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Why is Traveller disadvantage not a mainstream concern?
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We encourage people to pop out kids to generate income and to avail of free housing, whilst at the same time the cost of childcare for decent working people is quite simply not affordable for many.Channel Zero wrote: »Lovely. Could you expand on that?
Why pay child benefit in cash? Pay it in the form of uniforms and school books. Why not use taxes spent housing teen parents on childcare for working people? Let teen parents live at home until they can afford their own place-it's not our job to stick these people in housing just because they (accidentally on purpose) got pregnant.0 -
Ok thanks. Yes i can see your point to an extent. Childcare fees are atrocious for working people.0
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Actually I would consider that describing Traveller Culture as a "Culture of Idleness and Dysfunction" as both abusive and insulting and as such likely to give rise to incitment to hatred. Many members of the Traveller Community would contest that they have a culture of "idleness and Dysfunction".
I will beg to differ with your interpretation of PB's posts on this thread.
I think he debates the issue in his usual up-front and,I believe,informed fashion.
To suddenly appear,metaphorically waving a copy of "Blacks Legal Directory" and referring to legislation in a somewhat blanket like threatening manner is certainly not advancing the cause of Traveller's Rights (If they be any different from my own rights) at all.
To say, "Many members of the Travelling Community would contest that they have a culture of idleness and dysfunction" also tacitly admits that Many other members of that community contribute enthusiastically to that very culture.
Even the phraseology used tends to display a certain dislocation from reality,as people refer to Travellers livin by the side of the road,or in fields etc.
This particular form of Traveller existance has diminished rapidly as the attractions of serviced sites,or privately owned standings became apparent.
The Thread Title specifically asks WHY Traveller Disadvantage is not a mainstream concern ?
I (and others) respond by suggesting that much of that "disadvantage" is self-serving and perpretrated internally in order to allow some members of the traveller community to assert and maintain control over the rest,some of whom at least,who may be willing to follow a more sensible path for their own and their childrens sakes ...?Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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fluorescence wrote: »This may be something of a glib point, but bear with me for a moment. Irish travellers often appear on the show Big Fat Gypsy Wedding - a big part of the show tends to be asking travellers how they feel about certain events etc. One thing they always, always say is, "They hate us travellers." It doesn't matter what the event is. An illegal caravan site being shut down? "It's because they hate us." Fiancé having a court case the day of his wedding? "It's because they hate us." Given a free house by the state because their nomadic lifestyle is unsustainable? "It's because they hate us!"
Although viewed by many as "Entertainment" and by some as "Grity,fly-on-the-wall" stuff,the ongoing BFGW series and the somewhat darker recent documentaries on the cultural aspects of Traveller Brawling and Fist Fighting have conspired to further alienate "Travellers" in the mind of "Ordinary" settled folk.
Quite frankly both sets of programmes put the reality of modern Traveller "Culture" into stark perspective for the rest of society,and it does not make for pleasant or entertaining viewing.
Yet,the programmes probably come closer to establishing the reality of modern Traveller life than the sepia toned poverty-stricken,oppressed view put forward to support the charge of mainstream disregard inherent in this Threads heading.Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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You are ignoring the fact that I am not the one looking at a one-sided solution. I have repeatedly referred to the need for a 'stick' method to push traveller parents into acting in a socially responsible manner with respect to enabling their children to participate in society, should these children subsequently wish to do so. I have referred to that from the beginning.Your impeccably politically correct stance (always blame mainstream society while deflecting criticism of the subaltern)...
Nobody has been absolving travellers of responsibility. You're mistaking the explanations as to why parents might not act in a manner that the mainstream would deem responsible as excuses, for no apparent reason but that you think it suits your argument. I am putting traveller parents' decisions in context, not defending them. This includes reference to the cyclical nature in which lack of education can be re-enforced through generations (De Broucker, 1998). Research also suggests that the marginalised have to work harder to take the same decisions as the rich, the latter of whom usually have their mainstream-friendly parenting decisions made for them or enforced by their mainstream contemporaries (Banerjee, Duflo, Poor Economics (2012)). Sampson (1994) corroborates this when he finds that poverty decreases the tendency to make sound parenting decisions. Blau (1999) in The Review of Economics & Statistics finds poor social, cognitive and emotional development less an issue of income per se, rather more a question of family background.
