RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

zg3409 · 20-02-2012 2:53pm

Apogee wrote: »

Dish up: Inverted spectrum:

Having looked at Apogee's spectrum photo, I did wonder why his spectrum did not really match my spectrum (4 fat 1 skinny, all about the same). This morning I twigged the cause. What we/I have been looking at is not the purple beam, but the purple AND GREEN spots together. I am seeing the green spot around the same strength as the purple, while Apogee is not getting the green spot as strong.

As the LNB only has two options (LHCP/RHCP) it outputs two spots at the same time. So the left hand side of my spectrum is the Purple spot, while the right is the green spot.

I rotated and flipped Apogee's spectrum to show it the same way around mine appears.

You learn something new every day!

So based on this I wanted to see where the purple beam ends and the green starts, so I updated the table on spot frequencies.

Beam #|Beam color| Symbol rate | Center frequency | Polarization |Band range approx |Intermediate Range approx |I.F. Center|Universal LNB Range |Universal LNB Center

1| Blue| 50| 19.73125| RHCP/Horizontal | 19.7 - 19.7625| 1.4375 - 1.5|1.46875 | 11.1875 - 11.25 |11.21875

2| Orange| 50| 19.99375| RHCP/Horizontal | 19.9625 - 20.025 | 1.175 - 1.2375 | 1.20625 | 10.925 - 10.9875| 10.95625

4| Green| 50| 19.85625| LHCP/Vertical | 19.775 - 19.9375| 1.3125 - 1.375| 1.34375 |11.0125 - 11.175| 11.09375

3| Purple| 50| 20.11875| LHCP/Vertical | 20.0875 - 20.15 | 1.05 - 1.1125| 1.08125 | 10.08 - 10.8625| 10.83125

The above sums seem to not make sense. I don't think the "center" frequency of the purple beam is 20.11875, at least according to the spectrum I have photographed. It may be that the Irish purple spot is different to allow an extra TV carrier at 20.185GHz

SO IF YOU ARE USING A SPECTRUM ANALYSER TO ALIGN YOUR DISH DO NOT WORRY IF SOME OF THE TRANSPONDERS SEEM WEAK OR NON EXISTANT. These are just the green spots, which don't carry TV anyway. Depending on the make of analyser these may be top/bottom/left/right.

The Cush · 20-02-2012 5:42pm

The Saorsat page on the Saorview website has been updated, doesn't look good for TV3/3e.

Saorsat

By October 2012 SAORVIEW will be accessible to 98% of the Irish population. Due to topography it is not possible for the SAORVIEW service to reach 100% of population and approximately 2% of the population will not be able to receive the SAORVIEW service.

The SAORSAT service is currently operating on technical trial basis and will formally commence once a number of finer points around the service have been finalised. The SAORSAT service is an infill solution for the 2% of households, which by virtue of their location, cannot receive the SAORVIEW signal.

The SAORSAT service will carry all of the RTÉ Television and Radio channels, making the RTÉ public service television and radio services available in some parts of the country, on a free-to-air basis, for the first time ever. Other channels may become available if they choose to be carried on the service, subject to appropriate carriage agreements being in place. However, it is unlikely that the SAORSAT service will carry as many channels as SAORVIEW and for that reason, wherever possible SAORVIEW should be the preferred option. SAORVIEW advises speaking to a competent local aerial installer about your all your options for getting SAORVIEW before choosing SAORSAT.

http://www.saorview.ie/what-is-saorview/saorsat/

watty · 20-02-2012 6:20pm

Lack of Regulation of TV3.

They were never made to pay for "full" Analogue Coverage and thus had only 80% coverage.
Now they have 97%, so why without being forced by regulator would they pay ANYTHING for 2% more coverage and maybe only 0.5% customers. Being on Saorsat won't bring them more advertising revenue.

The problem is not RTENL who can't give ANYONE, TV3 or Oireachtas a Free Ride on Satellite or Terrestrial, but our regulators who NEVER forced Banks, Eircom or TV3 to meet their obligations to the Public in the past.

