Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

eviltwin · 03-06-2014 12:19pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Have you asked them? They might, they should.

Have you ever tried asking an order for any information? Its like getting blood from a stone. I've had personal experience of it and that only related to the most basic of information for the person involved, nothing earth shattering or on a scale like this.

eviltwin · 03-06-2014 12:20pm

ryan101 wrote: »

This is not a valid reason to skip a proper detailed investigation. Prosecutions can still be made, with or without co-operation.

You would hope so but after such a long time how can anything be proved? No one will be able to say for sure how any of those children died.

mrsbyrne · 03-06-2014 12:22pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Investigating the matter would require the input of the order running the home, do you really think they are going to bother themselves?

Well if even only the posters on this thread who claim to "know" what happened at Tuam made a statement to Gardai then the Guards would probably get permission from the judiciary to serve a warrant on the Order to compel them to cooperate. Then they would have to produce their records and the investigation could move on.
Posters seem to be reluctant though to go to the Guards with their evidence . I don't know why. Its as if they don't actually know what happened and are just wildly recklessly speculating about a topic which may be causing terrible mental anguish to people involved who are still alive. And I'm not talking about the nuns.

ryan101 · 03-06-2014 12:23pm

eviltwin wrote: »

You would hope so but after such a long time how can anything be proved? No one will be able to say for sure how any of those children died.

Again this is not a reason to skip a detailed investigation. Modern forensics are very able, this burial site was in use up to the 60's and plenty of witnesses, including former children and lay staff are still alive to be interviewed to find out what actually happened via a properly constituted enquiry. Then prosecutions can follow, and prison for anyone found guilty of an act or omission, beyond all reasonable doubt, in a proper court of law.

I Heart Internet · 03-06-2014 12:24pm

eviltwin wrote: »

You would hope so but after such a long time how can anything be proved? No one will be able to say for sure how any of those children died.

So we should jump to the worst possible conclusion?

Doesn't the historian's report give soem details at least. Measles was attributed to some deaths. Measles was an appaling killer in the first half of this century. Would be more devastating in crowded environments.

Flippyfloppy · 03-06-2014 12:27pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

So, if we don't know, we should investigate the matter.

Obviously. However, the point is, this mass grave was discovered in the 1970's. Yet it hasn't been investigated yet. Which screams of unbelievable allowances towards what goes on behind the CC doors.

SpaceTime · 03-06-2014 12:27pm

While we can't really put this right, I think we need to just barge through any red-tape, religious bureaucracy, secrecy or anything else and get fully to the bottom of what happened here.

At the very least, these kids need to be identified, their deaths explained properly and recorded properly. Any criminality needs to be investigated and if anyone's still alive who participated in it, prosecuted accordingly. If they're capable of standing in court, that's where they should be.

The kids need to have birth and death certs and their existence needs to be acknowledged. While we can't go back in time and rescue them, we should at the very least recognise that they existed, know what happened to them, give them a right to judicial processes to seek justice and explanation to how they ended up in a septic tank and mourn their loss.

These are 800 very vulnerable Irish citizens who somehow ended up in a septic tank! That absolutely warrants full investigation!

shruikan2553 · 03-06-2014 12:28pm

You would think having a pit of children in your back garden is a normal thing with how some people are going on. If this was found in my back garden I would be questioned and if I owned the property at the time and kept children at it I would be investigated so thoroughly I wouldn't be able to walk right. Were people sneaking in past the nuns when they weren't looking to dump the bodies? Burying a baby in secret from the church wasn't an uncommon thing so it must have been that.

I Heart Internet · 03-06-2014 12:29pm

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Obviously. However, the point is, this mass grave was discovered in the 1970's. Yet it hasn't been investigated yet. Which screams of unbelievable allowances towards what goes on behind the CC doors.

Yes, and a culture of complacency with regard to how children were treated in society, especially poor children.

Tabnabs · 03-06-2014 12:29pm

Some facts that are being reported online:

A local health board inspection report from April 1944 recorded 271 children and 61 single mothers in residence, a total of 333 in a building that had a capacity for 243.