If you've already decided that the education problem has nothing to do with established international trends amongst the marginalised and permanently disadvantaged but, rather, some devious scheme to perpetuate the traveller plot, then you're probably unlikely to be convinced by anything as tedious as academic research.
(i)The Google comment is mind bogglingly irrelevant. I'm not on a mission to save traveller culture. If some people are, bully for them. That's not why I started this thread. I started this thread because I find the apathy shown toward the woeful conditions of travellers worrying.You yourself have acknowledged above that traveller children are "conditioned to adhere to the traditional way of life of their forbears." It's as clear as the day is long that a traditional nomadic way of life oriented around the (now nonexistent) demand for migrant seasonal labor in an agricultural economy is incompatible with achieving high levels of education or working in professional positions. How many Google employees go back home to their campsites at night?
(ii) Your use of the word acknowledge in relation to the social conditioning of traveller children implies the existence of this conditioning is something you agree occurs. Is this the case?
If so, surely you recognize such conditioning cannot be allowed to continue to wreak such deleterious social and health conditions on advancing traveller generations.
That's a complete red herring. How many travellers wish that on their kids? Absolutely impossible to say. You're treating the entire traveller population as one homogenous, brutish bunch of louts.I expect at least some parents to recognize that there is a better life to be found outside the traveller culture than within it, or that they can teach their children to aspire to higher things than being a bare-knuckle boxer or a "King of the Travelers."
We have evidence that travellers are very often poorly educated, in poor health, and experience a great deal of disadvantage. OK.
But that does not give you a logical basis to imply that wishing a life of violence on their children is something that is common among parents in the travelling community. I think that's a really unfortunate, emotive and frankly quite a coarse approach to take to what ought to be a more seriously considered issue.
I cannot think of any other group in Irish society who are as identifiable (therefore open to discrimination and alienation) whilst at the same time so discriminated against and so disadvantaged (perhaps the Roma would be the only example). In fact this is borne out in the ESRI/ EA report cited on the first page.Many people in other disadvantaged communities appear readily able to come to the realization that "I don't want my children to grow up as I did," or "I want my children to go to college and have a better life than this," so why can't travelers come to similar conclusions?
So it would be erroneous to suggest that travellers are starting from the same point on the curve.
Secondly, progress has clearly been made. It just hasn't been enough. There is a noticeably larger traveller participation in education than has materialised in the past. It's nowhere near large enough, because we can all see the dire ESRI statistics. But no, it's certainly not correct to suggest that travellers never change, which is what the above suggestion appears to amount to.
Yes I'm not denying that at all. You're evading the point. A high incidence within the group of undesirable personal and health characteristics does not amount to a basis for your rash generalisation that "It's a life characterized by hard drinking, feuding, illiteracy, antisocial behavior, poor health, and an early grave."If the traveler lifestyle only involved living in a caravan and dealing in horses, that would be one thing. But it involves many other activities that are highly detrimental to health and well-being
You said "The state should strive to replace a culture of idleness and dysfunction with one of work, education, and responsibility.". This is apparently confirmed where you say "I would fully support educational initiatives designed to inform travelers (both parents and children) about the difference that education can make in their lives".I didn't mention anything about a state-sponsored drive.
But elsewhere you say that "as a liberal" you really don't care what travellers do and suggest I'm calling for more money to be wasted or "What if they don't want to adapt to your standards? History suggests that travelers don't like state bureaucrats dictating how they should live" . So there's an awful lot of inconsistency in what you've written in this thread.
If you're expecting me to shirk away from the idea of eventually removing children from their parents, then you're completely mistaken. Just to be completely straight, I would favour a strongly interventionist approach. If parents are not complying with schooling requirements and subsequent penalties or educational supports have no positive effect, then of course the children should be removed from that situation.In other words, you would ultimately advocate taking children away from their parents so as to guarantee them access to educationPersonally, I think it's pretty cynical to argue for the preservation of a culture ... And in the name of what, exactly? What is the benefit to Irish society of preserving this way of life?
You're either completely missing the point or you're building a straw man.Now, can the travelers' advocates on this thread explain how we can address all of the above while preserving travelers' traditional culture?