I don't need to update saortv.info ...

Skanco · 20-02-2012 10:44pm

I believe saorsat cannot be received even on a 1.8m dish on the Isle of Man, can anyone prove this report right. PM may be best. Thanks for any help.;)

Deep diver · 20-02-2012 10:50pm

http://www.isaa.tv/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1329774052

Just seen this on the ISAA forum.

moro_original · 20-02-2012 11:39pm

Hooray,

Finally a box that can receive ALL of the Saorview channels ples ALL of the Saorsat channels! That's like, 9 channels... plus 5 of those channels AGAIN!

watty · 21-02-2012 12:10am

Indeed. Why would anyone that can't get Saorview want a combi?
Why would anyone that can get Saorview want other than Freesat on the Combi?

I wonder have they mixed up two product announcements:
1) A Combi for Saorview
2) A DVB-T2 HD Sat box that has MHEG5 and Ku and Ka LNBF settings to enter frequency sensibly?

moro_original · 21-02-2012 1:14am

In fairness it might actually be a nice set top box, just a bit of a weird product announcement. A Freesat box with a DVB-T2 tuner / MHEG5 would be excellent, but probably unlikely.

STB · 21-02-2012 1:43am

watty wrote: »

Indeed. Why would anyone that can't get Saorview want a combi?
Why would anyone that can get Saorview want other than Freesat on the Combi?

I wonder have they mixed up two product announcements:
1) A Combi for Saorview
2) A DVB-T2 HD Sat box that has MHEG5 and Ku and Ka LNBF settings to enter frequency sensibly?

Its a one box approved solution for combined British and Irish Channels regardless of how you are getting your Irish signal, ie terrestrially or via sat.

The last Triax's MHEG capabilities where well there and the 7 day epg could easily been loaded with a firmware tweak...... (despite its other shortcomings). There certainly was an attempt to join the dots via mheg.

The new box looks VERY like the old one, despite its name change.......will reserve judgement.

Noreen1 · 21-02-2012 2:32am

which will enable consumers decode the SAORVIEW and SAORSAT services as well as other free to air satellite services

Hmm. It would be nice to see a spec. for this STB. It looks promising, but I will also reserve judgement for now.

aerialworld · 23-02-2012 10:39pm

I know that some people may see this as spam. But its to help people in Belfast

But we are now selling the Ka Sat LNB.

Thanks,

AerialWorld
Belfast
02890 246108

The Cush · 23-02-2012 11:55pm

aerialworld wrote: »

I know that some people may see this as spam. But its to help people in Belfast

But we are now selling the Ka Sat LNB.

What price?

aerialworld · 23-02-2012 11:57pm

£35.

Peddyr · 24-02-2012 2:08am

aerialworld wrote: »

I know that some people may see this as spam. But its to help people in Belfast

But we are now selling the Ka Sat LNB.

Thanks,

AerialWorld
Belfast
02890 246108

Website please?

Skanco · 24-02-2012 3:46pm

Warning. It is now confirmed that saorsat can not be received even on a 1.8M Dish on the Isle of Man that includes test carried out in the North, East, South, and West of the Island. This has involved a lot of testing by engineers.
So don’t waste money on equipment and LNBs.

Apogee · 24-02-2012 4:14pm

Skanco wrote: »

Warning. It is now confirmed that saorsat can not be received even on a 1.8M Dish on the Isle of Man that includes test carried out in the North, East, South, and West of the Island. This has involved a lot of testing by engineers.
So don’t waste money on equipment and LNBs.

Considering that moro_original reported reception in Belfast with an 80cm, that's an interesting finding to say the least.

Do you know what equipment they were using - dish type, receiver, meter etc? Did they get any signal at all, or else a "blank" signal with no lock?

