The Tipperary GAA (Club and intercounty) Discussion thread 2014

Moyorris · 28-09-2014 8:30pm

Would there be any point in having 2 teams in the County,to involve more players.
In other words,a Tipp North Selection and a Mid/South/West Selection,who would play each other in Training.It might uncover some new players,like Underdogs did Donaghy for Kerry.

hinault · 28-09-2014 8:38pm

Xenophile wrote: »

All said and done it was a great year for Tipperary Hurling, so thanks to all involved, spectators, supporters, management and most of all the lads wearing the Blue and Gold on the field and on the bench.

Yes, despite not winning the replay I think Tipperary can take a hell of a lot out of this season. The improvement has been excellent this season.

I think O'Shea is building a team that is starting to go places. Incremental improvement. I think though next season will be decisive. O'Shea has got his team to the All Ireland final. His team needs to win an All Ireland to push that improvement along. Easier said than done of course.

28-09-2014 9:14pm

Moyorris wrote: »

Would there be any point in having 2 teams in the County,to involve more players.
In other words,a Tipp North Selection and a Mid/South/West Selection,who would play each other in Training.It might uncover some new players,like Underdogs did Donaghy for Kerry.

That might'nt be a bad idea at all. There could be hidden gems in small clubs in the West and South that are being overlooked. Being loyal to the status quo is all very noble and all but were a massive county and I think that we're fairly under utilised. I mean none of Clonmel, Carrick, and Tipperary Town have anyone challenging for spots on the panel. This really needs to be looked at. Competition really needs to be intensified within the County. Having a settled squad is fine but those players should have to fight tooth and nail for their spots. Now our lads have done really well this year but we really need to keep squeezing that extra 10% out because we're not far off.

Brian Cody told his players last winter that they were fighting for the right to wear the black and amber of Kilkenny in 2014. Over 60 players were tried out. Every one faced uncertainty including some of the greats of the game with their pockets stuffed with Celtic crosses. The man is cold and ruthless (in sporting terms) and as a result he stands tonight as a champion for the tenth time as Kilkenny manager in 15 years and 16 seasons of management.

28-09-2014 9:25pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

A faiir assessment and like you say the finer or simpler things let us down again. We need to be as determined and concentrated as kk are. As in the limerick game and periods of the galway game we seem to be waiting for things to happen rather than grabbing the game by the scruff of the neck. Another thing we need to do is have the co board sit down with EOS and his selectors and give them a long term,5or6 year term of office. This thing of changing managers every few years has to stop. Anyway, another winter lies ahead listening to the Cats rubbing it in.

Totally agree with the whole area of managerial stability. Such a pity Sheedy left in 2010 because he placed such emphasis on work rate. All of a sudden we went from a winter of being All Ireland champions to one of uncertainty regarding who would take the job.

Tommy and Declan just hadnt the knowledge or experience to bring to table. Id back O'Shea to get more time but i think he needs to really learn from the mistakes he made this year. There was several moments of indecisiveness and a few puzzling decisions throughout the year. He seemed uncertain of his personnel beyond his starting fifteen and yesterday i felt he was devoid of a plan B.

evolving tipperary · 28-09-2014 9:29pm

I think winning something is essential - preferably in championship - munster or the all-ireland. Huge strides this year - in terms of attitude, fortitude and hurling.
The problem with this game plan when you have so many stick men is you need everything to go right - still a decision to make regarding four stylists - seamus and bubbles are two to build around - we need to move on from Noel and Lar - they can be great Subs now - but unless Noel can find his 2010 form he shouldn't be on the team - we need four tanks alongside bubbles and callinan - to work a defence and be able to get up and win ball. Athletes like Niall o'Meara, John McGRATH (maybe) - liam mcgrath too similar to noel (good sub though) - Colin O'Riordan maybe, John Meagher in defence - might be a case for trying Brendan Maher in the forwards -

Maybe Connor Kenny, or Seamus Kenny or someone can come out of nowhere and bring something to it -

Some of the comments on the match are misplaced...To criticize O'Shea i find baffling regarding subs - same thing all year really - he got the most out of Seamie and a lot of other players grew under him - we lacked cleverness in the forwards- taking the point - engineering a free, and using the short grip was lacking at times - but that's all fine and dandy when some of the greatest defenders who ever played are breathing down your neck continually

I do have one gripe - but its not very moral - i just felt that when kk continually beat us in teh forwards in the second half to ball - someone might break a hurl or start a scrap - anything to try and break the trend of fast ball coming out - but no...but it's hardly a fair criticism

a lot of lads had a go at Darren Gleeson and O'Shea on this forum and need to pull their heads in!!!! The great hurlers on the ditch!!!!
I had a right go at Shane McgRATH AT TIMES THIS YEAR and he delivered big time at the business end of the season. Good for him.
we need continuity more than any thing now in terms of management - but i would like to see at least one of Eddie Enright, Mark O'Leary or William Maher as selectors or coaching in some capacity with a view to learning their intercouty trade and building a relationship with players they will take over from...I'd like to see O'Shea get a 2 or 3 year extension so everyone knows where they stand

evolving tipperary · 28-09-2014 9:30pm

What decisions?

What plan b should he have enacted?