I think I have seen one poster argue for the preservation of traveller culture. Cultural preservation is generally not something that I would consider any of the state's business either way, but theirs is not a culture I have a problem with either - until it starts to have a detrimental effect on the participative effect on travellers in society. So who exactly are you arguing this with? Who are the travellers' advocates you refer to who want to preserve their culture at all costs?0 -
As the term "Traveller" is essentially an oxymoron it makes the question thus:
"why is it disadvantageous to live a disadvantageous life?"
Which doesn't even merit an answer.
As for why it is not a mainstream concern? Well, when you have a section of society that intentionally isolates itself from mainstream concern and is hostile to mainstream concern, and attempts to construct artificial cultural and racial barriers to bolster such isolation, it is no real wonder.
In fact, the Travellers are only a mainstream concern insofar that they receive public funds - however, the aforementioned cultural and racial constructs are used to make that too much of a hot-potato for the mainstream concern to objectively handle.0 -
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How law abiding and professional woould like, as law abiding and professional as
Bertie
P.Flynn
The 3 youths who kicked a young Polish man to death
John Gilligan
Larry Murphy
Ray Burke
The endless number of Roman catholic Priests who raped and beat children for decades
My point? My point is that there is criminality everywhere , yet you snidley and sneakily infer that be law abiding requires that you give up membership of the traveller community.
BTW Rates of Traveller unemployment are probably no grater than levels of unemployment in many urban areas such as the north inner city of dublin, Moyross in limerick, Moneymore in Drogheda.
Your intolerance borders in my humble opinion on bigotry, just my opinion.
You'd be wrong there I'd imagine. The second leaflet down on that link states that;The 2002 Census highlighted the extent of Travellers unemployment: 73% of Traveller men in comparison with a 9% national average; 64% for Traveller women in comparison to an 8% national average.
And that was 2002. 'Boom time', when jobs were rampant.
Your defence of travellers is utterly vehement. May I ask why? Are you a traveller? Have you lived near travellers? Worked with them? Went to school with them? What is the extent of your contact with travellers?0 -
Just out of curiousity, when you highlighted north inner city of dublin, Moyross in limerick, Moneymore in Drogheda, did you not think that references to unemployment rates amongst people in these areas were what the lividduck was talking about, as opposed to the national average?
As far as I can see, nobody is actually arguing the poor conditions that travellers tend to live in, and the cycle of poverty, lack of education and weak employment. That's sort of the point.0 -
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I'm not so sure travelers are all that poor. There are certainly poorer travelers and richer travelers, as in wider society, but being a traveler does not mean you will automatically be in poverty. Judging from some of the vehicles and wedings they have, travelers are reasonably well off.As far as I can see, nobody is actually arguing the poor conditions that travellers tend to live in, and the cycle of poverty, lack of education and weak employment. That's sort of the point.
Perhaps this begs the question how a society with 73% male unemployment can afford so many extravagant weddings and 4x4s? Something doesn't add up......With 73% male unemployment (and that during the boom), travelers really should generally be very poor, but the trinkets say otherwise.0 -
linkJust out of curiousity, when you highlighted north inner city of dublin, Moyross in limerick, Moneymore in Drogheda, did you not think that references to unemployment rates amongst people in these areas were what the lividduck was talking about, as opposed to the national average?
As far as I can see, nobody is actually arguing the poor conditions that travellers tend to live in, and the cycle of poverty, lack of education and weak employment. That's sort of the point.
The above link, found after a quick google search, states that in 2006 (not too far away from 2002 and still technically 'boom time') moyross had unemployment of 24.6%. Well above the national average yes, but a far cry off 73%.
link for Dublin inner city stats This link again, you won't find a figure as high as 73%. At a cursory glance the highest in dublin seems to be 23.3%
I didn't think people would even need proof that the unemployment in such areas wasn't as high as 73%.0 -
Eh, first of all: this is the internet. Your argument is only as good(bad) as the evidence or logic(baseless arguments) you put forward. I don't expect to endure anyone else's CV and I won't bore them with mine either. This is about logical evidence.This post had been deleted.
That's one question, yes. But you made a baseless suggestion without any evidence, and I challenged it with evidence. If you want to respond and perpetuate the claim that traveller parents are seemingly deliberately avoiding educating their children for the good of their culture, then back it up.What is in question here, however, given that this is the politics forum, not the sociology forum, is what the state should do (if anything) about the plethora of issues afflicting the traveller community.
