Parliamentary Questions

Sparks · 18-05-2005 2:11pm

Debate on the answer continued:

Mr. J. O’Keeffe: At long last the Minister has stirred himself, even if only by making available funding of €6.5 million to the Garda Síochána. This should be of some help and I wish the force every success with the provision of an additional 15,000 hours in overtime.

Are we clear on the extent of the gun crime problem? The rate of crimes involving guns is unprecedented, with a minimum of one murder a week and robberies of ATMs and cash in transit, with large amounts of moneys being taken out of the system by criminals. The Minister will have the co-operation of all sides of the House on necessary legislation. I suggest, however, he circulates his proposals on making membership of an armed gang a criminal offence. It should be published on a separate basis to the Criminal Justice Bill so that it can be passed quickly by the House. It may be tied up if it is locked into the Criminal Justice Bill as there are many other issues in the Bill that need to be teased out.

Will the Minister also consider introducing legislation on hostage-taking? I appreciate serious penalties exist for false imprisonment. However, to mark our absolute revulsion at hostage-taking, it should be set out as a separate offence. It is all very well to have certain penalties for stealing, but stealing involving hostage-taking must be a separate offence. I urge the Minister to examine this and I assure him he will have co-operation from this side of the House if legislation is introduced. We have legislation dealing with hostage-taking with regard to international crime but not domestic crime. If it is sufficiently important to deal with it internationally, why not take it into account in our domestic legislation?

Regarding resources, the Garda is welcome to the 15,000 hours of overtime, but can the Minister take any further urgent steps to ensure the Garda will have the support it needs on a continuing basis, in terms of manpower and equipment? The Garda operates with equipment to which armed gangs have ready access. There is no encryption or security in their walkie-talkie equipment, which is 20 years out of date. The Garda PULSE computer system also needs to be upgraded. Can we urgently provide the Garda with the necessary resources on a continuing basis?

Could the Minister give an analysis of the situation regarding armed gangs in the country? It is important that the public know. I have heard that there are 17 armed gangs. Is that correct? How many people are involved? I know the Minister cannot name names, certainly not in these circumstances, but would it be important in terms of alerting the public to the situation in full, and giving it more information as to who is involved, their numbers, the extent of the problem and the number of gangs involved? The public should also be told about the weaponry involved. In the past three years, some 1,300 weapons have been stolen, while I do not know how many have been smuggled into the country. The public is concerned, and entitled to the information available. If it had it, the public could be of assistance to the Garda in dealing with the horrendous problem facing us.

My emphasis added here. Does that number (1300 stolen firearms in three years) sound reasonable to people?

Mr. McDowell: I welcome Deputy O’Keeffe’s support for getting on with the core legislative requirements to deal with the problem. Although some of the provisions of the Criminal Justice Bill are controversial, most of the central ones, such as detention, search and scene preservation powers will assist the Garda Síochána in the fight against this kind of crime.

Regarding crime involving organised gangs, the Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women’s Rights has considered the matter and I am moving on Committee Stage to meet that committee’s thought-out proposals.

Hostage-taking is a form of false imprisonment——

Mr. J. O’Keeffe: A gross form.

Mr. McDowell: ——and a very serious offence for which the penalty is life imprisonment. I heard Deputy O’Keeffe on radio discussing whether we should regard hostage-taking as a separate species, so to speak, but we should remember that the penalty for false imprisonment can be life imprisonment. I do not want to speak entirely off the cuff, but perhaps a case can be made for a minimum sentence where a threat is made to the life of an individual. Almost anything, even putting someone in a cupboard, can be false imprisonment, but when someone’s life is threatened for the purpose of committing another felony, there may be a case for a minimum sentence. We could consider that on Committee Stage of the Criminal Justice Bill.

It is true that depending on one’s definition of a gang, there are between 15 and 30 groups of people here who confederate to commit offences. At this stage I do not want to say much about them, but in case the Deputy thinks these figures are conjured up, I have seen spreadsheets with the names of people involved, an elaboration, a map, so to speak, of how these gangs are organised and inter-related. It is not as if the Garda is blundering about with no strategic view of the problems.

Deputy O’Keeffe should note that there is a clear pattern of people who in the past were members of paramilitary bodies, now using for their private ends all the thuggish skills they developed and the mercilessness they exhibited, threatening and killing innocent people, and shooting people in the head. On a number of recent occasions, intelligence briefings have suggested to me that former so-called patriots have now taken to the most appalling thuggery to enrich themselves.

Regarding firearms, the theft of shotguns in particular is a serious matter. One of the proposals among the Committee Stage amendments of the Criminal Justice Bill is to create a mandatory regime for secure custody of firearms in the houses of those who have them for lawful purposes. I will deal with that on Committee Stage.

Sparks · 18-05-2005 2:12pm

continued...

Mr. Costello: I welcome what the Minister said about giving €6.5 million to Operation Anvil, but I remind the Minister that just before Christmas he provided some €4 million to what I believe was Operation Crossover, for the months of November and December. Once the money and overtime hours are gone, the resources are gone and we are back to square one. If I recall correctly, it was in November that the Minister came out with the rather flamboyant expression: “ I don’t believe there is any new energy in crime in Dublin”. That was in November 2004. The Minister said he believed the situation then was “to some extent, the sting of the dying wasp”. Since then, there have been ten or 12 gangland-type killings, so the Minister is clearly out of touch in this matter.

What we are now getting is a belated response by the Minister in an effort to show the public he is doing something about the situation, though he made no effort to prevent any of these killings or to bring the perpetrators to justice. When the €6.5 million is spent, we will be back to square one again. Can the Minister now give us some commitment that we will not merely get a small pool of money for use on a once-off mechanism, with the plan, if there is one, to be then thrown aside once again? Can we have the commitment in resources and personnel on an ongoing basis? The Minister might outline to us how he would provide something of this nature. When a person is shot dead emerging from Mountjoy Prison, in broad daylight, the situation is clearly out of control.

Will the Minister agree that one of the reasons there are so many killings by these hit-men, who are paid by criminal gangsters with access to drugs, and a great deal of money as a result, is that the hit-men are at virtually no risk of detection, prosecution or imprisonment? In the past five years, the detection and prosecution rate has been only 16%, the lowest such rate for all headline offences. If one commits a gangland murder, one is less likely to be punished for that than for any other headline crime one might commit. What will the Minister do about that?

Regarding security firms, is it a fact that we currently have no licence scheme, regulations or standards for any of the security operations here, and that some 26,000 security personnel go merrily about their business while there are no proper standards or vetting procedures in place? Can the Minister give us some idea of when the private security services legislation will be in operation to the extent that it will have some meaning?

With regard to the gun culture, what will the Minister do about the enormous number of weapons that are available in this country? The Minister indicated that some of these are paramilitary weapons, some are smuggled weapons while others are stolen, but having that knowledge is not good enough. What steps will he take to get those weapons out of circulation?

Mr. McDowell: I act in conjunction with the Garda Commissioner in the allocation of funds. Operation Crossover, to which the Deputy referred, was a successful operation. It targeted specific areas on the western side of this city and had a significant effect.

Mr. Costello: Everything is now back to square one.

Mr. McDowell: We are by no means back to square one. There was a significant improvement in the situation arising from Operation Crossover. I attended the opening of a new offenders’ transition home in the Blanchardstown area some days ago and, on that occasion, voluntary groups who are concerned with crime in the Blanchardstown area reported to me that there had been a dramatic improvement in policing in their area, with which they were happy, and that the improvement was being sustained. I congratulate local Garda management for reallocating its resources to produce this greater visibility.

It is true that I believed last year that, as a result of Operation Crossover, the organisations of major players had been broken up and that they were effectively on the run. However, others have stepped into their shoes and the Garda Commissioner has asked me for these extra resources. Deputy Costello would ask why these are not available all the time and would suggest that there should be no particular set of operations but constant overtime and the attendant constant flows of money.

Mr. Costello: I am not saying that, I am saying the opposite.

Mr. McDowell: It is important that when we engage in a certain type of expenditure, we keep it under review to assess whether it has lost its vitality and whether it is yielding dividends.

Mr. Costello: I am seeking ongoing resources.

Mr. McDowell: It would be easy to simply tell the Garda Commissioner that he can have as much money as he wants which can be spent as he wishes, but I cannot do that and I accept the Deputy is not inviting me to do it. I cannot operate on the basis of proclaiming that there is no limit to overtime and that the Garda can do what it wants at any time. If that psychology took hold, we would simply see diminishing returns.

I thank the Opposition Deputies for heeding my call last year to pass the legislation establishing the Private Security Authority of Ireland. The authority is now up and running in Tipperary, its chief executive has been appointed and it is currently putting in place the licensing regime for cash in transit companies. I outlined previously to the House the issues that arose in this area and the 120 day period which I had allowed the banks and cash in transit companies to get their houses in order.