Skanco · 24-02-2012 9:16pm

The Large dishes used were a Andrews 1.8M and a Andrews 2M with C120 professional grade Norsat LNB. The smaller dish used a domestic, Eutelsat White Ka-sat LNB. Spectrum Analyzers used:
Promax TV Explorer II+, and A Rohde & Schwarz, sorry don't know the model.

alamut · 24-02-2012 10:38pm

saor can be great but what about people like me who needs an irish sky subscription being in Italy?
Could u please suggest me a trustful and cheap link to get one?
plenty of thanks

watty · 25-02-2012 12:28am

You are likely to lose Irish & BBC channel reception in Italy unless very near north East Border. See 1N British Spot beam

alamut · 25-02-2012 1:16am

watty wrote: »

You are likely to lose Irish & BBC channel reception in Italy unless very near north East Border. See 1N British Spot beam

ah ok but until now I have big dish, the problem is to have the right link to get a sub card

watty · 25-02-2012 12:32pm

You need an Irish Address. Anything else is Fraud or Theft as Sky/NDS owns the cards. Also various channels are changing beam/satellite and will again next year and the year after.

This is nothing to do with Saorsat.

alamut · 25-02-2012 12:48pm

watty wrote: »

You need an Irish Address. Anything else is Fraud or Theft as Sky/NDS owns the cards. Also various channels are changing beam/satellite and will again next year and the year after.

This is nothing to do with Saorsat.

yep but is not changing law after that person who intended a cause against them because in her pub she showed english football in greek subscription?

STB · 25-02-2012 1:46pm

alamut wrote: »

yep but is not changing law after that person who intended a cause against them because in her pub she showed english football in greek subscription?

Public performance and use of cards is a seperate issue.

If they find out they will just cancel the card. To answer your question you need an Irish address and need to paying Sky.

Capt'n Midnight · 25-02-2012 2:27pm

http://www.lyngsat.com/eka.html freqs.

No idea what signal level this is - but note that the locus of points equidistant between two points is a straight line - so if the same power level between two transponders is the same then you can just fet a first approximation with a ruler

zg3409 · 25-02-2012 2:35pm

Mister midnight, thanks for posting MY map, even if you did help

The above map is not finished yet. I hope to have a better map shortly. It shows on tooways finder where the purple beam is recommended over any other colour. It is not a coverage map. Others and I are working on a better map shortly. It should be fairly certain of Saorsat inside the dots, but we have already confirmed coverage outside the dots.

The lines to the north east and east are where other colours start to be recommended NOT where the east scottish beam starts etc.

This gives the same info as clicking on the tooway finder map, but all at once.

BArmagh · 25-02-2012 2:35pm

Saorsat installed and working on 80cm dish with Inverto KA LNBf in South Armagh just across the border. Signal level 85% and Quality 80% on an Ariva 120 Combi receiver. KU Lnb used to align dish to 9 East and Spectrum then used to fine tune the KA LNB alignment.

watty · 25-02-2012 3:07pm

BArmagh wrote: »

Saorsat installed and working on 80cm dish with Inverto KA LNBf in South Armagh just across the border. Signal level 85% and Quality 80% on an Ariva 120 Combi receiver. KU Lnb used to align dish to 9 East and Spectrum then used to fine tune the KA LNB alignment.

But Rain / Clear sky/ overcast? Ka is INCREDIBLY more sensitive to weather (not just rain).

Note that Signal level is almost only a function of LNB IF amplifier and cable length. It's not relevant to reception reports, only quality or even Analogue SNR are useful, and only if the weather known (not just where dish is either as it's a 30 degree elevation so rain from high level 20kms to south/south west and clear sky overhead, or even ice crystals in sky 20kms away can dramatically change signal compared to true clear sky.

givecredit · 25-02-2012 3:59pm

watty wrote: »

But Rain / Clear sky/ overcast? Ka is INCREDIBLY more sensitive to weather (not just rain).
.

I agree. KA is incredibily more sensitive. I have been testing saorsat on 110cm triax dish with 16deg on prime focus for over 2 weeks now. On my setup I get 80% quality in clear skys. Signal level 60%
If it gets anyway cloudy signal level changes dramatically. Can drop by 10%. whereas the ku sats would not be affected. In heavy rain signal levels have dropped to 26%!

