Demands for ban on camper van parking

Martin_D · 06-10-2014 12:08am

very interesting - would love to have heard the objectors and County Council on their reasons to seek to ban - none apparent to me. Great to see local community benefiting - at absolutely no cost to themselves - an absolute win win.

*Kol* · 06-10-2014 12:42am

pastense wrote: »

There is an image of a CamperVan on the sign but what I'd like to know is, how is this 'law' enforced and what are the consequences of breaking this 'law'.
Its great to hear the local support and having decided not to visit Kerry ever again in my Campervan I'm now having a small change of mind but I'll watch this space because nobody will stop me from going where I want in my own country.
Kerry isn't a republic within a republic no more or less than any other county and while their councillors may have a little clout we don't elect them to deny rights to other Irish citizens.

It's actually a caravan on the sign. Looks like a nice place. What are people's opinions of caravans camping overnight in car parks etc?

piuswal · 06-10-2014 12:50am

That's a great clip from Cromane.. I wonder did they find out how the ban originated?

Should the clip be copied to the Waterford Councillors?

Should it be copied to Dungarvan business people ?

Malta1 · 06-10-2014 1:56pm

demoreino wrote: »

I emailed my thoughts on this subject to all the councillors in Waterford listed above on Tuesday 30th September .
I only got 1 reply and it supported our views on this matter .
Can I or should I name the councillor that replied ?
Kevin www.iwmotorhomes.ie

Hi Kevin

You got one more than me so :eek:

niloc1951 · 06-10-2014 3:12pm

*Kol* wrote: »

It's actually a caravan on the sign. Looks like a nice place. What are people's opinions of caravans camping overnight in car parks etc?

The key difference is a motorhome is a motor vehicle and a caravan is a trailer. It is legal to park a motorcaravan where other motor vehicles are allowed to park.
It is not legal to leave an unhitched trailer on the public road.
Vehicle parking areas are part of the public road, if in doubt try your luck being over the drink drive limit and in charge of a vehicle in such a place.

The rule in Europe is that caravans are prohibited from being left unhitched on motorhome parking places.
Specifically in Spain winding down steadies is prohibited, try using a caravan without the steadies down :eek:

*Kol* · 06-10-2014 3:33pm

niloc1951 wrote: »

The key difference is a motorhome is a motor vehicle and a caravan is a trailer. It is legal to park a motorcaravan where other motor vehicles are allowed to park.
It is not legal to leave an unhitched trailer on the public road.
Vehicle parking areas are part of the public road, if in doubt try your luck being over the drink drive limit and in charge of a vehicle in such a place.

The rule in Europe is that caravans are prohibited from being left unhitched on motorhome parking places.
Specifically in Spain winding down steadies is prohibited, try using a caravan without the steadies down :eek:

I agree with what you say above. I do see more frequently caravans parking in areas where motorhomes are parking overnight (the "no overnight parking" areas). Are they more in the wrong given the rules above or is it a case of two wrongs making a right? Lastly should they be allowed to use public overnight parking facilities?

niloc1951 · 06-10-2014 5:39pm

*Kol* wrote: »

............................................... should they be allowed to use public overnight parking facilities?

Why not if they are just parking. SEE HERE FOR A DEFINITION

Our local authorities really do need to familiarise themselves on how the whole issue is dealt with in other European countries and in particular discover how parking and camping are separately defined as a means to prohibit camping where it's not appropriate.

campingcarist · 06-10-2014 6:18pm

On the continent, camper owners won the right to park in parking areas where truckers stopped overnight because, as truckers, motorhome owners also lived within the vehicle whereas, caraveners were towing their living quarters so did not live in their vehicle.

As time went on, small communities quickly saw the potential for their businesses by having designated areas for motorhomers who would purchase their needs and then continue on with their holidays. Thus, the numerous modern Aires were born.

I am sure that businesses in Ireland, especially those in smaller towns and villages, understand the benefit of having a regular passing trade. However, councillors, often with other interests, seem to not recognise the advantages.

Are the businesses in Dunmore East happy with the closing of the "aire" on the top of the cliffs?

piuswal · 06-10-2014 10:08pm

Very interesting video.

Alerted Dungarvan people about it.

Found http://www.motorcaravanningireland.org/; not sure how I missed it up to now.

Worth visiting re facilities if you have not seen it already.