Mr. Costello: Do not give them any time.

Mr. McDowell: I could click my fingers and demand that it be done tomorrow but if it is necessary to buy equipment and to establish new training regimes for the workforce and so forth, time is required. However, I should make clear to the chairmen of the banks, most of whom I know personally and whom I hope will hear my remarks because they keep an eye on what happens in this House, that I am not bluffing about the 120 day period. If they think that on day 119 they can begin to engage in this process, they are greatly mistaken. I urge them to act on this now because I will not hesitate to impose a regime on the banks which will allow me to direct the level of security for which they must pay. This country deserves protection from those who steal large sums of money because it is they who will later take other people’s lives and invest the proceeds in drugs.

Gun Shy · 18-05-2005 3:47pm

Sound familar to anyone remember what happened when Veronica was shot, lots of activity for a few months then budget cutbacks on Garda OT and we end up no better off.

Should be called "Operation Summer Break" instead caus thats what will happen. All the real big players will be heading off for a 3 month vacation to spain and will be back when things cool down.

The undertone of the Ministers statements dont loo ktoo good for us do they.

Sparks · 19-05-2005 5:33pm

Answers to the written questions came out today:

38. Mr. Broughan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of cases of murder in which firearms were used in respect of each year from 1998 and to date; the number of such cases in which prosecutions for murder have been initiated; the number of such cases in which convictions have been secured; if he is satisfied with the level of detection and conviction in such cases; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16114/05]

260. Mr. Costello asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of cases of murder in which firearms where used in respect of each year from 1998 to 2005 to date; the number of such cases in which prosecutions for murder have been initiated; the number of such cases in which convictions have been secured; if he is satisfied with the level of detection and conviction in such cases; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16262/05]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell): I propose to take Questions Nos. 38 and 260 together.

I am informed by the Garda authorities that the following table shows the number of murders in which firearms where used in respect of each year from 1998 to 16 May 2005.

As the Deputy is aware, the Director of Public Prosecutions is statutorily independent in the performance of his function and it would, therefore, be inappropriate for me to comment on his decisions. Furthermore, judges are independent in the exercise of their judicial functions and subject only to the Constitution and the law. It would therefore be inappropriate for me to comment on their decisions also.

Murders involving Firearms 1998 to 16 May 2005
Year Recorded Detected Proceedings Commenced Convictions
1998 4 3 2 1
1999 12 7 7 5
2000 11 6 5 2
2001 9 4 2 2
2002 10 4 4 2
2003 20 8 4 1
*2004 9 6 5 1
*2005 8 1 1 0

*Figures for 2004 and 2005 are operational and liable to change.

I am informed by the Garda authorities that murders involving the use of firearms tend to have lower conviction rates than other murders. This is not unique to Ireland. The number of violent deaths, murder and manslaughter, recorded in 2004 is 45, the lowest number recorded in ten years, despite our population increasing by 400,000 during the same period.

312. Mr. Curran asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if he will examine the merits of introducing a gun amnesty accompanied by more severe penalties including possible mandatory sentencing for the possession and discharging of illegally held firearms. [16484/05]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell): On Committee Stage of the Criminal Justice Bill 2004, I propose to introduce measures to provide that firearms and other offensive weapons may be surrendered to the Garda. I will also be proposing a range of measures to increase sentences for more serious range of firearms offences, including the introduction of mandatory minimum sentences in some cases. My full range of proposals will be announced to the House in the normal way in due course.

314. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if he proposes to take any particular action to address the rapidly escalating problem of gun crime; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16487/05]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell): I refer the Deputy to my replies of today’s date to Parliamentary Questions Nos. 5 and 6.

315. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of fatal shootings that have taken place in the past five years; his plans to address the issue; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16488/05]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell): It has not been possible to compile the information requested in the timeframe allowed. I will arrange for the information to be forwarded directly to the Deputy at the earliest opportunity.

316. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform his proposals to confront those in the criminal underworld who specialise in the supply of firearms for unlawful purposes; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16489/05]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell): On Committee Stage of the Criminal Justice Bill 2004, I propose to introduce measures to provide that firearms and other offensive weapons may be surrendered to the Garda. I will also be proposing a range of measures to increase sentences for more serious range of firearms offences, including the introduction of mandatory minimum sentences in some cases. My full range of proposals will be announced to the House in the normal way in due course.

I am informed by the Garda authorities that the national bureau of criminal investigation has successfully targeted and prosecuted several of gangs involved in this type of criminality and that a number of firearms have been recovered or seized. I also refer the Deputy to my answer to Question No. 6 today.

317. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the action he proposes to take to deal with the situation of the sale, supply and use of illegal firearms in the State; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16490/05]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell): There is a particular overriding necessity to ensure that public safety and security are given priority in any review of policy and legislation for firearms. I have decided to introduce at an early stage, certain proposals for inclusion in the Criminal Justice Bill. The Bill, as published, contains one of those proposals, to provide for the secure custody of firearms. Other provisions will be introduced through amendments on Committee Stage. These will deal with better controls on the type of firearms which may be certified. They will further specify certain additional requirements which will have to be met by applicants for certificates and allow for the imposition of conditions on the granting of a certificate. They will include a provision allowing the deeming by order of firearms which may not be certified.

Sentences for the more serious range of firearms offences will be increased, including the possibility of mandatory minimum sentences in some cases, as well as new offences of illegally modifying a firearm, for example, sawing off a shotgun barrel, and the imposition of severe penalties for this offence. I also refer the Deputy to my reply to today’s Question Nos. 5 and 6.

My emphasis. Is anyone else thinking "uh-oh", either at what he said, or at the response to a question on illegal firearms being a suggestion of further restrictions on legal ones?

324. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of armed robberies reported in County Kildare in the past five years; if the perpetrators have been convicted; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16497/05]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell): It has not been possible to compile the information requested in the timeframe allowed. I will arrange for the information to be forwarded directly to the Deputy at the earliest opportunity.

jaycee · 19-05-2005 5:53pm

Is anyone else thinking "uh-oh",

Well ..me for one .!

If there was a little bit more of all this "Openess and transparency " we keep hearing about , I would be a lot less nervous. It isn't impossible to imagine a steamroller that may very well roll over our toes before we even get the opportunity to shout STOP..!

It's very difficult to have a meaningful dialogue ..if we aren't told what proposals are being considered ... And I have to wonder why ..

allnight_2002 · 19-05-2005 8:45pm

317. Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the action he proposes to take to deal with the situation of the sale, supply and use of illegal firearms in the State; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16490/05]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell): There is a particular overriding necessity to ensure that public safety and security are given priority in any review of policy and legislation for firearms. I have decided to introduce at an early stage, certain proposals for inclusion in the Criminal Justice Bill. The Bill, as published, contains one of those proposals, to provide for the secure custody of firearms. Other provisions will be introduced through amendments on Committee Stage. These will deal with better controls on the type of firearms which may be certified. They will further specify certain additional requirements which will have to be met by applicants for certificates and allow for the imposition of conditions on the granting of a certificate. They will include a provision allowing the deeming by order of firearms which may not be certified.
Sentences for the more serious range of firearms offences will be increased, including the possibility of mandatory minimum sentences in some cases, as well as new offences of illegally modifying a firearm, for example, sawing off a shotgun barrel, and the imposition of severe penalties for this offence. I also refer the Deputy to my reply to today’s Question Nos. 5 and 6.

This is some thing I am worried about. Especial as the question was about the sale and supply of illegal firearms. Yet the ministers answer applied to imposing restrictions on legally held firearms. Yet again it is we, the law abiding citizens of the shooting community that are being made to jump through hoops to met all of these conditions on the granting of a firearms certificate. Yet none of us have been asked as to what measures we believe would best serve all involved. I personally have no problems with secure storage of firearms but what is secure storage. Will a gun safe suffice, do we all need monitored alarms just what would be considered secure storage. Do we need more security measures in our homes the more guns we try to license. There is only so much any one of us can do to prevent the theft of firearms. I am sure that no one here wants to see one of their guns stolen. But how many legal held firearms end up been used in illegal activity.

Sparks · 19-05-2005 10:05pm

But how many legal held firearms end up been used in illegal activity.

We actually asked that a while ago, it's on the second page in this thread. The answer was:

A breakdown of the offences by reference to whether or not the weapon used was legally held is not readily available and could only be obtained by a disproportionate expenditure of Garda time and resources.

allnight_2002 · 19-05-2005 11:57pm

Sparks wrote:

A breakdown of the offences by reference to whether or not the weapon used was legally held is not readily available and could only be obtained by a disproportionate expenditure of Garda time and resources:

I had see this quote earlier in the thread but was hoping that since them they may have managed to get some figure to try and justify there attitude to us shooters.

civdef · 20-05-2005 12:16am

Of course the question now arises, what firearms are going to be banned via ministerial order?

ANyone heard lately what way things are leaning?