The report described the children as “emaciated,” “pot-bellied,” “fragile” with “flesh hanging loosely on limbs.” The report noted that 31 children in the “sun room and balcony” were “poor, emaciated and not thriving.” The effects of long term neglect and malnutrition were observed repeatedly.

Children died at The Home at the rate of one a fortnight for almost 40 years, one report claims. Another appears to claim that 300 children died between 1943 and 1946, which would mean two deaths a week in the isolated institution.

http://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/cahirodoherty/Galway-historian-reveals-truth-behind-800-orphans-in-mass-grave.html

The deaths of 796 children in this "home" are recorded by the Galway Births and Deaths Registrar. It is known from surviving relatives that more deaths occurred and were not properly recorded (as was required by law).

The babies were usually buried in a plain shroud without a coffin in a plot that had housed a water tank attached to the workhouse that preceded the mother and child home.

A relative of one boy who lived there, William Joseph Dolan, has made a formal complaint to gardai after she failed to find his death certificate, despite records in the home stating that he had died.

More on the children from the health authority report:

One 13-month-old boy was described as a 'miserable, emaciated child with voracious appetite and no control over bodily functions and probably mentally defective'.

In the same room was a 'delicate' ten-month-old baby who was a 'child of itinerants', while one five-year-old child was described as having 'hands growing near shoulders'.

Another 31 infants in the same room were described as 'poor babies, emaciated and not thriving'.

Here's an eyewitness report on how these children were "cared for"

An 85-year-old woman who survived the children's home in Tuam has told of the miserable conditions at the home, where she was placed in 1932.

The woman, who gave her name only as Mary, and now lives in the west of Ireland, spent four years in the home before being placed with a foster family.

She said: 'I remember going into the home when I was about four. There was a massive hall in it and it was full of young kids running round and they were dirty and cold.

'There were well over 100 children in there and there were three or four nuns who minded us.

'The building was very old and we were let out the odd time, but at night the place was absolutely freezing with big stone walls.

'When we were eating it was in this big long hall and they gave us all this soup out of a big pot, which I remember very well. It was rotten to taste, but it was better than starving.'

Mary recalled that the children were 'rarely washed', and often wore the same clothes for weeks at a time.

She said: 'We were filthy dirty. I remember one time when I soiled myself, the nuns ducked me down into a big cold bath and I never liked nuns after that.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2645870/Mass-grave-contains-bodies-800-babies-site-Irish-home-unmarried-mothers.html

Just to confirm, this is what we are talking about; small children, individual human beings, "equal" citizens of Ireland (supposedly with rights under the Constitution). These were the contemporaries of the children who were condemned by the catholic church, the State and the Irish nation to lie in a mass concrete tomb.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/europe/ireland/140602/mass-grave-childrens-home-800-babies

We should all stand up for the neglect, abuse and horror that was visited on these Irish citizens. Write to your TD, demand that this is investigated fully and openly.

Flippyfloppy · 03-06-2014 12:30pm

mrsbyrne wrote: »

As far as I know an investigation has yet to take place, never mind conclusions being drawn.
Yet you claim to know what happened.
Have you presented your evidence to the Gardai? Another poster on this thread claimed to "know" what happened at Tuam as well. If everybody who "knows' what happened at Tuam r any other potential scene of crime would simply present themselves at a Garda station and make a statement then it would expediate each investigation and the Guards could move swiftly through the process to where arrests could be made.

Yes, everybody knows what happened. 800 bodies found in a mass grave. I really don't think the inverted commas are required there. Are you suggesting that 800 bodies have not been found? Or are you suggesting that no explanation is required from the sisters of mercy?

eviltwin · 03-06-2014 12:31pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

So we should jump to the worst possible conclusion?

Doesn't the historian's report give soem details at least. Measles was attributed to some deaths. Measles was an appaling killer in the first half of this century. Would be more devastating in crowded environments.

No we shouldn't but questions need to be asked.