Not at all. If that were the case no travellers would ever make progress.You can't treat an alcoholic by buying him a drink — but that's a fair analogy to what the state does when it "supports" travelers.
I agree there needs to be welfare reform, but there are lots of different types of support that have been shown to have positive effects elsewhere. I referred earlier to TESS in the UK and provided a reference for that.
If those teachings were correlated with the undesirable effects observed with high frequency amongst travellers like poor health, unemployment, ostracisation, and lack of education, then I would have no hesitation whatsoever in promoting exactly the same action toward those groups.I could just as easily propose that the state should prevent Muslim parents from indoctrinating their children into following the violent teachings, repressive culture, and morally depraved ideology of Islam, or even that Catholic parents should stop brainwashing their children into a morbid culture of self-abasement, self-denial, and guilt. I don't know that you'd be quite so eager to accept those arguments, though.
Statistics please? I hope those are not just anecdotes...I recommend watching the recent Channel 4 documentary Gypsy Blood if you are in doubt that many traveller fathers do indeed inculcate their sons into the violent tradition of bare-knuckle brawling.
I don't inform my opinions on ideological grounds. I have lots of statist opinions on some matters, libertarianesque opinions on others, and so on. I am not some ideology wallah deciphering everything I think according to what that some ideology would have me think. I think it's rather a shame when people lose their independent faculties like that.Yes, you have made your authoritarian statist position abundantly clear by now.0 -
That's a terrible way to judge travellers wealth in fairness. Obviously you're going to notice one traveller who drives a gold mercedes before you notice fifty travellers riding the bus or walking or driving cheap Japanese imports like everyone else.Judging from some of the vehicles and wedings they have, travelers are reasonably well off.
Interestingly, the ESRI report indicated that "25 per cent of Irish Travellers in the younger age group and 22 per cent in the older age group do not have access to a car, compared with figures of 8 and 10 per cent respectively for other white Irish adults".0 -
Since when is the large state void of ideology? You may argue your 'solutions' to various issues are based on cold hard evidence but the authority you claim for the state to act upon such academic solutions is just as steeped in its own exclusive ideology as libertarianism or Marxism. We are all ideologues when it comes to politics; because there is no hard scientific evidence for how people should treat one another.I don't inform my opinions on ideological grounds. I have lots of statist opinions on some matters, libertarianesque opinions on others, and so on. I am not some ideology wallah deciphering everything I think according to what that some ideology would have me think.0 -
My point was that one should try and inform his or her opinions on arguments that appeal to reason, rather than finding some ideological harbour to shelter in and remaining there, barking insults on outsiders and assuming emotional levels of loyalty to that school, or harbour.We are all ideologues when it comes to politics; because there is no hard scientific evidence for how people should treat one another.
If someone wants to call their opinions statist, or socialist or a libertarian or Luxemburg Marxist then so be it. That's perfectly legitimate. What I dislike is the dismissal of whole complex individuals under these categories as though one must, or might, adapt the same ideology on all questions.0 -
Statistics please? I hope those are not just anecdotes...
This always pops up in these threads, one poster in defense of travellers even dismissed all personal stories(I could share a few but won't) as hearsay, and newspapers and TV as hype and propaganda.
I mean how many statistical surveys would or could ask travellers questions like:
1) Do you partake in bare knuckle boxing, or enjoy it as a spectator? If yes how often?
2) Do you mostly settle disputes though violence or through the legal system?
3) How frequent is fighting at christenings, communions, weddings and funerals?
etc etc0 -
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The disadvantaged today are the 'working poor', who are still holding on to largely unfulfilling jobs, or who have been recently unemployed, but who are desperate not to be sitting on the couch at home in another two years.
I don't think the majority of travellers accurately fit your description, OP.0 -
What's the alternative?This post had been deleted.
Trial by Channel 4?
The Lunchtime Commission Into Traveller's Rights Using Anecdotal Data Gathered From Mates and Aquaintances?
If you make observations about a group of people, this observation should be subject to examination. I think that's fair. The curious thing is, hardly anybody here (if anybody) is arguing that travellers often live very dysfunctional lives. That core point is not really in question.