Sparks · 13-06-2005 11:27pm

An interesting one tomorrow:

*577. To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if action will be taken against a web site (details supplied) which facilitates the shooting of live animals via the internet; and if he will make a statement on the matter. Tony Gregory. [19029/05]

jaycee · 13-06-2005 11:48pm

Yes ..sensible question .!

A teeny bit beyond the control of the minister I would have thought .. :rolleyes:

Or perhaps there should be a restriction on all computers with a processor larger than .22 Megahertz

Then they would be too slow and the quarry would escape, On the other hand we wouldn't be able to watch streamed coverage of Dáil debates...

Flattop 15 · 14-06-2005 12:41am

WEll!! All I can say is glad that is the ONLY problem for Mr Greghory TD in his constituency.No matter that the country is running out of control,the health services are a disaster,our old folk are treated like dirt in private and state old folks homes.Yobs,criminals and other scumbuckets make a mockery of law and order,and God alone knows what other ills befall us tax payers,and this I$%^Tis off moaning about a website that he and the Govt have NO control over.Or ever will for that matter.Last time he wasted private member time about fur farming,when anyone could have being grilling the govt about our overcrowded hospitals.But no foxy woxy and other bad temperd vermin s "rights"have to be discussed.Makes my blood boil that such muppets are actually voted in and then concern themselves on daft issues when there are more vitally important things to concern them. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Wonder could we have a poll on who in the Dail and Senad are pro shooting/gun ownership/fieldsports?

jaycee · 14-06-2005 12:46am

Wonder could we have a poll on who in the Dail and Senad are pro shooting/gun ownership/fieldsports?

Would anyone know..?

Would anyone be willing to stick their heads up ... very few I'm afraid.

Sparks · 14-06-2005 8:55am

Thing is, flattop, a lot of the time these questions don't come from the TD that puts them forward, but from someone else. My guess is this comes from ICABS or a similar grouping, rather than the TD.

Flattop 15 · 14-06-2005 12:31pm

You got that in one Sparks. It is an ICABS issue,as last saturday week the Indo had an article with Aideen Yourell bemaoning the existance of such sites.Intrestingly enough Des Crofton was asked his views on it as well,and for once both pro and anti hunting lobbies agreed on one thing.That these facilities should not exist.But then intrestingly enough Mr Greghory is asking questions on it in the Dail two weeks later.Lets face it he has been their single issue spokesman in the Dail since year dot!Wouldnt it be nice if WE the shooting lobby could have such a spokesperson as well.

Jaycee,Well,the other lot seem to canvass the whole political spectrum on the fieldsports issues.Some support them some dont. Cant see why we shouldnt do the same as well.At least we would have a good idea who is with us and who is against us.

Sparks · 14-06-2005 2:31pm

Wouldnt it be nice if WE the shooting lobby could have such a spokesperson as well.

Nope, it'd be nice if we had a group of spokespeople from various different parties

And we've had our fair share of questions asked in the Dail over the months and years, y'know.

At least we would have a good idea who is with us and who is against us.

But some support some kinds of shooting and not others. Olympic shooting, for example, is pretty much universally given at least tacit support (photo opportunities with olympic medal winners being a valuable commodity, and the image of the sport being particularly safe and harmless from that side of things); various other disciplines enjoy similar levels of support; but some disciplines find it tougher going. Things like airsofting are pretty much out in the cold. So saying who's with us and who's against us is a bit of a first-order approximation (not to mention a bit discontinous - many TDs are going to be undecided because they won't know the first thing about the sport).

Flattop 15 · 14-06-2005 8:47pm

Sparks wrote:

Nope, it'd be nice if we had a group of spokespeople from various different parties
And we've had our fair share of questions asked in the Dail over the months and years, y'know.

It would indeed,but I would settle for one consistent TD with a good general knowledge of shooting and hunting,than a bunch of specialists who pipe up only when their respective field is affected.

But some support some kinds of shooting and not others. Olympic shooting, for example, is pretty much universally given at least tacit support (photo opportunities with olympic medal winners being a valuable commodity, and the image of the sport being particularly safe and harmless from that side of things);

Hmm,I dont recall very many pics of smiling and smirking TDs with any of our Olympic,or any other shooting teams in the recent past.Correct me if I am wrong,but I cant EVER remember a pic in the national press of any of our shooters,apart from last year our clay shooting champ,but he was delagated small coloum inches.

Things like airsofting are pretty much out in the cold.

With due respects to our airsoft brethern,but is this actually a sport???As anywhere else in the world airsofts are actually classified as toys.It is in the same leauge as paintball,send two teams against each other with the idea of "killing"each other.Or you collect plastic guns that fire plastic bbs because you cant get the real thing in live or deact.I cant see any TD wanting to be associated with it.

So saying who's with us and who's against us is a bit of a first-order approximation (not to mention a bit discontinous - many TDs are going to be undecided because they won't know the first thing about the sport).

Why?There is enough of them who have never hunted a fox or shot anything ,or coursed ,but are capable of bleating on about the "cruelty" of it as if they were experianced ex fieldsports people.So it doesn't stop them supporting somthing that they have only got one side of.It just happens to be a "hip" vote catcher for a vocal minority.Dont see why we cant use the same tactic as well.

Sparks · 14-06-2005 9:11pm

Flattop 15 wrote:

It would indeed,but I would settle for one consistent TD with a good general knowledge of shooting and hunting,than a bunch of specialists who pipe up only when their respective field is affected.

Nope. One TD is not better than several. I'll take a dozen TDs who need to be briefed over one who shoots any day of the week and twice on wednesdays.

Hmm,I dont recall very many pics of smiling and smirking TDs with any of our Olympic,or any other shooting teams in the recent past.Correct me if I am wrong,but I cant EVER remember a pic in the national press of any of our shooters,apart from last year our clay shooting champ,but he was delagated small coloum inches.

Nope. The Irish Times hasn't done much for us (still an area to be tackled, and not with the BFI approach), but others have. Here's a gallery of some of the stuff from the last few years:
http://www.targetshootingireland.org/Photos/thumbnails.php?album=7

With due respects to our airsoft brethern,but is this actually a sport?

So much for the unified front in lobbying, eh?

I cant see any TD wanting to be associated with it.

And I can't see any supporting practical pistol at a time where gun crime is in the news every other day. Yes, they're wholly different if you know about shooting. If you're a TD, well, they shoot at people with sidearms and we shoot at people-shaped targets with sidearms.

It just happens to be a "hip" vote catcher for a vocal minority.Dont see why we cant use the same tactic as well.

No reason at all - if we present our best facet. But you say that in public and you can be assured that there will be rumblings in the pub after matches about how the NTSA is out to screw over other shooters and so on. Frankly, it's beginning to annoy me.

Flattop 15 · 15-06-2005 12:47pm

[

QUOTE=Sparks]Nope. One TD is not better than several. I'll take a dozen TDs who need to be briefed over one who shoots any day of the week and twice on wednesdays.

Er reality is we dont even KNOW ONE totally progun TD,not to mind a bunch who would be sympatheticto be breifed.So could we poll them please to find out who is pro and sympathetic?

Nope. The Irish Times hasn't done much for us (still an area to be tackled, and not with the BFI approach), but others have. Here's a gallery of some of the stuff from the last few years:
http://www.targetshootingireland.org/Photos/thumbnails.php?album=7

Ok.I stand corrected on that one.Great pity tho that the other disiplines get no mention or have a revelant board appropiate to the disiplines to post their press cutings.

And I can't see any supporting practical pistol at a time where gun crime is in the news every other day. Yes, they're wholly different if you know about shooting. If you're a TD, well, they shoot at people with sidearms and we shoot at people-shaped targets with sidearms.

Well, lets put it like this.Practical pistol requires liscensed firearms with the revelant to that country backround checks in whatever country it is practised in.It also has a governing body,it is recognised internationally,and accepted by most police forces and protection personel as what is called "unrealistic scenarios" regarding LEO training etc.[EG you dont start in a real life gunfight with your hands above your head.]
Airsoft OTOH in any country except the paranoid isles we reside on,requires no liscense or backround checks,has no disipline as such attracts more of a fair share of nutters in cammo and weekend warriors,has got more than a bad share of publicity than practical pistol EVER will.Has been used in the UK and the continent by extremist rightwing groups for firearms training and tactics,and has more of a potential for giving shooting sports in general a worse name than all others combined.
Ditto for paintball,despite the attempt to make it more hip&trendy by going to day glo outfits and trying to make it a corporate event,it boils down to one thing shooting at live fellow humans.Not to mind the militristic set ups ,equipment and garb that they affect here as well.I have never seen or heard of an accidental discharge of live firearms in a safe area.But in two paintball matches I was shot accidentlly by morons,once in the back of the head at 12ins,another in the jaw from across the room[pre full face mask times] I shuddr to think if that had been live ammo!!! In practical pistol the targets dont even look human anymore.the only other people that use the "mr Turkey targets" [Human 3d targets showing ,vital organs,bone structure and outside are police forces and these are the closest to live human targets there are.] I dont know about you ,but I wouldnt want to be associated with a bunch like this.And if any TD could /would be informed about this and comprehend it.I doubt they would want to represent them either and would be more willing to stand for somthing more organised and disiplined.