But the picture is resilient.No picture breakup whatsoever, unlike ku bands that would be unwatchable at 25-26% levels.

My figures are not scientific. Taken using a VU+ and Ferguson ariva 120. Cable lenght circa 110 metres.

watty · 25-02-2012 4:30pm

RTE is using FEC 1/2. Feeds use 7/8 (big dishes) and regular Ku DTH is 5/6 to 3/4. So a LOT of errors can be corrected.

The needed "quality" is dependant on FEC, assuming it's the raw BER that's measured. You need VERY good "quality" for FEC 7/8!

buggane · 25-02-2012 6:04pm

Seems strange its missing the IOM completely however if 1.8 and 2m dishes (can't be many of them round here) are not getting a peep I may put my trial with a 1.1m dish on hold for a while.

Someone needs to tell that Ka band dealer (mentioned earler in the thread) who reports signal reception from the IOM that the news may be premature. Can't see many people here jumping to get Kasat lnbs but it would be a shame if they end up with a useless bit of kit!

Oh well what you've never had you don't miss - or is it where there's a will there's a way!!!

Peddyr · 25-02-2012 8:12pm

buggane wrote: »

Seems strange its missing the IOM completely however if 1.8 and 2m dishes (can't be many of them round here) are not getting a peep I may put my trial with a 1.1m dish on hold for a while.

Someone needs to tell that Ka band dealer (mentioned earler in the thread) who reports signal reception from the IOM that the news may be premature. Can't see many people here jumping to get Kasat lnbs but it would be a shame if they end up with a useless bit of kit!

Oh well what you've never had you don't miss - or is it where there's a will there's a way!!!

I was waiting for a confirmed reception here in IOM before having a go myself. Doesn't look too hopeful does it? It might just be possible though in my location given my proximity to Ireland at 36mls, (58km).

Skanco · 25-02-2012 8:50pm

We carried out some test on the single track road that runs from Cregneash Village to Port Erin. Saorview was received from Kippure and Three Rock UHF. Three Rock is run as a SFN with Kippure, the two transmitters currently broadcast on UHF channel 54. Might be worth a try at your location. These tests will continues from Monday weather permitting, I will be joined by an engineer who knows the island well

Stinicker · 25-02-2012 9:00pm

My signal was down to 62% this evening in very dense low lying fog.

Peddyr · 25-02-2012 9:36pm

Skanco wrote: »

We carried out some test on the single track road that runs from Cregneash Village to Port Erin. Saorview was received from Kippure and Three Rock UHF. Three Rock is run as a SFN with Kippure, the two transmitters currently broadcast on UHF channel 54. Might be worth a try at your location. These tests will continues from Monday weather permitting, I will be joined by an engineer who knows the island well

Thanks Skanco, I've been receiving Irish DTT since 2006. I can pick it up from both 3R and Kippure but difficult to tell which one now as they're both SFN on Ch54. Can also get analogue from CC and Saorview should romp in here from CC after DSO in October when the null is removed. I hope the Sat tests will prove positive in some regions of the Island, at least in western and southern coastal areas. If I ever leave Cregneash, it'd be good to know where Saorsat can be received here.

Good luck with the testing!

Cesium Clock · 26-02-2012 2:07am

the EIRP of RTENL transmisions on 9 east will be increased before the official launch date , as of present NW Donegal would need a 1.3m + dish to receive.
Source 'contact in Eutelsat'.

The information makes logical sense as the 2% who cannot recieve saorview have to be catered for.

Cesium Clock · 26-02-2012 2:27am

0010 007.jpg

1.2M motorised dish with KA lnb holder 4 degree offset from 13 east hotbird, 4 way diseqc switch, very overcast Midlands.

readings took from LNB loopthru at reciever, cable approx 12M of ct125, compression F'.s

watty · 26-02-2012 11:22am

Cesium Clock wrote: »

the EIRP of RTENL transmisions on 9 east will be increased before the official launch date , as of present NW Donegal would need a 1.3m + dish to receive.
Source 'contact in Eutelsat'.