Even if every child died of a natural cause dumping their remains in a tank like rubbish is a disgusting way to treat their bodies. You wouldn't treat a animal like that.

Flippyfloppy · 03-06-2014 12:34pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Yes, and a culture of complacency with regard to how children were treated in society, especially poor children.

Absolutely, I agree with that. :eek:

I Heart Internet · 03-06-2014 12:35pm

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Yes, everybody knows what happened. 800 bodies found in a mass grave. I really don't think the inverted commas are required there. Are you suggesting that 800 bodies have not been found? Or are you suggesting that no explanation is required from the sisters of mercy?

Has the site been excavated? How do you know there are 800 human remains there? Can you know for sure there are not 80 bodies? Or 8,000?

jank · 03-06-2014 12:36pm

aboysham wrote: »

Most people here are calling for judicial action.

As am I but I think when people are calling for extrajudicial action then you are no better than the RCC of old.

I Heart Internet · 03-06-2014 12:36pm

eviltwin wrote: »

No we shouldn't but questions need to be asked.

Even if every child died of a natural cause dumping their remains in a tank like rubbish is a disgusting way to treat their bodies. You wouldn't treat a animal like that.

Agreed. But we should investigate to see how these remains were treated. Not use emotive language that assumes the very worst of intentions and treatment.

shruikan2553 · 03-06-2014 12:39pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Agreed. But we should investigate to see how these remains were treated. Not use emotive language that assumes the very worst of intentions and treatment.

Because mass unmarked grave surely has an innocent story behind it. Doesn't explain why the rate of death was a lot higher either.

ryan101 · 03-06-2014 12:40pm

eviltwin wrote: »

No we shouldn't but questions need to be asked.

Even if every child died of a natural cause dumping their remains in a tank like rubbish is a disgusting way to treat their bodies. You wouldn't treat a animal like that.

Hundreds of similar burial grounds exist in Ireland. Our local hospital, and many others, have a mass burial site for still born and premature children and it used it up until the 70's. These sites should all be investigated as well. Even today miscarried children are treated as hospital waste.

What makes the Tuam site specifically different from all these other sites, is the older ages of the Children involved, so it should be made a priority for investigation.

Flippyfloppy · 03-06-2014 12:40pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Has the site been excavated? How do you know there are 800 human remains there? Can you know for sure there are not 80 bodies? Or 8,000?

Now, that's what you call speculation. How long is a piece of string?

The site has not being excavated, by the state anyway, because the State has ignored it's existence.

I Heart Internet · 03-06-2014 12:41pm

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Because mass unmarked grave surely has an innocent story behind it. Doesn't explain why the rate of death was a lot higher either.

So there should be a thorough investigation to find out.

dutopia · 03-06-2014 12:41pm

Did you watch RTE news when they reported this? They interviewed a priest at the site and he started out by saying "We can't judge the past...", I nearly spat my dinner out. Some nerve the church have.

SpaceTime · 03-06-2014 12:41pm

I know those posed photographs were probably for the annual report or whatever, but just look at the faces of those kids in the photo where they're all sitting around the tables eating.

There isn't a single smile and more telling, their eyes look 'dead'. That isn't how toddlers normally behave or look.

I Heart Internet · 03-06-2014 12:42pm

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Now, that's what you call speculation. How long is a piece of string?

The site has not being excavated, by the state anyway, because the State has ignored it's existence.

So how do you know there are 800 bodies contained within it? How do you know who they are, children or adults?

mrsbyrne · 03-06-2014 12:42pm

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Yes, everybody knows what happened. 800 bodies found in a mass grave. I really don't think the inverted commas are required there. Are you suggesting that 800 bodies have not been found? Or are you suggesting that no explanation is required from the sisters of mercy?