No reason at all - if we present our best facet. But you say that in public and you can be assured that there will be rumblings in the pub after matches about how the NTSA is out to screw over other shooters and so on. Frankly, it's beginning to annoy me.

[/QUOTE]

Ah yes,begrugry raises it's head again.Maybe the attitude anymore should be."well while you lot were sitting on your arses moaning about things,somone got up and did somthing about the situation.If you dont like it go thou you and do likewise."Amazing how that can get people moving.

Sparks · 15-06-2005 1:20pm

Flattop 15 wrote:

Er reality is we dont even KNOW ONE totally progun TD,not to mind a bunch who would be sympatheticto be breifed.So could we poll them please to find out who is pro and sympathetic?

Sounds like a good idea to me.

Ok.I stand corrected on that one.Great pity tho that the other disiplines get no mention

The NTSA's PRO's job is to publicise the NTSA. Which doesn't mean that it's a case of "feck off the rest of ye" - I certainly helped the NSAI when asked to do so. But we were told to feck off ourselves, mind.

or have a revelant board appropiate to the disiplines to post their press cutings.

Nothing's stopping them setting one up, that site only costs 70-odd quid a year and it's just from a standard commercial provider. There are other sites (the NRPAI one, for example, is free). As to the skill needed, if a sport can't find a 19-year-old kid amongst its members to draft, it's got bigger problems than publicity!

And most of the disciplines have their own sites - the NASRC, NSA, IPSA, ICPSA, NARGC and so on - it's just that few of them update them. Which is down to them.

Well, lets put it like this.<snip>
Airsoft OTOH in any country except the paranoid isles we reside on,requires no liscense or backround checks,has no disipline as such attracts more of a fair share of nutters in cammo and weekend warriors,has got more than a bad share of publicity than practical pistol EVER will.Has been used in the UK and the continent by extremist rightwing groups for firearms training and tactics,and has more of a potential for giving shooting sports in general a worse name than all others combined.
Ditto for paintball,despite the attempt to make it more hip&trendy by going to day glo outfits and trying to make it a corporate event,it boils down to one thing shooting at live fellow humans.Not to mind the militristic set ups ,equipment and garb that they affect here as well.

And I know a lot of ISSF and Sporting shooters who'd say precisely the same thing about Practical Pistol disciplines, in the same words. You get my point? As inclusive, as "all stand together" as you want to be, few ever actually want to take that stance on with all that's entailed, and usually with well-thought out reasons for it.

And if any TD could /would be informed about this and comprehend it.I doubt they would want to represent them either and would be more willing to stand for somthing more organised and disiplined.

Which is why I keep saying that we should be putting our best facet forward. But I'll bet you, even now, someone's reading this and thinking "bloody NTSA shooters, always thinking they're better than anyone else, they just want to run the whole show, damn eejits, hate those guys". :rolleyes:

Flattop 15 · 15-06-2005 10:33pm

Sparks wrote:

Sounds like a good idea to me.

And I know a lot of ISSF and Sporting shooters who'd say precisely the same thing about Practical Pistol disciplines, in the same words. You get my point? As inclusive, as "all stand together" as you want to be, few ever actually want to take that stance on with all that's entailed, and usually with well-thought out reasons for it.

I get your point allright.But all I am saying is do we classify airsoft /paintball as real firearms?And I mean this on an international basis,AFIK Ireland is the only country here that requires a liscense for these.So we would be the exception rather than the rule.
To the rest of the world these are TOYS!
If they want to include themselves,well then they have to clean up their act.The practical shooting sports had to do this years ago,and also are still VERY image concious.
As for people derideing it and never doing it or have done it,Well..you cant account for ignorance.I have never shot 10meter air rifle, no intrest in it,but I am not going to deride it,and I will do my utmost to defend it as I will all shooting.But for the love of me I just cant defend airsoft or paintball.As I consider the "heads" in it,and those I have met playing it as too dangerous in outlook and actions to be entrusted with a feather duster,not to mind a "firearm".As well as that when I grew up an airgun was a serious precursor to learn the basics of safe firearm handling.Plus maybe it has somthing to due with the total idiocy some people play around with these,just because they dont fire "real"bullets everyone thinks they are harmless and all guns will be the same.

Sparks · 16-06-2005 9:23am

Another interesting question or two up today:

10. To ask the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism if he has received the Irish Sports Council’s assessment of the conclusions to its consideration of the review of Ireland’s performance at the Athens Olympics; if an operational plan has been developed; and if he will make a statement on the matter. — Sea´n Ryan. [20282/05]

32. To ask the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism the amount allocated by his Department in National Lottery funding for 2005; if he will transfer responsibility for the allocation of this funding to an independent authority; and if he will make a statement on the matter. — Denis Naughten. [20213/05]

41. To ask the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism if a national audit of sports facilities has been completed; and if he will make a statement on the matter. — Damien English. [20227/05]

Sparks · 18-06-2005 6:51pm

And some of the answers:

577. Mr. Gregory asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if action will be taken against a website (details supplied) which facilitates the shooting of live animals via the Internet; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19029/05]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell): The Internet is an international phenomenon. It has no borders and no single organisation controls it. Access is easy, and regulation is difficult in view of the many jurisdictions, differences between legal systems, and variations in societal norms in different countries.

A distinction must also be made between what is illegal and what would be regarded as harmful and undesirable but not necessarily illegal. As a general rule of thumb, in Ireland, as in most jurisdictions, what is deemed to be legal off-line is legal on-line; conversely, what is illegal off-line is also illegal on-line. Difficulties arise when what is illegal in one country is not illegal in another.

With Internet operations, the Internet service provider may not be within the jurisdiction and may be providing a service which may be legal where the service is being hosted, but illegal where the service is being accessed. This is not an unusual phenomenon in Internet services and there are enormous logistical as well as legal difficulties involved in attempting to deal with such situations or in enforcing the law at user level. Attempts to fix liability at Internet service provider level are also fraught with difficulties.

Hunting of wild animals in Ireland, while controlled in some respects, is not illegal. The shooting of vermin, such as foxes, is generally permitted and even exempted wild animals, such as deer, and protected wild birds, is permitted at certain periods during the year where licensed under the Wildlife Act 1976. In the case of the activity referred to by the Deputy, regulation of hunting is a matter for the US authorities in the first instance, and although many people would regard such a website as reprehensible, there is no evidence that the activity is illegal in the United States.

Sparks · 18-06-2005 6:53pm

An interesting point here for the College rifle clubs...

23. Mr. Neville asked the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism if his Department liaises with the Department of Education and Science to advise on the provision and expansion of sporting facilities in national and secondary schools; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20210/05]

Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. O’Donoghue): The national lottery-funded sports capital programme, which is administered by my Department, allocates funding for sporting and recreational facilities and equipment. While responsibility for the provision of facilities in national and secondary schools rests with the Department of Education and Science, applications from schools and colleges may be considered under the programme in certain circumstances. Such applications must be made jointly with local sports clubs or community groups and must: provide for significant levels of usage by the local community during periods when the facilities are not being used by the school itself - at least 30 hours per week throughout the year; and demonstrate that the facilities concerned will meet an identified deficiency in that locality, as formally agreed with other local groups and-or the local authority.

In this regard, it has been the practice of my officials to engage in discussions with the Department of Education and Science when considering applications involving schools received under the sports capital programme. Under the 2004 sports capital programme, grants totalling €1.327 million were allocated to ten such projects where the proposed facilities were to be clearly shared between schools and other community groups, including local basketball, GAA and soccer clubs.

Applications for funding under the 2005 programme were invited through advertisements in the press on 5 and 6 December last. The closing date for receipt of applications was 4 February 2005. All of the 1,362 applications received before that deadline, including 30 related to facilities in primary and secondary schools, are currently being evaluated against the programme’s assessment criteria, which are outlined in the guidelines, terms and conditions of the programme. I intend to announce the grant allocations for the programme at an early date.

The programme for Government includes a commitment to putting in place a long-term strategic plan to ensure the development of local sports facilities throughout the country. I wish to advise the Deputy that an inter-agency steering group has been established to oversee the development of such a strategy and is commencing its work. The group is comprised of representatives from my Department along with officials from the Departments of Education and Science, Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and Finance, in addition to representatives of the Irish Sports Council, Campus Stadium Ireland Development Limited and the County and City Managers’ Association.

One of the issues likely to be considered by this group will be potential for greater co-operation between the Departments to ensure that the resources from all sources available to facility provision are maximised, including optimum usage of existing sports facilities by local communities and, in particular, those located in schools.