My information is that current signal levels are just for test, that extreme edge of Footprint needs 1.1M (edge of Donegal), not 1.3m, but it's irrelevant.

Only what ever RTENL/RTE/Saorview say is Dish size counts.
Currently there is no actual service just Test until RTENL say otherwise. Announcement expected soon.

excollier · 26-02-2012 11:46am

The fact that Triax seem, now, to be pushing a TD78 with multifeed for Astra and Ka-Sat probably gives some indication as to the signal strength they intend to use.
ISAA have a demo on You Tube.
Just an observation.

zg3409 · 26-02-2012 3:52pm

Yes triax will be demoing a td78 with dual feed this week. I am not sure which LNB will be at the focus etc.

Regarding Isle of Man I asked the website claiming confirmed signal on the Isle of Man and they replied saying it was from one of their customers who purchased a KA LNB. The same site has only been selling them recently after the 7dB drop in power, so I don't know which to believe.

One person says Isle of Man OK, 2nd hand, another says no signal at any place on the island. It might be worth the person/group that could not get a signal to contact the site and ask nicely to pass their details on to the person who confirmed the report, and have a chat face to face. It could be something simple causing a problem, like too big a dish.

The claim is here:
http://www.satellitetvshop.co.uk/ka_lnb

. So far we have confirmed reception in Wales and the Isle Of Man, you should also be able to receive Saorsat in the South west tip of England

The contact page is here:
http://www.satellitetvshop.co.uk/index.php?route=information/contact

As mentioned already the signal may be increased by 7dB around the day of official launch. That would make a massive difference to fringe reception. Presumably TG4 will be added on that day. The official Saorsat box is being launched this week by Triax.

excollier · 26-02-2012 4:14pm

The Ka lnb will be nearest the dish focus, with the dish centred at roughly 13e.
I tried it last night on a TD88, and got a good balance between that and 28.2e (on my meter). Posted my result, for what it's worth, on satellites.co.uk plus ISAA's link to their You Tube video of the TD78 dual feed.
See here

http://www.satellites.co.uk/forums/saorsat-irish-freesat-saorview-terrestrial-digital/197382-saorsat-multifeed.html#post1025555

It was only tinkering in the back yard

Fin McCool · 28-02-2012 12:07am

Have set up a Triax TD88 exactly like this & it's working well

http://www.sat-planet.ie/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=3

zg3409 · 28-02-2012 2:55pm

http://www.powercity.ie/?par=10-24-WP75HD&pages=1&prod=WP75HD&brands=WALKER&image=

Model : WP75SAT-HD
Specifications
Walker Free To Air Satellite Box
Hd Digital Satellite Receiver
No Subscription Or Monthly Bills
Perfect For Ex-sky Subscribers
Bbc1 -bbc2- Bbc3- Bbc4
Itv1 -itv2 -itv3 -itv4
5- Bbc Hd- Itv Hd- Ch4 Hd
Hdmi Digital Tv Connection
7 Day On Screen Program Guide
Usb Recorder And Player
Hi-fi Stereo Sound
On Screen Display
Signal Level & Quality Indicator
Infra Red Remote Control
Ready For Rte Satellite (SaorSAT)
Rte Now Broadcasting Kasat 9e
Installation Service Available
Requires Ka Lnb

and there is one advertised on eBay:
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Walker-HD-DVB-S2-Satellite-Receiver-FTA-Saorsat-Compatible-USB-PVR-7-Day-EPG-/190645548048?pt=UK_ConEle_SatCableFreeview_RL&hash=item2c635c3410

WP75SAT-HD

This receiver can be used to receive both Saorsat (Ka Sat 9E) & SatFree (Astra 28.2) simultaneously.
Saorsat requires a Ka band LNB and Astra uses a standard Universal LNB.
Both can be mounted on the same dish eg. Triax TD78 with LNB multiholder.
ie. >100 channels including RTE, BBC, ITV, CHANNEL 4, News, Film, Kids, Music etc & HD channels.
It also features 7-Day programme guide for both Saorsat and SatFree channels.