DT100 · 28-09-2014 9:49pm

evolving tipperary wrote: »

I think winning something is essential - preferably in championship - munster or the all-ireland. Huge strides this year - in terms of attitude, fortitude and hurling.
The problem with this game plan when you have so many stick men is you need everything to go right - still a decision to make regarding four stylists - seamus and bubbles are two to build around - we need to move on from Noel and Lar - they can be great Subs now - but unless Noel can find his 2010 form he shouldn't be on the team - we need four tanks alongside bubbles and callinan - to work a defence and be able to get up and win ball. Athletes like Niall o'Meara, John McGRATH (maybe) - liam mcgrath too similar to noel (good sub though) - Colin O'Riordan maybe, John Meagher in defence - might be a case for trying Brendan Maher in the forwards -

Maybe Connor Kenny, or Seamus Kenny or someone can come out of nowhere and bring something to it -

Some of the comments on the match are misplaced...To criticize O'Shea i find baffling regarding subs - same thing all year really - he got the most out of Seamie and a lot of other players grew under him - we lacked cleverness in the forwards- taking the point - engineering a free, and using the short grip was lacking at times - but that's all fine and dandy when some of the greatest defenders who ever played are breathing down your neck continually

I do have one gripe - but its not very moral - i just felt that when kk continually beat us in teh forwards in the second half to ball - someone might break a hurl or start a scrap - anything to try and break the trend of fast ball coming out - but no...but it's hardly a fair criticism

a lot of lads had a go at Darren Gleeson and O'Shea on this forum and need to pull their heads in!!!! The great hurlers on the ditch!!!!
I had a right go at Shane McgRATH AT TIMES THIS YEAR and he delivered big time at the business end of the season. Good for him.
we need continuity more than any thing now in terms of management - but i would like to see at least one of Eddie Enright, Mark O'Leary or William Maher as selectors or coaching in some capacity with a view to learning their intercouty trade and building a relationship with players they will take over from...I'd like to see O'Shea get a 2 or 3 year extension so everyone knows where they stand

So the manager should have told them "If Kilkenny are beating ye to the ball,start a scrap or break a hurl"?:D

tippspur · 28-09-2014 9:50pm

Devastated today after that result in Croke park yesterday.if we were beaten by any other County I could take it a bit better but to lose to the cats yet again is very hard to stomach.

28-09-2014 9:53pm

evolving tipperary wrote: »

What decisions?

What plan b should he have enacted?

Bringing Eoin Kelly on for starters in the drawn game was insanity when Kilkenny were on the ropes. It was a complete waste of a sub. Kelly was a wonderful player but unfortunately his time is long gone. Whatever about having him around the panel as a leader, to bring him on in a game of such magnitude when the game was in the melting pot was beyond ludicrous.

I felt Denis Maher was treated shabbily this year too to be honest. Take the league final. He scored two points off Cillian Buckley and gave him a torrid time. He was taken off and Buckley stormed into the game. For the drawn final and replay Buckley was one of Kilkenny's stand out players. Now i dont mean to be harsh on Gar i realise he does work very hard and has great mobility but he doesnt offer that scoring threat. There's a bit more hurling in Maher. That said Maher even fell down the pecking order on the bench

Although id have left Gar on before Noel yesterday. Perhaps have both Maher and Gar on the field. Maher under the high ball and Gar sweeping up the breaks perhaps?

As for plan B, well yesterday his subs came too late. When Kilkenny got the third unanswered point was the time to spring Cahill from the bench. Forde and Bourke were given far too little time to settle into the game too. I do see the sense in O'Mahony given that Kilkenny were piercing right through us but 64th minute was a bit late in the day after conceding two goals.

We have a good bedrock going forward but it will be worth nothing if management dont take stock and address where we possibly went wrong

28-09-2014 10:05pm

tippspur wrote: »

Devastated today after that result in Croke park yesterday.if we were beaten by any other County I could take it a bit better but to lose to the cats yet again is very hard to stomach.

Given that they are right on my doorstep its pretty galling but putting rivalry to one side for a moment, we were beaten by an exceptional side who leave no stone unturned and leave very little margin for error against them.

But i just get the niggling feeling that despite their excellent display that we could have done more. Got an extra 10% from our performance.

evolving tipperary · 28-09-2014 10:07pm

Not exactly - but It should be within players at times to be so frustrated that this happens...maybe other teams do it in sport - break another teams rhythm - go down injured, put in a rough tackle...cause the flow of the game to halt...

28-09-2014 10:11pm

Xenophile wrote: »

All said and done it was a great year for Tipperary Hurling, so thanks to all involved, spectators, supporters, management and most of all the lads wearing the Blue and Gold on the field and on the bench.

One thing strikes me and I hope you see this as constructive comment.............Patrick Bonnar Maher runs into too many cul de sacs and is unable to get the ball away. I wonder has he ever practiced using the boot a guy with his strenght could kick goals from way out with a bit of practice.

Anyway well done to Bonnar for adding excitement to the season, his bravery and commitment are beyond question, he has been bottled up by KK backs so many times, I think we need to try his footballing skills too, and if we do I am sure he will score more goals.

Well done to Kilkenny you were the best on the day !

And there is another aspect of the game we are falling short in. Our forwards are too slow to get up and support their men. Kilkenny players swarmed a Tipp forward on several occasions and no one reacted quick enough to get up and support him.

evolving tipperary · 28-09-2014 10:14pm

Kelly is kelly - he was trying to settle the shi[ - jason forde also came on and got a point - did not tipp recue it and finish the stronger?

Denis Maher does not the pace for that type of game...the pace of that game was light years away from the League you highlight...The only way I can see Denis Maher playing 70 for tipp is as a stand up full forward - but he is a player which does not suit the O'Shea blue print.... be interesting to see where and if he gets a run at ful next year - i think O'Riordan will be given a run at wing forward

Gar hit an mount of ball in yesterday and it just kept coming back out...