Yes it seems Phoenix MHC are making a representation to Waterford Councillors prior to their November meeting as are representatives of the campsite owners.

I'm assuming that's the 2 local owners.

I'd be very interested as to how they'll make their case and how MH owners can easily access the town without having to pack up each time for a 4 to 8 km journey and then settle down again on their return to the campsite.

My views on Dungarvan options;

While the Lookout is a beautiful spot it has quite limited capacity. Quanns close by has much greater capacity, including easy access to water and power. I believe it could be readily developed into one of the best located urban Aires in the country. A very readily available and adaptable site, simply providing parking bays, is the car park on Friary Street which has a lot of capacity.

There are a number of other potential sites about, particularly close to the ring road and by the shopping centre.

All in all there are many potential sites in and about the town but to me Quanns has by far the greatest potential.

piuswal · 06-10-2014 10:15pm

campingcarist wrote: »

On the continent, camper owners won the right to park in parking areas where truckers stopped overnight because, as truckers, motorhome owners also lived within the vehicle whereas, caraveners were towing their living quarters so did not live in their vehicle.

As time went on, small communities quickly saw the potential for their businesses by having designated areas for motorhomers who would purchase their needs and then continue on with their holidays. Thus, the numerous modern Aires were born.

I am sure that businesses in Ireland, especially those in smaller towns and villages, understand the benefit of having a regular passing trade. However, councillors, often with other interests, seem to not recognise the advantages.

Are the businesses in Dunmore East happy with the closing of the "aire" on the top of the cliffs?

I see it was the Dept. of Agriculture closed the Aire in Dunmore, with some encouragement from the campsite owner, I'm told.
However, in contrast to Dungarvan, I believe the old Aire and the campsite, which I understand is being further developed for MH's (can anyone confirm this?), are close to each other and both are not too far from the village, so the main issue is cost - a not insignificant factor - more to to the campsite, less to everyone else in the village.

In Dungarvan the two campsites are of the order of 4 to 8 km from the town and so not readily accessible, especially for us more mature folk who would not fancy having to walk or jog to the town and back for whatever reason.

*Kol* · 06-10-2014 11:33pm

niloc1951 wrote: »

Why not if they are just parking. SEE HERE FOR A DEFINITION

Our local authorities really do need to familiarise themselves on how the whole issue is dealt with in other European countries and in particular discover how parking and camping are separately defined as a means to prohibit camping where it's not appropriate.

Am I correct to say that camping is not appropriate in Aires/overnight parking areas? If so then there are a lot of MH people currently who will not be happy campers (excuse the pun) if dedicated aires/overnight parking is provided as almost everywhere that I have witnessed overnight parking there has been tables and chairs, barbecues, leveling chocks etc

niloc1951 · 07-10-2014 12:13am

*Kol* wrote: »

Am I correct to say that camping is not appropriate in Aires/overnight parking areas? If so then there are a lot of MH people currently who will not be happy campers (excuse the pun) if dedicated aires/overnight parking is provided as almost everywhere that I have witnessed overnight parking there has been tables and chairs, barbecues, leveling chocks etc

There is a lot of misunderstanding on all sides here in Ireland concerning motorhome parking.

Those of us familiar with using Aires in Europe will understand the regulations.
Motorhome parking areas are solely for parking, if a person wants to wind out the awning, put out the furniture, set up the BBQ then you check into a camp-site.
Having said that a certain level of discreet bending of the rules is tolerated depending on the nature of the Aire and as long as it is within your parking space and it doesn't offend your neighbours or the local police. Lighting up a BBQ is definitely out though.

piuswal · 07-10-2014 12:38am

niloc1951 wrote: »

There is a lot of misunderstanding on all sides here in Ireland concerning motorhome parking.

Those of us familiar with using Aires in Europe will understand the regulations.
Motorhome parking areas are solely for parking, if a person wants to wind out the awning, put out the furniture, set up the BBQ then you check into a camp-site.
Having said that a certain level of discreet bending of the rules is tolerated depending on the nature of the Aire and as long as it is within your parking space and it doesn't offend your neighbours or the local police. Lighting up a BBQ is definitely out though.

