler would have done at probably less than half the cost. It would also not have needed the toll.

    The M17/M18 is also overspecced and a grade speparated dualler would also have done the job - after all they will be extending northward with a dualler.

    The M17/M18 is overspecced for a Gort-Tuam motorway. If it was a Gort-Galway & Tuam-Galway it would warrant a higher grade of road.
    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    But there is no physical difference between HQDC which was being built anyway and motorway. I'm not even sure the Ennis bypass section of the M18 was a HQDC and that got upgraded to motorway.

    There isn't. The Ennis bypass was a standard DC which was redesignated as motorway. You can see it even with how narrow the hard shoulders are, and how tight the curves on the Barefield (J14) junction are.


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    #3841
    Reuben1210
    Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭Reuben1210


    aw wrote: »
    Would this not have been ideally located at or near the Rathmorrissy interchange, serving both routes?

    It seems Pat McDonagh has stolen a march on it for the M6.

    A literal feast or famine for service stations!

    Touché


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