For me a plan B would involve a different tactics of playing - a different formation - like when KK tart winning everything overhead - Gleeson had to go short...subs coming on earlier is hardly a plan b - but O'Shea has shown all year he is about giving players faith and confidence....early subs is not part of that I'd imagine...he has spent a long time rebuilding confidence

evolving tipperary · 28-09-2014 10:15pm

This is tough to read:

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/devastated-tipperary-team-already-thinking-of-2015-1.1944623?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

28-09-2014 10:46pm

evolving tipperary wrote: »

Kelly is kelly - he was trying to settle the shi[ - jason forde also came on and got a point - did not tipp recue it and finish the stronger?

Denis Maher does not the pace for that type of game...the pace of that game was light years away from the League you highlight...The only way I can see Denis Maher playing 70 for tipp is as a stand up full forward - but he is a player which does not suit the O'Shea blue print.... be interesting to see where and if he gets a run at ful next year - i think O'Riordan will be given a run at wing forward

Gar hit an mount of ball in yesterday and it just kept coming back out...

For me a plan B would involve a different tactics of playing - a different formation - like when KK tart winning everything overhead - Gleeson had to go short...subs coming on earlier is hardly a plan b - but O'Shea has shown all year he is about giving players faith and confidence....early subs is not part of that I'd imagine...he has spent a long time rebuilding confidence

Your being very harsh on Maher. Every game he played for us in the league against Cork, Clare and Kilkenny he done exceptionally well and was then dropped for the Limerick game. He is never going to prove himself without being given a chance and I dont agree that he lacks pace either. From what i see he is very willing to take on his man. Any cameo he made in the championship he made alot of turnovers and always has the paw up for the option of the puckout. thats the type of fearless player we need on the 40

We were getting annihilated in the early stages of the second half and O'Shea waited too long to react. All very noble having faith but the history books will read 'Tipperary, 2014 All Ireland runners up' whereas Brian Cody who grasped the nettle and made changes now celebrates number 10. I cant blame the management too much though, i think our forwards need to offer each other more support. One man at a time taking on three Kilkenny defenders is unacceptable.

As for tactics and formations, perhaps if Lar swapped with Bonnar to start with it could have been worth a try. Lar won the ball in the buildup to the goal out near the 40. Maybe we should have tried a third midfielder to curb Fennelly's influence or just leave Callanan inside on his own and have one extra man drop off for the puckout. The danger is you could fall into the trap of Dublin then who left Tyrell all on his own.

evolving tipperary · 28-09-2014 11:38pm

Not really - It's only the league....I don't think he played exceptionally well? How do we define exceptionally well? Five points from play, three over head catches, and dominance of a marker? up and down the field like a yo yo? He is very slow. It's a huge weakness he has and that's just it. It's plain to see...

He just does not fit the O'Shea blue print of movement and pace....be interesting to see what happens with him next year - can't see Seamie being freed from Full forward....he does play a two man full forward lin next year - maybe Denis can fit in there - but his work rate would need to improve....going on his Thurles efforts - I think your over selling him - O'Meara looked a better option - more dynamic - but issues of injury arose for whatever reason...

Cody was pilloried in the first game for making no changes - he was just about to take off larkin when he scored a point and the stopped the substitution - you're clamoring for reasons for Maher to come on - because you like him as a player - no problem with that - maybe your a thurles man - no problem with that either - but I just don't agree - don't see the evidence - League is not enough - he came on against Limerick and dropped some nice opportunities short or wide...- came on against Dublin was good - but I mean other players won that game...to make that team you'd need to be putting up some performance - as he is not a work horse he'd be competing with scoring forwards....I would say his best bet is for the full forward line...but i don't think o'shea likes that type of player for the full line....

The really scary thing is....KK will probably be better next year...looking at the different players coming through...

But, listen, I can't how management can be blamed for anything....we were short in the forwards the last day - kk responded to all the criticism - but that said there was huge improvement in our forwards this year from the previous years....

evolving tipperary · 29-09-2014 12:07am

The Sunday Game team of the year:
Darren Gleeson (Tipperary); Paul Murphy (Kilkenny), JJ Delaney (Kilkenny), Seamus Hickey (Limerick); Brendan Maher (Tipperary), Padraic Maher (Tipperary), Cillian Buckley (Kilkenny); Richie Hogan (Kilkenny), Conor Fogarty (Kilkenny); TJ Reid (Kilkenny), Patrick 'Bonnar' Maher (Tipperary), John O'Dwyer (Tipperary); Colin Fennelly (Kilkenny), Seamus Callinan (Tipperary), Shane Dowling (Limerick).

what do people think of that?

29-09-2014 12:49am

evolving tipperary wrote: »

Not really - It's only the league....I don't think he played exceptionally well? How do we define exceptionally well? Five points from play, three over head catches, and dominance of a marker? up and down the field like a yo yo? He is very slow. It's a huge weakness he has and that's just it. It's plain to see...

He just does not fit the O'Shea blue print of movement and pace....be interesting to see what happens with him next year - can't see Seamie being freed from Full forward....he does play a two man full forward lin next year - maybe Denis can fit in there - but his work rate would need to improve....going on his Thurles efforts - I think your over selling him - O'Meara looked a better option - more dynamic - but issues of injury arose for whatever reason...

Cody was pilloried in the first game for making no changes - he was just about to take off larkin when he scored a point and the stopped the substitution - you're clamoring for reasons for Maher to come on - because you like him as a player - no problem with that - maybe your a thurles man - no problem with that either - but I just don't agree - don't see the evidence - League is not enough - he came on against Limerick and dropped some nice opportunities short or wide...- came on against Dublin was good - but I mean other players won that game...to make that team you'd need to be putting up some performance - as he is not a work horse he'd be competing with scoring forwards....I would say his best bet is for the full forward line...but i don't think o'shea likes that type of player for the full line....