Sparks · 18-06-2005 6:58pm

And one of interest to the Olympic shooting groups:

10. Mr. S. Ryan asked the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism if he has received the Irish Sports Council’s assessment of the conclusions to its consideration of the review of Ireland’s performance at the Athens Olympics; if an operational plan has been developed; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20282/05]

Mr. O’Donoghue: In July 2004, the Irish Sports Council, in conjunction with the Olympic Council of Ireland and the Paralympic Council of Ireland, commissioned the Athens review to produce an objective assessment of the preparation and performance of the Irish Teams at the Olympic and Paralympic Games in Athens 2004. The review was to identify the strengths and weaknesses of all aspects of the programmes and structures over the course of the four-year cycle leading into the Athens games with a view to making recommendations for the development of programmes for the 2008 Beijing Olympic and Paralympic Games. The final report, which was published on 2 March 2005, draws on the lessons of the past four years and on international experience to set out how we can achieve consistent success at Olympic and Paralympic Games.

The Irish Sports Council has completed its assessment of the conclusions and recommendations of the Athens review and has prepared its operational plan, which addresses key performance indicators, timescales and costings and identifies the roles of the various agencies, as it supports Ireland’s Olympic and Paralympic preparations for Beijing.

I have just received the council’s detailed proposals and my Department is undertaking its consideration of the operational plan. The plan encompasses elements such as the introduction of targeted sport performance plans, including prioritising junior, development and elite athletes; a review of the international carding scheme; proposals for the development of an Irish institute of sport; maintaining and enhancing the role of the Olympic and Paralympic performance committees to ensure optimum co-operation in the preparation and performance of the Irish team for the Beijing Olympic Games; and the strengthening of the Olympic Council of Ireland’s administrative capacities.

I will ensure that the details of the plan are given immediate attention in my Department, including any associated funding implications. I will then be in touch with the Sports Council at the earliest possible date to help ensure that appropriate, effective interventions will underpin Ireland’s preparations for Beijing and beyond.

Mr. O’Shea: I welcome that the detailed proposals from the Irish Sports Council’s assessments of the conclusions and recommendations of the Athens review are with the Minister. Does he intend to publish the report? On the Minister’s reply to a similar question on 10 May 2005, what does he consider a reasonable timescale to achieve a major benefit from improved and sustained investment, focused on the most talented athletes? Will he expand on his statement of 10 May 2005 that there must be a focus on junior and developing athletes? What discussions, if any, has he had with the Minister for Education and Science in this regard?

Mr. O’Donoghue: There is no difficulty in publishing the report. The development of high performance athletes requires a long-term approach. There is no point in believing it can be done overnight. Research indicates it takes ten years of training to develop an elite athlete. It must be remembered that the Irish Sports Council’s high performance strategy was only published in 2002. Our strategy is a long-term one. I do not want this misinterpreted, as it was before, to mean that Ireland will not win an Olympic medal for the next 16 years. If we are to make a meaningful input into the development of our sportsmen and women, it will take time.

The timescale involved is at least ten years. If we are to have success across a range of disciplines on a consistent basis, we need to implement the high performance athletes strategy. This includes the international carding scheme and enhancement programmes. I hope we will see further developments on an infrastructural level, in particular in the sports medicine context. The strategy being pursued is the correct one and will yield results. In the interim, we may have success of a more sporadic nature. However, the plan in place is a good one.

For example, New Zealand, a country of a similar size to Ireland, embarked on a strategy 20 years ago to ensure that it had a good yield at major international sporting events such as the Olympics. It has happened on a consistent basis for New Zealand since then. I aim to ensure that Ireland does the same. Whoever succeeds me in this position will seek to do likewise.

Mr. Deenihan: There are three years to go to the Beijing games. It is important that the strategy and the various recommendations be put in place as soon as possible. What is the Minister’s view on the creation of an institute of sport, as has been recommended in all the reports?

Mr. O’Donoghue: I strongly favour the introduction of an institute of sport. The difficulty, like everything else, is to secure funding for such a project. I am a strong supporter of the Abbotstown campus project. I want to see a necklace of sporting centres, such as the aquatic centre, and that we have an adequate campus facility.

Sparks · 18-06-2005 6:58pm

Another interesting one for the Olympic bodies...

28. Mr. Boyle asked the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism the reason for the delay in appointing a steering group to oversee the commencement of a national audit of sports facilities. [20254/05]

41. Mr. English asked the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism if a national audit of sports facilities has been completed; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20227/05]

Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. O’Donoghue):I propose to take Questions Nos. 28 and 41 together.

The agreed programme for Government contains a commitment to complete a national audit of local sports facilities and to put in place a long-term strategic plan to ensure the development of such necessary facilities throughout the country.

I wish to advise the Deputies that an inter-agency steering group has been established to oversee the development of such a strategy and is commencing its work. The group is comprised of representatives from my Department along with officials from the Departments of Education and Science, Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and Finance, in addition to representatives of the Irish Sports Council, Campus Stadium Ireland Development Limited and the County and City Managers Association. One of the first challenges facing the group is to oversee the commencement of a national audit of sports facilities.

Before commencing work on the strategic plan an assessment of what has been achieved under the Department’s sports capital programme was undertaken. This was done in the context of an Expenditure review of the programme which seeks to assess the benefits that the investment has yielded to date and to identify any difficulties or inefficiencies associated with the operation of the programme. This review has taken longer than expected to complete due to the scale of the programme and the time required to analyse the volume of information and data that was collected during the review.

Sparks · 18-06-2005 6:59pm

And one for every single club in the country, this:

32. Mr. Naughten asked the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism the amount allocated by his Department in national lottery funding for 2005; if he will transfer responsibility for the allocation of this funding to an independent authority; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20213/05]

Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. O’Donoghue): The national lottery-funded sports capital programme, which is administered by my Department, allocates funding to sporting and community organisations at local, regional and national level throughout the country. The programme is advertised on an annual basis. Applications for funding under the 2005 programme were invited through advertisements in the press on 5 and 6 December 2004. The closing date for receipt of applications was 4 February 2005. The 1,362 applications received are currently being evaluated against the programme’s assessment criteria, which are outlined in the guidelines, terms and conditions of the programme. I intend to announce the grant allocations for the 2005 programme as soon as possible after the assessment process has been completed.

I have no plans to transfer responsibility for the allocation of sports capital funding to an independent authority. The current arrangements for administering the sports capital programme, which have been applied by successive governments over many years, have been extremely successful in ensuring that the programme is responsive to local needs.

It is entirely appropriate that the Minister for sport should be in a position to use this important instrument of sporting policy to achieve objectives such as supporting projects of particular local or regional significance or encouraging the development of as many sports as possible. From 1998 to 2004 a total of €331.55 million has been allocated to 4,273 sports capital projects. This massive investment in the creation of a sporting infrastructure is now yielding benefits both in terms of local community developments and increased participation in sport. The scheme is administered in accordance with pre-determined eligibility criteria, all of which must be satisfied before projects may access funding allocated to them.

I would remind the Deputy that as Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, I am directly accountable to Dáil Éireann for the operation of the sports capital programme. This accountability is ongoing and finds expression, for example, through parliamentary questions, Adjournment debates, Estimates debates and engagement with Dáil committees. This is a feature which would be notably absent were the administration of the sports capital programme to be made the responsibility of an independent board. Apart from the obvious issue of how one determines ’independence’, experience elsewhere has shown that decisions by independent boards do not always receive universal acceptance. Where a grant scheme attracts a level of applications well in excess of available funding, as is the case with the sports capital programme, unsuccessful applicants will always experience an understandable sense of disappointment whatever the decision-making process.

Sparks · 23-06-2005 1:26pm

One from tuesday pertaining to the Firearms amendments in the CJB, though nothing prompted by any of us!

510. Mr. J. O’Keeffe asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform his views on whether membership of armed gangs should be made a criminal offence; his proposals in this regard, setting out the proposed legislative basis for same. [21311/05]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell): The Deputy is aware that I published last July the Criminal Justice Bill 2004, which is on Second Stage in the House. As I have indicated previously, I am considering the introduction of a number of amendments to the Bill, including provision for criminal offences relating to organised crime. I am examining the issue in the context of giving effect in Irish law to the European Union Joint Action on Participation in a Criminal Organisation of 1998 and the UN Convention on Transnational Organised Crime of 2000. I intend to bring my proposals to the Government to seek approval to draft in the near future.