Yes but you don't know how the bodies got there. You don't know who put them there or why or when.
You are just speculating.
That's why there needs to be an investigation.
You don't appear to want an investigation . You appear to want to go straight from wild allegations to punishment phase.
BTW the Mercy Sisters won't be able to help the investigation as the actual Order of nuns is Bons Secours. Its always more productive to investigate the correct people.

jank · 03-06-2014 12:42pm

Cabaal wrote: »

I Heart Internet, most people in Ireland would gladly vote in a referendum to allow the Irish Government to have the powers to seize church assets which could be then sold to compensate victims.

However sympathetic I am towards the victims of abuse perpetrated by the RCC I think the idea above would be terrible and would just amount to mob rule in the Irish republic. Remember, there is a difference between a democracy and a republic. Ireland is or at least is supposed to be a republic.

Do you have figures to back your claim that most people in Ireland would support this 'referendum'? If this was to transpire you may as well erase all rights of private property of the Irish constituion.

I Heart Internet · 03-06-2014 12:43pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

I know those posed photographs were probably for the annual report or whatever, but just look at the faces of those kids in the photo where they're all sitting around the tables eating.

There isn't a single smile and more telling, their eyes look 'dead'. That isn't how toddlers normally behave or look.

The kids in the top picture look positively charming.

Brian Shanahan · 03-06-2014 12:45pm

ryan101 wrote: »

Actual facts and what actually took place is important, I've called for a full independent investigation and for the Gardai to investigate, if any crime has been committed then there should be prosecutions, a trial and prison for anyone found guilty.

What do you mean "your betters" ?

As I said above, stop trying to shout down your betters when your peers are, like you, trying to obfuscate or nitpick this outrage away from the spotlight.

And you know well who your betters are, they are those of us whose moral outrage at this or equiavlent crimes is not diminished by the fact that those committing the crimes are the leaders of whatever religious or political faction you believe in.

SpaceTime · 03-06-2014 12:45pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

The kids in the top picture look positively charming.

Based on the facts though, and the accounts of various people who'd been through those 'homes', I doubt those pictures were very reflective of reality. They look like the PR shots or the photos they sent out when they were looking for charitable donations or sending a letter to the Minister's office.

I Heart Internet · 03-06-2014 12:47pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

Based on the facts though, and the accounts of various people who'd been through those 'homes', I doubt those pictures were very reflective of reality. They look like the PR shots or the photos they sent out when they were looking for charitable donations or sending a letter to the Minister's office.

I don't know. But if they are being held up as indicative of the hellish nature of these institutions then they aren't really.

SpaceTime · 03-06-2014 12:51pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

I don't know. But if they are being held up as indicative of the hellish nature of these institutions then they aren't really.

I think we both know they're not being held up as an example of that. They're just the usual PR shots that any of these organisations produce. The whole problem here was that these places put forward an image of being one thing while in reality were something very different.

ryan101 · 03-06-2014 12:54pm

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

As I said above, stop trying to shout down your betters when your peers are, like you, trying to obfuscate or nitpick this outrage away from the spotlight.

And you know well who your betters are, they are those of us whose moral outrage at this or equiavlent crimes is not diminished by the fact that those committing the crimes are the leaders of whatever religious or political faction you believe in.

Shouting and betters ? I thought this was a discussion forum.
Do you think a proper investigation and proper court of law should be held where these people are proven guilty, or would you just prefer to skip all that ?

SpaceTime · 03-06-2014 12:55pm

jank wrote: »

However sympathetic I am towards the victims of abuse perpetrated by the RCC I think the idea above would be terrible and would just amount to mob rule in the Irish republic. Remember, there is a difference between a democracy and a republic. Ireland is or at least is supposed to be a republic.

Do you have figures to back your claim that most people in Ireland would support this 'referendum'? If this was to transpire you may as well erase all rights of private property of the Irish constituion.

In normal Irish or British law, if you were held (as an organisation) liable for huge compensation payments, your assets would be seized and sold eventually to pay debts. There's nothing 'mob rule' about that.

There's no referendum needed for that at all. The issue to date has been the state jumping into provide compensation schemes rather than just letting the judicial processes take their course and allowing people to sue.

mrsbyrne · 03-06-2014 12:55pm

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

As I said above, stop trying to shout down your betters when your peers are, like you, trying to obfuscate or nitpick this outrage away from the spotlight.