The really scary thing is....KK will probably be better next year...looking at the different players coming through...

But, listen, I can't how management can be blamed for anything....we were short in the forwards the last day - kk responded to all the criticism - but that said there was huge improvement in our forwards this year from the previous years....

Fair enough we'll have to agree to disagree. Im not a Thurles man im actually from South Tipp. You say Maher hasnt the pace and movement for O'shea's blueprint but then why bring on Eoin Kelly the last day? Ive great time for the man he is one of the greatest forwards, if not the greatest that we have ever had but his time is long gone tbh. No problem with him on the panel as such as the potential was there for him to get one last medal. It would have been fantastic but sadly two will have to do.

We'll have to agree to diasgree on the management issue too. Just cant help feeling Eamon waited too long to make a change yesterday and maybe should have looked to bring Lar into the game a bit more. Callanan actually done well on scraps too.

Overall though, many positives to be taken and i back the management 100% to get us over the line next year. We're just going to have to wait an extra 344 days until number 27 arrives

29-09-2014 12:53am

evolving tipperary wrote: »

The Sunday Game team of the year:
Darren Gleeson (Tipperary); Paul Murphy (Kilkenny), JJ Delaney (Kilkenny), Seamus Hickey (Limerick); Brendan Maher (Tipperary), Padraic Maher (Tipperary), Cillian Buckley (Kilkenny); Richie Hogan (Kilkenny), Conor Fogarty (Kilkenny); TJ Reid (Kilkenny), Patrick 'Bonnar' Maher (Tipperary), John O'Dwyer (Tipperary); Colin Fennelly (Kilkenny), Seamus Callinan (Tipperary), Shane Dowling (Limerick).

what do people think of that?

That right full back slot was a real conundrum between Paul Murphy and Cathal Barrett and to be fair the goalkeeper issue wasn't cut and thrust either. Both Murphy and Gleeson made great cases. Gleeson probably shaded it for the fact he was constant on the team whereas Murphy was dislodged by Herity at one stage. No real issue with that team though to be honest. There will be lads on the fringes that people will make a case for but you cant pick them all unfortunately.

evolving tipperary · 29-09-2014 10:07am

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/stapleton-tipp-will-kick-on-289048.html

Stapleton's take on events

evolving tipperary · 29-09-2014 1:05pm

A bit of light relief:

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2014/09/29/brian-cody-accused-of-grooming-children-as-young-as-5-for-hurling/

evolving tipperary · 29-09-2014 5:46pm

I think if O'Shea can improve as much as he from year 1 to year 2 in year 3 - he will be a massive manager...

Another factor - I suppose - as I know myself working in the same university - Once September hits O'Shea would have been very very very busy - no matter how people covered for him...

Whereas Cody is a retired principal...now that's an advantage...

tippspur · 29-09-2014 11:38pm

evolving tipperary wrote: »

The Sunday Game team of the year:
Darren Gleeson (Tipperary); Paul Murphy (Kilkenny), JJ Delaney (Kilkenny), Seamus Hickey (Limerick); Brendan Maher (Tipperary), Padraic Maher (Tipperary), Cillian Buckley (Kilkenny); Richie Hogan (Kilkenny), Conor Fogarty (Kilkenny); TJ Reid (Kilkenny), Patrick 'Bonnar' Maher (Tipperary), John O'Dwyer (Tipperary); Colin Fennelly (Kilkenny), Seamus Callinan (Tipperary), Shane Dowling (Limerick).

what do people think of that?

l Would agree with Gleeson before Murphy,Shane Mc Grath should be in before Fogarty,as good as Barret was for us Paul Murphy is a brilliant corner back.

30-09-2014 12:34am

evolving tipperary wrote: »

I think if O'Shea can improve as much as he from year 1 to year 2 in year 3 - he will be a massive manager...

Another factor - I suppose - as I know myself working in the same university - Once September hits O'Shea would have been very very very busy - no matter how people covered for him...

Whereas Cody is a retired principal...now that's an advantage...

I wouldn't doubt that tbh. Eamon lives and works in Galway which is a fair aul trek to Thurles. Even when Cody was teaching he was teaching in Kilkenny where he is originally from and lives today. I think they use a few floodlit pitches around the county during the winter and one of them would be Ballyragget (20 mins out the n77 to Portlaoise). During the long evenings then all match prep training is done in Nowlan.

Kilkenny in general is ideally situated. Nice and compact with the city right near the centre of the county. Now that's certainly not the only reason they won on Saturday but these are cornerstones which are set nicely for them in terms of building success on success.

The structure in Kilkenny is ideal too. You have a Unitarian structure with the county board overseeing all of the 36 clubs.

Given the longitudinal nature of our county we have a federal structure which can prove highly problematic with certain issues arising here and there. You have the central county board who have devolved powers to 4 separate divisions and in terms of implementing reform to competitions and development there is alot of time, lobbying, and hassle involved.

With a federal structure, people tend to think that its a simple case of divide and conquer but unfortunately its probably done us more harm then good. When you give devolve too much power and influence from the central council, then its very hard to plan and change any inefficiencies within. Take the club championship. The Tipp Co board wanted to trim it by 8, but the clubs who with united under the respective divisional banners only compromised on four in the end over 4 years. Truth be told we should only have 16 at the top elite level and even then you might only have a small number of teams realistically out of those 16 that can stake a claim for Dan Breen.