Sparks · 23-06-2005 3:15pm

The Minister was up for questions in the Dail today, so a shower of firearms-related questions were asked, though most were to do with gun crime rather than target shooting:

2. To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of murders in which firearms were used so far in 2005; the way in which this compares with the same period for 2004; the progress made to date with regard to Operation Anvil, announced by him on 17 May 2005; his views on the number of weapons seized to date; the number of arrests made; the number of charges preferred, arising so far from the Operation; the length of time the operation is intended to continue; and if he will make a statement on the matter. — Joe Costello. [21641/05]

33. To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform his proposals for a gun amnesty; when it is likely to begin; the duration of the amnesty; the type of weapons it will cover; if any conditions will be attached; and if he will make a statement on the matter. — Michael D. Higgins. [21447/05]

38. To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of cases of murder in which firearms were used in respect of each year from 1998 to date and to date in 2005; the number of such cases in which prosecutions for murder were initiated; the number of such cases in which convictions were secured; if he has satisfied himself with the level of detection and conviction in such cases; and if he will make a statement on the matter. — Eamon Gilmore. [21443/05]

And there were written questions as well:

*164. To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of cases of murder in which firearms were used in respect of each year from 1998 and to date in 2005; the number of such cases in which prosecutions for murder were initiated; the number of such cases in which convictions were secured; if he has satisfied himself with the level of detection and conviction in such cases; and if he will make a statement on the matter. — Joe Costello. [21644/05]

This one's of interest because if a refugee qualifies for legal aid for judicial reviews in the High Court, so should we...

*182. To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if asylum-seekers who apply for a judicial review of their case, having failed at all previous stages of their application for residence here are entitled to free legal aid; and if he will make a statement on the matter. — Paudge Connolly. [21736/05]

*200. To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of reported gun crimes including killings in each of the past three years; the extent to which successful prosecutions have followed; and if he will make a statement on the matter. — Bernard J. Durkan. [21795/05]

*201. To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the amount of cash stolen in robberies since the beginning of 2005; the amount recovered to date; the extent of the number of successful prosecutions arising therefrom; and if he will make a statement on the matter. — Bernard J. Durkan. [21796/05]

*205. To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of gun associated robberies reported in County Kildare in each of the past five years; if successful prosecutions have been taken in each case; and if he will make a statement on the matter. — Bernard J. Durkan. [21800/05]

Sparks · 24-06-2005 10:15am

The written questions haven't been answered yet, but some of the minutes are already up:

2. Mr. Costello asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of murders in which firearms were used thus far in 2005; the way in which this compares with the same period for 2004; the progress made to date with regard to Operation Anvil announced by him on 17 May 2005; his views on the number of weapons seized to date; the number of arrests made; the number of charges preferred which have arisen thus far from the operation; the length of time the operation is intended to continue; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [21641/05]

Mr. McDowell: I am informed by the Garda authorities that from 1 January 2004 to 13 June 2004, six murders were recorded as being committed using a firearm. In the period from 1 January to 22 June 2005, nine murders were recorded as being committed using a firearm.
While I have repeatedly urged caution in the interpretation of statistics, particularly statistics covering comparatively short periods of time, it is worth noting that, of the nine murders involving firearms this year, one occurred in March, five in April, three in May and none in June to date. With one exception, the murders were committed in the Dublin area. I am satisfied that Operation Anvil is making a significant contribution to securing a reduction in this type of offence. I commend the Commissioner and the members of an Garda Síochána for the efficient and effective use of the resources made available to them.
Operation Anvil was initiated by the Garda Commissioner on 16 May. I provided details in respect of it to the House on 17 May. Its main focus is targeting active criminals and their associates involved in serious crime by preventing and disrupting criminal activity. It involves overt patrolling and static checkpoints by uniform mobile and foot patrols, supported by armed plain clothes patrols. In addition, intelligence led covert operations are undertaken, as are searches and continued gathering and collation of high quality criminal intelligence.
I am informed by the Garda authorities that, since its inception, there have been 377 arrests and 76 firearms recovered. It is not possible to provide details pertaining to the number of charges preferred as a number of investigations, in respect of which investigation files will be submitted to the law officers for direction in due course, are ongoing.
As the Deputy is aware, the Criminal Justice Bill 2004, which is on Second Stage in the House, provides for a comprehensive package of anti-crime measures that will enhance the capacity of the Garda to investigate and prosecute offences. In that context, I will bring forward, on Committee Stage, a series of measures to increase sentences for the more serious range of firearm offences, including a mandatory minimum sentence in some cases. I will also introduce a new offence of illegally making a sawn-off shotgun.
I am informed by the Garda authorities that murders involving the use of firearms tend, for obvious reasons, to have lower conviction rates than other murders. This is not unique to Ireland; it is a pattern across the world. However, the number of violent deaths, both murder and manslaughter, recorded in 2004 was 45, the lowest number in ten years, despite the fact our population increased by 400,000 during that ten-year period.
Mr. Costello: Does the Minister agree that there have already been as many if not more deaths as a result of gangland killings in the first half of this year as occurred in nine of the past ten years? Does he consider that even with Operation Crossover, which was established in November 2004 and which lasted a few months, the situation for the first six months of this year is worse than that which obtained in any other year? It seems that once the blip of intensified Garda activity ended, the situation not only reverted to its previous state but appeared to get worse. Does the Minister agree that the €6.5 million being spent on Operation Anvil will end up having the same effect as the €4 million on Operation Crossover? Paying overtime is not the way to deal with gangland activity. What is required is a concerted plan, involving year-round effort, in order to achieve results.
Does the Minister agree that gangland killings are effectively the worst type of crime and attract the lowest detection rate? A hitman is almost assured that the last thing that will happen is that he will be detected, prosecuted, convicted and imprisoned. Until such time as the Minister puts forward specific proposals to deal with the problem, the situation can only become worse.
Mr. McDowell: I do not agree with that. Ireland is one of the safest countries in the world. If one examines the figures I gave, the number of people who died last year as a result of homicides - involving either manslaughter and murder - was 45. That is one of the lowest figures in ten years, despite the fact that the population increased dramatically in that time. We must be clear on that.
Mr. Costello: That is general homicide. My question relates to murder and firearms.
Mr. McDowell: I share the Deputy’s point of view on firearms to some extent but the figures to which he referred are not quite right. In 1998, for example, four murders involving firearms took place. That increased to 12 in 1999, stayed at 12 in 2000, decreased to nine in 2001, increased to ten in 2002, increased to 20 in 2003 and decreased to nine last year. This year the figure has already reached nine. It is not true to say that the situation has never been as bad as it is at present. There were four detections in respect of the ten murders committed in 2002, ten of the 20 murders in 2003 resulted in detections and in respect of the nine murders in 2004 there were six detections. It is not as black a picture in terms of detection as the Deputy suggests.
Mr. Costello: How many convictions were there? There was one conviction in each of those years.
Mr. McDowell: I agree with the Deputy that the phenomenon of paid——
Mr. Costello: What does detection mean?
An Ceann Comhairle: The time for this question has concluded.
Mr. McDowell: ——gunmen is extremely worrying. That is what Operation Anvil is all about. The Deputy asked if we should have bursts of activity such as that surrounding Operation Anvil or if we should we adopt a constant approach. I discussed this matter with the Garda Commissioner. His view is that special operations have merit. It is similar to playing a football match. One must say to the team at some stage that the next five minutes is crucial that points must be scored. One cannot simply state that overtime has nothing to do with it. It does have something to do with it.
Mr. Costello: I have one brief supplementary question.
An Ceann Comhairle: We have gone two and a half minutes over time on this question.
Mr. Costello: What happened to the amnesty the Minister proposed?
Mr. McDowell: When we get the Criminal Justice Bill and the firearms provisions through, I will deal with the amnesty issue. The sooner we get the Criminal Justice Bill through the better.
Mr. J. O’Keeffe: The Minister might set out the full list of proposals.
Mr. McDowell: I would like to do that.
Mr. J. O’Keeffe: I requested it a few months ago. It is important.
Mr. McDowell: I will write to the Deputies setting out everything that is planned in respect of that Bill.
Mr. J. O’Keeffe: That is a good idea so we will not have the debacle that we do with the current Bill.
An Ceann Comhairle: The Minister and the Deputy cannot have a friendly chat.
Mr. J. O’Keeffe: It is not exactly friendly.

jaycee · 24-06-2005 10:39am

Mr. J. O’Keeffe: The Minister might set out the full list of proposals.
Mr. McDowell: I would like to do that.

Now ..theres something I would like to see .
Might be the first definite indication of whats coming down the pipe.

Sparks · 24-06-2005 10:57am

Mr. McDowell: I will write to the Deputies setting out everything that is planned in respect of that Bill.

And hopefully it won't be a secret letter!

jaycee · 24-06-2005 11:06am

And hopefully it won't be a secret letter!

Or invisible ink.. :rolleyes:

Sparks · 25-06-2005 1:05pm

Some of the written answers are now up:

33. Mr. M. Higgins asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform his proposals for a gun amnesty; when it is likely to begin; the duration of the amnesty; the type of weapons it will cover; if any conditions will be attached; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [21447/05]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell): As the Deputy will be aware, in my speech on Second Stage of the Criminal Justice Bill 2004, I announced to the House my intention to introduce amendments to the Firearms Acts, in the course of Committee Stage of the Bill, which will establish a statutory basis for a period during which firearms can be surrendered to the Gárda Síochána. The proposed amendment will allow me, by order, to declare a period during which firearms, ammunition and offensive weapons may be handed in to Garda stations. My detailed proposals in this regard will be announced to the House in the normal way in due course.