And you know well who your betters are, they are those of us whose moral outrage at this or equiavlent crimes is not diminished by the fact that those committing the crimes are the leaders of whatever religious or political faction you believe in.

I heart internet ,ryan101 and I have all called for a full a and thorough investigation into the discovery of this apparent mass grave. I don't see obsfucating or nitpicking on this thread or shouting down. Where do you see it?

iguana · 03-06-2014 1:01pm

Right, I'm going to start off an Avaaz petition today requesting a full Gardaí investigations and for prosecutions to happen if anyone still living is found criminally liable. And for birth and death certs to be issued for these children as they deserve at least that. Is Frances Fitzgerald the person to name to be lobbied?

ryan101 · 03-06-2014 1:03pm

iguana wrote: »

Right, I'm going to start off an Avaaz petition today requesting a full Gardaí investigations and for prosecutions to happen if anyone still living is found criminally liable. And for birth and death certs to be issued for these children as they deserve at least that. Is Frances Fitzgerald the person to name to be lobbied?

I'm happy to sign any such formal petition.
According to some of the press reports, formal complaints have been made to the Gardai, so that should help move the investigation along as well.

Tabnabs · 03-06-2014 1:04pm

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I heart internet ,ryan101 and I have all called for a full a and thorough investigation into the discovery of this apparent mass grave. I don't see obsfucating or nitpicking on this thread or shouting down. Where do you see it?

Called for a full a and thorough investigation? Where? On boards? Where have you actually called for it and who have you requested to undertake it?

Brian Shanahan · 03-06-2014 1:04pm

pauldla wrote: »

unlike you, I am not a rationalist

I heart internet, a rationalist? Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

Being a rationalist means dismissing the irrational whenever you encounter it, and by believing in an irrational* deity, IHI shows that he/she is no such thing.

*Both in the sense that the god is irrational, and it is irrational to hold an unevidenced position to be the truth.

PopePalpatine · 03-06-2014 1:05pm

iguana wrote: »

Right, I'm going to start off an Avaaz petition today requesting a full Gardaí investigations and for prosecutions to happen if anyone still living is found criminally liable. And for birth and death certs to be issued for these children as they deserve at least that. Is Frances Fitzgerald the person to name to be lobbied?

I'll sign it too.

eviltwin · 03-06-2014 1:07pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I'll sign it too.

Ditto, I'll share it around on FB too

I hope our christian friends can find it in themselves to do the same.

Czarcasm · 03-06-2014 1:09pm

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

As I said above, stop trying to shout down your betters when your peers are, like you, trying to obfuscate or nitpick this outrage away from the spotlight.

And you know well who your betters are, they are those of us whose moral outrage at this or equiavlent crimes is not diminished by the fact that those committing the crimes are the leaders of whatever religious or political faction you believe in.

50 years later, how is this attitude any different to the attitude of those that enabled and allowed this tragedy and many more like it to happen?

"You know who your betters are"...

Jesus fcuking Christ, the sheer arrogance of it. You honestly think you're "better" than another human being because you think you're morally superior to them?

Your attitude is no different to the bastards that thought they were morally superior to everyone else 50 years ago.

I Heart Internet · 03-06-2014 1:10pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Ditto, I'll share it around on FB too

I hope our christian friends can find it in themselves to do the same.

I have no doubt everyone would want to get to the truth of the matter.

Lisha · 03-06-2014 1:16pm

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Has the site been excavated? How do you know there are 800 human remains there? Can you know for sure there are not 80 bodies? Or 8,000?

At this stage does it matter HOW MANY bodies were buried?
One would be too many to be buried in a septic/water tank, with incomplete birth/death Certs.

I Heart Internet · 03-06-2014 1:20pm

Lisha wrote: »

At this stage does it matter HOW MANY bodies were buried?
One would be too many to be buried in a septic/water tank, with incomplete birth/death Certs.