Kilkenny to be fair is a predominantly rural county but we are also a predominantly rural county which is longer from northern most part to southern most part with bad roads and long distances to travel for some players and management. You cant change Geography or infrastructure.

Now i'm not giving any excuses by any means but thinking about it, we do face many challenges as a county year on year. Employment is scarce when you compare it to our larger urban cities like Cork, Dublin, Galway and Limerick so its understandably difficult to keep lads within the county.

evolving tipperary · 30-09-2014 10:24am

Over stepped the mark there - just shows you the mindset

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/hurling/gaa-may-ask-cody-to-explain-scathing-attack-on-ref-kelly-289266.html

evolving tipperary · 30-09-2014 10:27am

I feared this - i don't know how he does it tbh -

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/tipperary-fret-over-possible-o-shea-exit-1.1945827

farmerval · 30-09-2014 12:12pm

If EOS were to step down, who would replace him?

He did well this year after a very shakey start. In the early league games we looked totally clueless, our defending in the Clare game was juvenile almost, so top turn that around was a great achievement.
Whether EOS's philosophy will be enough to get an all-Ireland I am not sure. For a team relying on speed and movement in our forward line we needed half backs and a midfield who could paly in quick early ball, yet our half backs and midfield carried the ball a lot. Actually I think the scoring exploits from midfield may have masked other deficiencies there.

mollymaloney · 30-09-2014 12:29pm

If we had John Meagher from Loughmore at centre back, Ml Breen from Ballina at full back and Colin O Riordan from Templemore at midfield, I think we would have serious additions to our team. I also like the style and skill of Ronan Maher. It's only since his retirement that I can see the loss that Declan Fanning is. We need backs that can attack the ball with confidence. There are very few Kilkenny forwards who will not make use of the ball once they have it in their hand,-- either a score, a free or a pass.

evolving tipperary · 30-09-2014 12:30pm

Well - he has to play the cards he's dealt....and so will any other manager...

Whether we have the players coming through or not - I don't know...

Is Padraic Maher a center back? Are we robbing Peter to pay Paul by putting Barry in Full-back - he could well develop into a top full back with experience. He did a good job there. Will John Meagher get over his injury issues - can he do a job center back or full back?
Should Brendan Maher be asked to play wing forward? Can O'Riordan make the step up?

It's very hard to be hard on the team - they were so close - but it's a very tough pill to swallow. And now O'Shea might leave...
If he does - what will happen to Seamie's form? Or has he turned the corner regardless...

One thing is for sure - is that KK will be better - they have fantastic players coming through...in all positions

30-09-2014 2:10pm

I have to say i couldnt think of anyone that could come in and manage us for 2015 if O'Shea was to leave. EOS has his flaws but he is certainly undoubtedly the very best we have in terms of getting the most out of players. Nicky English maybe or Liam Sheedy would be the stand out candidates but would they even want it?

Perhaps its time to consider Michael Ryan for the hotseat if he was interested alongside Paudie O'Neill to keep the continuity. Of course, EOS may not step down yet but to be honest im sort of bracing myself for it.

varberg · 30-09-2014 4:16pm

Id like to see o shea continue but if he doesnt donal og cusack would be the best choice for the job either as manager or trainer. If o shea is going then go soon and give the new managment a chance rather than waste the next month finding a replacement. preparations for next year would have to start right away. No point diddering away and deciding in november he wont do it. Make up his mind now and think of next year.

Declan fanning, michael cleary and eddie enright too would be good men to have involved. Someone living locally who would take it for longer than 2 years if asked would be ideal. At this stage id hardly ask sheedy or english they are happy to knock in their media jaunts and seem comfortable as commentators without putting themselves in the front line where a lot of hard work and long hours getting things right would be needed. Appointing managers living outside the county means long travel and short stints as a manager.

robbiezero · 30-09-2014 4:21pm

varberg wrote: »

Id like to see o shea continue but if he doesnt donal og cusack would be the best choice for the job either as manager or trainer. If o shea is going then go soon and give the new managment a chance rather than waste the next month finding a replacement. preparations for next year would have to start right away. No point diddering away and deciding in november he wont do it. Make up his mind now and think of next year.

Declan fanning, michael cleary and eddie enright too would be good men to have involved. Someone living locally who would take it for longer than 2 years if asked would be ideal. At this stage id hardly ask sheedy or english they are happy to knock in their media jaunts and seem comfortable as commentators without putting themselves in the front line where a lot of hard work and long hours getting things right would be needed. Appointing managers living outside the county means long travel and short stints as a manager.

Has Cusack any form or experience of management?

varberg · 30-09-2014 4:23pm

Watched the game again and found it hard to believe no media picked up of the foul by power on bergin before the kilkenny goal as the ball was in the air and dropping. I thought it was a definate free out and it would take the butt of the hurley or an elbow from power to make bergin go down.

Surprised it wasnt picked up by the tv and a point made of it. It was clearly a free out if the rule book was applied.

buggy beag · 30-09-2014 4:33pm

Have any of the so called big 3 ever had And outside manager ?

30-09-2014 5:38pm

buggy beag wrote: »

Have any of the so called big 3 ever had And outside manager ?

Never, and i doubt ever will. The reason for this is typically given as "oh sure only a Tipperary/Kilkenny/Cork man would have true passion for the job" but for me thats not the real reason and also if it was its a load of bs in my opinion. Id say that they are really afraid as they think it shows a sign of weakness within their county and will be used as a stick to beat them with forever more. Quite frankly i think this another load of nonsense.

Actually reading Donal Og's book at present and the one thing i cant fault him about is his desire for perfect meticolous preparation and he is pretty open miinded and visionary in terms of advances in training methods and preparation.