Features:
HD Satellite Receiver DVB-S2
5000 Program Memory
USB 2.0 Multimedia Connector & Recording
Video :AVI, MP4, XviD/3ivx, MJPEG, MS ISO, MPEG2-TS, H264-TS, MPEG-4 SP, MPEG-4 ASP, MPEG2, MPEG1 - Audio/Photo : MP3, JPEG Baseline, Progressive
HDMI 1080i
7 Day On Screen Program Guide for Saorsat & Sat4Free
Signal Level & Quality Indicator
Remote Control, Batteries & HD Lead Included
UniCable, DiSEqC 1.0, 1.2 enabled for multiple LNB systems
Scart Socket - S/PDIF Optical Digital Audio
F-Socket LNB Input
HDMI 1.3a up to 1080i
Ethernet RJ45
USB 2.0 (Rear)

Tony · 28-02-2012 3:12pm

I'd be interested to know how they are achieving this , if its over the air via freesat stream I would think freesat Uk would object as they have in the past when sat4free was around.

zg3409 wrote: »

It also features 7-Day programme guide for both Saorsat and SatFree channels.

STB · 28-02-2012 5:45pm

Tony wrote: »

I'd be interested to know how they are achieving this , if its over the air via freesat stream I would think freesat Uk would object as they have in the past when sat4free was around.

I now know how they might have implemented it.

The 7 day EPG is not combined. You must exit source from 28.2 groupings (entertainment etc) to 9E in order for that 7 day epg to work. Think Freesat TV software and switching sopurce to dvb-t.

And quite obviously they are using sat4free's software from Grundig (Tont you fear right) its a Freesatish API which must be exited to load the other channels not on Freesat. This may be fine if they implement it on these combo's I have been hearing all about but have yet to see. But remember the 7 epg will not be combined, as it will involve switching sources from the dvb-t to dvb-s tuner on the remote. .

givecredit · 28-02-2012 5:48pm

STB wrote: »

The 7 day EPG is not combined. You must exit source from DVB-T to DVB-S2 in order for that to work. Think Freesat TV software.

.

Now i am really confused. Is this Walker box not just a satellite receiver. How can it access the DVB-T epg from saorview?

I assume it will access that EIT epg from saorsat and freesat epg from freesat/"satfree"

STB · 28-02-2012 5:57pm

givecredit wrote: »

Now i am really confused. Is this Walker box not just a satellite receiver. How can it access the DVB-T epg from saorview?

I assume it will access that EIT epg from saorsat and freesat epg from freesat/"satfree"

Either I am too slow with my edits or you are too quick with your replies. I was in middle of editing it. I was typing further ahead of myself as to what the combo's will perform like knowing what they have done. Does it make sense now ?

Tony · 28-02-2012 6:02pm

I hope they got permission from Freesat to do this otherwise injunctions will start flying around as before.

givecredit · 28-02-2012 6:22pm

STB wrote: »

Either I am too slow with my edits or you are too quick with your replies. I was in middle of editing it. I was typing further ahead of myself as to what the combo's will perform like knowing what they have done. Does it make sense now ?

Yes make sence now. Look forward to seeing their combo box if and when it comes out.
A combo may sell well in the UK too. Giving them access to Freeview and freesat in one receiver and hopefully being able to sort channel order as you want it, (Putting HD channels at top of epg etc)

Freesat will not be happy....

Chuck Stone · 28-02-2012 7:25pm

Why wouldn't Freesat commission a 7 day FTA UK sat EPG box that could receive Saorview?

They'd sell a shed load of them would they not?

Tony · 28-02-2012 7:59pm

Chuck Stone wrote: »

They'd sell a shed load of them would they not?

No they would not , the market here is very small in comparison to the UK and Freesat would have no interest in such a box in any case as they are a Uk only service.

RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

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