Yes. It matters a great deal. Because then we will know how many people were buried there.

But you're right. One incident of mistreatement is too many.

kylith · 03-06-2014 1:21pm

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Yes, everybody knows what happened. 800 bodies found in a mass grave. I really don't think the inverted commas are required there. Are you suggesting that 800 bodies have not been found? Or are you suggesting that no explanation is required from the sisters of mercy?

AIUI I Heart Internet is saying that unless you have been to the site yourself and have counted the bodies, and unless you can point at each individual set of remains and say, for example, 'This is James O'Reilly, he died of measles', and unless you can personally say how many died of malnutrition and how many died of pneumonia, and unless you have personal first hand evidence then you can't actually prove that 800 small children died there, a death rate more suited to the mid 1700s than the mid 1900s and almost three times the national average at the time, and you should just shut up about it and stop being mean to the nuns.

eviltwin · 03-06-2014 1:21pm

Who owns the land now?

robindch · 03-06-2014 1:22pm

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

And you know well who your betters are [...]

That comment is uncalled for.

Everybody - whilst this is an emotive topic, it's best dealt with with as much calm as each poster can manage.

I Heart Internet · 03-06-2014 1:24pm

kylith wrote: »

AIUI I Heart Internet is saying that unless you have been to the site yourself and have counted the bodies, and unless you can point at each individual set of remains and say, for example, 'This is James O'Reilly, he died of measles', and unless you can personally say how many died of malnutrition and how many died of pneumonia, and unless you have personal first hand evidence then you can't actually prove that 800 small children died there, a death rate more suited to the mid 1700s than the mid 1900s and almost three times the national average at the time, and you should just shut up about it and stop being mean to the nuns.

No. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that we should aim to answer all (or as many as possible) of the questions (and more) you list above. It's the least any human being buried there deserves, rather than seeking to attribute blame (for something, we're not quite sure what), in a vacumn.

I don;t think I will ever visit the site, same as most people on here. That shouldn't preclude me (or anyone else) from speaking about it. But I reccomend we hold off on the trail and punishment (of who? We don't even know that) until a full investigation gets to the bottom of it.

mrsbyrne · 03-06-2014 1:25pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Ditto, I'll share it around on FB too

I hope our christian friends can find it in themselves to do the same.

Certainly no need for any heart searching here. I've no problem signing it.

vibe666 · 03-06-2014 1:27pm

If the catholic church believes that you cannot be absolved of your sins until you confess them, then why aren't they coming clean about all this kind of thing?

how many times do heinous crimes such as this have to be uncovered by other before they are held fully accountable for what they have done?

they call things like this "the shame of the church", but there is no shame for them when they show no guilt or remorse for what their organisation is responsible for.

Here's the latest I read this morning. http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/06/02/nj-diocese-were-not-liable-because-molesting-boys-not-part-of-priests-official-duties/

Lawyers claim the Diocese of Trenton, New Jersey, should not be held liable for sexual abuse allegedly committed by a priest because he wasn’t officially “on duty” when he molested a teenage boy.

Chris Naples claimed Rev. Terence McAlinden, who once headed the diocese’s youth group, sexually abused him during church-sponsored trips to Delaware in the 1980s.

But diocese lawyers told the Delaware Supreme Court that McAlinden was not officially on duty when the abuse took place.

“You can determine a priest is not on duty when he is molesting a child, for example,” the attorney argued. “A priest abusing a child is absolutely contrary to the pursuit of his master’s business, to the work of a diocese.”

Brian Shanahan · 03-06-2014 1:27pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Even if every child died of a natural cause dumping their remains in a tank like rubbish is a disgusting way to treat their bodies. You wouldn't treat a animal like that.

Plenty of people died of a natural cause in German Mental Institutions and Concentration Camps between 1933 and 1945, and yet there were people still tried for murder, because they were with power to stop these deaths yet did nothing, because people were slated to die in those ways.

And yes, I am comparing these homes to Nazi death camps, because it is a perfecly valid and appropriate comparison.

Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

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