That all said he does perhaps lack experience a little while to be fair he has no shortage of wisdom and insight. I do also think we have a few young enthusiastic men in our own county who could bring alot to a management setup. Willie Maher, Declan Fanning, Noel Morris, TJ Connolly, Brian Horgan and Brendan Cummins are a few names we should be sounding out for the future.

If O'Shea goes id give consideration with regards to keeping Paudie O'Neill and Michael Ryan on at the very least. A total exodus like four years ago would be disaster and we would be going into the unknown yet again just as fruit was appearing on the tree.

dirkmeister · 30-09-2014 5:50pm

evolving tipperary wrote: »

I think if O'Shea can improve as much as he from year 1 to year 2 in year 3 - he will be a massive manager...

Another factor - I suppose - as I know myself working in the same university - Once September hits O'Shea would have been very very very busy - no matter how people covered for him...

Whereas Cody is a retired principal...now that's an advantage...

Cody's not retired. He is still working away.

evolving tipperary · 30-09-2014 6:13pm

Principle of a primary school - he might as well be retired in terms of job demands in comparison to O'Shea - who has a very demanding job - hence why O'Shea said there's more to life to winning. O'Shea is doing very important and hard research.

He has had over 70 papers published in peer-reviewed journals, including publications in top-ranked journals such as: the Journal of Health Economics, Social Science and Medicine, Cambridge Journal of Economics, Age and Ageing, Ageing and Society, Health Policy, International Journal of Health Technology Assessment, European Journal of Health Economics, International Journal of Geriatric Psychiatry and the Journal of Mental Health Policy and Economics. He has authored/co-authored 15 books and monographs, mainly in the field of ageing and social policy. He has been responsible for numerous reports commissioned by national and international agencies, including: the National Council on Ageing and Older People, The Department of Health and Children, the Health Research Board, the European Commission and the European Council. Professor O’Shea has also contributed 25 plus chapters to various books, mainly on ageing and inequality issues. His work has been influential in setting the agenda for the ongoing reform of the long-stay sector in Ireland, particularly in relation to funding, priority-setting and dementia. His current research is focused on: the economics of dementia, health care evaluation and rural ageing.

evolving tipperary · 30-09-2014 6:19pm

And there you have it - one side of our forward line completely dominated - no scores from that side of the field -

http://www.gaa.ie/gaa-news-and-videos/daily-news/1/3009141145-kilkenny-v-tipperary-a-statistical-breakdown/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

tippspur · 30-09-2014 10:26pm

varberg wrote: »

Watched the game again and found it hard to believe no media picked up of the foul by power on bergin before the kilkenny goal as the ball was in the air and dropping. I thought it was a definate free out and it would take the butt of the hurley or an elbow from power to make bergin go down.

Surprised it wasnt picked up by the tv and a point made of it. It was clearly a free out if the rule book was applied.

Yep,Power nearly took the head off Bergin.

evolving tipperary · 30-09-2014 11:42pm

Sheedy left Tipp after the big win - showed a lack of ambition - was not hard nosed enough to make it work - not hungry enough....now he chose life and his family - fair enough - some guys are more ruthless - but the fact of the matter is - he didn't lead them on - and it set that group of players back ....

Maybe, that streak within Sheedy meant he never achieved as a player with the county - had only one solid run with the county and yes made all ireland final - but lost....

The high standards of high achievement in sport are ruthless - ruthless. That's not in Sheedy or English.

It's in Cody. That said I wouldn't go for a pint with Cody. Boring and stubborn. I'd go for a pint with Sheehy or English though!!!!

01-10-2014 12:42am

evolving tipperary wrote: »

Sheedy left Tipp after the big win - showed a lack of ambition - was not hard nosed enough to make it work - not hungry enough....now he chose life and his family - fair enough - some guys are more ruthless - but the fact of the matter is - he didn't lead them on - and it set that group of players back ....

Maybe, that streak within Sheedy meant he never achieved as a player with the county - had only one solid run with the county and yes made all ireland final - but lost....

Hold on now thats an outrageous remark.

Dont forget that the man that you are defending, Eamon O'Shea, who was part of the same setup had also walked that same year after winning the All Ireland.

Sheedy, like Eamon, Michael Ryan or Nicky English had no shortage of ambition and done absolute wonders with Tipp. In fact ive never seen a man as energised and commited on the line as Sheedy. He'd wake the dead.

The man has a demanding role with his employers and left to fulfil an even more demanding role from what i gather and best of luck to him in whatever he does. I will always be grateful for what he did for Tipperary hurling. He is a legend. He thought that he was leaving Tipperary in good hands but as it transpired, it wasnt to be the case. Dont forget also that Liam Sheedy was involved in managing various Tipperary panels in 3 different grades between 2002 and 2010.

Intermediate manager in 2002
Senior selector in 2003
Minor manager from 2004-2006
Senior manager from 2008-2010

Also he played masters for Tipperary in 2003 in between these spells and has since coached the Munster railway cup team and took a few training sessions with us this year.

Your argument is a total contradiction. So Eamon O'Shea is a busy man but Liam Sheedy just didnt have the ambition?

evolving tipperary · 01-10-2014 12:51am

I stand by argument - I said judging him by the most ruthless standards - of hungry for medals - winning at all costs. Judging Sheedy by those standards he is not ruthless - he left. He is not Davy Fitz - he is not Brian Cody - I also hinted he shouldn't want to be.

I'm talking about obsession here. Ruthless obsession where nothing but winning matters. That's not in Sheedy. It's just not.

Look at people like Shankly - "Some people believe football is a matter of life and death, I am very
disappointed with that attitude. I can assure you it is much, much more
important than that."