Sounds like a bit of a climb-back from the answer he gave in oral questions

Sparks · 25-06-2005 1:08pm

And others:

38. Mr. Gilmore asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of cases of murder in which firearms were used in respect of each year from 1998 to date and to date in 2005; the number of such cases in which prosecutions for murder were initiated; the number of such cases in which convictions were secured; if he is satisfied with the level of detection and conviction in such cases; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [21443/05]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell): I am informed by the Garda authorities that the number of murders in which firearms were used in respect of each year from 1998 to 22 June 2005 are as set out in the table below.

I am informed by the Garda authorities that murders involving the use of firearms tend to have lower conviction rates than other murders. This is not unique to Ireland. The number of violent deaths. namely, murder and manslaughter, recorded in 2004 is 45, the lowest number recorded in ten years, despite our population increasing by 400,000 during the same period.

I am assured by the Garda Commissioner that the highest priority is given by the Garda Síochána to the investigation of murders and the detection of those responsible.

As the Deputy is aware, the Director of Public Prosecutions is statutorily independent in the performance of his functions and it would, therefore, be inappropriate for me to comment on his decisions. Furthermore, judges are independent in the exercise of their judicial functions and subject only to the Constitution and the law. It would therefore be inappropriate for me to comment on their decisions also.

As the Deputy will be also aware, the Criminal Justice Bill 2004, which is currently on Second Stage in the House, provides for a comprehensive package of anti-crime measures which will enhance the powers of the gardaí in the investigation and prosecution of offences.

In the context of the Criminal Justice Bill, 2004, I propose to bring forward, on Committee Stage of the Bill, a series of measures to increase sentences for the more serious range of firearms offences, including the introduction of mandatory minimum sentences in some cases. I am also introducing a new offence of illegally modifying a firearm, for example, sawing off a shotgun barrel, and the imposition of severe penalties for this offence. My full range of proposals will be announced in the House in the normal way in due course.

Murders involving Firearms 1998 to 22 June 2005
Year Recorded Detected Proceedings Commenced Convictions
1998 4 3 2 1
1999 12 7 7 5
2000 12 6 5 2
2001 9 4 2 2
2002 10 4 3 2
2003 20 10 4 1
*2004 9 6 5 1
*2005 9 1 1 0

*Figures for 2004 and 2005 are operational and liable to change.

(Question 164 was answered with the same word-for-word answer, and question 200 was answered with a paraphrased versions, and 205 with a localised version. Nothing new in any of them).

Sparks · 25-06-2005 1:10pm

For reloaders, the fireworks act might be of interest, given the similar amounts of "explosives" used in both cases, but it's also of interest for the rest of us to note the last sentence in the answer:

39. Ms O. Mitchell asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform further to Question Nos. 166 and 167 of 13 October 2004, if the promised legislation (details supplied) will be in place before 31 October 2005. [21326/05]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell): The control of the importation, manufacture, storage, sale and use of fireworks is provided for under the Explosives Act 1875. As the Deputy will be aware last February I published a fireworks policy consultation document and initiated a process of consultation with a view to bringing forward proposals for amending and strengthening the provisions in the 1875 Act. My Department has received a wide range of submissions in response to the consultation document which are currently being examined. However, it is already clear, from the submissions received to date, that, among the options for change outlined in the consultation document, there is a general welcome for my proposals to strengthen the enforcement provisions, in the 1875 Act.

I now propose to use the opportunity presented by the Criminal Justice Bill 2004, which is currently before the House, to make the necessary amendments to the 1875 Act. I propose to bring forward, on Committee Stage of that Bill, amendments which will provide for new offences governing the misuse of fireworks in public places and an offence of possession of illegally imported fireworks with intent to supply. I am also proposing to significantly increase penalties governing the illegal importation, sale and use of fireworks.

The Criminal Justice Bill is currently at second stage in the House and it is my intention to have it enacted as quickly as possible.

Sparks · 25-06-2005 1:19pm

This one's of interest peripherally - since we have no mechanism to appeal a superintendent's decision, and can only apply for a judicial review (which isn't an appeal, as an appeal can overturn the super's decision and a review cannot) to the high court, which can be an expensive procedure, would we be entitled to free legal aid in cases where it would be overly onerous on our pockets? If asylum seekers can avail of this, it would stand to reason that citizens could. Perhaps someone ought to be taking a look at this?

182. Mr. Connolly asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if asylum-seekers who apply for a judicial review of their case, having failed at all previous stages of their application for residence here, are entitled to free legal aid; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [21736/05]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell): As the Deputy may be aware, the Refugee Legal Service, RLS, is a specialised service within the Legal Aid Board providing confidential legal advice and assistance at all stages of the asylum process to persons applying for asylum in Ireland. The services provided by the RLS include assistance with regard to judicial review of recommendations of the Office of Refugee Applications Commissioner, ORAC ; decisions of the Refugee Appeals Tribunal, RAT, or with regard to leave to remain applications or deportation orders.

The Legal Aid Board, including the RLS, provides services in accordance with the Civil Legal Aid Act1995 and the regulations made thereunder. Any applications for legal aid, including those by asylum seekers, must satisfy both the financial and merits criteria set out in this legislation. The merits criteria relate to the prospects for success of the case. These include the following requirements: that the proceedings are such that a reasonably prudent person would be likely to seek such services at their own expense; that a solicitor or barrister acting reasonably would be likely to advise him or her to obtain such services at their own expense; that there are reasonable grounds in law for instituting proceedings; that the applicant is reasonably likely to be successful; that the proceedings represent the only appropriate remedy; and that it is otherwise reasonable to grant a certificate having regard to all the circumstances of the case.

Any person applying to the RLS for service is also subject to the financial eligibility criteria and payment of the appropriate financial contribution, which is as follows: an advice fee, currently a minimum of €6, payable by all applicants and an additional aid fee, currently a minimum of €29, payable by those in receipt of legal aid, that is, proceedings before a court or the Refugee Appeals Tribunal. The aid fee may be waived but there is no provision to waive the €6 advice fee. Applicants may register with the RLS at any stage of the asylum process - initial application, appeal stage and post asylum - with regard to matters such as applications for humanitarian leave to remain.

Sparks · 25-06-2005 1:22pm

This will be of interest to those clubs who have junior members and who know what a bowel-loosening nightmare the Ethics for Children in Sport arrangements are (and what an enormous personal risk the accompanying legislation poses for whomever is brave enough to volunteer to be the Childrens Officer!):

185. Aengus Ó Snodaigh asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if his attention has been drawn to the fact that there are now unvetted staff working in child care posts in the South Western Area Health Board area due to the fact that the board’s child care directorate will no longer refer employees that are not directly employed and funded by an ADM staffing grant, that is, community employment child care workers, to the Garda vetting unit, and that this has made it impossible to obtain Garda clearance for community employment child care workers, due to the fact that this is a requirement of staffing grants under ADM Limited contracts, and due to the fact that FÁS is refusing to get involved and the Garda vetting unit will not deal directly with an employer; and the action he will take to resolve this matter, including communication with his counterparts in other Departments. [21780/05]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell): I would the Deputy to my reply to Questions Nos. 8 and 43 of today’s date. The Garda central vetting unit, GCVU, carries out criminal record vetting in respect of, inter alia, prospective full-time employees of the Health Service Executive and in certain agencies funded by the executive, as well as in respect of prospective child care workers on equal opportunities childcare schemes funded by my Department. The unit currently deals with approximately 100,000 vetting applications per annum. Although the groups referred to by the Deputy cannot currently avail of this vetting regime, these will be covered by a planned phased extension of Garda vetting arrangements to all relevant sectors and groups. I am pleased to state that this extension will commence later this year, as soon as the necessary practical arrangements are in place, and public announcements will occur in this regard in due course.

Sparks · 27-06-2005 11:25pm

*617. To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform further to Parliamentary Question Nos. 796 of 26 January 2005 and 240 of 23 March 2005, if the pistols and revolvers stolen in 2002, 2003 and 2004 were legally held by the Gardai or the Defence Forces at the time they were stolen as no private person during these years could legally hold such firearms; the number of other stolen firearms in 2002, 2003 and 2004 which were legally held by members of An Garda Siochana or the Defence Forces; and if he will make a statement on the matter. Emmet Stagg. [22697/05]

796 was this one from earlier in this thread:

796. Mr. J. O’Keeffe asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of prosecutions in recent years under the firearms legislation for not having a licence or other breaches of legislation. [2055/05]

And 240 was the followup:

240. Mr. J. O’Keeffe asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform when the answer to Question No. 798 of 26 January 2005 will be available. [9580/05]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell): I regret the information the Deputy requested in Question No. 798 for written answer on 26 January 2005 was not available at that time. The information requested is outlined in a table which is being made available to the Deputy. The table shows the number of cases reported to the Garda Síochána for 2002, 2003 and 2004 by division and indicates where a firearm or firearms were stolen and their type.