My few visits to Aires in Spain and France would support this view.
I found that one could cook within the van and then sit out by the canal or river or green space and eat or have a drink, simply using your seat. As I said, that's from a very small sample. Though I suspect cooking and eating internally would not be an issue most places, though I'm open to correction on that point.

niloc1951 · 07-10-2014 9:25am

piuswal wrote: »

My few visits to Aires in Spain and France would support this view.
I found that one could cook within the van and then sit out by the canal or river or green space and eat or have a drink, simply using your seat. As I said, that's from a very small sample. Though I suspect cooking and eating internally would not be an issue most places, though I'm open to correction on that point.

AFAIK there is no activity of any kind prohibited in a vehicle anywhere. The one which we see sometimes No Overnight Sleeping is impossible to police, if the knock on the door isn't answered then it can't be proven someone is sleeping in the vehicle, if it is answered and all occupants are awake, ditto.

One wonders what goes on in some stretch limos.

Cooking up a bit of grub and sitting down to enjoy it with a glass of wine is hardly going to offend anyone

However if you are engaged in an activity which might cause offence to a passing member of the public is is probably best to have privacy glass or draw the blinds

Irishgoatman · 07-10-2014 11:57am

niloc1951 wrote: »

Now, this is interesting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTPGpgabWbY but notice the sign. Where's the reference to no parking of motor-caravans :rolleyes:

niloc is quite right, there is no reference to MH's on the sign but no-one being interviewed appeared to realise that.

A sign like that would certainly not worry me!, in fact I intend to take a trip down there if the weather holds.

pastense · 07-10-2014 12:17pm

Does anybody seriously believe that because there isn't an image of a Camper Van on the sign that it doesn't include them.
I'm afraid that's head in the sand stuff.
http://www.peicanada.com/eastern_graphic/article_5401677e-1cdb-11e4-b018-0019bb2963f4.html?mode=image
Have a look at this photo from another place and make up your own mind on what the sign means.

T650 · 07-10-2014 12:44pm

I spent a month on PEI with work. Lots of Irish and Scottish names together with the no nonsense attitude immigrants from these countries had

. Island originally settled by Irish immigrants from Monaghan area. Has long been the poorest province in Canada. Hard workers and friendly hosts, but with no love of bureaucrats.

Malta1 · 07-10-2014 12:45pm

pastense wrote: »

Does anybody seriously believe that because there isn't an image of a Camper Van on the sign that it doesn't include them.
I'm afraid that's head in the sand stuff.
http://www.peicanada.com/eastern_graphic/article_5401677e-1cdb-11e4-b018-0019bb2963f4.html?mode=image
Have a look at this photo from another place and make up your own mind on what the sign means.

Agree
However, I would be more interested to see what the powers that be have in the lines of legislation to enforce such "signage" and how "good" is their legislation if challenged

I get the feeling that its a "band wagon" thing at this stage - one local authority does it and the rest follow. I have heard of an incident where a guy in Wexford was asked to move his campervan/motorhome out of a beach carpark during the day - he explained that he was not staying over night but was told quiet firmly that he could not stay.......I will take a look to see if I can find link to report

Was reported in both local & national media
http://www.independent.ie/regionals/wexfordpeople/news/council-criticised-for-its-camper-van-policy-30467258.html

Irishgoatman · 07-10-2014 1:55pm

pastense wrote: »

Does anybody seriously believe that because there isn't an image of a Camper Van on the sign that it doesn't include them.
I'm afraid that's head in the sand stuff.
http://www.peicanada.com/eastern_graphic/article_5401677e-1cdb-11e4-b018-0019bb2963f4.html?mode=image
Have a look at this photo from another place and make up your own mind on what the sign means.

That sign clearly refers to caravans and tents as shown. It's irrelevant to try saying that it means something else, are we supposed to read the minds of councillors?. I would love to argue this one in a court of law.

pastense · 07-10-2014 3:28pm

Irishgoatman wrote: »

That sign clearly refers to caravans and tents as shown. It's irrelevant to try saying that it means something else, are we supposed to read the minds of councillors?. I would love to argue this one in a court of law.

I'd leave the arguing in court to qualified legal people myself. NO CAMPING means what it says and a Motorhome/Camper Van comes under that umbrella whether we like it or not. Just because it doesn't include an image is childish, we are not 5 year olds.

To maintain that the sign was not intended to include Motorhomes/Camper Vans is letting the Council/Councillors off the hook.