""Of course I didn't take my wife to see Rochdale as an anniversary present.
It was her birthday. Would I have got married in the football season? Anyway,
it was Rochdale reserves."

And, no, Sheedy's job in a bank is not the same level of running a center and researching all over the world. O'Shea went to America the following year - researching - he probably would have stayed if Sheedy had.

I'm not slighting Sheedy - I'm just calling it as I see it. Sport should not be everything, for some people it is. for, Sheedy and O'Shea, it's not. For other managers... it is...

Passion is another thing...different from ruthlessness...

evolving tipperary · 01-10-2014 12:52am

Ruthless - is all about winning - there is no beauty in the game - there is no life outside it. Ruthless is obsession - where nothing but winning matters...

01-10-2014 1:13am

evolving tipperary wrote: »

I stand by argument - I said judging him by the most ruthless standards - of hungry for medals - winning at all costs. Judging Sheedy by those standards he is not ruthless - he left. He is not Davy Fitz - he is not Brian Cody - I also hinted he shouldn't want to be.

I'm talking about obsession here. Ruthless obsession where nothing but winning matters. That's not in Sheedy. It's just not.

Look at people like Shankly - "Some people believe football is a matter of life and death, I am very
disappointed with that attitude. I can assure you it is much, much more
important than that."

""Of course I didn't take my wife to see Rochdale as an anniversary present.
It was her birthday. Would I have got married in the football season? Anyway,
it was Rochdale reserves."

And, no, Sheedy's job in a bank is not the same level of running a center and researching all over the world. O'Shea went to America the following year - researching - he probably would have stayed if Sheedy had.

I'm not slighting Sheedy - I'm just calling it as I see it. Sport should not be everything, for some people it is. for, Sheedy and O'Shea, it's not. For other managers... it is...

Passion is another thing...different from ruthlessness...

Utter horseshít.

Firstly the Shankly comparison is a very flawed argument considering that he was involved in a professional sport and Sheedy involved in an amateur sport. And the way you mention Davy Fitz one would think he has a dozen all irelands won. This 'winner' suffered two unbelievably heavy defeats with Waterford in both a Munster and All Ireland final and while he thinks his own players should put Clare hurling 100% before anything else, he is off galavanting on Ireland's fittest family on RTE so its perfectly ok for him to have his hands in as many pies as he likes while the players apparently should live and breed Clare hurling. He is taking the credit for alot of hard work that underage coaches in Clare have undertaken in bringing this team to where they are.

Sheedy's job involved alot of travelling on behalf of the bank as he was a representative of a whole region. Not everyone does academic research for a living but that doesnt mean that their jobs are any less demanding.

As for Sheedy not being ruthless enough, ask Cian O'Neill and he will recall the grilling he received upon being interviewed for the role of fitness trainer with Tipperary prior to 2008.
O'Neill is akin to O'Shea in that he is heavily respected in his field of expertise but Liam Sheedy wanted to ensure that O'Neill was aware that he was to enter a culture where nothing but winning All Ireland titles was good enough.

evolving tipperary · 01-10-2014 1:18am

Then why does he only have one....

Regardless of professionalism or amateurism - ruthlessness is an attitude - something inherent. Cody displays those levels. Regardless of Davy's tv career...the man drives himself to the limit...he has had heart surgery - a failed marriage...he is married to hurling - obsessed with sport - i never mentioned success in relation to Davy - Davy is a very young manager so don't write him off for lots of success yet. He had a lot of success not just with Clare but with sixmilebridge, and LIT - clubs which had won nothing before he came on the scene. I'm not saying he's Cody nor is he as obsessed as Cody...maybe...he's also not unfortunate to live in KK...

Regardless, Cody didn't walk away...Fitzgerald does not walk away...they strive and strive - manically for success. OBSESSION....your changing the terms of argument from my point....

01-10-2014 1:34am

evolving tipperary wrote: »

Then why does he only have one....

Regardless of professionalism or amateurism - ruthlessness is an attitude - something inherent. Cody displays those levels. Regardless of Davy's tv career...the man drives himself to the limit...he has had heart surgery - a failed marriage...he is married to hurling - obsessed with sport - i never mentioned success in relation to Davy - Davy is a very young manager so don't write him off for lots of success yet. He had a lot of success not just with Clare but with sixmilebridge, and LIT - clubs which had won nothing before he came on the scene. I'm not saying he's Cody nor is he as obsessed as Cody...maybe...he's also not unfortunate to live in KK...

Regardless, Cody didn't walk away...Fitzgerald does not walk away...they strive and strive - manically for success. OBSESSION....your changing the terms of argument from my point....

Cody's circumstances help him to continue his role as Kilkenny manager. Lives in Kilkenny, works in Kilkenny. No slight on him but id say the travelling involved with managing Kilkenny and teaching local is pretty minimum id imagine.

Liam Sheedy is a travelling rep for bank of ireland from what i understand. Now im not going to get into whether its more demanding then Eamon O'sheas role in NUIG or not, but both jobs have huge demands id imagine so its probably unfair of you to give right of pass to one and yet state that the other is not ambitious enough. These are amateur men. The job must come first regardless of their level of ambition. Ideally if i was good enough to manage Tipperary id only love to win loads upon loads upon loads with them but ultimately id pick a job and food on the table if it came down to it without hesitation. Luckily for Brian Cody, he doesnt have to make that decision. Eamon AND Liam do. i cant fathom how you think Eamon is hard done by with his circumstances in terms of blocking his sporting ambitions but you seem to somehow think Sheedy had a range of options available to him?

evolving tipperary · 01-10-2014 1:40am

You do realize that a large quantity of obsessed GAA men pick their jobs according to their suitability to gaa success...