Yep. I guess I am definitely guilty of cultural genocide. Definitely.This post has been deleted.0 -
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With all due respect later12, you are not going to get statistics from an isolationist, defensive, suspicious, tight-knit community (particularly one that has many illegal elements).
Gypsy Blood is highly notable as it was one of the most in depth documentaries conducted within the gypsy community (albeit in a keyhole exploratory manner).
Kim Jong-un of North Korea is rich, North Korea's population is poor, and there is a crazy devotion to the Party within the state. You would accept all of the above, I assume, even though obtaining statistics (or any reliable figures) to prove any of these statements would be nigh on impossible. :pac:0 -
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What's the alternative?
Trial by Channel 4?
The Lunchtime Commission Into Traveller's Rights Using Anecdotal Data Gathered From Mates and Aquaintances?
If you make observations about a group of people, this observation should be subject to examination. I think that's fair. The curious thing is, hardly anybody here (if anybody) is arguing that travellers often live very dysfunctional lives. That core point is not really in question.
It really is baffling that someone would even need to demand statistics to confirm that travellers enjoy bare-knuckle boxing. If bare-knuckle boxing was no more prominent amongst travellers than any other group, there would be no documentaries about it. For example the reason there is no documentary about immigrant Nigerians engaging in bare knuckle boxing is because it is not part of their culture or tradition.0 -
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I agree actually. Traveller surveys are notoriously difficult to execute, apparently.RandomName2 wrote: »With all due respect later12, you are not going to get statistics from an isolationist, defensive, suspicious, tight-knit community (particularly one that has many illegal elements).
Nevertheless, just because the data is lacking on one specific area is not a license to fill its gap with silly anecdotes from a young boy and extrapolate this onto the whole traveller community.
We all have our own experiences of travellers. It's actually quite positive to see that this discussion, with a few exceptions, has not been denigrated with unreliable personal reports, be they good or bad.0 -
When I asked for statistics it was in relation to the points that bare knuckle boxing characterises traveller life and "many traveller fathers do indeed inculcate their sons into the violent tradition of bare-knuckle brawling".It really is baffling that someone would even need to demand statistics to confirm that travellers enjoy bare-knuckle boxing.
I asked for statistics, as in what's the incidence.. what is 'many'?
Of course these statistics don't exist or we wouldn't be resorting to arguments like OMG did you not see that show on Channel 4??!0 -
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Can I try and summarise the differing opinions because it's a simple answer to the OP, I think.
Permabear: disagrees with state supported lifestyles and believes that welfare perpetuates dysfunction and idleness. He is probably right re the welfare trap. He disagrees with a carrot approach.
Later12: isn't actually advocating a carrot approach (throwing money/facilities/programs) by itself. He has mentioned the need for a stick, forcing conformity amongst travellers and introducing some minimum standards.
Now I'd tend to agree with both. Carrot alone exacerbates the disadvantage. So you use a carrot and stick approach - I'd differ from the libertarian reluctance to give state supports because I recognise the hardship and difficulty - in other words I agree with Later12 that the problems are cyclical and the decisions at the bottom are harder.
BUT where I disagree with the OP is that I believe he is being disingenuous about the effect of a carrot and stick approach. It's end effect, if it successfully addressed disadvantage would be the destruction of traveller culture - for the reasons Permabear has repeatedly pointed out. Now if Later12 was more honest about the consequences of his solution then it could be described (by some) as an attack on traveller culture and a statement of racial hate.
Everyone recognises this 'solution' but to utter it is to invite derision - so as people are prevented from offering this solution in an honest way, that is to end traveller problems is to end traveller culture, the silence comes across as lack of concern.0 -
When I asked for statistics it was in relation to the points that bare knuckle boxing characterises traveller life and "many traveller fathers do indeed inculcate their sons into the violent tradition of bare-knuckle brawling".
I asked for statistics, as in what's the incidence.. what is 'many'?
Of course these statistics don't exist or we wouldn't be resorting to arguments like OMG did you not see that show on Channel 4??!
Many could be 20%, could be 50% or whatever depending on the subject. It is not unreasonable to suggest from the fact that there is multiple documentaries covering the subject that many more (or a higher percentage of) travellers encourage this behavior in comparison to other groups.0 -
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