*Kol* · 07-10-2014 3:52pm

pastense wrote: »

I'd leave the arguing in court to qualified legal people myself. NO CAMPING means what it says and a Motorhome/Camper Van comes under that umbrella whether we like it or not. Just because it doesn't include an image is childish, we are not 5 year olds.

To maintain that the sign was not intended to include Motorhomes/Camper Vans is letting the Council/Councillors off the hook.

I agree however it depends on whether the legislation behind the signs is specific to motorhomes or not. All that a courtroom visit would serve to do is to get the signs changed to include motorhomes/get the legislation changed to include motorhomes. It is clear that no form of camping/parking overnight is wanted in areas where these signs are.

Irishgoatman · 07-10-2014 4:25pm

pastense wrote: »

I'd leave the arguing in court to qualified legal people myself. NO CAMPING means what it says and a Motorhome/Camper Van comes under that umbrella whether we like it or not. Just because it doesn't include an image is childish, we are not 5 year olds.

To maintain that the sign was not intended to include Motorhomes/Camper Vans is letting the Council/Councillors off the hook.

I find it interesting that you can take my last sentence literally but can put a different interpretation on the sign in question.
From a personal point of view, signs like that will not stop me from parking.

We will have to agree to differ on what the sign means as apposed to what it actually says.

Irishgoatman · 07-10-2014 4:28pm

*Kol* wrote: »

It is clear that no form of camping/parking overnight is wanted in areas where these signs are.

It was very clear, in the youtube video, that locals and T.D. Rae do not agree with this with regard to MH's.

niloc1951 · 07-10-2014 5:45pm

pastense wrote: »

I'd leave the arguing in court to qualified legal people myself. NO CAMPING means what it says and a Motorhome/Camper Van comes under that umbrella whether we like it or not. Just because it doesn't include an image is childish, we are not 5 year olds.

To maintain that the sign was not intended to include Motorhomes/Camper Vans is letting the Council/Councillors off the hook.

To follow your argument means that if I park my motorhome among other vehicles in an an area where parking is permitted I'm engaged in camping

As regards the approach by the Garda in Kilmore Quay I would have seen him/her in court but I certainly would not have moved if I was parked where vehicles are allowed park and not causing an obstruction to other traffic.

*Kol* · 07-10-2014 7:46pm

Irishgoatman wrote: »

It was very clear, in the youtube video, that locals and T.D. Rae do not agree with this with regard to MH's.

despite that the sign is still there.

Irishgoatman · 07-10-2014 11:34pm

Getting rid of the sign is not that important. Getting councillors to re-think their ideas is.

Malta1 · 08-10-2014 9:04am

Right - this thread has been rumbling on for a while

We had a concentrated effort to get the RSA to see sense and we were successful

So what are we going to do about this - How do we go about persuading the councillors that they have made an error of judgement?

piuswal · 08-10-2014 9:22am

Malta1 wrote: »

Right - this thread has been rumbling on for a while

We had a concentrated effort to get the RSA to see sense and we were successful

So what are we going to do about this - How do we go about persuading the councillors that they have made an error of judgement?

See Niloc 's post of the 25th re lobbying Councillors and subsequent post giving Councillors email addresses.
Get as many MH owners as you know to canvas them.
Some of them have seen the Cobh facilities, at a minimum we should try and persuade them to adopt the same but Dungarvan has the space for a proper serviced Aire and I feel that should be the ultimate aim.
If one town develops a full serviced Aire then we the precedent that administrators in particular are so enamoured of.

Start lobbying the councillors and get fellow MH owners to do the same.

We got a figure of c 10,000 taxed MHs a few years ago. Anyone any idea how many there are in NI? and how many came from the UK and from mainland Europe last year or this year?

niloc1951 · 08-10-2014 9:52am

on the question of overseas visitors.
Visitor statistics collected by Fáilte Ireland do not differentiate between those who arrive off our ferries in cars and motorhomes so they have no idea of the size of the motorhome market sector :rolleyes:

piuswal · 08-10-2014 10:09am

niloc1951 wrote: »

on the question of overseas visitors.
Visitor statistics collected by Fáilte Ireland do not differentiate between those who arrive off our ferries in cars and motorhomes so they have no idea of the size of the motorhome market sector :rolleyes:

Thanks.
I wonder about the ferry companies?
Any chance they would make the numbers available
Given that all vehicles are specified, or are they?

Demands for ban on camper van parking

Comments