Sparks · 01-07-2005 2:56pm

From Wednesday (29/6):

246. Mr. Naughten asked the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism the steps he has taken to ensure that his Department complies with the decisions of the High Court of 6 March 2002 and of the Supreme Court of 16 July 2003 that any ministerial order having the effect of creating an indictable offence is ultra vires; if this decision has been upheld by his Department; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23131/05]

Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. O’Donoghue): The question refers to the High Court decision of 6 March 2002 and Supreme Court decision of 16 July 2003, and while the name of the case was not included in the question it would appear that the Deputy is referring to the decision in the case of Vincent Browne v the Attorney General. The Supreme Court in this case decided that an EC regulation could only be transposed by regulations under a provision of an Act of the Oireachtas, which specifically allows for the transposition of an EC regulation.

The parameters of the decision in the Browne case were considered by the Supreme Court in the subsequent case of Thomas Kennedy v the Attorney General, the Minister for the Marine and Natural Resources. The Supreme Court in its decision in that case of 31 May 2005 clarified the limits of its earlier decision in the Browne case and decided that EU policy can only be implemented by regulations made under an Act of the Oireachtas where the Act specifically allows for the implementation of EU policy by regulations. The Attorney General will shortly advise the Government on action to be taken to address the issues raised in these cases.

It'll be interesting to see how that gets applied to EU firearms legislation. It was asked of the DoJ as well:

336. Mr. Naughten asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the steps he has taken to ensure that his Department complies with the decisions of the High Court of 6 March 2002 and of the Supreme Court of 16 July 2003 that any ministerial order having the effect of creating an indictable offence is ultra vires; if this decision has been upheld by his Department; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23137/05]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell): The Office of the Attorney General is always consulted by my Department in the context of preparation of legislation or indeed in assessing whether legislation is required. Advice is also sought and provided in relation to the terms of EU and international agreements, framework decisions and bilateral agreements in relation to mutual assistance. In so far as this particular case is concerned, I understand that the Attorney General will shortly be advising the Government on the action to be taken to address the issues raised in this and a more recent related case.

Sparks · 01-07-2005 2:58pm

A statistics question:

332. Mr. Stagg asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if it is possible for any Minister to state the exact number of firearms licences that were issued by the State in the years 2000 to 2004, inclusive, under section 22(9) of the Wildlife Act 1976; the reason there is difficulty accessing the information; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23323/05]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell): Section 22(9) provides that the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government may grant a licence to a person to hunt, capture or humanely kill a protected wild bird of a species specified in the licence.

In so far as the granting of licences for hunting is concerned, I presume the Deputy’s question refers to section 29 of the Wildlife Act 1976, as amended, which provides for the granting of licences to hunt exempted wild mammals and protected birds.

Records relating to such licences were not fully computerised until 2003 and the attached table outlines the figures for firearm certificates with endorsement under section 29 of the Wildlife Act in those years. Firearms certificates, as the Deputy is aware, are granted annually and the number of firearm certificates endorsed in 2000, 2001, and 2002 would be of a similar order to those in 2003 and 2004.
Firearm certificates with endorsement
2003 2004
95,108 98,841

Sparks · 04-07-2005 10:51pm

One for pretty much every sports club out there to put on it's to-do list for the next few months:

328. Mr. Kehoe asked the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism when applications will be accepted for the new round of national lottery funding; the types of applications that will be accepted; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23635/05]

Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism (Mr. O’Donoghue): The national lottery-funded sports capital programme, which is administered by my Department, allocates funding to sporting and community organisations at local, regional and national level throughout the country. The programme is advertised on an annual basis. Applications for funding under the 2005 programme were invited through advertisements in the press on 5 and 6 December 2004. The closing date for receipt of applications was 4 February 2005. All of the 1,362 applications received before that deadline are currently being evaluated against the programme’s assessment criteria, which are outlined in the guidelines, terms and conditions of the programme.

I intend to announce the grant allocations for the programme as soon as possible after the assessment process has been completed and to announce details of and invite applications to the 2006 sports capital programme before the end of this year. The guidelines, terms and conditions for the next programme have yet to be decided but are likely to be generally similar to those used for the 2005 programme. Consideration has been given to applications submitted by or on behalf of voluntary and community organisations, including sports clubs, in certain circumstances, schools, colleges and local authorities and national governing bodies of sport and third level education institutions, where it is evident that the proposed facility will contribute to the regional and-or national sporting infrastructure.

Applications from schools and colleges must be made jointly with local sports clubs or community groups and must provide for significant levels of usage by the local community during periods when the facilities are not being used by the school itself, at least 30 hours per week throughout the year, and demonstrate that the facilities concerned will meet an identified deficiency in that locality, as formally agreed with other local groups and-or the local authority. Projects must be directly related to the provision of sport and recreation facilities and be of a capital nature, which, for the purpose of the programme, is defined as expenditure on the improvement or construction of an asset and includes any costs directly incurred in this process and purchase of permanently based sports equipment, for instance, it is securely housed and will remain in use for five years or more. The programme does not assist in the purchase of sites, premises or personal equipment such as sports kits, gloves, shoes, boots, personal protective clothing, etc.

Sparks · 04-07-2005 11:02pm

For those clubs with children's officers:

501. Mr. English asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform further to Questions Nos. 8 and 43 of 23 June 2005, the number of times and the frequency with which the implementation group meets; when the Garda vetting will be expanded to include youth and community workers both paid and non-paid; if he will provide information regarding arrangements in operation for the exchange of information with the United Kingdom; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23699/05]

502. Mr. English asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform further to Parliamentary Question Nos. 8 and 43 of 23 June 2005, if there are measures in place to vet leaders, organisers and coaches that are running summer camps and sports camps for children ranging from five to 18 years in age by the Garda central vetting unit; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23700/05]

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell): I propose to takes Questions Nos. 501 and 502 together.

The implementation group on Garda vetting, which is chaired by the Garda authorities, has met on six occasions to date since its first meeting in November 2004, with an average frequency of approximately one meeting every five weeks.

Regarding the exchange of information, I am informed by the Garda authorities that reciprocal arrangements are in place to facilitate direct contacts between the Garda Síochána and the police services of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

As previously advised, a phased extension of the current vetting arrangements to relevant sectors and groups involving the substantial, unsupervised access to children and vulnerable adults will take place, including to the kinds of client groups identified by the Deputy. It is not possible to provide precise dates for this phased extension but work within the implementation group is progressing apace in this regard.

Sparks · 28-09-2005 8:43am

Well, the Dail resumes today, and the following firearms-related questions are up for answering:

*945. To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of submissions been made to this Department, which were sought regarding Section 30 of the Criminal Justice Bill 2004; if these have been presented to the Da´ il Select Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women’s Rights for consideration as part of the committee stage of the Criminal Justice Bill 2004; if these submissions will be made public; and if he will make a statement on the matter. — Trevor Sargent. [24763/05]

*980. To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number, type and make of firearms seized by the Gardaı´ to date in 2005. — Tony Gregory. [25155/05]

The former's more directly related to us than the latter, of course, but the latter would show that legally-held firearms being stolen and used in crime are a tiny minority of the firearms being used in crime today.

jaycee · 28-09-2005 9:21am

the latter would show that legally-held firearms being stolen and used in crime are a tiny minority of the firearms being used in crime today.

'fraid not.. unfortunately It will only show the numbers,types ..etc seized..
Not whether they were previously legally held, and the proportion thereof...

Like a lot of Dáil questions, it isn't specific enough to do us any good..
but creates an opportunity for "antis" to gasp in horror at the lack of gun control.

Sparks · 28-09-2005 9:45am

jaycee wrote:

'fraid not.. unfortunately It will only show the numbers,types ..etc seized..
Not whether they were previously legally held, and the proportion thereof...

Ah, but how many AK-47s have been licensed so far this year?

civdef · 28-09-2005 9:49am

Some of the things we've heard this last year (Glock 18 anyone? :P ) you can't tell anymore....

jaycee · 28-09-2005 10:10am

How hard would it be to ask..

"How many stolen ,previously legally licenced firearms,have been used in the commission of a crime; and how many of those have been recovered by Gardaí ."

Sparks · 28-09-2005 10:23am

To ask JC, not too hard; see earlier posts in this thread, it's been asked. Now getting it answered, that's another tale

jaycee · 28-09-2005 10:33am

Sorry ..forgot that !

getting it answered, that's another tale

Ain't that the truth..! :rolleyes:

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

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