Tony Browne didn't have a job for a number of years - that's an extreme example...but...it does happen. Sheedy and O'Shea don't have their careers blocked...they have ambitions outside of sport...

They are not men who have a tunnel vision of sport that is obsession - that is life or death - that is their life - they have passion for life I'd imagine...that includes outside of sport

You seem to think I'm insulting them...I'm not...quite on the contrary...

01-10-2014 1:43am

evolving tipperary wrote: »

Then why does he only have one....

Regardless of professionalism or amateurism - ruthlessness is an attitude - something inherent. Cody displays those levels. Regardless of Davy's tv career...the man drives himself to the limit...he has had heart surgery - a failed marriage...he is married to hurling - obsessed with sport - i never mentioned success in relation to Davy - Davy is a very young manager so don't write him off for lots of success yet. He had a lot of success not just with Clare but with sixmilebridge, and LIT - clubs which had won nothing before he came on the scene. I'm not saying he's Cody nor is he as obsessed as Cody...maybe...he's also not unfortunate to live in KK...

Regardless, Cody didn't walk away...Fitzgerald does not walk away...they strive and strive - manically for success. OBSESSION....your changing the terms of argument from my point....

Course they dont. Their roles allow them to be able to stay on and do what they love in their spare time

01-10-2014 1:48am

evolving tipperary wrote: »

You do realize that a large quantity of obsessed GAA men pick their jobs according to their suitability to gaa success...

Tony Browne didn't have a job for a number of years - that's an extreme example...but...it does happen. Sheedy and O'Shea don't have their careers blocked...they have ambitions outside of sport...

They are not men who have a tunnel vision of sport that is obsession - that is life or death - that is their life - they have passion for life I'd imagine...that includes outside of sport

You seem to think I'm insulting them...I'm not...quite on the contrary...

And a large quantity of them dont id imagine. Its just happenstance if they do fall into management and sometimes you fall into careers by accident too. There is a GAA/Business coach up in IT Carlow for example and id imagine some could go on to be brilliant coaches while some may never have been cut out for it in the first place.

It would be very strange indeed if every GAA intercounty manager was a primary school teacher. A good lot are to be fair but there is a wide range of careers id imagine in the GAA. If a man has a talent for two things then it doesnt mean he lacks the ambition for GAA management if he happens to want to be a long haul Airline pilot. It might make it tougher but he might be no different in terms of ambition then Brian Cody. Circumstance just may not allow him to fulfill those ambitions

ReacherCreature · 01-10-2014 9:45am

Hello, folks.

Ah here, evolving_tipperary, not sure if I'm getting your point through the last couple of pages but I think you're giving Sheedy a hard time if you're saying he has a lack of obsession or passion or ruthlessness. Just because Sheedy isn't sending his heart rate into oblivion on the sidelines or whatever doesn't mean he has a lack of obsession or passion. People can be quiet and still be obsessive. Look at Henry Shefflin, as tipp_Gunner will allude to, in Donal Og's book, Shefflin is cool, calm, polite and will shake your hand, but he'd gut you (hurling-wise, naturally) in an instant.

I'd be sad to see O' Shea going because his managerial record is on an upward curve. We were inches from an All-Ireland. My worry is if we got someone new in would it wobble what is a steady ship? ANY new manager will look to come in and put his own stamp on the team.

While on that topic, I think this refusal to hire from outside the county is rubbish. I'm all for "foreign" managers to come in and manage. Daly in Dublin, Allen in Limerick, why not? Looking within, you're restricting your talent pool significantly.

I won't lie, I was pretty despondent leaving Croke Park on Saturday and being in a Kilkenny dominated section (bought tickets off a Kilkenny guy) made it all the more worse as well as the displeasure of sitting near some thoroughly arrogant Kilkenny supporters (one turned around and smiled broadly at me when they got their two goals. Classy). But, in my eyes, it was a largely successful season. We went from a potential relegation to All-Ireland finalists.

While we still had problems conceding, the attack flourished and our midfield got together well. Callanan has fulfilled the promise that he was on the brink of for years. Brendan Maher was a rock solid presence in defines, James Woodlock continues to make me look a fool for me calling for him to be dropped. Shane McGrath was excellent after a seriously rocky year last season (see what I did there?). Bonner got his form of a couple of years ago back and was dominant and discovered he can score a couple of goals here and there. Bubbles is a magnificent hurler. Cathal Barret was terrific and a definite Young Hurler of the Year. Paudie was excellent and James Barry also really good. I am no doubt missing other positives.

Gleeson got better as the year went on and despite some good puck outs and saves I think we have to wait a couple of years to see what he really has. Pity Michael Cahill was out so much and I'm not sure if Noel McGrath has done enough? He is inconsistent but there were flashes of brilliance. Lar also had his flashes and ran rampant when he could but faded in and out of games. Our bench isn't that strong. I think we've seen the last of Eoin Kelly, John O' Brien (potentially) and Paul Curran? Their positions look locked up by others?

I think it was a good year, albeit not as spectacular as it could have been. From witnessing the horror shows in the League to the magnificent comebacks versus Galway and Kilkenny and the utter demolition of Cork, it was a really, really exciting season.

As a small aside in something I'm interested in, I was reading in the programme before the match, Brendan Cummins is playing centre forward for his club and has been reported as very good. How is this possible?! The man spent his entire career (county) in nets and goes to club and dominates on the forward line. Can anyone shed any light on his performances?

The Tipperary GAA (Club and intercounty) Discussion thread 2014

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